PART 2: Preparing for the inevitable

[mart555]

With the way she behaves, do you really feel confident to leave her the kids 50% of the time?   

[ForeverDad]

Getting a lawyer through work is better than nothing, surely getting consultations would be helpful, but the odds are that you may get only basic or generic help there.  About 85-90% of divorces are said to be between relatively normal people.  Many lawyers are adequate for such cases, comfortable with monitoring mediation attempts or negotiating settlements.  But those lawyers can be out of their depth with our sorts of cases... high conflict, oppressive demands, extreme ultimatums, endless delays, etc.

It has been commented that fathers can walk out of a divorce with less parenting authority and time.  There are multiple factors, among them are

• society's impression that mothers are always the better parent
• past assumptions such as the Tender Years doctrine favoring mothers
• fathers being convinced trying for more is futile and to walk away or not fight as hard for the children's best interests

The peer support here is excellent in being a sounding board for you, we've "been there and done that", we can share time-tested strategies that generally work, we are here even when you can't quickly get a response back from your lawyer or other professionals.

[kells76]

I still haven't contacted an attorney.  Basically I feel lost as to how to find one.  Any advice here?  There is a free legal advice contact through my work, I will call that number and see if they can help. 

   Good job thinking about calling that free work hotline. We have a similar thing at my work plus -- and maybe your HR department can help you with this -- a free 30 minute consultation with a L they retain through a benefits program. We'd never had to hire a L before, so just having SOMETHING to start with was really helpful.

Do you have any coworkers who went through a divorce? Think about picking their brains about which L's were helpful, even if it was their ex's L who came across as focused and "winning".

Just start with a list of 2-3 names. All you have to do is Google (or phone book!) their # and call. Often the receptionist can be a junior partner and can help with a LOT of your questions. The L we ended up working with actually personally answered a bunch of my questions on the first phone call, and I'm just the stepmom 

Then you'll have 2-3 people to compare. You'll get a sense of "Well, L1 costs less, but L2 seems way sharper and "on" to my W's behaviors".

One step at a time. You don't have to do all the research and get the "perfect" L before picking the 2-3 names. Just get one from work, one from a coworker, and then maybe on the phone with those guys, ask who they'd recommend if they were in your shoes.

Maybe start with one phone call during a lunch break at work. Have a pencil and paper handy. Budget ~30 min for one call, though it might be less. Eat a couple bites beforehand? You can do this! One step. 

[maxsterling]

OK - I found one law firm close to my work that says they handle high conflict and have a free 30 minute consult.  I will call this afternoon and schedule that soon.  No mater what direction I take I think that will be good information. 

I am not sure the legal advice helpline will be all that helpful in this case.  So I will just get consults with 3-4 lawyers, keep the info, and then decide from there.

Now W says she wants to try counseling again.  I don't think that is a bad idea no matter what the eventual outcome.  I just can't sit in the couselor's office again and be a doorstop.  It needs to be laid out in session #1 - I can't live with the verbal abuse and violence anymore. 

W also wants to take the kids somewhere to be "evaluated" for behavioral problems.  I am hoping that trained professionals can see what is going on.  How do I navigate this?  My gut says the behavioral problems are directly related to W's moods, anger, and violence.  W seems to think S is "on the spectrum".  What can I expect to happen if we take the kids to some kind of place to be evaluated? I am sure we will fill out some kind of questionaire, and they will watch the kids play.  Would I want to then contact them on my own to give my own account?  Would they take the lead here, suspect something, and get involved?  I just smell a bad situation here where W won't be honest about her behaviors.

[mart555]

Now W says she wants to try counseling again.  I don't think that is a bad idea no matter what the eventual outcome.  I just can't sit in the couselor's office again and be a doorstop.  It needs to be laid out in session #1 - I can't live with the verbal abuse and violence anymore. 

It's a trap.  Another cycle will begin.

W also wants to take the kids somewhere to be "evaluated" for behavioral problems.  I am hoping that trained professionals can see what is going on.  How do I navigate this?  My gut says the behavioral problems are directly related to W's moods, anger, and violence.  W seems to think S is "on the spectrum". 

The home environment isn't sane.  Of course it impacts the kids.  She'll play the therapists and will look like the perfect mom. 

