Part 2: This is an opinion for those who feel conflicted. You have free will

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

mod note: this thread was split from a previous discussion. Part 1 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338412.0

How have you expressed your appreciation for her improvement?
Best,FF

I suppose things are just a bit tense at the moment with everything that has gone on and my parents making the situation for me worse by not wanting to talk about it or even blaming me for suggesting it. I feel like i'm the only one trying to sort something out at the moment and it's a big burden to carry for one person.

[Jareth89]

mod note: this thread was split from a previous discussion. Part 1 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338412.0

How have you expressed your appreciation for her improvement?
Best,FF

I suppose things are just a bit tense at the moment with everything that has gone on and my parents making the situation for me worse by not wanting to talk about it or even blaming me for suggesting it. I feel like i'm the only one trying to sort something out at the moment and it's a big burden to carry for one person.

[Notwendy]

I understand your situation. I've been the designated scapegoat in the family for not going along with the "family illusion". I grew up with someone who seems to have similar behaviors as your SIL. She has also painted me black to her family and to my father. She has done some hurtful things. I know what it feels like to be alone with this and have the rest of your family aligned in what seems to be against you.

I once perceived my father very much like you perceive your brother. Someone is doing this to him. It's terrible and I need to do something about this for him. I thought he needed to stand up to her and also defend me from her abuse and I assumed that telling him the truth about my mother would wake him up to the big picture and he'd do something.

After I saw the results of doing just this, doing just what you want to do for your brother, I realized I had a lot to learn. It wasn't to learn about how to walk on eggshells and tip toe around my mother, or to join the family members in their pretending not to see, and enabling her. It was to learn about these dynamics in a whole family.

When there is a disordered person in the family, the entire family relates to each other in a disordered fashion. It somehow keeps the family in balance. If one person doesn't go along with it, it then creates discomfort for the rest of the family members. They react in predictable ways. One is to try to enlist the person back into the pattern. When that doesn't happen, they may then separate themselves from the person.

This is very tough to deal with. Just like being in a relationship with someone with BPD requires one have awareness of the situation, (called radical acceptance- this doesn't mean its acceptable but that one is aware of what they can change and what they can't).

We don't have the power to change another person. If I could, I would have made my father do what I wanted him to do, and I could not do it. If he didn't "defend" me with my mother, as you think your brother should do - then I had to learn the best way to not let my mother's behavior upset me- while still relating to her. The other option would be to cut contact with your SIL but then, you would lose contact with your brother.

Your brother needs to come to his own decision.

Maybe you can do what you want to do better than I can. But I have a sense of what you are going through and you are not alone here. People may be challenging your perspective but they are trying to reach out to you and help.

[Fian]

I would like to give a different perspective here.  As I understand the OP, his brother's marriage is hurting the extended family, and he believes it is due to weakness that his brother remains in the marriage.  If his brother was stronger, he would take the choice that stops the hurt, and exit the marriage.

For me personally, I take very seriously the oath "until death do us part."  It doesn't matter if the marriage causes you pain, or it damages your family relationships, the marriage comes first.  When you approach marriage with the calculation of how much benefit you are getting out of it, divorce is probably in your future.  I know in my own personal marriage, it was unhappy, and we were getting pretty close to despising each other.  Divorce seemed like an attractive option, especially to my wife.  But I stuck to it, because that was the commitment that I made.  Today, the marriage is much improved, although that doesn't mean that there isn't some dissatisfaction on both sides.  But we would never have gotten to this point were it not for the oath that we took on our wedding day.  It took strength on both our sides, to push through the pain to get to a better result.

[Still Here]

On the issue of strength - I only know you through this message board, and I only know your brother second hand, through you on this message board - but IMO there are different kinds of strength at play when there is a bpd spouse in the picture.

1) There is the strength it takes to leave a relationship which while dysfunctional is one that someone like your brother may be really attached to.

2) There is the strength needed to live day to day with a bpd spouse, having no insight or plan of action.  Just hanging on, hoping things will get better.

