Part 2: How do I reach out my daughter when she will not allow us talk to her

[rolney]

This thread is a continuation of a previous thread. Part 1 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=336175.msg13049897#msg13049897

My daughter (now 34) was "normal" as a child. Not overly sensitive though much more of a risk taker than her brother who is 11 months older. We moved a lot between her being 3 and 10, moved countries, and moved to many towns in our new country.  When she was 10 I moved to a city so she and her brother would not have to go to boarding school as my husband had as a child and hated it. My husband began a "fly in fly out" work roster so by and large I had the children on my own for 2 weeks out of every three.
She changed when she was 13. She became overweight, dirty in her habits, very bad attitude and started lieing and being rude. Her behaviour was that of an atrocious teenager until she admitted to me when she was 15 she had been raped at 13. This was her trigger. From then til 22 she went on a trail of destruction, drug abuse, drug dealing, stealing from us, lieing, incredible rages. She had 11 car crashes, wrote off 3 cars and in one she broke her back and both of her legs. Her boyfriend was killed in a high speed car race. She developed bulimia and self harmed. She wrote several suicide notes though never attempted to take her life. On one occasion though she did load the car with the equipment needed to gas herself in the car. She drove 500 kms one night ringing us periodically and speaking in a foreign accent. She left home at 18 and one night her deceased boyfriends brother tried to hang himself...she drove into their driveway and he landed on the bonnet of her car having jumped from the first floor with a rope around his neck. Another night a man broke into her shared house and she woke to him trying to smother her with a pillow. She moved back home then. She began dating a career criminal who 6 months later went to jail for drug trafficking. She waited the 22 month sentence for him to come home and she promptly got pregnant with her first child. That was a turning point for her and her trail of destruction ended. She gave up drugs and all of the people in her life associated with them. She split with her childs father when the baby was 2.  
She excelled in her career in business management and became very financially successful, though she only lasts 18 mths to 2 years in any job (yet she is still head hunted because her level of brilliance in the job is astounding). She met the most gorgeous man when her child was 3 and they are now 8 years together, 5 years married. They have a 2.5 year old. Apart from one major episode of irrational rages and accusations when her first child was 18 months, she has not had a big flare up until this current one. They have been under a lot of regular stress for the past 18 months, buying a new home, work related stress and her anger management was suffering. Her husband told her he wasn't happy with her always seeming to be angry and BOOM...full blown BPD episode.
We are all in a tail spin from the destruction. She accused me of having an affair on her dad 20 years ago and actively sought out a collaborator to send "proof" to him while he was away at work. She has kept her girls away from us (though I minded her first child every week for 5 years and her second child every week for the past 2).. She will not respond to us and has cut off both of us and her brother though she INSISTS that I have cut her off and manipulated the other two intelligent grown men into cutting her off too. Her husband certainly is not allowed have any contact with us or he'd be on the "team" in her eyes. So while she has cut us all off and actively tried to break up my marriage, and should be working on  her own marriage she decided to have a tummy tuck (as you do). It's just beyond crazy. For us, it is devastating and at times beyond repairing. Truthfully, if she didn't have two beautiful girls I could quite easily walk away right now.

I will gladly hold my hand up to say there were days where I was less than a perfect person and may have been short tempered with my two children. However my son is a product of the same home and is a man I am proud to have reared. In the years in between my daughters major episodes she is also a very intelligent caring person. But she has BPD (high functioning) so when stress piles on she flips into the devil incarnate and woe betide those of us in the line of fire. Classically, nobody outside her family would see or believe this side of her. I did not cause her BPD. The current research shows a genetic predisposition and that, coupled with environment, can trigger BPD. She was raped at 13. That was her trigger...and the choices she made after that compounded the problem. I know she loathes herself and is so full of shame for what she has done to us in the past (and probably present) but her only way of managing that is to project it onto me and say I am her problem.

I really do hope that when your little children are teenagers and young adults and later middle aged people with their own children that your strategy for managing all of their different emotional responses has worked for your family. I would not wish this hell on anyone and it's wonderful that you are informed and active in your management of them when they are young and still in your control. The truth is though, I can't think of a thing I would  have done differently except maybe move to a deserted island with her til she was 21...then maybe life wouldn't have gotten in the way.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[FaithHopeLove]

Wow

Code:

Rolny

It sounds like you have been through quite a lot with your daughter and grandchildren. You are absolutely right that you did not cause her BPD. Thankfully there is still a lot you can do to improve the relationship by using the skills we learn here. How are your grands handling the separation?

[mggt]

I am so sorry for all the trauma you have been through with your d.  Stay strong  sending positives thoughts that you will see your gc soon. Sending hugs.

