Silent treatment vs. abandonment

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

"Pretty good catch-all, huh?"

Hi Zippy... .I figure that since he had to work so hard to find things to be upset about means I was a pretty good partner.  Finding offense in the most innocuous situations is a real talent; one must really have a fear of exposure to have such a sensitive nose to sniff out potential 'dangers', looking to be rejected.

Was it *looking* to be rejected or *hoping* to be rejected?  You know how they always like to be right, even if they must make their own self sabatoging prophesies of "what you really meant when you said".  I hated that game!

[crushed-not-broken]

"Pretty good catch-all, huh?"

Hi Zippy... .I figure that since he had to work so hard to find things to be upset about means I was a pretty good partner.  Finding offense in the most innocuous situations is a real talent; one must really have a fear of exposure to have such a sensitive nose to sniff out potential 'dangers', looking to be rejected.

Was it *looking* to be rejected or *hoping* to be rejected?  You know how they always like to be right, even if they must make their own self sabatoging prophesies of "what you really meant when you said".  I hated that game!

[breached]

My BPDw has explained to me in the past that the silent treatment she gives me is totally justified because it's how she feels, and her feelings are real and justified.  If she were to not give me the silent treatment, she would be living a lie because she would be denying her feelings and just living out the actions that I want her to... .  So, my asking her not to give me the silent treatment is indicitive of me being controlling and trying to make her act the way I want her to.

I suppose this makes sense in her world where my feelings and a quarter will buy you a nice hot cup of jack squat.

[justwrecked]

Absolutely, I think it's a double edged sword; when he isolates, it's to both punish me through deprivation, but also to punish himself with complete immersion into his psychological pain, where he can swim in his misery alone like he has his whole life.

This place is amazing.  Right after I see one comment that I feel hits so close to home, and is so insightful - I see another, and another, and another... .

It's so hard for me to understand that when these dark episodes start, coming from nowhere and for seemingly nothing - it's like they're choosing unhappiness over happiness.  Knowingly?  Instinctively?  Helplessly?

[Ace]

Shift,

For me, learning to almost live independently seems to help.  I let my wife pout, storm off, stomp her feet, etc... .like a child.  I have to be the stable one otherwise things get ludicrous in our house, and that is no place for our kids.  It is bad enough, but if I start chasing her and trying to get her to talk... .only leads to her fighting harder.  I think the reason is she can't really explain her anger.  She feels it, but can't make sense of it, at least rationally.  The more I push the more she has to face the fact that her feelings may be wrong.  The sad part is I am finding the relationship is not at all what I envisioned for a marriage.  Before with the ups and downs rollercoaster, at least the ups gave me the hope that things were how I wanted them to be.  Unfortunately the downs would inevitably come.  Now being the stable one and not boarding the rollercoaster, I am finding the lack of the downs is giving me back my life, but the lack of the ups seems to kill the intimacy in the relationship.  I have learned to live with my wife's disorder and my boundaries were the key to that, but all the behaviors that are just plain mean, such as the silent treatment, cause me to question whether or not it is worth it in the hopes she will ever get help.  The lack of ups in combination with her behavior causes me to grow further from her.  I feel it is just a matter of time. 

Crushed,

I wouldn't say I envision the wort, more like look at my fear, my wife leaving, in the context of reality.  Reality being she doesn't treat me very well a lot of the time. 

Also, I think the same way.  Some of the "faults" my wife comes up with are so trivial that I can't help but think I am not such a bad guy after all.  Sometimes it takes a friend of hers to tell her she should appreciate me for her to appreciate me.  Most of her friends and family just enable her though.  Telling her what they think she wants to hear, maybe they are just afraid of speaking out.   

[Ace]

Shift,

Selfishness seems to be a common denominator in BPD's, not to say that they are ALWAYS selfish.  My wife can be very giving, but when she is dysregulated in relation to someone, she is sometimes selfish to the point where it seems almost spiteful.

I guess you could think about it in the context of the disorder.  They judge you on your last action, which they may "percieve" as you being selfish/mean/hurtful/uncaring etc... .  If someone acted mean/selfish, hurtful/uncaring/etc... .to you, you might not really care how they felt either.  Now given the magnifier effect on emotions that BPD seems to have, I would say it isn't hard to beleive that my wife will act the way she does for what may seem like no reason to me. Now understanding why and being able or willing to live with it are two totally different things.   