3) There is the strength needed to transition into a caretaker.  To consciously decide that I am am going to be with this person, I am going to help this person, and I am going to try to help this person ameliorate the effects their actions have on me and others.

And finally 4) there is the strength needed to be an effective partner to the bpd.  To protect yourself, to draw proper boundaries, while conducting yourself in a way that diffuses the behavior to the extent possible.

I'm new to this group.  But I entered at 2.  I'm now at 3.  I'm hoping to get to 4.  I have found some amazing and strong role models on this message board who seem to be at 4 and are still here helping us 2-3s out.  Your thread began by talking about free will.  I think that's right.  I don't know where your B falls on this little scale I have just laid out, but I know that we can only do so much to influence the decisions of the people we care about.  I have siblings.  I have one in particular who has accepted the choice I've made and is there for me when I need to vent.  I know I am safe talking to him when I need to.  He means everything to me.  I know I'm kind of all over the place here, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that I am sorry for the situation you find yourself in, I'm sorry your family is getting mixed up because of it.  But I don't think it's an issue of strength.  Like you said, it's a issue of free will.  You'r bother's free will and your own.

[WitzEndWife]

I want to offer the perspective here that most people in toxic, abusive relationships have some form of PTSD, which has been shown to create neurological changes in the brain. In the case of abusive relationships with NPDs or BPDs, you often have an effect of "punishment vs. reward" and trauma bonding, which tend to mimic a sort of addiction pattern. With BPD, you start out with love bombing and a great deal of "reward" behavior, but gradually the rewards get scarcer and scarcer, and the punishments get greater and greater, as the person with BPD becomes more controlling. The other person in the realtionship, often codependent, strives for the reward and works hard to avoid the punishment. As the reward behavior becomes more scarce, it also becomes more valuable, and the punishment behavior becomes more normalized (i.e. the "status quo"). The person in this relationship does not even realize that their world view is as warped as it is, plus they are neurologically habituated ("addicted") to the patterns in this relationship.

I would take a minute to consider that "nutting up" is much easier said than done here, and it is much like forcing an alcoholic or drug addict to go cold turkey (not the same degree of physical addiction, mind you, but the neurological patterns are similar). Your brother might really love his FOO, but he's ensnared in this push-pull, controlling web that his BPD wife has created and he likely isn't neurologically able to see a way out. I would suggest that, instead of encouraging him to leave, encourage him to get therapy and work on himself, be a shoulder for him to lean on if he needs it. Getting out, if that's what he wants to do, will be the fight of his life. But that starts with working on his own fear, obligation, and guilt, and working himself out of her web of control.

I'm working on this myself with my uBPDh. I logically know that I need to leave, and I realize that I absolutely have the agency to do so, but my codependency has me frozen in place. It takes a while to figure out how to take your own agency back and not feel guilty for being a normal human being. However, I will tell you that I've distanced myself from people who judged me from the outside. "Why don't you just leave?" isn't helpful to me. Obviously I know that's what I need to do, and if it were that easy, I would have done so. My family used to do that to me until I educated them about what I was going through. They now support me and we have great communication. When my husband starts in on talking badly about them, I don't respond, or I leave the room. It sounds like your brother needs to work on himself and learn to set boundaries with his BPD wife. That in itself requires a lot of fortitude and bravery. He can do it, but he needs family support and understanding to do so.

[Jareth89]

Stillhere, Witsendwife...I don't want to get into a debate with this, but your partners are defective in ways you can't fix. You can choose a healthy person instead. Go out and tackle some of life's bigger problems, your partner shouldn't be one of them. You are trying to fix someone who doesn't want to be fixed, it's not your problem. The person you were attracted to in the beginning was a mirage...he/she is really someone else and it's not pretty. I've been around these bpd people and interacted with them, they are utterly dysfunctional, socially inept and unfortunately it makes them unlikable to be around. Just facts. My brother knows something is wrong with his wife (and probably her parents), that my family doesn't like it and he (and we) are losing respect for her. In my brother's case, he has the inability to make tough decisions, i've seen him be incredibly weak to the point of not being in possession of his own mind which is pathetic. It's a general weakness of the mind and yes this woman is toxic and I don't really want a relationship with her. She is a deception and I think she knows it.

