Calmer, LESS abusive period - my thoughts

[15years]

I figured I have to document this so I remember how I felt at this stage.

Since the half-hearted attempt to move out three weeks ago, things have been generally calmer and less abusive. She has made a decision to forgive me, as long as I don't forget what I've done to her. So she has been happy and positive about 80 % of the time.

What this does to me is I get really anxious. I'm ruminating whether she will behave well for many months or even a year, and if I in that case will forget how bad it felt to be with her. Only for it to get worse again, but at that point I may find myself even more locked in, maybe because of a new pregnancy or something serious like that.

However, I really suspect that it's about to go downhill again soon. She will have to come up with a slightly fresh approach to the "15years is abusive"-idea, but she is creative, so she will find it.
- Maybe more criticism for my present behavior.
- Further expectations of taking responsibility for my shortcomings. Expecting that I bring up past issues, to show her I haven't forgotten. Criticism for not doing that and using that as an excuse to break her own promise about forgiving me.
- Me not meeting her expectations of commitment and showing of affection.
- Me not taking any steps to fix our relationship.
- Unmet sexual expectations.
- Me accidentally saying or doing something stupid that shows her I haven't changed.
 
The list could go on I guess.


The thing is, almost every day I see hints of future fights. Yesterday for example, talking about age limitations, she wants to be very strict and never break any age limitations with our kids, until they are legally grown up. Fair enough, that's not a huge problem for me, kids need boundaries from parents etc. But then she brings up how both our parents failed to do this when we were young, and as an example, how my parents let me sleep over at my ex girlfriends house when I was 15, and that they didn't prevent me from accessing pornography as a minor. So really she is closing in on the old issues...

[Couper]

This reads very similar to my current situation.  My uBPDw's cycle was to push things out to the very edge of the cliff and right before I dropped off, reel everything back in, regroup, get comfortable again, and start over.

Since a few years ago when I finally figured out that getting off the merry-go-round would take away that ability from her, she went through a phase of wigging out (without me responding to it), then her looking for new hosts (now in the form of a group of "rescuers" where she can get her victim card stamped), and then the "counseling" she started several months ago that seems to be purely for validating her narrative.

However, the demon still lurks.  The other night I had to discuss a child issue with her.  I did my best to stay on topic, but as these things tend to go she started wandering into the minefield.  She has found a way to control (or conceal) her anger better, but her thought process is the same.  Basically, she started blaming me for bad things she had done largely to others (acting out) as a response to me not meeting her perceived needs.  When I stomped that down by telling uBPDw that she, and only she, is responsible for her actions and how low it is to blame me for her abusive treatment of others, I could see it's all still in there.  A couple of past narratives came up where she again changed them to something entirely new to suit the moment.  She outright lied to me about things I have documented in her own hand.  That was okay.  It allowed me to see that any change I suspected might be genuine was really just fiction.  Nothing has changed.  Like I told her, "You are free and completely on your own and I am not responsible for you".  She's gonna do what she's gonna do with no remorse for screwing with other people's heads.    

You are right to document / journal.  Being able to reference back will help you keep your marbles intact and your eyes looking straight ahead.      

[ForeverDad]

It appears she is determined to not change nor to admit responsibility for her denied misdeeds?

Well, since she refuses to change, how does that impact the relationship or marriage?  It is still dysfunctional so how does it continue?  Odds are that this period of "less abusive" won't last.  Then what?

[15years]

She still wants to state as a fact that I have been abusive, but she does it in a friendly less obvious manner. For example talking about how she has finally stood up against everyone who has ever wronged her, including me. And that life finally can begin.

But she is careful not to move me into the persecutor role, because I think she has realized that if she put me there the risk of me leaving her is higher. But that's only for now. The moment I let my guard down will be interesting to observe what happens.

This calm period is really breaking me down. I'm exhausted and have trouble getting out of bed, it's like a physical depression. But it's only been like this for a few days now, my four weeks long summer holiday started today. The next time there's a fight I think I'll be back on my feet again. Does anyone recognize that? It's like my energy and lust for life is based on my intention to exit the relationship. Now that she's being sweet to me all day long I loose that motivation.

Friday night she told me I can't read whatever book I want, it's disrespectful. She's sensitive to words. I'd have to guess what kind of books she wouldn't tolerate. And that's during a calm and sweet period.

[Notwendy]

I don't think it's possible to change disordered thinking. If she feels that you are abusive- well to her you are. If she feels upset by what you are reading, she doesn't recognize it as her feelings. You must be "doing this" to her.

This is also similar to my BPD mother's perspective. When there's black and white thinking, we could do 10 nice things for her, but if we did one thing that she's upset about, that's the sum of it. Surely you have done a lot of nice things as well as probably messed up. We are humans, we make errors. If she's focused on the errors, that's how she sees it. We can not control what someone thinks.

It is crazy making. You need to hold on to your own sense of reality. For instance, her dwelling on your behavior at age 15 is irrational. You aren't 15. It's got nothing to do with who you are now, but she can think what she thinks.

We can become anger junkies. It's a rush of adrenaline and all kinds of brain chemicals. Anger inhibits our higher thinking. We operate on our "lizard brains"- the part we share with all creatures that keeps us alive if we are being chased by a wild animal. Fight or flight. Thinking can come later. This is why people may do/say things when they are angry that they regret later .

I think anger with dissociation is a way BPD mother releases her feelings. Afterwards, she feels better and is more calm. Problem is, we don't feel better. We feel emotionally wiped out. We are wired the same as our cave man ancestors. Once safe from the wild animal chase, all the adrenaline has been used up and it's time to rest and recharge.

You might find it easier to leave when experiencing her rage episode because of the adrenaline rush. Your wife is abusive. Your body gears up to keep you safe- because it's working the way it is supposed to. You are less motivated now, because at the moment, you are not in danger.

Your motivation could be enhanced by her behavior in a bad moment, but ultimately, this decision needs to be based on you, not her. Her behavior can change with her feelings.

[Manic Miner]

She still wants to state as a fact that I have been abusive, but she does it in a friendly less obvious manner. For example talking about how she has finally stood up against everyone who has ever wronged her, including me. And that life finally can begin.

That's exactly what my wife says - now she's finally found peace and put a life on her feet. Of course I was responsible for so many wrongs, as were the others, but she's passed that. Now I'm guilty because I don't see and appreciate that she's happy.

