My replacement has a degree in Criminology and psychology. You go girl

[UnforgivenII]

... .and he was HER BEST FRIEND. Her counsellor. Her shoulder to cry on.

How is it possible? No please explain it to me. It keeps getting crazier.

[gotbushels]

Hi UnforgivenII 

I think having a degree in psychology doesn't mean one is prepared to handle a BPD relationship. Ts and Ps can go through special training for specific disorder types. They also have their professional accreditations. It's a serious mental illness after all. In some ways it's like saying you can build and fly a plane because you have an engineering degree. I think there's no telling where this could go.

Therapists may also have tendencies that can make them vulnerable to BPDs, just like you and I.

Something that might help you with your thinking is noting that some pwBPDs have difficulty defining a friendship when there is no sexual relationship. Perhaps you can draw your own conclusions from there. 

I hope you're feeling better.

[chillamom]

UnforgivenII,

I have a doctorate in psychology and my exBPD/NPDbf was someone I absolutely could not handle, so this poor unfortunate soul will find his head spinning in pretty short order!  My training in no way prepared me to ever handle something like this in my personal life, but like gotbushels said, I'm pretty sure the same need to "fix" as well as some serious FOO issues drew me into both the field of psychology and to a relationship with an individual with some serious PD issues.

I hope you're feeling better as well!

[Fr4nz]

UnforgivenII,

I have a doctorate in psychology and my exBPD/NPDbf was someone I absolutely could not handle, so this poor unfortunate soul will find his head spinning in pretty short order!  My training in no way prepared me to ever handle something like this in my personal life, but like gotbushels said, I'm pretty sure the same need to "fix" as well as some serious FOO issues drew me into both the field of psychology and to a relationship with an individual with some serious PD issues.

I hope you're feeling better as well!

Chilla, this is very interesting!

How much time after the start of the r/s did you realize that something was very wrong with him? And why you stayed in the r/s?

I'm very interested in your experience, since you're a PhD in pyshcology

[Stripey77]

I have a friend, a lovely friend, who is not only BPD diagnosed (at last)... .he is also almost completely qualified as psychotherapist. That has now sadly all had to be put to bed due to several hospital stays and his own condition - he has not been in a good place at all.


The plot thickens though... .HE was the one who first floated the idea with me, months before his diagnosis, that my ex (undiagnosed, but it's looking pretty likely, or at least traits) might have BPD. I had already given this a cursory consideration but dismissed it because it didn't seem to 'fit'. Now, all these months later and with far more understanding and knowledge of this than I would ever have hoped to have had... .I am 99.9%  sure he was right.

Isn't that fascinating? And what does it tell us?

[chillamom]

Fr4nz,

It's very embarrassing for me to admit, but I saw red flags waving from the start and decided to plunge ahead with my self-destruction nonetheless.  Perhaps I should qualify something: My PhD is in Industrial and Organizational Psychology (I put companies  "on the couch",  and my Masters before that was in Clinical.  Perhaps if I had gone on in Clinical I would have been more resistant, but one thing this has done is illuminate my OWN issues quite nicely.  I'm more of a cognitive-behavior person and less of a psychodynamic person, but in truth this relationship has allowed me to re-enact the drama of having a NPD dad and a codependent mom, so at some level it was "irresistible" to my unconscious.  I've also been drawn to fixing things all my life (even now the most enjoyable part of my work is career and academic guidance for my students!) so the waif in him was a magnet for me.

So, I really did notice something wrong right away (literally first meeting), but like any other fool in love, I thought that I could "fix" him, and that my skill set was a good match for what he needed.  Why I stayed?  Still working on answering that question.  Love, guilt, a feeling of obligation, sunk costs, Stockholm syndrome - a combination of all perhaps.  I'm STILL having a hard time staying away, because the latest and I hope last b/u is pretty recent, and he is puling out all the manipulative behaviors that have worked in the past.  I'm ashamed of myself.

I think my experience (and I have a clinician friend who specializes in PD folks that is involved with one as well) shows that for some of us, the traits wave more at us like a red cloth to a charging bull than to red flags that would scare someone away.  Perhaps there's some narcissism involved on my part where I thought I could get him "better" when many psychiatrists and psychologists over the years had been unable to.  Or perhaps I should ask the University where I received my degree to rescind it!  One's level and area of education don't matter much, I think, it's more one's level of pre-existing emotional health and strength, and mine was damn low.

[chillamom]

Stripey77,

I've heard it said that PD's are often ironically drawn into the helping professions, perhaps as a way of trying to address their own issues.  I don't have any solid evidence to support this, but I can tell you from looking at our own graduate students that some have some fairly significant traits. 

Even though I'm "just" a garden variety depressive myself, I've been a pretty good diagnostician, but when it came to my exPDbf, I knew it and STILL ignored.  Makes me a particularly sad case... .

I hope your friend can do well with DBT or whatever avenue he chooses to explore.  People in the profession make the worst patients, however - there are even some specialized programs for "impaired psychologists" that recognize this and try to circumvent the issues.