Of course, the degree to how they feel is so magnified that we probably couldn't comprehend the amount of anger they feel, so it is still   

[crushed-not-broken]

"The lack of ups in combination with her behavior causes me to grow further from her.  I feel it is just a matter of time."   Quote from Ace.

Hi Ace,

This was what was happening with me and my husband... .with every rage, I told him that these events were causing me to lack affection for him and were putting distance between us.

Giving voice to this kicked into overdrive the abandonment fear which fueled his impulsiveness and shortly after my speaking this to him, he raged and left for good.  It is a mistake to voice this to them, it is a BPD trigger.  I just wanted to give you the heads-up with the hope you have not made the mistake of telling her.  Try to keep this emotion under wraps, if you desire to hold the relationship together.

Best wishes to you and strength for the journey. CNB.

[educatedguy]

crushed,

we are not living together at the moment, in fact divorce seemed inevitable... .however a new development has occurred and my stbxBPDw seems to have entered into DBT, which makes her currently still my BPDw.  So we are kind of touch and go at the present.

Actually, I was fortunate enough to experience another bout of the silent treatment over the last four days (its still going) and just as you indicated, she sure did use that jedi BPD mind trick.  

On Saturday I asked the BPDw to go to the local mall with me.  She was having some complexion/blemish issues that day (one very small pimple), so she declined, stating she wasn't going anywhere looking "like this."  I try to reassure her that it was unnoticeable, which it was, but she pushed hard to shut me up about it.  At this point I became kinda irritated.  It was a culmination of some things and I probably should have ended it there... .but... .I kindly explained that this is one of those moments when her self applied rules conflict with the rules she applies to me.  Basically, any time I decline to do something with her or go somewhere she becomes enraged, irritated, angry and claims I don't love her, like to be in public with her, etc., but I'm just supposed to shut up and like it when she does the same thing.  Typical BPD trait.

She immediately denied having different standards for herself, got angry, then raged, and then went into the silent treatment.  Before I left, I said that I'd like to talk about this issue when we were both less agitated, but she just snubbed her nose and ignored me.

Anyhow, when i come home its complete silent rage.  She's slamming doors, making loud noise, giving me dirty looks, the whole nine.  I disengage and refuse to participate for the next three days, which brings me to Tuesday.  Tuesday I go to school and the following text exchange occurred, verbatim.  At this point I was not trying to validate, simply just tired of it all and refusing to participate in the manipulation.  She basically refused to apologize until I did.

her: I'm not going to talk about double standards until you admit you shouldn't have reacted like that.  

Me: Its unfortunate you must condition your willingness to discuss an issue with me upon my submission.  You are either interested in discussing the issue or you are not.  This is not a gray area.

her:  This entire thing started because you flipped out on me.

me:  Is it your position that me addressing my emotional needs, i.e. pointing out a double standard, is flipping out on you?

her:  All i want is recognition that you got mad for no reason before I start admitting how awful a person I am all the time.

me:  Is it your position that me addressing my emotional needs, i.e. pointing out a double standard, is flipping out on you and equates to calling you a horrible person?

her:  yes.  I hate you.  I want a divorce. I want to be single.

me:  It's unfortunate you feel you must deal with this problem in that manner.  :)o what makes you happy.  

So, as it currently stands.  I am a bad person because I have had it with the standards and rules she applies to me, but refuses to live by herself, therefore she must leave me (I hate you.  I want a divorce.) in order to save herself and make me feel the pain.  She is still working the silent treatment and I still refuse to engage, so I'm sure she'll ramp up the rage as I continue not to participate.  

BPD is a hell of a disorder.

[crushed-not-broken]

Ed-guy,

Boy, your texted conversation has that familiar ring to it.  I have had many similar; I hear my voice in your words.  You sound reasonable and your points valid, but you are playing to a no-win situation.  Among the many dysfunctional BPD traits, this text reveals the whole 9 yards, blaming, using all or nothing statements, projection and finally... .the statement of an ultimatium---all just in a few sentences. 

Yee-gads, this is some disorder!

You've mentioned early in your post that she will be participating in DBT therapy.  She must see that she has a problem and is (at least at this point) willing to walk it through and find some help.  This is huge... .you are in a better position than alot of us on these boards who SOs are still in denial and think we are the problem.  I understand you are tired, it is exhausting to have these types of conversations, it's a lot like sword fighting.  The reasonable route, using logic and trying to find an equitable solution would work in most relationships, but we forget the pwBPD do not think like we do and so the sound points we make fall flat.  Trying to track a decent conversation w a pwBPD is like trying to nail the proverbial jello to the wall.