The truth is, while she is not depressed and anxious anymore, takes no pills and is in the best physical shape than ever, she surrounded herself with sport, fitness and masks that hide all sorts of stuff. I'm also a sporty guy, but my wife takes it to extreme, it's almost the only thing she talks about - sport, job and our daughter - those are 99% of our topics. On top of that, everything we've been doing for years in our free time and our bonding - is no more. Intimacy - zero, only if I approach her first. Even then, she'll have to think about it. It's just sad where we have been before and where are we now.

But she is careful not to move me into the persecutor role, because I think she has realized that if she put me there the risk of me leaving her is higher. But that's only for now. The moment I let my guard down will be interesting to observe what happens.

This calm period is really breaking me down. I'm exhausted and have trouble getting out of bed, it's like a physical depression. But it's only been like this for a few days now, my four weeks long summer holiday started today. The next time there's a fight I think I'll be back on my feet again. Does anyone recognize that? It's like my energy and lust for life is based on my intention to exit the relationship. Now that she's being sweet to me all day long I loose that motivation.  

Yes. I can very much relate to that. I have noticed a pattern when wife and I talk about where to go with our relationship, even though I know there will be no outcome and little to nothing will change, I feel better. It's almost like it adds "stability" in some twisted, perverted way.
Because, as you know, that's not normal. We should be feeling better during nice times and cherish them. But you and I know they won't last so I guess it makes us hyper-vigilant then.

Friday night she told me I can't read whatever book I want, it's disrespectful. She's sensitive to words. I'd have to guess what kind of books she wouldn't tolerate. And that's during a calm and sweet period.

I had similar situation, but in my case I was playing chess.com and for some ? reason I was annoying the hell out of her and she had to humiliate the chess as a game and then went early to sleep. There was no arguing prior, nothing, I just sat and played it on my phone while she was reading a book. I guess she wanted something else after she finished reading and instead of talking to me or reaching out she chose the worst possible method.

[FirstSteps]

I very much relate to this.  I am on the edge of separating, and my wife is going back and forth between anger, weeping and 100% calm and happy several times a day right now.   

I do think I've gotten addicted to the chaos too.  The moment it is calm I feel like I can't leave.  The moment it goes bad, I'm 100% sure I need to leave today.  And when it is calm, I am totally lost.

I think this can be a useful dynamic to get one out of the relationship and to keep perspective.  But I'm starting to worry that if it goes on too long, it will just be yet another ongoing pattern where I won't be taking responsibility for my own life.

I hope you have a calm vacation so you can really process what you want and make that move.  I haven't gotten there personally but I'm hoping the path is leading in the right direction.  I am personally just trying not to "come back" as far each time.  Which leaves me closer to the exit after every episode.  But I still know that final step will be mine to take.

[PeteWitsend]

She still wants to state as a fact that I have been abusive, but she does it in a friendly less obvious manner. For example talking about how she has finally stood up against everyone who has ever wronged her, including me. And that life finally can begin.

...

This reminds me of a pattern I'd see, where BPDxw would come up with some "theory" (or to describe it another way... a "lie") that she decided would further whatever personal interest she was pushing at the time.

Generally, she'd come up with something way off base.  then just repeat it enough times that it would seem like it must be a problem if she kept talking about it.  And then of course, I'd have to compromise with her crackpot view in order to keep the peace.  So she may have started a fight, completely on her own and been unfair, but if I wanted to move on, I had to admit I shared some blame for something.

It was almost like state propaganda writ small; personal propaganda.  Or like she was trying to convince an audience or a jury of something.  But there was no one else here, despite her efforts to triangulate and drag 3rd parties into it.  It was just her and I, and all she was doing was destroying the sort of trust a lasting relationship can be built on.

The last time she tried to do this, we were actually divorced.  She apparently went through some old brokerage account statements I turned over during our divorce and found an instance of me withdrawing a few hundred dollars in dividends from an investment account and putting them in our joint checking account. 

this was before we were divorced, so the money - if anything - went to our family bills. 

But she framed this all as a "gotcha" and sent a screenshot of the withdrawal with a comment that I stole money from her (in all caps).  This was ridiculous for a lot of reasons, not only because I didn't do it, but also the investment account was all mine, established well before we were married and holding stock I bought before I even knew she existed.  The idea this was "her money" was absurd.  And she was the one who started our divorce proceedings by withdrawing all our money from every account she had access to.  Projection...?

She sent me a few more messages about it, but was really just shouting into the void at this point... we were divorced, it was final, and there was no point in acknowledging any of it or even arguing with her.

She eventually dropped it after a couple weeks and never brought it up again.

So don't play along with them.  The games aren't going to stop, but your admission of abuse - especially if she captures it in writing - will only serve to come back to bite you.

[PeteWitsend]

There is a cycle at work here.

I noticed BPDxw liked to pretend fights were no big deal and every "resolution" or make up session was an opportunity to clear the slate and start over.

But I'd note the pattern occurred awfully frequently... and when I'd confront her about how often we fought, she'd get extremely angry.  Like I'd touched a nerve.  

I think some here would consider this all a cycle of abuse in and of itself.  The abuser wants you to forget about the past, and focus on the future, and puts the burden of preserving the peace on your agreeing to forgive and forget.

It sucks because that's similar to the advice they give married couples, right?  You're supposed to forget about quarrels and not bring them up again.  Have a short memory, they say!  But BPDers by their nature, really take advantage of that... forgiving is one thing, but forgetting?  They'll have you accepting complete blame for their actions, enabling truly atrocious behavior if you let them.

[Manic Miner]

I think some here would consider this all a cycle of abuse in and of itself.  The abuser wants you to forget about the past, and focus on the future, and puts the burden of preserving the peace on your agreeing to forgive and forget.

It sucks because that's similar to the advice they give married couples, right?  You're supposed to forget about quarrels and not bring them up again.  Have a short memory, they say!  But BPDers by their nature, really take advantage of that... forgiving is one thing, but forgetting?  They'll have you accepting complete blame for their actions, enabling truly atrocious behavior if you let them.

Yes. My wife tells the same wherever I try to pull something from the past (even if the "past" is just few months old) - I shouldn't be doing that as she doesn't do that herself (partly to completely not true).

However, I make sure to point out that even though I won't return to past, as I don't want pointless fights anymore, I forgive but will never forget. And she knows that, I make sure she has that in mind next time she tries to lose control. Usually that makes her behave and get back on track.

