We're going to couples therapy / How do I set things up in 1st session?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I broke up with my uBPDbf after he pulled some outrageous behavior, gaslighting, etc for the umpteenth time. I had just reached the limit of what I could tolerate after 4 yrs of this and said it was over. After several emails, he said wanted to try to work things out and this time, after 4 years of recycling, I finally set a boundary and said the only way I would do it is if we went to couples therapy to learn how to better communicate and be a better couple. I clarified that I would only do it if he was willing to meet me halfway and do the work. Which he agreed to, saying he values our relationship and that if we do it and it works, it would have been worth the effort and if it doesn't at least we both tried...

He really endured horrible trauma as a kid--severe beatings and abuse by dad, mom committed suicide, sent away to boarding school at a young age, etc--and I really think he may have complex PTSD instead of (or in addition to?) BPSD, but I leave that to the professionals to diagnose. Bottom line is a lot of what I read here resonates to a scary degree. I'm very sympathetic toward him, and my heart breaks for all he's endured. In his heart of hearts, he's a good man and I know he loves me and is loyal to me. He's just never learned to shed those habits that he used to survive. At the same time I am sympathetic toward myself and know that none of my needs are getting met at this point, and I will no longer tolerate gaslighting, indirect communication or angry outbursts (which then result in me having angry outbursts). I also had a rough childhood but have seen and continue to talk to a therapist.

So how can I set things up in a way that promotes healing, not divisiveness? How can I tell the truth in a tactful way? In a way that preserves both our dignity? I did some yelling and cursing myself which I'm not proud of and will own up to. But I just have kept quiet for so long that it's all bubbling over and I can't contain it anymore. Advice, please? Thanks.

[honeybadger]

I broke up with my uBPDbf after he pulled some outrageous behavior, gaslighting, etc for the umpteenth time. I had just reached the limit of what I could tolerate after 4 yrs of this and said it was over. After several emails, he said wanted to try to work things out and this time, after 4 years of recycling, I finally set a boundary and said the only way I would do it is if we went to couples therapy to learn how to better communicate and be a better couple. I clarified that I would only do it if he was willing to meet me halfway and do the work. Which he agreed to, saying he values our relationship and that if we do it and it works, it would have been worth the effort and if it doesn't at least we both tried...

He really endured horrible trauma as a kid--severe beatings and abuse by dad, mom committed suicide, sent away to boarding school at a young age, etc--and I really think he may have complex PTSD instead of (or in addition to?) BPSD, but I leave that to the professionals to diagnose. Bottom line is a lot of what I read here resonates to a scary degree. I'm very sympathetic toward him, and my heart breaks for all he's endured. In his heart of hearts, he's a good man and I know he loves me and is loyal to me. He's just never learned to shed those habits that he used to survive. At the same time I am sympathetic toward myself and know that none of my needs are getting met at this point, and I will no longer tolerate gaslighting, indirect communication or angry outbursts (which then result in me having angry outbursts). I also had a rough childhood but have seen and continue to talk to a therapist.

So how can I set things up in a way that promotes healing, not divisiveness? How can I tell the truth in a tactful way? In a way that preserves both our dignity? I did some yelling and cursing myself which I'm not proud of and will own up to. But I just have kept quiet for so long that it's all bubbling over and I can't contain it anymore. Advice, please? Thanks.

[Turtlegal]

I began my therapy first to make sure MY perceptions were right, and discuss with therapist how to approach him. It takes awhile for BPD to trust the therapist, so  be warned it might not seem too serious the first meets. A good therapist knows how to start the session with some background-which you provide during 1st meet, or alone once prior like I did. Expect usual denial, and he might squirm or leave when things/topics get tough. Mine walked out and never went back. I took that as not caring, but it was his fear to show his vulnerable side.

[SickofMe]

I don't have an answer for you, but will be watching this thread bc my guy has agreed to go to r/s counseling with me, as well.  I could not believe he'd do it.  I'm not sure my motivation isn't to get him to seek his own therapy but whatever.

Ultimately, the goal of couples therapy is to help each partner empathize with the other.  Your BF will struggle with this when he's feeling defensive and a trust (in the therapist, and the process) will take time to establish.  I'd almost be tempted to ask for a commitment to X number of sessions.

In couples counseling, too, the idea is that the "relationship is the client/patient."  I'm wondering what that's going to look like when the r/s seems to be centered around ONE PERSON and his needs.  Maybe a goal of therapy, then, will be to allow the other person and her needs to be considered as equally legitimate--an empathic connection, perhaps?