You two are living apart now, maybe that will help you to rest up and breathe freer.  Take heart she is willing to do DBT and take it a day at a time.  I know it is cliche to say but it is all you can do, take small steps and hold back expectations.  You've probably considered that it is important that you seek some sort of routine contact... .date night and such.  You do not want to put so much time apart that your wife loses the object constancy (that's YOU!).  This is a real phenomena and it factored into the failure of my relationship.  Hang in there, there are good things going on, too.  Try to be grateful for the small things!

[Ace]

Educated,

The progression of that conversation gave me goosebumps.  Wow!  I almost had a ptsd episode.    I have had similar conversations many many times.  It is crazy how they increase the emotional ante when you remain calm when the reaction they are looking for from you would be similar to their reaction, uncontrolled.  The last line of your wife I have heard many many times.  It is the ultimate threat.  For me, I used to beleive my wife, now I take threats like that with a grain of salt.  Not to say she will never FULLY follow through with it, just that I will no longer be held emotionally hostage.  Make no mistake about it, threats like that are used to inflict pain.  She was trying to hurt you, probably because she herself feels hurt. 

Crushed,

There is a part of me that actually wants to get to the point where we are so far apart emotionally that leaving is the only option.  I love my wife, but at the same time understand what the chances are of even a partial recovery from this disorder, let alone having a somewhat "normal" relationship.  Right now, I still have hope.  Who knows what the future will bring.   

[educatedguy]

Crushed,

I do hope the  DBT helps and she does not try to manipulate it like she does so many other things in her life that force her to confront her behavior.  We shall see I guess.  For quite some time she was adamant she didn't have a problem and that it was just me that "made" her act the way she does.  I admit, it will be hard to hold back my expectations since I am jumping for joy inside that she even considered DBT.  In the mean time I'll do exactly what you referred to... .use this time as a breathing period, recharging the tanks for the winding road to come.

Ace,

So now that you ignore the ultimate threat, "I want a divorce," how does your wife react?  Mine gets livid when I don't react with fear and plead her to stay.  She has actually filled out paperwork to file at one point, though I found out she didn't "really" file the docs.  I think sometimes she may just file to "prove" she isn't bluffing, ya know?

[Ace]

Educated,

I guess if I were you I would be hopeful, but not too hopeful.  In other words, live your life and hope that your wife gets help for her.  Think and live for yourself.  Sounds selfish, but I wished I had done that earlier.

 The ultimate threat.  Boy that used to scare me.  I would plead with her why she wanted a divorce and try and coerce her to stay. It was pretty pathetic.  Looking back now, if I saw how I acted, I would be ashamed.  I realized that by pleading, in a way I was trying to control the situation, trying to control her.  It seemed so crazy why she would want a divorce when she was the one causing distress, but then again, at that point I was trying to use my logic with her emotions.  Losing battle.  Once I realized there was no controlling her, that not only was that not healthy, but why would I want to be with someone I have to convince to stay with me.  That logic really shined the light on it.  Now I think "Her decision, her loss."  It sounds like you are at that point.  That is awesome.  Very liberating feeling when you are there.  My wife started with breaking up with me a few times in college.  Then threatening to break up with me when we had a child, then the threats of divorce started in after we got married, kicking me out numerous times, until she filed a couple years ago.  Within a few months she changed her mind and "seemed" to realize that there was something wrong with her.  She rescinded the filing and moved back in with me with the kids.  I only reinforced the threats by reacting to them, in the way she wanted.  Now, I simply say "If that is what you want to do then do it.  No one is holding a gun to your head making you stay in this marriage."  I wouldn't say she gets more upset, but I would say she gets very confused on how to act.  The first time I did that, she looked so confused.  It was like her world was tipped upside down.  I could actually see it in her face, like she was thinking, "Huh?, that wasn't supposed to happen, what do I do now".  In the last couple years I have gotten only a couple threats and only after I pushed her on what she was thinking.  For instance, getting the silent treatment for a week, and asking her what was up, getting told she hated me and how much I sucked along with other choice statements, then me asking why she would want to be married to someone who was ______, using her words (big mistake, probably should just walk away at that point), and getting the "Good question." response, and then the "Maybe we shouldn't be married" threat.