[BigOof]

Arguing with pwBPD is like arguing with a suicide bomber. Neither can agree upon facts or the damage their actions will do to others. The only that matters is their emotions and beliefs, no matter how bizarre.

"Never argue with a fool, onlookers might not be able to tell the difference"

[PeteWitsend]

Yes. My wife tells the same wherever I try to pull something from the past (even if the "past" is just few months old) - I shouldn't be doing that as she doesn't do that herself (partly to completely not true).

However, I make sure to point out that even though I won't return to past, as I don't want pointless fights anymore, I forgive but will never forget. And she knows that, I make sure she has that in mind next time she tries to lose control. Usually that makes her behave and get back on track.

BPDxw had made some very bizarre and troubling allegations about my family, and behaved deplorably to some of them, about a year into our marriage.

I was fully prepared to let bygones be bygones and forget about all that, if it would've stopped.  I could have just chalked it up to post-partum issues, or immaturity and moved on.  Instead, when she felt like I wasn't going to accept her version of reality - particularly because doing so would've required me to cut myself off from contact with my parents - she doubled down on it... picking fights at random and grasping at straws to find other grounds and reasons why we shouldn't allow my parents to visit, or we shouldn't visit with them (or with other members of my family), that I could see or verify as being false pretenses (e.g. lies about who said what, or did what, or what text messages or emails were sent).  

This made it impossible for me to forget and move on; it would be one thing if it was an isolated incident... instead it was a pattern.  And I felt like I had to solve it, rather than tolerate it or live with it, because it had very real effects on my family: not only isolating and alienating me from my parents and relatives, but also friends (I could see she was also finding ways to keep me from spending time with them), but also alienating our daughter from my family.  

[15years]

It's good to hear your thoughts and stories, I will continue to use this thread to share/document my thoughts and feelings during this calm period.



I have written many times about my worry about her need for words of commitment and affection. It still worries me and while she begs in a loving tone now, it's hard to lie and hard to be honest. Do I say what she wants to hear to keep the peace or do I tell her honestly that I'm struggling to love her right now.

If I actually wanted to give this relationship a serious effort, I'd need calm, but I'd also need to address how little I trust her. Or would my feelings change if I had more calm days, added some necessary boundaries and learned to validate her the right way. That way I wouldn't need to be honest about my view on our relationship? Is it even possible to be honest about that and keep the peace at the same time?

If my goal is to end this relationship, what would be the best course of action, to tell her everything she wants to hear, or destroy the relationship by being honest?

Any thoughts? my thoughts are all over the place regarding this subject!

[Notwendy]

It might help to look at the pattern of these requests.

Recall, there's an addiction to the drama between the two of you and there's a start to these discussions. It's been called an invitation to the crazy party. Often we accept the invitation because it's something so automatic and we are "addicted" as well. Think of it as if you were an alcoholic and your wife has handed you a drink. (it goes both ways but this may be the situation with the frequent requests for you to declare your love for her).

Here is the pattern: she presents with a need, and you feel obligated to meet that need because you are the rescuer in this relationship. The role meets your needs and so you automatically jump on this bandwagon.

But what if her need is actually emotional release of pent up uncomfortable feelings? (she's been calm for a while) and she needs to blow up (and be abusive) to manage them? Is the request the leading "invitation" to the blow up?

Think of how this goes depending on how you respond. If you tell her what she wants to hear, is she satisfied with it? I think from past posts, she's not. You either don't say it the way she wants it to be or she gets upset at your reply. This serves her purpose- she blows up at you and you are to be blamed for it.

You also know what could happen if you told her you were struggling with your feelings. Or that you didn't want to reply. You will then start WW3. This serves her purpose- she blows up at you and you are to be blamed for it.

But when you get an invitation to the crazy party, you don't have to accept. You don't have to "pick up the drink" of drama being offered to you.

If this is the situation, think of ways to not participate, to diffuse the situation ( if possible ). First is to validate- focus on her. "Hi honey, are you feeling that I don't love you? That must feel bad to think that". See where that goes. You may just need to let her vent for a bit. Don't respond by JADE. Say things like "gosh honey that must feel awful"

If it escalates to abuse, quickly remove yourself.

[15years]

I think the calm period is effectively nearing its end. We do have two birthday parties planned for Sunday and Wednesday so I think she will hold it together through those. But a few days after that when she can let go of the stress from organising the parties, I think that will be the definite end to this 'post separation attempt' calm.

This morning she was talking about abuse and she presented a theory that I have always been terrified of physical violence, that it has always been my greatest fear in life also when I grew up (my family had absolutely no physical violence). And that would be the reason I (Yes me) made a reality of that fear by driving her to become physically violent... this comes from a woman who can talk all day about taking responsibility for ones own actions...

Should I have set a boundary there? I mean I didn't argue but this really made me totally uninterested in trying to be empathetic towards her.

[babyducks]

This morning she was talking about abuse and she presented a theory that I have always been terrified of physical violence, that it has always been my greatest fear in life also when I grew up (my family had absolutely no physical violence). And that would be the reason I (Yes me) made a reality of that fear by driving her to become physically violent... this comes from a woman who can talk all day about taking responsibility for ones own actions...

this is what I see going on here.    she is off loading her shame but putting responsibility for it onto you.   this is disordered thinking.    this is a distorted reality.    pwBPD have tremendous tremendous difficulty accepting and taking responsibility for their own actions and feelings.    for a pwBPD the thought process goes along the lines of - if I make a mistake - I am a mistake and I absolutely can't stand that so it must be some one else's fault.   of course all that is going on under the surface.   unstated and out of sight.

she is projecting onto you.    she is dumping her hurt, shame and rage onto you.  this is a maladjusted coping tool.

Should I have set a boundary there? I mean I didn't argue but this really made me totally uninterested in trying to be empathetic towards her.

I'm going to say yes.    set a boundary.    allowing her to dump on you fuels her fire not quells it.    it keeps the topic open and active.   

I'd suggest something simple like "I don't want to talk about this now, I am going to go make us a cup of tea and then we can talk about something else."

[Notwendy]

I agree with babyducks and also want to call your attention to the post before yours. I mentioned she needs a conflict for her own emotional release. Is this an "invitation to the crazy party?" Unfortunately for you, this emotional release involves physical abuse. Her comment that you create the need for her to abuse you is classic projection.