[Cat Familiar]

Being a twin, you may have a closer relationship with your brother than most people do with their siblings. How has that manifested in participation in choice of romantic partners? What would you think if he found your mate unsuitable?

You say your brother has an "inability to make tough decisions," is "incredibly weak to the point of not being in possession of his own mind which is pathetic." How would he feel knowing you think these things of him?

[formflier]

I feel like i'm the only one trying to sort something out at the moment and it's a big burden to carry for one person.

Is it an appropriate burden? 

Is it your job to sort things out for other people (which is what I believe we are discussing..right?)

What choice do you have in this matter?  I ask in this way because you 100% control your choices and you have 0% control over the choices of others. 

Sometimes we become frustrated when others make choices we would not make or don't approve of.

A "boundaried way of thinking will lead people to focus on their own choices.

Best,

FF

[Jareth89]

Being a twin, you may have a closer relationship with your brother than most people do with their siblings. How has that manifested in participation in choice of romantic partners? What would you think if he found your mate unsuitable?

You say your brother has an "inability to make tough decisions," is "incredibly weak to the point of not being in possession of his own mind which is pathetic." How would he feel knowing you think these things of him?

Cat, according to my experience and others that I have dated (some time ago) who had siblings, it's totally normal for siblings to watch over each other, including romantic relationships we enter into. It's an instinctive and healthy function of the family, since your sibling relationships are the longest relationships of your life - your siblings know you extremely well by default. My brother has always commented on men I fancied and I was totally ok with that. If I thought he was wrong on something I would tell him. It's fine. Siblings want the best for each other.

What would I think if he found my mate unsuitable? Well...I guess it depends what level of unsuitable we are talking about here. If we are talking about a mate having a serious mental health disorder (untreated), then first off I would never entertain it myself, neither would my brother and neither would my parents. It wouldn't happen. In his case, just to make clear, it wasn't even obvious she had BPD traits in the beginning. Her behaviour has suddenly changed almost overnight - she is a different person completely. Her parents have also changed, it's like a domino effect with them. Just an observation. Personally I think she knows about her BPD and it's all a deception. I think her parents know, from what I have witnessed. Just for the record, I think that anyone who knows they have this, has an obligation to tell their date that they have it. However, my brother's wife has altered drastically post-marriage and post-child. Nobody saw that coming.

About my brother being 'incredibly weak to the point of not being in possession of his own mind'. Truth has a life of it's own. Nobody has to like hearing it. Well there are cases on here you can read about where the non-bpd partner becomes brainwashed and will repeat all kinds of nonsense in agreement with his wife, even though it's harmful or doesn't make sense...because the bpd is threatening that person. From what I read it's nothing new, but it's obviously disturbing for the family. Especially if the bpd wife if trying to turn one sibling against another with lies. But that's the f*d up world the bpd creates. It's not holy. My brother knows I love him, but that always means being truthful. Do you have siblings and are any of them unknowingly married to a pwBPD?

What would you think if he found your mate unsuitable?
I don't think anyone would advocate for a sibling to be in an abusive relationship.

I can't answer any more questions on 'why a sister should be worried if her sibling is in an abusive relationship with a mentally ill woman'...it just too obvious for me and others I am speaking to about this situation. Ask the men who came out of these abusive relationships, if you are looking for a raw perspective.

[Notwendy]

why a sister should be worried if her sibling is in an abusive relationship with a mentally ill woman'..

I understand your worry. I was worried for my father.

I think it is appalling that a spouse would interfere with their partner's relationships with their family members.

I was shocked to learn how often that happens.

[formflier]

You say your brother has an "inability to make tough decisions," is "incredibly weak to the point of not being in possession of his own mind which is pathetic." How would he feel knowing you think these things of him?

Can you take some time and address this question?

The goal of me asking is to get you to consider alternate points of view.