I wish you well.  I don't know about you, but the idea of going to counseling w my BF makes me very, very nervous.  And I'm not the least bit uninitiated as to the therapeutic process.  I think it will be very important to find a T who has both really strong empathy skills and strong boundaries, and that is a rare find.

[empathic]

Here is another one who will start couples therapy with his pwBPD. Like you @SickofMe I am also very nervous about it.

With the help of this board and seeing a T for myself I feel prepared for it in some ways, but in other ways not at all. I'm afraid that I will be seen as the problem. I'm also afraid of how my wife will react, especially after the sessions.

I'm hoping that we can have one-on-one sessions fairly soon in the process, so I can explain how I've experienced things.

[honeybadger]

I want to say that it is about both of us. I have played a role in this, too. I also have things to learn. But one thing I have realized is that I have been enabling some of his destructive behaviors by shutting down, being submissive, etc. It's just so toxic--to me, to the relationship, to him -- and I have to stop. I really want this to work out. He can be super rational when he is not triggered. So I am hoping for the best. But given the past, I am expecting the worst. I have run through every possible scenario of how it could play out in my head and I'm scared. It's tomorrow. Please send good thoughts. And if someone (a moderator?) could offer advice on how to set the tone positively I would appreciate it! (I think how it's set up could have a deep affect on the outcome.)

[SickofMe]

It's tomorrow. Please send good thoughts.

Please share if you can!  I would imagine the first session will be more "intake" in nature but hope you will be able to get a sense of the T's chops. 

Vicariously nervous.  Sending lots of courage vibes.

[honeybadger]

Thanks, SOM. I am scared  

[empathic]

I'm sending good thoughts your way. Hopefully it can be the start of something new.

[empathic]

How did it go?

We've been to our session. It wasn't as bad as I had expected it to be. I liked how the therapist switched focus between each of us, giving me (and her) the chance to speak uninterrupted.

A disappointment was that he didn't mention speaking to us in individual sessions, something I had hoped for.

I didn't really like how I was made out to totally lack a way of expressing myself emotionally, while my wife was described as very emotional. It did give the T something to work with, but I don't think it's that black and white at all.

But the overall feeling after the session was that I learned some things about both myself and her, which is a good thing (and it seemed like she did too). Some things were said that would never have been said without the T in the room.

[honeybadger]

Hi Empathic:

Before going, I played out every possible scenario of how it could go in my head so I was prepared mentally. That said, it went better than expected. (Glad to hear yours did, too!) I greeted him in the waiting room, after not seeing him or talking to him for 9 days, with a hug. I wanted to try to set it up as non-threatening about "us" not him. (Which it truly is about. I play a part, too.)

Like you said, at least we both got a chance to speak uninterrupted & we both covered things that hard to talk about. It felt "safer" to say what I thought before a neutral party. BF came across (to me) almost as arrogant & painted us being there almost as a character flaw in me: "I already know what I need to do. Other people just can't handle my moods. And I have to say what I want." (Ironically, he's kinda spot on... .but it's not quite that easy!)

He expressed his skepticism about T, was defensive. And he alluded to thinking it was silly for us to be in therapy just for the fights we had, which led me to see he is utterly clueless about how unacceptable I find some of his behaviors & how unvalued, stressed out and scared I feed when he exhibits them. I mean, I broke up with him & said I would only reconcile if we went to T and I meant it. The T pressed him about if he was committed to being there, and he said, "I wouldn't be here if I didn't want to be," which is true. Actions speak loudest. He was closed up like a clam, but he was there and I could see he was trying. It meant a lot.

He did eventually recant never forgiving me for something outrageous he had codependently blamed me for. And I think he did finally  understand, at least to a small degree, that when he tries to act as a people pleaser and not communicate his own needs, it ends up really hurting everyone.

If you ask your T about individual sessions, too, I am sure he will offer them down the road. In fact, I think that's pretty normal. Ours will do it too, eventually. 

I didn't really like how I was made out to totally lack a way of expressing myself emotionally, while my wife was described as very emotional. It did give the T something to work with, but I don't think it's that black and white at all.

As far as that goes, I think it will take time. The first session, for me anyway, was hard because you want to cram so much into 45-60 minutes. But it will take time to unravel. I wish you the best of luck and would love to keep hearing how it goes! Our next session is in 2 weeks because of the Thanksgiving holiday next week. Happy holidays!

[empathic]

Hello Honeybadger!

I'm glad that it went better than expected for you too, and that you made some progress.