[Stripey77]

Hi there Chilla;

He's doing mainly really well... the difference between him and my ex is that a) he has a diagnosis and b) he wants to get better. He's in a supportive marriage and has friends and family around him who know and are all willing him to get better. He is no way there yet or out of the woods, but is in the best possible surroundings.

Sadly, my undiagnosed ex, who is no WAY near as severe in his traits as my friend, has friends and so on... .but he's pushed me away umpteen times, and of course, doesn't know what's wrong with him. He just refers to the 'darkness in his brain' and his 'injured brain' that he hoped I could help to heal.  Bit difficult when he is once again pretending I don't even exist.

Sad really is the word of the day for me.

[Fr4nz]

Hey Chilla,

I can relate when you say that some traits in our exes attracted us irresistiby, such as bulls are irresistibly attracted from red flags (very ironic... .red flags, huh? ).

There's nothing wrong in it, I think, as far as we are able to learn from such experiences and understand that those kinds of relationships simply end up to destroy us.

[gotbushels]

Isn't that fascinating? And what does it tell us?

Yes that is a fascinating story Stripey77. Thank you for sharing. It's quite a sad story also. Can you imagine a doctor who specialises in a certain illness then finds out he has that illness. Hopefully he can recover for his own sake.

[flourdust]

Fr4nz,

It's very embarrassing for me to admit, but I saw red flags waving from the start and decided to plunge ahead with my self-destruction nonetheless.  Perhaps I should qualify something: My PhD is in Industrial and Organizational Psychology (I put companies  "on the couch",  and my Masters before that was in Clinical.  Perhaps if I had gone on in Clinical I would have been more resistant, but one thing this has done is illuminate my OWN issues quite nicely.  I'm more of a cognitive-behavior person and less of a psychodynamic person, but in truth this relationship has allowed me to re-enact the drama of having a NPD dad and a codependent mom, so at some level it was "irresistible" to my unconscious.  I've also been drawn to fixing things all my life (even now the most enjoyable part of my work is career and academic guidance for my students!) so the waif in him was a magnet for me.

To offer up another data point, I have basically the exact same background, and I also was completely blind to what was happening in my own relationship. I was vaguely familiar with personality disorders from long-ago academic training, but that didn't translate into evaluating my own life critically. Until it was too late.

[UnforgivenII]

I apologize to Chillamom and Flourdust. I did not mean to hurt you or to accuse you. So sorry if I did. I just find it so unfair. She phoned him 10 times a day they were so close. And I was the jealous crazy one. And I simply wonder why he kept his rages, throwing things and disrespect only for me. She never saw anything of this.

Well now she probably will.

[chillamom]

UnforgivenII,

No offense taken in the slightest, and none even perceived.  I hope things are a tad better with you today!

It's interesting that the more I learn, the more it seems a lot of on on this board were very well educated in the "signs and symptoms" of PDs, at either a professional or a self-taught level.  It amazes me that many of us can see the red flags a'wavin' and blow right past them.  I personally think (for me) that I believed my ability to "help him" was sufficient to "love him back to health".  Damn, was I wrong.  An 8 year long trip down the rabbit hole and still trying to claw my way back.  Education doesn't mean much when the brain is on overdrive with the love drug.  I'm not a neuroscientist by training, but I certainly have a great deal of awe and a bit of fear for what that chemical factory between our ears can do to our good sense!  I was completely hijacked.

[chillamom]

flourdust, maybe there's a publication in the midst of all this, .  I'm always looking to spin straw into gold, and hey, grant writing season is upon me.  Seriously, having an academic background doesn't do much more than give you an... .academic background.  I actually stood in front of my Psych of Women and Cultural Experiences class last semester and lectured about domestic abuse, completely aware of the fact that I was a victim of the emotional and verbal variety for YEARS.  Well, when people ask me why "people just can't leave", I guess the relative safely of tenure means that I can share some personal insights next time if I'm brave enough.

[flourdust]

I apologize to Chillamom and Flourdust. I did not mean to hurt you or to accuse you. So sorry if I did. I just find it so unfair. She phoned him 10 times a day they were so close. And I was the jealous crazy one. And I simply wonder why he kept his rages, throwing things and disrespect only for me. She never saw anything of this.

Well now she probably will.

I don't feel hurt or accused in the slightest. I accuse myself of missing obvious signs. 

[woundedPhoenix]

Education doesn't mean much when the brain is on overdrive with the love drug.  I'm not a neuroscientist by training, but I certainly have a great deal of awe and a bit of fear for what that chemical factory between our ears can do to our good sense!  I was completely hijacked.

And what triggered that chemical factory? What made that Red Flags were dismissed lovingly? What caused us to overstay our welcome to the point of abuse?

I think before anything else, they activated a pattern deep inside us, they activated a promise and a potential to fill holes inside our soul that we may not even have been consciously aware of

[flourdust]

flourdust, maybe there's a publication in the midst of all this, .  I'm always looking to spin straw into gold, and hey, grant writing season is upon me.

I'm not sure if publishing this would count as therapy for me.