Best,

FF

[Jareth89]

why a sister should be worried if her sibling is in an abusive relationship with a mentally ill woman'..

I understand your worry. I was worried for my father.
I think it is appalling that a spouse would interfere with their partner's relationships with their family members.
I was shocked to learn how often that happens.

Thx NotWendy. And I just wanted to say that my bpd/trait sister-in-law is doing that (trying to separate a twin brother from his twin sister   ) in a family where we have already lost the elder brother to an illness when he was only 22...and she knows this! Now she's trying to cause constant drip-feed friction and separate the remaining siblings? She's insane. This really shows you the level of egocentric behaviour/zero empathy and the damage it can do to non-bpd's and their families. Adding to this exciting mixture are her parents, who know what she does, ignore it and act in tandem with their daughter to control my brother (basically ensure he doesn't think about getting away!). That's a controlling team of 3, not 1. So yeah, i'm not turning my back because that's a really big dragon to slay.

[Jareth89]

Don't get me wrong, knowing the origins of the condition I had sympathy. If she can get into therapy and sort herself out then fine. If that's not possible then it's much more complicated for everyone.

[Jareth89]

Don't get me wrong, knowing the origins of the condition I had sympathy. If she can get into therapy and sort herself out then fine. If that's not possible then it's much more complicated for everyone.

I'm even wondering if it would be a better scenario to talk it over with her parents and do it carefully so they know i'm not a threat. As harmful as all the behaviour has been and as badly as I have been affected (it really messed me up), I acknowledge that she is suffering and the natural option is to want to get someone better and be helped. This is the option I prefer actually. Nobody wants suffering. If that can't happen then the worry can't be taken away from me and it's just so much more complicated.

[Jareth89]

So it has to be someone with the least risk of rejecting the idea and who is a 'safe person' for the pwbpd - I would say the parents. My brother's on another planet at the moment.

[Notwendy]

As to her parents, maybe they'd be receptive but also maybe not.

The process of denial can be strong, very strong. Parents also love their children and may have a high tolerance level for the behaviors. They may also be enablers- they may have been enabling her for decades.

My BPD mother's family is very protective of her. Her parents are deceased, but the family won't admit there's anything wrong. She's already told them her side of the story: I am a difficult daughter. If I say anything, I play into that, they think I'm terrible for saying such horrible things about my mother.

I let this go a long time ago. I can't control other people's thinking.

The people on this board are not in denial. They are learning to not enable their partners. It's not an easy habit to change if you've been doing it for a while. They aren't trying to fix the person with BPD., ironically, they are trying to "fix" themselves- get better boundaries, stop enabling. The behaviors persist when they are being enabled. Sometimes not enabling and having better boundaries causes them to decrease. Sometimes not, but the members here are trying to work at their part in the  relationship before deciding they need to let go, or to stay.

[Red5]

The process of denial can be strong, very strong...

Most times, the family of origin (foo) will circle wagons.

What do we know about borderline... it’s rooted in trauma, most times if not everytime in my experience...it’s from childhood trauma.

Also, this phenomenon is almost always generational.

And dysfunctional families will try to “keep the family secret”, at all and any costs, they will guard it... and in-laws will be sacrificed, I’m dealing with something similar (scenario) in real time myself.

So talking to suspect foo about your Brother’s wife, and her suspected borderline and her behaviors... that’s not going to go well, of course I’m not in your circle of trust, I am reflecting upon my own life experiences... but I want to give you a warning about it, as I got shredded...

I would classify this in the same file as telling the borderline herself that “you are a cluster “B” borderline personality disorder”... and “you need therapy”... not a smart move.

Blood is always thicker, everytime.