Ah good times, good times.    

[Soontobenidan]

In our 25 years of marriage, I've endured many, many episodes of silent treatment.  I finally learned to leave it alone and quit trying to get him to talk to me so we could solve it.  But I have to say, while I thought it was working and he wasn't having those episodes as much, that wasn't true over the last couple of years.  I had one period of time when he didn't speak to me at all for 4 full months.  We lived in the same house, but he never once said anything to me.  And he said it was because I wasn't telling our then 20 year old that she shouldn't be asking her father if she could go out with a particular guy (she NEVER disrespected her father by dating this boy, though he and she were very close and wanted to date).  Wow - sounds crazier now that I'm typing it out.     Oh, and I almost forgot to add that I finally broke down and wrote him a note, apologizing for what, I didn't know.  I just said I was sorry.  He then told me that he wasn't angry, he was just hurt.  I don't get this 4 months of silence over being hurt thing.   

[lacole]

Hi all... .

My experience with the silent treatment has been similair to many of your experiences... .my once best friend has BPD... .years ago, I would beg and plead for her return, apologize for everything under the sun and then some... .

(I didnt know then that she suffered from this... .)

Then, I would wait it out a few weeks... .then give in. But a prior posting nailed it... .once you give in, it actually takes longer for them to come around... .like you have given them abit more fuel to continue.

Now, I just wait it out... .we had a falling out in early March, she ignored me for almost two weeks before leaving a scathing vm on my cell. I just decided to ignore her at that point... she sent me a blank text message a few weeks later... .Im thinking she thought I would respond... I didnt... .she then sent me a random text about nothing a few weeks after that... .like all was now ok with her... .I responded to her very generically... .and then she started sending me one text after another... .things from how great my hair looked to if my kids were playing soccer... .I did finally call her and check in quickly... .that was almost two weeks ago... .since then, she has dropped off the face of the earth... Im only thinking that she must want me to chase her abit more, prove to her that I need her? One phone call isnt enough for her... .another poster commented that she will get mad at you for ignoring her... .even though I checked in... .she will think I should be calling more... .you can never get ahead with this... .(more in text post)

[lacole]

well... .I did give her a quick call today... .left her a message... .just wanted to say Hi, hoped she was well... etc... .

I have heard nothing back... not that I expected to or wanted too... .I just am bracng myself for her thinking I didnt care enough to call these past few weeks... .but then again, she didnt call either... .

not sure what to do at this point... .I have to more plans to call or text, she can think I care or not by my call today. If I see her I will say Hi, be cordial and polite... .and stay upbeat and happy... .that kills them... to know you are happy without them... .moving on positively without them... .

Anyone else experience that... .have the person with BPD in your life get upset when you are moving on, living happy without them?

[Marii]

I noticed a couple comments regarding the similarities of the BPD playbook. Just so you know, it also withstands the test of time.

My mother was Undiagnosed BPD. To this day, I remember back 50  years ago when she would freeze out my dad with silent treatment for days and sometimes weeks on end. I would get it too if I sided with him. She would lock herself in the bedroom and refuse to come out or come out with this horrible look on her face. She would not cook anything for me and so my dad would be in the kitchen trying to make eggs or something. Conversely, she would rage about getting a divorce and those were the days when women had no means of support if they weren't married. To this day I can relive the fear I felt that my whole world would be turned inside out. I was only 5 at the time.

Yup- helluva way to live.

[borderdude]

My thoughts , regarding my BPD gf, why she did not contact. She NEVER initiated , only once when I almost "order" it.

* Communication is not mine problem, (or any issues for that matter).

* He shall take care of me, I leave it to my caretaker.

* He is perfect , communication is only needed when he wants to , I just need to mirror him.

* If he likes me he contacts me anyway, I have to be careful not disturb him

[Gimme Peace]

Silence is the ultimate form of control. When he goes into silent treatment, I leave and find something fun to do. He's not talking, it's like he's not really there so no reason for me to stay. I refuse to be in the house with someone who behaves that way... .especially at his age. Used to drive me crazy until I started taking care of me.

Silence doesn't work on me anymore. He is mentally disturbed and I won't play the head games he tries to impose on me.

Yes, it's push/pull all the way. He pushes me away before he thinks I will leave. It's a defense mechanism that also serves as a self-fulfilling prophecy... .i.e. abandonment.