You mentioned a boundary. Boundaries are not something we place on someone else. They are about us, what we choose to do in response so someone violating our boundaries. Some ways they do that are to "define us". That's classified by Patricia Evans as a form of verbal abuse. Your boundary is that- you know who you are- you define you. When someone else does that, you can consider if it's in line with your knowledge of what is true and what isn't true.

The other boundary is your physical one. If you believe that nobody should attack and harm you physically, you would not tolerate your wife's physical abuse.

Learn to recognize the "invitation to the crazy parties" and respond accordingly.

[15years]

Babyducks and notwendy - I agree that she has a lot of shame about the physical abuse. But the physical abuse is quite new for us, and things were like this also before that, so it has just taken a physical form.

She's looking for a way back into the 'debate-system' we have had, meaning her looking for universal truths and me not being allowed an opinion. And also, the 'debate-system' of her choosing as the only acceptable grown up conversation - we're too grown up for distractions, entertainment, philosophical thoughts, whatever. She wants to go back there, to that narrow place where everything revolves around her feelings and thoughts - if she's happy I'm free, if she's not, I should respect that and be in the exact serious place as her. To a degree, we have had a small break from that but that break can't go on for too long.

She wants to again present her thoughts and feeling about the.universal truths.

Does anyone understand what I'm trying to describe here? :D

Maybe this is the invitation to the crazy party your talking about notwendy?

Sry my replies have to be written fast as I'm on summer vacation so I'm around her all the time...

Thanks for the support.

[Notwendy]

If you really want an opinion ( not knowing your wife well) these kinds of "universal truth" discussions sound more like her trying to make sense out of her own feelings about things and framing them as universal truths.  And you don't get to have an opinion because that would contradict her own subjective "universal truth" but to me-someone claiming they know what is universal truth sounds a bit cult like to me.

If someone were to tell me that my fears of being physically abused somehow had an effect on their choice to abuse me, I'd be thinking that's pretty out there. As adults, we are responsible for our own actions. We choose them.

I do get that kind of thinking, it's the new age idea of "manifesting" thoughts but that can cross the line of reality. Our own thoughts impact our emotions. Thinking positive thoughts might result in increased self esteem, being more effective at work, which might result in more earnings. But this is self motivating ourselves to do better. It's not magic. We don't control someone else's decisions by thinking about it.

It's important to look at these things in context of reality. For someone with BPD, thoughts equal facts but you know that isn't true. Your fears are not responsible for her choice to be physically abusive. She is.

[Couper]

And that would be the reason I (Yes me) made a reality of that fear by driving her to become physically violent...

She's looking for a way back into the 'debate-system' we have had,

Does anyone understand what I'm trying to describe here? :D

Taking from two separate posts of yours -- yes, I think I understand.  Mine did both of these things (not physically violent, but blaming me for her actions as a means to justify them).  Many times she has created a conflict out of thin air with the express purpose of making me angry, later admitting to doing this, and still blaming me for responding angrily when that is exactly the type of response she was trying to elicit.  Essentially running up and stomping on somebody's foot, then that somebody curses them for what they did, and then the stomper expresses outrage and blames you for your outrage because they knew they had to be rude to you because you would be "rude" back.  Sort of like they already perceived what the consequences would be for their actions so they felt entitled to act first.  I know that is not logical, but neither is BPD, so does that fit?

She did it just the other day during the rare exchange we had since I quit talking to her (except out of absolute necessity) almost three years ago.  I mentioned something now that I can't remember about how she treats people and her retort was essentially that she knowingly behaved badly because I made her do it and I told her, "Stop blaming everyone for your bad behavior and take responsibility for yourself" and her new more well-behaved self stopped there.  I, too, am experiencing something I think similar to yourself in that she has been more well-behaved since this "counseling" that isn't counseling she has started, but given the volley of blame and passive-aggressiveness I experienced in my 10 minute exchange with her, I know her demons are still there, she was just more polite about it.  I almost wish she was as unhinged as she was last summer because what I see of her on the surface now feels even more sinister. 

Yes though, the debate system -- when I first quit talking, she would bait me to try and suck me in and I'd either walk away or tell her that I could see what she was doing, that no good would come of it, and that I'm not going to participate.  This would anger her too, but the difference is that I got off the merry-go-round.  In the past I would have stayed on the merry-go-round getting dizzy with her.  There is no law that says that you have to allow someone that will not take care of themselves to ruin you, too. 

[15years]

Still calm, but I'm performing a balancing act that I'm getting better and better at. At the same time, I guess this calm period will end when she need it to end, not when I happen to make a mistake. I probably make mistakes every day now, she just decides to not turn it into a big fight.

We just had our second birthday party for S6 and everything went well. My brother's wife behaved in a weird way as usual, I bet she has some personality issue as well. She is the opposite of my wife so my wife finds her behavior rude and says to me that my brother should set some boundaries in their relationship. It's true, but I try not to gossip so much about that as we also have a dysfunctional relationship. It does confuse me though, that my W can function so well in social situations compared to my sister in law. They may both have BPD but very different personalities and values. One thing I noticed though was that my brother seemed nervous and sad but tried to be outgoing. I'd love to bond with him more but I'm not sure he's open to admitting any faults in his marriage... and I'm not sure it's the right thing to do to make him question his wife's mental health. He has always made excuses for her and he always prioritize his family. Not sure I want to rock the boat.


Anyways, now that the parties are over and W can relax... she can start ruminating about my abuse and betrayals again.

If you really want an opinion ( not knowing your wife well) these kinds of "universal truth" discussions sound more like her trying to make sense out of her own feelings about things and framing them as universal truths.  And you don't get to have an opinion because that would contradict her own subjective "universal truth" but to me-someone claiming they know what is universal truth sounds a bit cult like to me.

I agree. Remember I started a thread about the similarity between cults and dysfunctional relationships a while back?

[livednlearned]

My brother's wife behaved in a weird way as usual, I bet she has some personality issue as well...They may both have BPD but very different personalities and values.

You and your brother both have wives with BPD symptoms? That is worth exploring.

Have you talked to a therapist or counselor about the link between your childhood experiences and your current relationship?

[15years]

You and your brother both have wives with BPD symptoms? That is worth exploring.

Have you talked to a therapist or counselor about the link between your childhood experiences and your current relationship?

Thank you for commenting, I too find it very interesting!

