Entitlement

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

My BPD stbexw thought she was entitled to do what ever she wants. her view is as long as she doesn't see anything wrong with it it is ok. I have begged pleaded reasoned and tried to explain just because it is ok with her does not mean it isn't hurting me. Is this normal that she doesn't care?

[lost not dead]

My BPD stbexw thought she was entitled to do what ever she wants. her view is as long as she doesn't see anything wrong with it it is ok. I have begged pleaded reasoned and tried to explain just because it is ok with her does not mean it isn't hurting me. Is this normal that she doesn't care?

[waitaminute]

It is normal that she doesn't see it as a high priority. It doesn't trump her needs of living in the moment.

[Elsegundo]

Have you read up on Borderline narcissism?  The "why" of it is different than general narcissism in that they usually can't deal with other people's stuff/priorities during the times when they are so absorbed with their own awful internal feelings, but the feeling on the receiving end is the same as general narcissism.  It stinks.

[SeekerofTruth]

Hey there,

It is neither normal nor healthy that someone we are close to "does not care" when we attempt to explain and reason with them that what they are doing is hurtful to us.

For PDs it is extremely challenging and difficult for them to consider and take to heart:

the negative impact that their decisions and behavior has upon others.

Empathy is impaired, derailed, fleeting, absent, or otherwise challenged.

Denial is a hallmark.

Reminder: Characteristics of Healthy Relationships

https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a115.htm

[ChrisJ31]

And they are just plain selfish as well.

When I got the boot, all of a sudden every question I asked was ' non of my business anymore '

After 6 years of my love, support, carrying her etc etc.

I understand now why they cannot grasp how there actions hurt and destroy partners, family and friends, it's a knock on effect not just the dumpee who feels it.

It makes it slightly easier to deal with once all the anger has gone.

[imstronghere2]

My BPD stbexw thought she was intitled to do what ever she wants. her view is as long as she doesnt see anything wrong with it it is ok. I have begged pleaded reasoned and tryed to explain just because it is ok with her does not mean it isnt hurting me. Is this normal that she doesn't care?

Echoing everyone else, yes pretty much.  I've learned that since they have no empathy, they have no idea that what they're doing will have a bad impact on you.  My exw said about her affair "I didn't think you'd care".   Really.  In fact, long before I found out about her affair she had asked me what I would do if she ever cheated and I clearly stated how badly it would effect me.  So, even with the full knowledge that specific actions done will have a severe adverse effect, she still did it and claimed ignorance.  No sense whatsoever.

[bpdspell]

My BPD stbexw thought she was entitled to do what ever she wants. her view is as long as she doesn't see anything wrong with it it is ok. I have begged pleaded reasoned and tried to explain just because it is ok with her does not mean it isn't hurting me. Is this normal that she doesn't care?

Hey Lost,



It is very common for those with BPD to be extremely self-absorbed. It is a part of the disease of BPD and their narcissism. They are emotionally stunted children which creates a relationship dynamic of us being the parent and them being the unruly child. The entitlement is not to spite us. The entitlement is their blindspot because they're mentally ill. People with BPD can be very needy, empty and will do anything to fill this emptiness unfortunately at the expense of our feelings. It isn't personal; they do this with anyone who comes close. When we don't feed into their entitilements and demands they have tantrums as a part of the devaluation process. I'm sorry that you've had to experience this confusing behavior.

Here's a link so you can better understand how the borderline relationship evolves:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-borderline-relationship-evolves

Spell

[gina louise]

lost not dead,

It's very common behavior. I guess you gathered that by now.

But it's only "normal" for BPD (w/NPD traits) or other disordered persons. Most others have their empathy intact and working. And they can learn to be more empathic-with long term therapy.

Think of them as emotionally stunted.

Their bodies grew, their brains grew but the part that regulates outward facing emotions-caring, empathy, sharing, giving, that part is the size of a shriveled up pea.(unless they are acting to mirror another)

While the part that works emotionally IN-wards-that can focus on THEMthemthem is taking over half their brain and running the whole show.

It's a painful and stunning realization that your mate, your spouse, cares as much for your feelings as they care for a stranger that crossed the street 3 blocks down. Which is not much.

It's happened to me many times.

GL

[GreenMango]

The disorder has some common characteristics.  The scale for the impairments is a 0 (healthy) to 4 (severly impaired) on empathy, intimacy, self direction, and identity.  Along with this:

The DSM-5, due out in 2013, is anticipated to bring a number of changes to the definition of the personality disorders.  As I understand it, the working group is trying to do away with the complex multiaxial diagnostic approach and to make the personality disorders more discrete (less overlap) - basically the Axes I, II, III will be consolidated to one -- the 10 personality disorders will be reduced to 6 -- and PD will be "scored" on a rating system based on severity.