[maxsterling]

The home environment isn't sane.  Of course it impacts the kids.  She'll play the therapists and will look like the perfect mom. 

The funny thing is - my wife when dysregulated will often comment that I have issues - that she thinks *I* am "on the spectrum" because I don't like loud noises and can't handle conflict.  Of course the "loud noises" are her screaming and cursing, and the "conflict" involves violence or violent language.  I have seen a P and a T, and brought those comments up with them.  Their response?  They see no evidence that I am "on the spectrum", and even if I were, they could not evaluate me because of the conflict and abuse at home.  In other words - too many stressful things going on to make a meaningful diagnosis.  They both also suggested that even if I was "on the spectrum" there would be no treatment they would recommend because I am a healthy (and happy) adult capable of taking care of my own needs. 

[formflier]

Now W says she wants to try counseling again.  I don't think that is a bad idea no matter what the eventual outcome.  I just can't sit in the couselor's office again and be a doorstop.  It needs to be laid out in session #1 - I can't live with the verbal abuse and violence anymore. 
 

Maxsterling,

Given where your head is on this.  I would say YES to this and commit yourself to be honest about what you are experiencing in the home.

It's fine for people to be evaluated..as long as ALL are evaluated. 

My understanding of your wife is that she won't be able to keep up a facade. 

What do you think?

Best,

FF

[mart555]

The funny thing is - my wife when dysregulated will often comment that I have issues - that she thinks *I* am "on the spectrum" because I don't like loud noises and can't handle conflict.  Of course the "loud noises" are her screaming and cursing, and the "conflict" involves violence or violent language.  I have seen a P and a T, and brought those comments up with them.  Their response?  They see no evidence that I am "on the spectrum",

Don't worry about that.  Many of them say things like that.  Seriously, look into the "stop caretaking" book, there are many other things like that that your wife does that you may not have realized.  

[livednlearned]

If she wants to have the kids evaluated, make sure you are part of choosing who they see.

Signs of a bad psychologist:

* agrees to do the evaluation without the consent of both parents
* agrees to do the evaluation without the participation of both parents

Ask around, find 3 that are excellent, and let her choose the one she wants to go with. That will at least make sure she doesn't whisk them off to a therapist who gets snowed by her. She won't have an easy time taking responsibility, like you mentioned. It will all be genetic based, or somehow your fault (like you are on the spectrum, etc.)

Or, put the responsibility on her to find 3, then tell her you will take a look and go with the one you think is best, most reasonably priced, etc.

 

[maxsterling]

I met with a home buyer today - the number he gave was *much* less than I expected.  A number so low that about all the cash I could get would only cover lawyer fees and moving expenses.  I'm a bit bummed by that.  I was hoping for enough that could cover the rent for two residences for about a year.  I will speak and meet with other buyers, but I was trying to avoid the stress and time involved putting the house on the market.

Last night again was brutal.  I feel better that I was recording the volitility on my phone.  I came close to calling 911 - but I don't unless I know W will be either arrested or taken to a mental hospital.  I already know she won't be taken to a hospital unless she makes suicidal statements in front of responders.  And I don't know if a bunch of screaming and cursing and name calling in front of the kids is enough to prosecute.  So, I left the house for a few hours per Ws insistance.  Her anger is mostly at me, not the kids, so I feel if I leave it will give the kids a little temporary peace.  S2 seems pretty scared of her, though.  He clings on to me, and cries every time W raises her voice.  W doesn't see it that way, though...

[kells76]

What would it be like if you took the kids with you when you "took a break" from being at home?

[formflier]

If you get suicidal statements on the phone...recordings...does that count?

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

What would it be like if you took the kids with you when you "took a break" from being at home?

While that will go over like a lead balloon, the point is that you're currently the one always being separated from the kids.  It's got to be better than that.  Or at least try.  Your dilemma is that she sees you as the problem and so of course you're not good enough to take them.   Without a court order stating otherwise, parents have equal but undefined parenting rights.  That's a difficult place for you while facing someone who isn't reasonable or won't listen to reason.

You can always make it more appealing by saying you want to take the kids to the park, a restaurant or a movie they've been wanting to see.