And my sister divorced her husband and she told me she will never forget the look of his eyes when he was irritated/mad so she had to divorce him... he was nice to me though and I never noticed my sister being controlled by him. He is now definitely in a new r/s with a pwBPD. My nephew told me they have to leave the home when she gets "completely crazy". And they already had a new baby so a new sibling for my sister kids.

The thing about my foo is that they don't want to see any problems before it becomes inevitable. No one has said a thing about the new baby or that my sister kids live in a dysfunctional home half the time. And no one has ever said anything about my sister in law being weird. My wife, they started noticing when it wasn't possible to ignore anymore. It's like they desperately don't want to know about problems.

[livednlearned]

What is your mom like? Your dad?

With so much BPD floating around in your family, the odds are high that your generation isn't the first BPD rodeo 

Understanding where the BPD link originated may help you piece together why you stay, and why you feel uncomfortable talking to your brother, despite noticing he is in pain.

[15years]

Also, my uncle divorced 15 years ago and two of three kids went no contact with their mother. Youngest one had to be in contact with her and still is. Suspected NPD or BPD.

Two other cousins is having something called "fatigue syndrome" which is a "popular" self diagnosis here in Scandinavia. Don't know what to make of it, if it's real or not. One of them has cut all contact with outside world and resides in a house in the countryside with sealed windows, he does literally (I really mean literally) nothing at all all day. He eats and drinks and goes to the toilet, nothing else. No reading, no listening to music, nothing.  They say it's a sensitivity to outside stimulus. But he has lived like that for a year. His parents bring food but can't see him that often. Same with his sister but she had it first and has gotten a little better, still don't meet people much. They say this disease affects high achivers so it's sort of validating a perfect victim position, that's what makes me question it.


One theory I have is that the older generation in my extended family is some kind of inner circle protecting the younger generations from problems. But they may not even be aware of doing it and now things have begun to fall apart slowly but increasing in speed.

[15years]

What is your mom like? Your dad?

With so much BPD floating around in your family, the odds are high that your generation isn't the first BPD rodeo 

Understanding where the BPD link originated may help you piece together why you stay, and why you feel uncomfortable talking to your brother, despite noticing he is in pain.

What should I tell him? I just want him to know we can talk and that I won't gossip and that I would appreciate that both of us could be honest with each other. Through my mom I've heard that he's worried about me. So I think he might be downplaying his own situation for himself.


My mom is a over achiever and people person, a bit adhd like, loves to play with the kids and be the fun mother and grandmother who has no limits to her energy. She can be a little passive aggressive.
Dad is hard working and built his own company. I appreciate his intellect and philosophical style. He's an introvert, we didn't create too close of a bond when I was young..never did dad-son stuff..

[Manic Miner]

Over the years I have learned not to stick my nose where I wasn't invited. Incl. my sister. I tried to tell her about her codependant and clingy marriage and her husband that was jobless and just watched TV. I regretted it. In the end she defended her husband and was ultra hostile to me. So I have up.
And you know what? They seem to get along. I wouldn't last a day, but they have been together for a decade, he found a job, etc.

If your brother shows that he'd appreciate support or you start your own story about your W and struggles and he continues with his life and his W, then it's a win win.

[livednlearned]

She can be a little passive aggressive.

Do you feel comfortable sharing here the ways in which she is passive aggressive?

I apologize for the armchair psychology but I know of no one in a BPD relationship who doesn't have some kind of matching pathology in their family of origin. Suggesting that your brother may be with someone with BPD doubles the chances that there are BPD traits in your FOO. 

In Christina Lawson's book, Understanding the Borderline Mother, she writes, "Fathers, as well as mothers, reenact the unconscious dynamics rooted in their repressed childhood experiences."

Might there be something in your own childhood you aren't yet aware of?

There is also a chapter titled Fairytale Fathers. Lawsonn describes the types of men who marry the four different types of BPD women: waif, hermit, queen, witch. These women can be all four expressions of BPD yet have a dominant type.

Your wife seems to meet witch criteria given her intense need to control you. If the witch presentation fits, it may be worth reading about the tendencies of the fisherman, the type that Lawson connects with the witch.

She writes, "These men fail to see how their children are hurt because the fail to recognize how they were hurt as children."

I know you are doing your best at protecting your kids and care about them deeply. It's more about learning to recognize the extent of the abuse.

I thought I was protecting my son because we spent hours doing things outside the house. I mostly shuffled him out of rooms when things began to escalate. I soothed him after something bad happened. When his dad was lying in his own feces on the bed I made sure our son didn't see.

What I didn't understand is that the toxicity and stress I endured was a magnitude more intense for my son to process. His issues, like a lot of kids, showed up when developmentally more complex things were expected of him. The foundation was iffy, thanks to what he was not getting at home. Not understanding that the deficits were due to his parents, he internalized them as defects, like he was the cause of the breakage instead of adults around him failing him.

The scripts we internalize are critically important to understand, otherwise most if not all of us repeat them.

[15years]

Kind of get stuck trying to reply ti your post livednlearned.

I'm not even sure what passive aggression means anymore, I spoke to my wife about it for a long time before getting out of the fog.

My mom does not want to express bad emotions such as anger, irritation, frustration etc. So instead she tries to talk in a happy tone but it's evident to me at least that she's having negative feelings. It's not unreasonable for her to have those negative feelings, it could be something like my family or my brothers family being late more than one hour to dinner at parents house, but she won't express irritation or being hurt. Dad won't either, but he has a passive role in organising the event.

Is this passive aggression or just being a doormat?

I'm absolutely certain that no one in my FOO has a PD. Couldn't that be possible.

I've read Jonice Webbs book called "Running on empty: overcome your childhood emotional neglect". She proposes that neglect can occur in loving families.

What's remarkable in my FOO is that we almost never fought. Not even us kids, maybe only when we were really young. Nevertheless I was afraid that mom and dad would get a divorce as soon as I could sense some tension about minor things.

My wife always tells me there is abuse in my family but she says that about almost all families we know. So it's triggering me a bit when someone wants me to try to see something I don't see. Because that's what my wife does all the time. Define everything so I don't trust my own reality. At the same time, there are probably things that has had some meaning in my childhood that I don't remember or downplay.


I should read that book you suggested...

I would think my wife is the queen due to her histrionic tendencies but I can't say before researching.


It's hard to think about me neglecting my children, but I do wonder often what.I'm missing in this very moment.