The basic DSM 5 description is actually simpler than the DSM-IV - it will look something like this (note: no 5/9 criteria)

1 Impairments  The must be impairments in self functioning AND impairments in interpersonal functioning (more on this later)

2 Negative Affectivity, characterized by:

• Emotional lability: Unstable emotional experiences and frequent mood changes; emotions that are easily aroused, intense, and/or out of proportion to events and circumstances.

• Anxiousness: Intense feelings of nervousness, tenseness, or panic, often in reaction to interpersonal stresses; worry about the negative effects of past unpleasant experiences and future negative possibilities; feeling fearful, apprehensive, or threatened by uncertainty; fears of falling apart or losing control.

• Separation insecurity: Fears of rejection by – and/or separation from – significant others, associated with fears of excessive dependency and complete loss of autonomy.

• Depressivity: Frequent feelings of being down, miserable, and/or hopeless; difficulty recovering from such moods; pessimism about the future; pervasive shame; feeling of inferior self-worth; thoughts of suicide and suicidal behavior.

3 Disinhibition, characterized by:

• Impulsivity: Acting on the spur of the moment in response to immediate stimuli; acting on a momentary basis without a plan or consideration of outcomes; difficulty establishing or following plans; a sense of urgency and self-harming behavior under emotional distress.

• Risk taking: Engagement in dangerous, risky, and potentially self-damaging activities, unnecessarily and without regard to consequences; lack of concern for one’s limitations and denial of the reality of personal danger.

4 Hostility:  Persistent or frequent angry feelings; anger or irritability in response to minor slights and insults.

Reading the clinical stuff makes it a little difficult to recognize what that would look like in real life.

Can you see some of the entitlement in the lack of empathy?

[blurry]

 The depressitivity, could sleeping way more than normal be a major symptom of that? Last time i moved back in with her, she would go to bed by 10 or  11, sleep till 6:45, to send the kids off to school, then sleep from 8 to noon or 1 or so? Well, i wouldnt say sleep exactly, she'd switch to the couch in her PJs and under a blanket and be trying to sleep at least, while her 3 year old watched movies. And based on the fact she had broke up with me for 3 weeks and slept with her ex the prior month, i took it as a reflection on how she was feeling about me, like she was avoiding me somehow.

I know I definitely became hypersensitive our last go-round but just wondering if that much sleeping/trying to sleep is related. I never saw someone sleep as much as she did our last 5 weeks together, and the sex went from 13 times in 9 nights right before that breakup (that was somewhat normal up to that point), to 3 or 4 times total, in the first 3 weeks after she begged me to come back. That threw me for a loop too, not so much the act itself, but the way it shifted from hot to cold so dramatically is what surprised me.

[gina louise]

Emotional lability: My HUSBAND would be relating something very bad, dreadful-like his kid flunking out of school or the deaths of his parents yet he would be half-smiling through the conversation. Or he would talk about how happy he was eating waffles for breakfast... and start to cry! ANY talk of my feelings would end in him yelling furiously at me.


Anxiousness:  He went to a new job or an interview as if he was going before a firing squad. Even after months on the job his anxiety persisted. And he was highly skilled and well liked at work. Fretted over everything. Made me proofread his work, at times.

Separation insecurity  He cried when I visited him in a distant city, when I got off the plane he was in tears. we had only been apart 2 weeks! Wanted me with him ALL the time. I felt like a human pacifier.

Depressivity   Morose and negative described his normal every day mood. Always down and exhausted.(unless HIS friends called) Zoned out with TV... .  hours of it.

Impulsivity   Erratic spending, hasty and life altering decisions based on fantasy, little to no discussion of potential risks or outcomes. Made and then cancelled plans on a whim-no matter who was affected.

Hostility:   Continually angry, irritable, liable to rage-whether provoked or not.

that was my H.

GL

[Wimowe]

When I called my uBPDxgf out on doing something hurtful, she would be upset that I was upset, but often didn't seem to understand why I found a particular action of hers hurtful.  And she wasn't upset with herself for doing something hurtful. 

[myself]

My exSOupwBPDgf would use (project) the word 'entitled' to describe ME, even though it was more than obvious (by her own proclamations alone) that SHE was the one who was feeling it, everything having to go her way. For awhile, I helped her live it, even though 'her way' kept changing and it was damaging to myself. The way she USED entitlement (PD or not) helped break us apart and make sure we would not last as a couple.

[SeekerofTruth]

Also, doing whatever she wants as long as she doesn't see anything wrong with it, without consideration of the hurtful impact it has upon others, characterizes the self-absorption- all about me - whatever ever I want, as well as psychological immaturity (regressed child within disorderd adult ).