As I’ve said, I’ve learned this the hard way myslef, yes, the denial and the keeping of the generational family dysfunction (secrets) is a hard nut to crack,

Tread easy Jareth89,

Kind Regards, Red5

[Jareth89]

NotWendy, Red, thanks for your insightful replies. What i'm just not certain about is whether her parents actually want to dominate and control my brother, or whether they are doing that because of recent frictions between me and sil and they feel a genuine threat. They might see me as someone who can break up their daughter's marriage with the bpd info. I don't know. Either way the behaviour is wrong, but it's more disturbing if they actually have a need/desire to dominate and control him. I haven't seen this behaviour from her parents around my brother in the past, but since the start of this year it's very obvious. If my sil behaviour is more intense then the parents respond in the same manner. If I can calm down the threat (me) then I should be able to minimise the controlling behaviour towards my brother, so at the moment i'm re-establishing friendliness with my sil first then see what the results of that are. I haven't been able to sleep at all lately.

[Notwendy]

Family dysfunction is intergenerational. Not every member of a family has BPD but when one member is disordered, the family members may compensate in other dysfunctional ways.

It's impossible to know the motives for why your SIL's parents do what they do. I think it's fair to say that parents in general are not objective about their kids and don't like to see them struggle. Emotionally stable parents manage this by behaving appropriately. Dysfunctional parents may have the same feelings but manage this in dysfunctional ways. They may see this as saving the marriage, not harming your brother.

I think you backing off and trying to get along as a positive thing. It isn't denial on your part, but maybe choosing how to best stay in touch with your brother.

[Jareth89]

Family dysfunction is intergenerational. Not every member of a family has BPD but when one member is disordered, the family members may compensate in other dysfunctional ways.

It's impossible to know the motives for why your SIL's parents do what they do. I think it's fair to say that parents in general are not objective about their kids and don't like to see them struggle. Emotionally stable parents manage this by behaving appropriately. Dysfunctional parents may have the same feelings but manage this in dysfunctional ways. They may see this as saving the marriage, not harming your brother.

I think you backing off and trying to get along as a positive thing. It isn't denial on your part, but maybe choosing how to best stay in touch with your brother.

Generally I agree, but no this is not an attempt to 'back off'. It's an attempt to observe the dynamics/behaviours while not providing any triggers. In other words 'optimal conditions'. However they see it (which can never be right because they are dysfunctional), it's still abuse. The last time I visited with my parents, at times they were passive aggressive towards me, snapped at me and drowned me out of conversation. I think they know about their daughter's condition, because last year they tried to cover up her bizarre behaviour with excuses, in which case the marriage is a deception. If I want to know how my sil really feels towards me, I just observe her parents. All her feelings/real thoughts are transmitted via her parents. My sil generally prefers to keep a poker face...it's all part of her game and she does deliberately deceive.

[Notwendy]

Maybe I should have said "appear to back off" but whatever your intent is, taking a step back to observe is probably a wise move.

It's frustrating to see how her parents react, but I think it is a common response for this situation.

In the case of suspected abuse of a legal adult, the adult has to be willing to verify this. You may be certain your brother is being brainwashed, but unless he is deemed incompetent in the legal sense, you are unable to intervene in this marriage.

[formflier]

  It's an attempt to observe the dynamics/behaviours while not providing any triggers.

[/b]

Is this really wise?

What does "not providing triggers" look like?

Best,

FF

[Jareth89]

Maybe I should have said "appear to back off" but whatever your intent is, taking a step back to observe is probably a wise move.

It's frustrating to see how her parents react, but I think it is a common response for this situation.

In the case of suspected abuse of a legal adult, the adult has to be willing to verify this. You may be certain your brother is being brainwashed, but unless he is deemed incompetent in the legal sense, you are unable to intervene in this marriage.

Notwendy, you watched your mother severely abuse your father towards the end of his life even when he was ill. I'm sure it was very painful for you to watch. Families have a duty to protect other family members from abuse and if they can find effective ways to 'intervene' or keep the abused person connected to the 'truth' then that's the humane action to take. Each family makes a decision on how they protect their family members. Why do you think she is afraid of me? Because I'm someone who isn't a doormat and can tell my brother the truth? I may not be able to intervene by law, but there are other ways. A counsellor acts in a similar way, to bring the client's attention to the fact that what he is experiencing is abuse and shouldn't be tolerated.