We have the next session in two weeks also. The T said he doesn't work with "homework", instead there can be some confrontations during the sessions. Sounds OK to me, as talking about the r/s at home almost always escalates into an argument.

I thought my wife was OK with that too, but after she slept badly one night during the weekend she brought up that she wanted us to schedule a time for us to talk before the next session. I said I don't think that's a good idea, that it's too early and that maybe we should follow the T's plan. She was upset by that.

It's also the way she brings those things up. I can see the coming dysregulation in her eyes and hear it in her voice, which immediately triggers my anxiety. I don't really know how to communicate that to the T, but as you say individual sessions might come later.

Take care!

[honeybadger]

I thought my wife was OK with that too, but after she slept badly one night during the weekend she brought up that she wanted us to schedule a time for us to talk before the next session. I said I don't think that's a good idea, that it's too early and that maybe we should follow the T's plan. She was upset by that.

Empathic,

That sounds like a classic BPD reaction to me. She wants to try to control the situation & probably now feels out of control... .her behaviors are being questioned. Hey, yours probably are too--Ts try to remain neutral. But she is probably unraveled by the fear of being explosed, abandoned, and the shame, etc? Just my guess.

Things have been weird btwn BF and me since T, but calm. I said Wednesday after T that I wanted to try to get back to normal and we usually do things on w/ends. T said it was fine as long as we save discussion about the r/s for T. So he made a restaurant reservation for Friday evening. Then at 2pm I got a text from him saying we could skip dinner if I'd rather wait. I asked if he was trying to say he'd rather wait. He said no & that he just thought I might think we needed more T first. What do you think that was about? I just found that whole exchange odd.

In the end, I said I wanted to go and we went and said an okay time. It was a little odd, but I changed the rules so it's going to be. It was not unpleasant but neither of us were relaxed.

[empathic]

That sounds like a classic BPD reaction to me. She wants to try to control the situation & probably now feels out of control... .her behaviors are being questioned. Hey, yours probably are too--Ts try to remain neutral. But she is probably unraveled by the fear of being explosed, abandoned, and the shame, etc? Just my guess.

I think you're right. She's very much about control. She doesn't like for me to have too many options. Now she claims that she sleeps very badly every night because she's "worried". I would probably have more sympathy with that if it weren't for the countless nights I've spent with anxiety due to her behavior... .

I think the T quite quickly caught onto something though as he spent maybe 70% of the time talking to her, and wondered why she was crying even when she was talking about things in the past that had a positive outcome. She couldn't really explain why. Actually she started crying at the first question the T asked, she's not very comfortable doing therapy. It will be interesting to see how the next session will turn out.

She told the T that she is an "emotional person" and that she thinks I never show my emotions. But I think there is a big difference between being an emotional person and not being able to regulate your emotions. The former I think would be a person that also has a lot of empathy for other people.

Things have been weird btwn BF and me since T, but calm. I said Wednesday after T that I wanted to try to get back to normal and we usually do things on w/ends. T said it was fine as long as we save discussion about the r/s for T. So he made a restaurant reservation for Friday evening. Then at 2pm I got a text from him saying we could skip dinner if I'd rather wait. I asked if he was trying to say he'd rather wait. He said no & that he just thought I might think we needed more T first. What do you think that was about? I just found that whole exchange odd.

In the end, I said I wanted to go and we went and said an okay time. It was a little odd, but I changed the rules so it's going to be. It was not unpleasant but neither of us were relaxed.

Sounds similar to my situation as every time me and my wife are alone together nowadays there's the feeling of "an elephant in the room". For example, she doesn't want us both to work at home together because she thinks it doesn't feel good due to the state our relationship is in. So I get anxious now as soon as its just the two of us, which is not good at all of course.

Have you talked to your BF since?

[honeybadger]

Yes, Empathic, he did come to support me in an event I participated in Sunday (a marathon). And he was super sweet. I trained very hard for months, had a great finish time and he seemed genuinely happy for me.

But then yesterday, I did not hear from him at all. Not a call. No email. No text. Nada. This is the bugaboo and this probably applies to your situation too as far as what you said about T:

Actually she started crying at the first question the T asked, she's not very comfortable doing therapy. It will be interesting to see how the next session will turn out.

:

I try to apply logic but logic falls out the window when trying to understand a person with BPD's emotions. What seems rational to most of us just does not seem to register with them. They experience emotions in an entirely different stratosphere.

During the big blow up a few weeks back, for example, uBPDBF said that since I have been training for the race (and I've been a serious runner since I've known him), there is no time for the r/s and that my running has "taken a toll" on the r/s. (He always pulls stuff like that before a big race of mine or some important thing I need to do for work.)