Thanks for commenting! Please continue if you feel motivated

[15years]

Over the years I have learned not to stick my nose where I wasn't invited. Incl. my sister. I tried to tell her about her codependant and clingy marriage and her husband that was jobless and just watched TV. I regretted it. In the end she defended her husband and was ultra hostile to me. So I have up. I could see some version of that happening to me, but rather that he would ignore it and I would feel embarrassed and like I'm the only one with problems
And you know what? They seem to get along. I wouldn't last a day, but they have been together for a decade, he found a job, etc.

If your brother shows that he'd appreciate support or you start your own story about your W and struggles and he continues with his life and his W, then it's a win win. yes maybe start slowly and see if we could build trust, good idea

See comments above in red text.

anyone else that want to share their experience?

[babyducks]

I've read Jonice Webbs book called "Running on empty: overcome your childhood emotional neglect". She proposes that neglect can occur in loving families.

there was more than a little neglect in my family.    physical and emotional.   I never thought much about it as child.   I believed this was the way things were in other families.   even as an adult I had trouble identifying it.   my family of course sold it as a positive.   'oh babyducks had such independence as a child, no one ever told her what to do'   complete with a laugh laugh wink wink.

did I have a model of a loving and caring family.   nope absolutely not.    everyone hunkered down in their bunkers trying to avoid any interactions or contact with anyone else.

My wife always tells me there is abuse in my family but she says that about almost all families we know. So it's triggering me a bit when someone wants me to try to see something I don't see. Because that's what my wife does all the time. Define everything so I don't trust my own reality. At the same time, there are probably things that has had some meaning in my childhood that I don't remember or downplay.

definitely understand the trigger.   not trying to push on that at all.   I know what was true for me is there were deeply engrained reasons I tolerated, heck, I expected the very poor treatment that came from my pwBPD.   it seemed ~normal~ to me.   my expectations of kindness, respect, communication were pretty much nonexistent.    never having seen it, I never missed it.

It was my role in my family to be the caretaker.   I was given to my grandparents at about 10 years old  so that I could help them as they aged.    with the lifting, the walking, the daily household chores.   the unintended message was I had value in a relationship if I was over performing.    if I was care taking.   and I swallowed that one hook line and sinker.

none of these things rose to the level of 'abuse', in my opinion.   although there were probably a few isolated incidents that hit the threshold.    there was a lot of Adverse Childhood Experiences that cause me to score pretty high on the ACE's test.

I am also pretty conflict intolerant.    that must have originated in my FOO but I couldn't quite tell you why or where.      of the four reactions - flight, fight, freeze or fawn.   I tend to freeze or fawn.     I associate freezing with going numb and fawning with capitulating to someone else's reality.     

helpful thread.   thanks for keeping it going.
'ducks

[livednlearned]

Oof. Apologies if my comments were triggering, 15 years. My n/BPDx often did something similar to what your wife does, though for him I suspect it was to further isolate me, which it did.  

Like you, I don't have parents with PDs. However, they are emotionally stunted. They were not equipped to help kids manage basic challenges. My mother is an adult child -- this insight came from a family therapist. She is not able to get emotional needs met directly so uses workarounds that can feel very distancing.

What you describe sounds like a parent committed to doing her best to avoiding challenging emotions, probably with good intentions. Could it be that she inadvertently invalidated regular feelings?

Perhaps it does not rise to the level of abuse, but it may be a degree of invalidation that creates a split reality. If what you feel and what is said are chronically different, would that gap between real emotions (reality) and words (preferred reality) feel normal?

[15years]

I am also pretty conflict intolerant.    that must have originated in my FOO but I couldn't quite tell you why or where.      of the four reactions - flight, fight, freeze or fawn.   I tend to freeze or fawn.     I associate freezing with going numb and fawning with capitulating to someone else's reality.     

helpful thread.   thanks for keeping it going.
'ducks

Previously I also tended to freeze or fawn in arguments with my wife. Haven't quite read much about fawning but it sounds like my coping strategy up to the point when it doesn't work anymore, after that I freeze and that often happened quite quickly. I was surprised to notice how easy it was to start fighting this winter when I grew some self confidence after realizing my W wasn't always right. Now I'm trying to not use any of those four responses.

In my foo we didn't fight and I have been very conflict intolerant my whole life.

Oof. Apologies if my comments were triggering, 15 years. My n/BPDx often did something similar to what your wife does, though for him I suspect it was to further isolate me, which it did. 

Like you, I don't have parents with PDs. However, they are emotionally stunted. They were not equipped to help kids manage basic challenges. My mother is an adult child -- this insight came from a family therapist. She is not able to get emotional needs met directly so uses workarounds that can feel very distancing.

What you describe sounds like a parent committed to doing her best to avoiding challenging emotions, probably with good intentions. Could it be that she inadvertently invalidated regular feelings?

Perhaps it does not rise to the level of abuse, but it may be a degree of invalidation that creates a split reality. If what you feel and what is said are chronically different, would that gap between real emotions (reality) and words (preferred reality) feel normal?

This is getting close to describing my FOO. My mom is pretty competent and people turn to her for emotional support, me too when I was a child, but somehow I didn't tell her my deepest worries, because I didn't want to be a burden, or maybe felt that she wouldn't understand. She was the middle child in her foo and her little brother jokingly calls her a deaconess, because she never wanted to fight and instead bring together people. I think she is frightened of personal problems though. When they are at arms length, she's fine and engage in solving problems.

If someone close to her expresses hurt feelings over something another person close to her said, she can be invalidating because she desperately don't want there to be a fight between two loved ones. I noticed this when one of her grandchildren expressed annoyance with another grandchild. She didn't validate those feelings at all, she just told her off by saying the other child is a really good child - an 'end of story' kind of comment.

How would that have affected my childhood? Maybe we children weren't allowed to express feelings about other people she liked, for example fight between us children weren't accepted. What kind of consequences would that have had? Does it serve an important purpose to gossip about loved ones?

[Notwendy]

I think the fact that so many people in a family are involved in relationships with disordered people are a clue that something is is going on in the dynamics of that family. It doesn't necessarily mean a family member had BPD. The dynamics are similar in families with alcoholism or other addiction and maybe other disorders as well. Families function as a unit in a way, with each person in the family taking on a role to keep the balance in the family. These patterns can be very ingrained, and familiar, to the point where someone doesn't think they are dysfunctional because our families set the definition of "normal" for a child. It's normal to them because it's all they know. It's when the child grows up and takes these behaviors that were functional in their family into adult relationships, they can become dysfunctional and lead them to "match" with someone who is also dysfunctional. It feels "normal" and familiar to them.