Formflier, all bpd's are different but for this one a trigger can constitute something as simple as being factually incorrect...my brother says 'she can never be wrong'. I don't fully understand your question when you say 'is this really wise'? My sister-in-law doesn't like me interacting with my brother. To elucidate one current problem I will quote a conversation I had with a man who's wife was bpd (now divorced). The situation is the same:

Q: How did she separate you from your family, what did she say to you and did she say why she didn't like your family?
A: There were probably lots of little tactics, but the one that probably got me the most was was getting angry and yelling at me for either saying the wrong thing to them or not speaking up when she felt they said the wrong thing. So I was always nervous to talk to them because I was always afraid that I'd say something and get into trouble for it later. So visits with them were tense, because I was always walking on eggshells.

Q:...when he comes to visit the house now (with her, not on his own), he doesn't talk to me freely, he looks nervous and hesitant when he talks to me
A: This is exactly what would happen to me. I dreaded calls to my mother. I hated being around them in front of my wife and even if she wasn't there I was going to get grilled on what I said, what they said and how I responded. I have now come to the opinion that abuse of loved ones is one of the worst forms of evil in the world. We are supposed to allow ourselves to be vulnerable to close people. For them to take advantage of it is horrible.

Also people who don't experience it or understand it will often support the abuser unknowingly or even passively by either not believing it or staying neutral. People who are told what is going on but decide they should be neutral because they don't know for sure it's abuse, are really just validating the abuser. The subtlety is what makes it so dangerous. She sees you as a threat because you could speak the truth to him.

[Wilkinson]

I understand you are really hurt by your brother.  My family was hurt too by my neglect of them because I turned to my uBPDw.  You mentioned several times that he is a grown man that can make his own decisions.  That is true, but let me offer a different perspective that is more along the lines of his.

First, emotional and verbal abuse is horrible, because the abuser can effectively make you feel like you are the crazy one.  It's like you're in a one member cult.  Your SIL works to control the narrative that goes into his head.  That is why he is not allowed to be there without her.  She needs to know what is said to him so she can twist it later.  That is why this situation is so tricky.  Plus, he's married to her.  Society and religion supports his decision to be loyal to his wife even if his family doesn't approve.  Does he attend church? 

One thing my wife does is always tell me what other people say.  "The pastor said it isn't biblical for you to side with your family over your own wife."  I don't know if those conversations ever happened, but I can't even count the times she brought in hearsay for evidence for her point. You sort of get brainwashed because she has the majority of time around his ear.  If her parents enable this, it only makes it harder. 

You sound very aggressive in fighting for your brother.  In the end, I'm not sure that will help.  I can tell you from experience that the best people she has are people who are somewhat close, but too distant to know what's going on.  Like people from a church small group, or couples that come over for dinner every once and a while, but not all that intimate.  The reason they are so dangerous to him is that they feel close enough that everyone feels like they know each other, but not so intimate that they know your SIL like you do.  So they are just more people influencing him that his wife is just fine and to be a good husband, he needs to be loyal to his wife and choose her if he has to make a choice.  You see, she is only a part of the problem.  I guarantee she has cultivated a large echo chamber to support her to influence him.  You aren't fighting for your bother against her, your up against her and her army and you won't win fighting.

When my family would get angry at me, it only validated the idea that I have to choose either my wife or my family.  I'll never be able to do both.  I'm not sure what they should have done, but I know what didn't work.  I don't know if this is a good idea or not, but I wonder if switching directions and instead try to be your SIL's friend and ally?  It will take a long time, but if you're her enemy, she will keep you from your brother the best she can.

In earlier threads people compared it to alcoholism.  I don't agree with that.  If I was an alcoholic, there is nothing redeemable to it.  I might like the high, but society doesn't support being drunk and irresponsible.  I might have friends that would, but I know I'd be doing something society frowns upon.  In your brother's case, he is sticking with his marriage.  Society praises people who persevere in tough times to stay with their spouse.  I think it's a good thing overall, but in abusive situations it is not good.  I'm sure he's stuck in a cycle thinking that he just needs to be better to not make her mad, that things are his fault. 