[GreenMango]

So here's the DSM 5 scale of interpersonal functioning for empathy

Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or

b):

a. Empathy: Compromised ability to recognize

the feelings and needs of others associated

with interpersonal hypersensitivity (i.e.,

prone to feel slighted or insulted);

perceptions of others selectively biased

toward negative attributes or

vulnerabilities.

And here's the scale of empathy... .  If you were to pinpoint where your ex was on this scale what number and why/how/what actions spoke to the lack of empathy?

Below is the scale for "empathy".  There are four scales in total (identity, self direction, empathy, intimacy).  To me, it is facinating to see "empathy" defined in such clear terms.

Healthy (0) Capable of accurately understanding others’ experiences and motivations in most situations. Comprehends and appreciates others’ perspectives, even if disagreeing.  Is aware of the effect of own actions on others.

Mild impairment (1) Somewhat compromised in ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences; may tend to see others as having unreasonable expectations or a wish for control. Although capable of considering and understanding different perspectives, resists doing so. Inconsistent is awareness of effect of own behavior on others.

Impaired (2) Hyper-attuned to the experience of others, but only with respect to perceived relevance to self. Excessively self-referential; significantly compromised ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences and to consider alternative perspectives. Generally unaware of or unconcerned about effect of own behavior on others, or unrealistic appraisal of own effect.

Very Impaired (3) Ability to consider and understand the thoughts, feelings and behavior of other people is significantly limited; may discern very specific aspects of others’ experience, particularly vulnerabilities and suffering.  Generally unable to consider alternative perspectives; highly threatened by differences of opinion or alternative viewpoints. Confusion or unawareness of impact of own actions on others; often bewildered about peoples’ thoughts and actions, with destructive motivations frequently misattributed to others.

Extreme Impairment (4)  Pronounced inability to consider and understand others’ experience and motivation. Attention to others' perspectives virtually absent (attention is hypervigilant, focused on need-fulfillment and harm avoidance).  Social interactions can be confusing and disorienting.

[gina louise]

GM,

My HUSBAND was a solid 3.

He consistently "misread" other people and attributed motives to them that were conspicuously absent-given their behavior. Very odd. I once accused him of having Asperger's on this basis alone. Apart from myself, my HUSBAND did see others sufferings as legitimate and cause for concern. But in a fleeting manner. Highly threatened by a conflicting viewpoint that did not somehow mesh with his own-at some point. So if I disliked the service but not the delicious food at a restaurant he chose for us... he could hold it together-as there was some common ground. But if my opinion differed markedly... I was in trouble. Very prone to feel slighted, and would drop a friend over a perceived slight, without talking to his friend. perhaps ever again.

He was also prone to be obnoxiously fixated on things that other's said and would bring them up repeatedly.

GL

[Mistified247]

My ex was a solid 3 as well. She constantly took things people said as some kind of direct attack on her, and she frequently had rages about this. She refused to see the other side of the story (i.e the actual side.)

She always disagreed with peoples opinions and ended up enforcing her opinions onto me, which I actually disagreed with yet found myself saying them?

I also had the clinger thing, whereby I often cancelled my plans so that I could go and see/look after her. Always running around after her, and dropping everything at my own expense. Whereas if I ever wanted something it was very rarely acknowledged. It really is confusing. You end up seriously psychologically damaged after these dealings.

[just me.]

I have begged pleaded reasoned and tried to explain just because it is ok with her does not mean it isn't hurting me. Is this normal that she doesn't care?

I think this is definitely normal for someone with BPD.  I think it all kind of makes in the context of the condition:

She does something terrible (and crazy and selfish and hurtful) because she really is genuinely sick, and her methods of using reality to determine her subsequent actions is systematically flawed.  But, of course, she doesn't realize she's sick... .  and so that leaves only three basic ways she can interpret her own behavior (that I can see, anyway):

1)  What she did must not actually be terrible.

2)  It's a unique circumstance because you actually deserved it.

3)  She's just a terrible person.

In my experience, my exBPDw could easily interpret her behavior in any of these three ways, and she would often seem to do two or three of them at once (in manic fits).  That creates the classic "I hate you, I'm sorry, leave me alone, I don't want to talk about it, I'm terrible, but you're worse and it's your fault, and it's none of your concern" kind of encounter I think most of us have had.

In the midst of all this inner turmoil and anguish (and perhaps momentary struggles to maintain one's certainty of their sanity), your pain simply isn't part of the thought process other than in abstraction.  In her most "sympathetic" moments, it is more about her acknowledging that she is terrible than in her realizing the pain it causes.  Her feeling like a terrible person is now the actual issue at hand, and she can't believe you're not doing more to make her feel better.

It sucks.

[johnnyonthespot]

Just me,

You expressed that beautifully. Exactly so. Bravo!