I think disfunction can be overt or covert. In my FOO, it was obvious that something wasn't normal with BPD mother as her behaviors were obviously disordered. My perception was then that Dad was the normal one. He was the more functional parent, the most even tempered parent. He was also very co-dependent and he reinforced our co-dependency with BPD mother because it kept the dynamics more stable if we all enabled her and complied with her. He didn't see it as not normal- because it was his normal.

However, being co-dependent to this extent is a set up for dysfunction in adult relationships.

By contrast, my mother's family is more like the ones described here. Everyone is high functioning professionally. But emotionally, they are invalidating. They look great from the outside but a closer look reveals dysfunction- but it's more covert. They don't acknowledge issues. Being around them feels as if one is invisible.

I think what is common between these two kinds of families is the inability to deal with conflict and emotions. One family avoids it, sweeps it under the rug, and doesn't deal with it. In my family, BPD mother's emotions were obvious and over the top, while the focus was on her and the only way to manage conflict was to appease her.  Children growing up in both these families did not experience adults working out conflicts in emotionally healthy ways and didn't learn how to do this well themselves.

That's the match- lack of ability to work out conflicts due to not having learned how. It doesn't mean both people have the same disorder, or come from families with a BPD member. The pattern of one person matched with a co-dependent enabling partner is one that is common to different situations and that can be a "match" as well.

[15years]

Thank you all or the interesting points about family dynamics, I think it will take some time for me to figure out my childhood, but discussions like this is necessary for that to ever happen.

 
Regarding the subject of this thread:
The latest development is that the calm period is continuing but every day there's something that leaves me confused and questioning what will happen in the future.

I think she is hypervigilant to where I'm at in the relationship and ironically it feels like she is walking on eggshells around me now. I haven't completely let my guard down, don't know if I ever will again.

She almost daily brings up having a third child which is something we always planned to have, to have three or four  children. She and my eldest son talk a lot about this so it worries me that she's bringing him into this. They laugh and fantasize together how it will be to have another family member. IF I'm staying and manage to stabilize the relationship, I also want another child, but that is not in the near future, at least two years from now. I feel confident to not give in to her request for another child for now. I'm mostly concerned about her involving my son in fantasizing about this dream.

Also, the other day she leaned in to kiss me when our children were present, it felt ok for me at that moment actually. S6 asked "are you in love again?". W said yes and asked him if he liked that and of course he agreed. She told him that we won't fight like we have anymore. S6 told us that you can't hit and fight all the time. W agreed and told him that you cannot hit anyone and fight in the way we have been doing, but grown ups will argue sometimes. He said "Yes but not fight day in and day out". I found it tragically funny and but with a lot of red flags   about what my son is going through. She promised him we won't ever fight like that again... I'm completely clueless how to handle this...     I don't want to mess with my sons feelings/thoughts/reality/everything. Can I tell him anything, he will be so disappointed with us when we fight again. I will try to stay completely calm but have boundaries abd be assertive to avoid exploding myself.

Actually I'm not afraid of her right now. I feel like I have a very thick skin now, too thick to ever develop any feelings of love for her again.

This is really a nowhere land.

We watched a youtube clip from a local B-celebrity yesterday, I found it very disturbing when I realized she's probably bpd herself. I feel I would never want to be near a pwbpd ever again and here I am sharing the most intimate private part of life with one... I don't want her to know about my thoughts and feelings, my health, my daily life. These are feelings of course but maybe my body and mind is actively trying to push me away from her. I never imagined it feeling like this to fall out of love... being in love + being in the fog was helping me stay in this dysfunctional relationship. Without those two it's unbelievably painful to stay in the relationship. At the same time, a lot sI happening with my mind nowadays so I couldn't make a trustworthy decision right now.

Speaking of nowadays, today my wife told me I'm such a great husband nowadays. Is that a subtle way to remind me and cement the idea that I am the cause of all dysfunction or does she simply find my new stubbornness attractive...

I guess this was me venting my thoughts from the last couple of days

[livednlearned]

I think she is hypervigilant to where I'm at in the relationship and ironically it feels like she is walking on eggshells around me now.

It seems like your show of strength gave her the ability to return to baseline after working herself into a state. She has shown she can regulate her impulses to be violent when you demonstrate a boundary.

Would you agree that if your wife is triggered by what you represent in x moment, and you remove that trigger (you), she calms down?

When you returned, she was calm and even seemed appreciative.

Most likely, without specific skills, the effort to contain her impulses will become exhausting. 

Any thoughts on what you might do different if/when she becomes violent?

Could you envision talking to her during this tender cycle about what you will do in the event a fight happens?

[ForeverDad]

She almost daily brings up having a third child which is something we always planned to have, to have three or four children.

She no doubt believes you would not end the marriage if she were pregnant or had a baby.  You will have to be the one ensuring that birth control measures are taken.  She would sabotage you if she had her way.  Sorry.

S6 told us that you can't hit and fight all the time. W agreed and told him that you cannot hit anyone and fight in the way we have been doing, but grown ups will argue sometimes. He said "Yes but not fight day in and day out".

A lifetime ago, before my own marriage's implosion and divorce, I and another elder tried to help a fuming couple...

... So we have to determine individually what is best in our situations, circumstances, level of conflict or discord, as to what we ought to do.  If it is somewhat manageable and low conflict, the marriage might be rocky but still work.  However, if we're always obstructed, sabotaged, disparaged, struggling, etc, then that would not be a good example to the children.

For example, I recall once trying to help a couple with two young children.  They were both clearly very angry with each other, fuming mad even.  They grew up in families that fought.  I reasoned with them, "You grew up around conflict.  Didn't you as children tell yourselves, When I grow up I'll never do what my parents did?  But look, here you are fighting just as they did, so angry that you can't see straight!  If you grow up around conflict, you're at risk to mirror it in your own lives.  So my question is, Do you want that same future for your children, do you want to keep passing that on to the next generations?"

[Couper]

I think she is hypervigilant to where I'm at in the relationship and ironically it feels like she is walking on eggshells around me now. I haven't completely let my guard down, don't know if I ever will again.

She almost daily brings up having a third child which is something we always planned to have, to have three or four  children.