You know the old saying garbage in, garbage out?  Well your SIL has control of what goes into his head and she is orchestrating far more dumping of garbage in there from many sources that you are unaware of.  So trying to counteract it will be a losing battle for you.  I'd recommend spending more time educating yourself about it, look to professionals for help, and come to terms that you don't have complete control on IF you can fix this situation and definitely not on your time frame.  It could take years.

[Notwendy]

Notwendy, you watched your mother severely abuse your father towards the end of his life even when he was ill. I'm sure it was very painful for you to watch. Families have a duty to protect other family members from abuse and if they can find effective ways to 'intervene' or keep the abused person connected to the 'truth' then that's the humane action to take.

Yes, it was hard to watch and I agree with you. I will tell you exactly how it went.

First I talked to him about my mother and he got angry at me.

Then, since he was ill and under medical care, I spoke to his health care team about the situation. He got angry at me and told me to stop talking to them about it. I complied with his wishes.

Then, I called adult protective services to see if it was possible to look into elder abuse. Their reply: so long as he is in sound mind ( legally) he is capable of making his own choices, even if they were not decisions I thought were good ones. If he was not willing to agree with what was going on, they could not intervene. He was not willing to agree and he was legally in sound mind.

When he died, he was angry at me. BPD mom had read every e mail I sent him and listened in on our phone calls. I will warn you that whatever you say to anyone connected to your SIL they are likely to share with them. This happened here. After my father died, BPD mom painted me black to the people in her circle and told them to not speak to me. She also disowned me.

I am telling you this not to stop you from doing what you believe is your moral duty, but to let you know that the outcome of your efforts may be that your brother just gets angry at you and disconnects from you.

Could I have just stood by and observed without intervening, probably not. But my efforts didn't result in anyone "seeing the light" and getting help or counseling. Could I have tried to be helpful in a better way? Yes. I didn't know about the Karpman triangle, or had the tools on this board to learn how to interact more effectively with the disordered members of my family.

[Wilkinson]

I guess to add more, perpetrators of emotional abuse are masters at controlling the narrative.  The can do tricks like this.  Let's say there is a couple from their church they see every Sunday and a few times per month. They all have dinner together or see each other at community events.  That's close enough that you feel like you know the other couple, but you really don't know all the intimate details.  I bet they have 5 to 10 couple friends like this.

She can put on a good show in front of people like that and convince them she's a great wife.  Now all she has to do is complain about his family to them.  She starts telling them how horrible his family is to her, it's like they want to break up his marriage.  It's an easy story to believe.  She can paint you as possessive, or mean.  They don't know you.  They feel comfortable that they know her.  They are on her side, supporting her, validating her decisions to keep distance from you and her husband.  They offer their support of your SIL to your brother.  They become allies to her in telling him he needs to be loyal to his wife and support her if his family is trying to tear the marriage apart.  She will could have developed their whole community like this. 

Sometimes abusers go to their community and say the person they are abusing is acting crazy.  She might say something to their community like, "I'm afraid he is getting out of control and might accuse me of being abusive.  I don't know what I'll do.  I've always tried to be a good wife."  The person being abused finally gets brave and confides with people he thinks is close in the community and instead of support, they think, "Oh my gosh, she's right.  He has lost it and now accusing her of abuse.  That poor woman." 

I'm willing to bet she's cultivating her community to paint you as an evil, jealous twin.  She will report back to her community the things you do.  Heck, you could do nice things and she'll report it back to her community as something malicious.  They will believe her and be her allies in helping your brother feel YOU are the one that is being unreasonable and that it is his duty to stick to his wife and support his vows. 

This has been my experience and similar stories from a support group I attend.  I'd contact a domestic violence center in your area to see what they say.  Ask if you would be allowed to attend a support group and learn from others who have been in this situation.

I just get concerned because your aggressive tone that I'm picking up could really backfire for you.  You probably don't realize it, but the things you do to save your brother, might just be playing into some crafty method of hurting you. 