[maxsterling]

What would it be like if you took the kids with you when you "took a break" from being at home?

Well, last night it was bed time, so I would not have taken them out anyway.  But if it wasn't bedtime and I suggested I take the kids to the park or out with me, I would likely be met with violent resistance.  One time she was ranting and acting violently, and I took the kids to the back room because they were crying and upset.  She followed, I closed the door and locked it (she was being very scary).  W started trying to kick in the door and screaming that I was not going to "take her kids away from her".  Eventually I let her back in the room after she agreed to calm down.  That may have been a 911 situation, but I had left my phone in the other room. 

[maxsterling]

If you get suicidal statements on the phone...recordings...does that count?

Best,

FF

Not sure.  I wonder what to do in that case.  I think I may call the suicide hotline and ask for advice here.  I also wonder if it would be appropriate to contact her T regarding the suicide talk.  I am assuming W brings that up in session, but then again I don't know because I thought that a T was required to take certain actions if certain criteria were met.     

[ForeverDad]

Whether the emergency responders would listen to a recording of suicidal ideations or threats, more likely than not, that probably would depend on the responders.  But at the least it would counter the person's emotionally compelling Denial that such suicidal talk ever happened.

There are many incidents recounted here where the person denied making suicidal comments and since it was "he said, she said" without independent proof either way then the responders walked away.

[maxsterling]

Whether the emergency responders would listen to a recording of suicidal ideations or threats, more likely than not, that probably would depend on the responders.  But at the least it would counter the person's emotionally compelling Denial that such suicidal talk ever happened.

There are many incidents recounted here where the person denied making suicidal comments and since it was "he said, she said" without independent proof either way then the responders walked away.

During previous incidents, it wasn't he said/she said.  She didn't deny saying it.  She denied that she was being serious, and the responders walked away.  One time she said she was going to leave the house and go someplace to kill herself.  She left the house, I called 911, they chased her car down with helicopter, she apparently gave a "my husband and I just got in a fight and I said some stuff" excuse, they let her go, and she was home within a half an hour.  One time she was actively raging, broken dishes on the floor, etc. when they came.  They basically told me to pack a bag, leave for the night, and more than likely she will just leave on her own.  Of course she didn't.

I know I am thinking like a rational adult here, and she is irrational, but I still don't understand how she cannot have at least a few minutes of clarity and understand that she has a serious rage problem that hurts others.

[ForeverDad]

I'm a little surprised that after the first few false alarms that they didn't begin billing her.  Or take her in for assessment anyway.  She's abusing the system.  By gifting her No Consequences, she has no reason to stop making suicide threats.  Most pwBPD do know $$$ even if they don't otherwise behave.

[worriedStepmom]

That may have been a 911 situation, but I had left my phone in the other room. 

We have a bluetooth handset system.  It has a base and 5 phones (that look like old cordless phones).  I linked my cellphone to it and put the individual bluetooth handsets in lots of rooms in the house.  That way I don't have to look for my phone when it rings or when I want to call someone.  It might be worth investing in a system like that for now so that you'll have access to a phone if you don't have your cell phone on you.  (It would work until she turned off the Bluetooth connection on your phone.)

[ForeverDad]

My parenting conflict ramped up in 2004 and 2005.  It got so bad that I bought a voice recorder.  Back then recording choices were limited.  During the divorce I added another two voice recorders.  The batteries were rechargeable and the units have limited digital storage.  I couldn't risk one or two of them depleted of charge or capacity.

Today's recorders have huge memories.  A few years ago I upgraded to Olympus WS-823 with 8 GB of storage and using 1-AAA cell.  I should have bought two, it records from FM too and now they're not available anymore.

Whatever it takes for you to have options when you're caught off guard.  Yes, our ex-spouses are experts at that.

[formflier]

OK...so you know what first responders will do with recordings of suicide talk. 

When you talk to a lawyer, find out what the courts will do.  You may be able to have her committed for a few days, based on the evidence you have.

They may be able to get her calmer, so the initial stages of separate, divorce go better.  Might give you some time to set up care for children without her raging.

Best,

FF

[Harri]

This thread reached the post limits and has been locked.  Feel free to start a new conversation. 

Thank you.