I think that's what I have going on here now.  Once I became vocal about being done with her is when she did a hard about-face.  In the past she has somewhat, but what I'm seeing now -- I don't trust her any further than I can throw her.  You can't take 14 years of dysfunction and just shut it off.  It still peeks through the cracks every once in a while.  Her pattern has always been to run it out to the cliff and then pull it back.  The difference is this time, I haven't allowed the cycle to complete itself like in years-past.

In the beginning, I was open to having three kids.  After the second one was a few years old, I flat out told her no and never changed my mind.  She'd raise the issue and I'd just say look, "It's all you've ever wanted" and you got two and all I ever hear is how you can't manage that, so no way I'm doing three.  Thank goodness I didn't.  In a healthy relationship, I would have loved to have had more little ones, but not with all of this dysfunction.  Another dream gone up in smoke.  Facing what's coming, I wouldn't want my kids to be any younger than they are right now, so at least it worked out sticking to that.  Adulthood is really not that far off for mine.  I feel sorry for those with tiny ones, but maybe in some sense that has its benefits too. 

[Notwendy]

There's the concept of parentification and emotional incest. While emotional incest sounds creepy- it isn't about inappropriate touch but emotionally making the child a "little man" and confiding in them. Parentification involves enlisting the child to take care of the parent's emotions.

And triangulation.

It's not appropriate to discuss adding to the family with a 6 year old child. That's something to discuss with a spouse. It's an adult decision and an adult responsibility. Sure, he wants a sibling. If you were to ask him if he wants a puppy or a pony, he'd be excited about that too.

He's 6 years old[/i] and being triangulated. They laugh and fantasize together? Do you see what is happening here? This child is now her "little man" and emotional caretaker. Asking the two of you to not fight? Is this the job of a 6 year old?

There's a push-pull to a relationship with BPD. She likely senses you are at more of an emotional distance.  It may be that the distance creates some fear for her. While emotional regulation is difficult for someone with BPD, it's possible she's motivated to do this due to sensing your distance.

I think it's hard, maybe impossible, to control your wife's interactions with your son, as there are times when you are not there with the two of them. This situation existed for me growing up as well. BPD mother would take me aside to confide in me about issues with my father. This was not appropriate and some of it was TMI. I think what did help was spending time away from her, with my father's family, and being around adults who didn't put me in an adult role. Telling you not to fight and discussing adding to the family are not the realm of a 6 year old. I hope you can find opportunities where he can be just a kid.

[ForeverDad]

He's 6 years old and being triangulated. They laugh and fantasize together? Do you see what is happening here? This child is now her "little man" and emotional caretaker. Asking the two of you to not fight? Is this the job of a 6 year old?

I called the police one day when my spouse threatened to kill me and she was so angry with me that she put our son in his room, crying.  It wasn't her first rant and rage but I called.  My divorce lawyer said he was a former police officer and said policy is to separate in a domestic dispute incident.  They did try but my quietly sobbing son wouldn't leave my arms and so they just said to "work it out".

Later that night she was bouncing our preschooler on her knee, having him hold her breasts (she had stopped breastfeeding over 2 years earlier) and singing disparaging jingles about dad.

We separated after that and divorced.  Though he is grown and an adult now she still blames me to him.  I told him he needs to set a boundary about that but he does see that as a solution, yet.  To this day she insists on daily calls.

[15years]

The so called calmer period has ended. Looking back at this, I'd say it lasted about one month. At first, she was motivated to be happy with the relationship, but that motivation is slowly being forgotten. I was hesitant at first to say it had ended, because she's still to this day quickly bouncing back to good behavior because of her fear of abandonment.

For me, it now feels even more intolerable to be treated badly. I have this feeling like "this is way too intimate, you don't even know me!" - I'm intrigued to see where that new realization will lead me.


Thanks for all the support on this thread.

[15years]

However, I really suspect that it's about to go downhill again soon. She will have to come up with a slightly fresh approach to the "15years is abusive"-idea, but she is creative, so she will find it.
- Maybe more criticism for my present behavior.
- Further expectations of taking responsibility for my shortcomings. Expecting that I bring up past issues, to show her I haven't forgotten. Criticism for not doing that and using that as an excuse to break her own promise about forgiving me.
- Me not meeting her expectations of commitment and showing of affection.
- Me not taking any steps to fix our relationship.
- Unmet sexual expectations.
- Me accidentally saying or doing something stupid that shows her I haven't changed.
 
The list could go on I guess.

Looking back at the first post in this thread, I was spot on. We are really back to the "15years is abusive" narrative at this stage, like I suspected. It will only get more intense from here I suppose. All the examples of how she would find her way back to blaming me for her feelings has come true more or less.

But really it's not about me of course, so I feel bad for her suffering.

[Manic Miner]

For me, it now feels even more intolerable to be treated badly. I have this feeling like "this is way too intimate, you don't even know me!" - I'm intrigued to see where that new realization will lead me.

Don't shoot the messenger, but in my case, the more I read about BPD, gained more conscious about this condition, learning more tools and everything, the less I had tolerance for more.

I cannot explain why, it should be the opposite. I can only guess. I think I realized it won't get any better, it is what it is. Before knowing about all these awful traits like mirroring, projections, I kind of fooled myself about her getting better, going through a bad period, difficulties of life, coincidences, accepting the blame etc.

Like you, there's more realization in me when I talk to her and listen to her comments about me to just say - we've been 23y together but you don't seem to really know me anymore. Nor you want to actually listen and see who I am. I still kind of hope for something, but, yeah.

[Notwendy]

It is demoralizing to feel cast in the role of the "bad guy" - the cause of the emotional pain they are feeling. I think one benefit of learning about BPD behaviors is realizing that their discomfort isn't about you as much as it's a projection of their own emotional distress. With this understanding, it's possible to not take it personally, not be reactive, not JADE and add to the drama.

On the other hand, it can make you wonder if they can see who you really are.

I think that can vary, as BPD is on a spectrum and ultimately something people decide for themselves.

The calm times are part of a cycle, and if the calm periods fit this pattern, I think it's possible to observe that. The rages/dissociation serves as a release valve for the emotions that cause them discomfort. After the rages, there is a calm time because the feelings have been taken care of. But we don't stop feeling. PwBPD have difficulty managing their uncomfortable feelings. So more feelings happen until they need to be released and the cycle continues.