We do not live together. We see each other 2 nites during the weekend (not even full days) but we talk each night. I would like to see him a little more often but it's really his decision. As far as my running goes, I do 90% of it before work so it doesn't affect him one way or the other. One or two days on the weekend when we stay at his place or mine, I will get up early to run. By the time I get back to his place, he is either still sleeping or is up having coffee. Afterwards, I shower and we may go to brunch or we may do our own things. I just do not see the logic of how my running takes away from the r/s--but maybe I'm just not understanding something? Perhaps it's some form of abandonment fear manifesting itself? I'm just weary of trying to figure it out. But that really set me off, though--because I want to spend more time with him and get closer to him. He projected it all on me and then twisted the truth into a pretzel.

Classic gaslighting. Maddening.

And here I am, still trying. The real question is, what does that say about me? What are people like us getting from this? Do I really fear intimacy since I am so involved with someone who runs from it?

Does your wife gaslight and project? If yes, how do you deal with it?

[empathic]

Honeybadger,

congrats on being able to complete a marathon, that's great!

I recognize what you describe about his reaction to your exercising routine. Maybe it can be envy? I also started running in the mornings during the summer, I liked doing that when my wife was asleep. Made me feel less guilty (even though I shouldn't have to feel that way!)

But what happened was that my wife started taking morning walks with a friend of hers. We have kids that we don't want to leave alone in the house, so just one of us can go out like that. My wife stated that she wanted to do a walk like that _every_ day. No consideration at all for my exercise suffering. Hard to understand. I think at least part of what drives her to do that is envy.

At one time when I was participating in a race she got really angry in the morning about me not cleaning up "the mess" in our garage. It was mostly her stuff in there. But I think she just wanted to ruin my experience, and she succeeded.

Good question about what drives people like us to stay in the situation. A stubbornness in trying to find the key to solving the problem maybe? A (faulty) feeling of not deserving better?

Yes, she does both of those things (gaslighting, projection). I think I'm so used to them that I don't really care much these days, like a survival instinct. She often hints that I'm an "old man" when I'm doing sports. I'm 42 and don't feel old at all, and I don't know why she wants me to feel that way.

[SickofMe]

I just do not see the logic of how my running takes away from the r/s--but maybe I'm just not understanding something? Perhaps it's some form of abandonment fear manifesting itself?

Jumping in here bc this resonates, loudly.  Not that I'm a runner... . 

I think there is some dynamic where the pwBPD needs to feel they are at the center of your universe at all times.  Doing something that is entirely for yourself, even if it doesn't interfere with their routine or life in any tangible way= MAJOR THREAT.

A loving, secure partner would be happy when you take care of yourself.  I don't know the answer to fixing this, but I think keeping your healthy activities is important in about a million ways.  It's a boundary, isn't it?

[honeybadger]

Empathic,

My wife stated that she wanted to do a walk like that _every_ day. No consideration at all for my exercise suffering. Hard to understand. I think at least part of what drives her to do that is envy.

At one time when I was participating in a race she got really angry in the morning about me not cleaning up "the mess" in our garage. It was mostly her stuff in there. But I think she just wanted to ruin my experience, and she succeeded.

This totally resonates. It could be jealousy, or as SickofMe said, they could see it as a major threat. I think it also amplifies their own feelings of being stuck. A toxic cocktail, to say the least. It also sounds a bit controlling and manipulative to me. Is she willing to compromise? Take turns?

My BF was a very talented former triathlete which he gave up after getting married and having a child 26 yrs ago. Flash forward to now, after divorce, son is grown. Recently, he just stopped exercising, which is a shame bc I think it's very good for his moods not to mention health in general (as it is for all of us). But when I have the discipline to get up & go run 10 miles at 4:45 am, he says he is proud of me, but what I think after reading all of this is that it brings up feelings of shame about himself. He is still in great shape, goes to the gym, etc. But he is the "go big or go home" type so even though he is fitter than most men his age & looks 15 years younger & has a fabulous body, he still sees himself on a downward trajectory & a shadow of his former self. I wonder if my ambition only magnifies his lack of interest in what he used to excel at.

He has actually been my unofficial coach, & has helped me tremendously with my running--another reason why I find his behavior baffling. I realize that I put in the work, but with his help, I went from being pack fodder a few years ago to usually placing on the podium in my age group in many races. I think he feels both a vicarious sense of satisfaction from my running--because he coached me --combined with all those negative feelings I mentioned--shame, jealousy, fear. Very complicated to process.