Seriously, having an academic background doesn't do much more than give you an... .academic background. 

True enough. My expertise in perceptual and cognitive biases doesn't make me immune to them. But I can do post hoc analysis with the best of 'em.

[pjstock42]

Education doesn't mean much when the brain is on overdrive with the love drug.  I'm not a neuroscientist by training, but I certainly have a great deal of awe and a bit of fear for what that chemical factory between our ears can do to our good sense!  I was completely hijacked.

And what triggered that chemical factory? What made that Red Flags were dismissed lovingly? What caused us to overstay our welcome to the point of abuse?

I think before anything else, they activated a pattern deep inside us, they activated a promise and a potential to fill holes inside our soul that we may not even have been consciously aware of

I think you make a good point here. Before the relationship with my BPD ex gf, I had lots of relationship "experience" including a couple that were very long term yet with this person, she made me feel a way that I had never felt before. I didn't know that relationships could be so powerful, so intoxicating and seemingly so perfect. I couldn't believe how lucky I was to have found this person and no one I had ever been with in the past compared to what we had during the good times but unfortunately, also in the bad. If anything this relationship was one painful & long drawn out lesson to prove the old adage that "if it seems to good to be true, it probably is".

[Mutt]

Hi Unforgiven II,

We're speculating that he may not know that she has a PD, maybe he does know and is willing to work with it. Regardless, your out of the fire and he's in the fire now.

[gotbushels]

  everyone. Thank you for your contributions on this thread. Reading is has given me unexpected feelings of relief. 

It's very embarrassing for me to admit, but I saw red flags waving from the start and decided to plunge ahead with my self-destruction nonetheless. 

chillamom and  flourdust , and others, have you seen Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist? chillamom and flourdust you guys were talking about publication and this came to mind. I think it's very good. I don't want to hijack the thread so please PM me or post there if you'd like to chit-chat about it.   

[chillamom]

Hi, gotbushels, thanks for the recommendation, and yes, indeed I do have this book.  It's one of the things, in addition to this board, that I turn to on a frequent basis just to make sure that I'm handling things (or contemplating handling things) as realistically as possible.  Unfortunately, I still have that head/heart dichotomy going on, but this is a great little book indeed!

[Pretty Woman]

I was the replacement for a renowned prison psychologist. This woman works with murderers and rehabilitates criminals who re-enter into society.

She could not make it work with my ex.

When I met my ex I was told this dr. was a sex addict who she filed a restraining order against. Within months my ex was calling this woman asking her for "electrical help" when a circuit blew in my home.

BPD's are liars and Facebook is their ideal venue for distorting facts and creating their "reality".

Do not for one minute believe your ex has miraculously changed. This person just hasn't triggered her yet. I had the opportunity of meeting three of my ex's exes and she cheated on ALL of them, multiple times. Some of them still talk to her.

All are enablers with bad self esteem. My ex ghosted me completely but has slandered me just as the others. I won't contribute to her hurting more people by ever friending her. I will not accept deplorable behavior.

As much as this hurts, and trust me... .it still hurts years later... .you are better off without this. Try not to focus on the new person. This isn't the love of her life... .it's just another object for her to toy with until she gets bored.

Keep in mind... .he is a councelor and what do councelors do? They try to guide, help and fix. In some ways they are the
"professional" versions of us: caregivers.

Keep in mind the end result is always the same. It doesn't matter if you are rich, thin, beautiful, poor or educated... .
the BPD just destroys. They are very non-discriminate. Work on getting stronger. You are already strong having survived this relationship.

 
PW

[flourdust]

chillamom and  flourdust , and others, have you seen Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist? chillamom and flourdust you guys were talking about publication and this came to mind. I think it's very good. I don't want to hijack the thread so please PM me or post there if you'd like to chit-chat about it.   

Yes, it was one of the first books I read about BPD relationships. Very eye-opening.

[Reforming]

I think a lot those who work in psychology and counselling were initially drawn to the profession because they were trying resolve issues of their own. I think that's perfectly understandable.

But there's a huge difference between treating a patient in a professional relationship with clearly defined boundaries (which protect both parties and prioritise the vulnerable persons) and being in romantic relationship with someone who wants to be healed (or who you want to heal).

The latter doesn't end well which is why transference - the process where patients believe they're in love with their counsellor is one of the biggest challenges in treating borderlines. There's enough complexity involved already without adding a romantic attachment and all the potential confusion it would bring and it's almost impossible to remain objective this happens.

Reforming

[chillamom]

Reforming, I couldn't agree more.  And THAT is the reason why I chose an academic/research career in Industrial Psychology rather than pursue Clinical work at a doctoral level.  Given my FOO issues and such, I judged that I would be MUCH better suited for the classroom and consulting than I was to the proverbial "couch" (which doesn't really exist in most cases, but you know what I mean).  I guess for some of us that draw toward "fixing" was too strong to resist (and I realize its a helluva lot more complex!) in our personal lives, but professionally?  Gonna stick with my lectures and statistics and research stuff... .I'm way better off!