[Notwendy]

I just get concerned because your aggressive tone that I'm picking up could really backfire for you.  You probably don't realize it, but the things you do to save your brother, might just be playing into some crafty method of hurting you.


Exactly, my BPD mother does what you described very well. She can be extremely charming with acquaintances. Then she begins to enlist them to her point of view. She has told the people in her circle that I am the one with "issues" and that I am the problem in their relationship. They have no reason to not believe her. They don't know me at all. She also then advises them to not speak to me about this as it is confidential and she fears how I might react.

If I even tried to tell them anything about her, I have just played into this narrative.

[stolencrumbs]

I just want to second a lot of what Wilkinson has said about the dynamics that might be in play. I'll also add that this can happen even if there's not a community of people reinforcing it. My wife always framed things as a test of loyalty, and that taps into some pretty powerful cultural norms about marriage. Those thoughts definitely went through my head a lot. And my wife did frame my family as the crazy, controlling ones who were trying to manipulate me to get what they wanted. And then they'd do things that she could fit into that narrative. And I spent all of my time with her, and very little time with my family. Her framing was constant and hard to ignore. It is what got reinforced in my head.

Ultimately, my dad ended up having the biggest impact on me and how I saw things. My mom got fed up and became much more direct and open with what she thought I should do, and how she saw my marriage and my wife. She was right about a lot of things, but I didn't hear it. It just made me mad and made me want to not talk with her. I can probably count on one hand the number of times my dad called me himself in the 20+ years since I moved from my hometown. But in the last year, he started calling me instead of my mom. He didn't try to tell me what to do, or to get me to see things differently. He just told me how much they wanted to see me, and that they missed me, and that it sure would be nice if I could come down there for x, y, or z. Or that it'd mean a lot to him if I would do x, y, or z. At least for me, this was much more effective. I don't think he planned it as some kind of strategy. It's just the way he is, and I guess we're enough alike that he understood how he'd respond to the way my mom was talking to me, and so didn't want to do that. He didn't hide that I was hurting them with choices I was making, but he didn't tell me that. He showed me, and that helped me see it differently for myself. It took a long time. It sucks for everyone involved. I'm sorry that you, your family, and your brother are dealing with this. I don't have any great advice on what to do. Just wanted to share my experience. 

[Notwendy]

In earlier threads people compared it to alcoholism.  I don't agree with that.  If I was an alcoholic, there is nothing redeemable to it.  I might like the high, but society doesn't support being drunk and irresponsible.  

To clarify the alcohol addiction reference, I'm not speaking about being noble and staying with the marriage. I'm addressing the enabling aspect - enabling to the point of allowing harm to oneself and to their family members by cutting them off, and other behaviors that are harmful.

By comparison, drinking to excess is harmful to one's health, and to their family. The alcoholic knows this. Likely their family has pleaded with them to stop drinking. But the alcoholic feels out of control when it comes to choosing the alcohol- and they do choose it no matter who asks them not to. They may possibly change when they feel the effects of their choices.

It's one thing to be committed and loyal to a marriage, even a difficult one. But when a person appeases, enables to the point of allowing harm to themselves and others, I think it's a bigger issue.

Often it seems the focus is on the pwBPD and their behaviors, but their partners are often participants in the dysfunction. This is the part that the partner can work on, whether or not they stay in the marriage.

Sometimes telling the partner to stop the enabling behaviors is about as effective as pleading with an alcoholic to stop drinking. The person has to come to the point of deciding themselves to do that.

[formflier]

Sometimes telling the partner to stop the enabling behaviors is about as effective as pleading with an alcoholic to stop drinking. The person has to come to the point of deciding themselves to do that.

And...that "telling" or "pleading" is often LESS effective than letting them come to this on their own.

Said another way...the pleading "prolongs" the period of time or "contributes" to extending the period of time where the person is dysfunctional.

I know that can be hard to wrap your head around but many things that are effective in dealing with pwBPD are counterintuitive.  Many of us figure this out the hard way (reference stories where members "confront" and are painted black).

Our goal is to help you be more EFFECTIVE in helping your brother.

What do you think of this?

Best,

FF