She often hints that I'm an "old man" when I'm doing sports. I'm 42 and don't feel old at all, and I don't know why she wants me to feel that way.

This sounds like a projection to me. Maybe she feels old? I am 49 & honestly feel like I'm 30. My BF continually refers to himself as an old man and often calls me old. When he does that, I stop him and say "Speak for yourself. I feel 30!"

... .I think keeping your healthy activities is important in about a million ways.  It's a boundary, isn't it?

Yes it is, SickOfMe! Good point. It's something we do to take care of ourselves. Honestly, that's why I love running so much. It just erases everything--if only for awhile.

Thank you all for your help!

[Zon]

I think you're right. She's very much about control. She doesn't like for me to have too many options. Now she claims that she sleeps very badly every night because she's "worried". I would probably have more sympathy with that if it weren't for the countless nights I've spent with anxiety due to her behavior... .

Good point.  Same with me.  She would make me feel guilty as we got into bed and be asleep within minutes, but not I.  I would take 30 minutes minimum to get to sleep and wake early (before 5) due to the talk.

Combining an early comment of yours:

I didn't really like how I was made out to totally lack a way of expressing myself emotionally, while my wife was described as very emotional. It did give the T something to work with, but I don't think it's that black and white at all.

From reading some of you earlier comments, I would guess you may be similar to me in that regard.  When she gets on your case, do you lose expressiveness in you face?  I do that.  I think it was always there in me, but I rely on it with her.  I do have trouble expressing myself emotionally.  That does not mean you lack emotions at all.  Personally, I have to hold back emotions around my wife to avoid/prevent situations.

I think the T quite quickly caught onto something though as he spent maybe 70% of the time talking to her, and wondered why she was crying even when she was talking about things in the past that had a positive outcome. She couldn't really explain why. Actually she started crying at the first question the T asked, she's not very comfortable doing therapy. It will be interesting to see how the next session will turn out.

She told the T that she is an "emotional person" and that she thinks I never show my emotions. But I think there is a big difference between being an emotional person and not being able to regulate your emotions. The former I think would be a person that also has a lot of empathy for other people.

It could be both.  She could have a lot of empathy for others yet no ability to regulate any of her emotions (e.g., anger).

My wife has cried at nearly every session.  Once, she left the room crying near the end, so I talked with the MC for a little bit.

Things have been weird btwn BF and me since T, but calm. I said Wednesday after T that I wanted to try to get back to normal and we usually do things on w/ends. T said it was fine as long as we save discussion about the r/s for T. So he made a restaurant reservation for Friday evening. Then at 2pm I got a text from him saying we could skip dinner if I'd rather wait. I asked if he was trying to say he'd rather wait. He said no & that he just thought I might think we needed more T first. What do you think that was about? I just found that whole exchange odd.

In the end, I said I wanted to go and we went and said an okay time. It was a little odd, but I changed the rules so it's going to be. It was not unpleasant but neither of us were relaxed.

Sounds similar to my situation as every time me and my wife are alone together nowadays there's the feeling of "an elephant in the room". For example, she doesn't want us both to work at home together because she thinks it doesn't feel good due to the state our relationship is in. So I get anxious now as soon as its just the two of us, which is not good at all of course.

After months of MC, I have gotten a bit better with the elephant in the room.  It has shrank a bit.  That may be due to my own individual therapy.

[RunForest]

Hello,

I follow and read with great interest your conversation thread (for the reason that I find honeybadger and your man have raisonnance with my profile, and my BF's with your BF) . And I honor your courage of going to couples therapy and tell this experience here.

It's fun, but is it a coincidence that both of you honeybadger  and empathic are runners?

Though I feel that it is difficult to compare the symptoms of men with BPD and women with BPD for they have different symptoms, due as for me, to the inherent difference of the construction between a man and a woman and their different ways to apprehend sexuality and so on.

Here is an article that was interesting to me, that maybe you already know:

www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-almost-effect/201405/men-borderline-personality-disorder

It is the evocation of one couples therapy and I particularly noted:



"I’ve heard this same description of their childhood so many times from men with BPD that I’ve come to see is as a template for working with them. To put it simply, through therapy they need to change their stance in life from “being on the outside looking in”, to “being on the inside, looking out.” " Joseph Nowinski, Ph.D.

I personally think that people with BPD are above all human beings that we loved and who crossed our path for some personal reasons.

I wish you good luck in your therapies with your partners and I feel grateful for the people who told above about their experiences of couples therapy.