[Enabler]

Hey Rolney,

Wow, that's a serious string of bonkers  . Any one of those incidence would be serious to deal with for a parent trying to support their child let alone the child experiencing them. There's a spiral of chaos where seemingly one event slams into the next and becomes a causal factor in the next... raped... feel worthless... hook up with dubious boyfriend who's into risky activity (maybe because she feels aligned with his desire to live on the edge)... risky boyfriend gets killed because he's risky... etc etc etc etc until she reaches the wake-up wall.

Clearly the wake-up wall low or abrupt life event has changed the paradigm but ultimately it seems like it's just a shift... rather than hating herself and wanting to hurt herself, she wants to hate other external things... you... other people... authority... anyone who crosses her. Maybe this is what makes her such an effective employee. Maybe she's harnessed and focused that anger into something economically positive. BUT... the anger is still there and ever present. The trauma is still not dealt with. In the UK we have these TV series called SAS: Who dares wins. I watch this in a slightly different light now. There always seem to be these characters who are super super super fit but under stress break down pretty badly, they do a bit of poking around into their past and find out they had an abusive childhood. The ex SAS guys tackle this head on as a personal quality that needs harnessing... harnessing such that they can use the aggression to succeed BUT deal with it so that it doesn't destroy them... or put their fellow platoon members in danger when on a mission.

So, going back to my points earlier and your amazing story... and again, this is not about 'right', 'wrong', 'good', 'bad', this is about looking at things differently and saying "for some reason or other I (we, me and my husband) could have contributed to this in an unpredictable way."... Please read the first paragraph of your post again... dissect it piece by piece and think how the experience of your D was for her... truly deeply empathise with the minute experiences she may well have felt during this time. Focus on how this may have shaped her concept of people coming and going in her life, her attachment to friends, her experience of you, her experience of her father... remember, a child doesn't have 'knowledge and experience' to rationalise what is happening, things just happen. Again, your D's experience was little different to her brothers. My D8's experience has been little different to D10 but the outcome has been different with regards to their emotional 'robustness' and expression.

Remember, this is about understanding, not about blame, not about guilt.

I have a friend, I swear she suffers from BPD traits (listening to her husband). We were in the pub discussing her Dad's death, therapy, her relationship with her husband and a bunch of other things... She was freely talking about how her Dad suffered from M.E. and her relationship with him went from awesome at 11 to not speaking to him till she was 18 (turns out he was suicidal as well and had periods of severe depression)... almost in the same breath she says "the cause of my problems with my husband is because he didn't do XYZ 4 years ago". So you're telling me, a life long patern of dysfunctional behaviour started 4 years ago with a relatively minor marital error? Another friends sister blames a life long pattern of rage and abuse on a friend dying 8 years ago (mid 40's now). It so happened that her Dad was an abusive man who had multiple affairs and parents eventually got divorced after decades of this when she was 16.

It often goes deeper than the first trigger, the first trigger may just be the first obvious thing that can blame it on. The wound could be minute scratches from decades before.

Enabler

[Lollypop]

Hi Rolney

We are at a total loss as to what to do next. Can anyone advise how we should approach her to try and build a bridge so we can see our grandchildren?

Enabler is one wise cookie.

I focussed on my core relationship with my son28 as my number one priority. We loved each other but didn’t like one another very much. With a healthier relationship based on mutual respect and non-judgement, we connect on a deeper level.

He had such issues with our parenting but he forgives us for it. He sees that we are only human and imperfect, we are real and authentic. He accepts us for what we are. As we do him.

He’s made mistakes and so have we. There’s no blame any more.  Because we understand each other, take responsibility for our own behaviour and value our relationship.

This isn’t utopia. This is life with problems but we are happier.

Brene brown talks about vulnerability as being key to human connection. See her TED talk.

We are all interconnected. Is it possible to have a relationship with your grandkids without your daughter? I doubt it as it would be tricky, especially for the kids.

She’s had a tough time and it now seems her marriage is going through some difficulty. She’s decided her life is easier without you in it. I don’t want to be harsh, I’m just saying it as it is - and I totally understand the pain of no contact. It’s awful.

You can’t change your daughters behaviour. You can only change yours. A bridge can’t be built without compromise on both sides. Your daughter won’t be tempted to re-engage if she knows she’ll just get more of the same.

You may feel you’re at a loss but you’ve come to the right place. There’s no quick fixes and this is about getting back to basic communication skills, that is mostly listening and observing. My son could see the change in me and warmed up.

My son is hyper sensitive, it’s a gift actually. He senses judgement, he senses falsity, he sometimes senses things that aren’t there  - the words I use and my body language are very very important. He needs me to be calm and not react.

I am a kinder and more thoughtful person because of the skills I’ve learnt here. I took a leap of faith and changed my approach.

How’s your husband coping? I found my husband quite resistant to change but he eventually saw my new way was working.

Light as a fairy, gently forwards.

LP

[rolney]

Hi lypop

Interestingly my daughter has no complaints at all about our parenting. She has said in the early stages of this particular episode that we were good parents.  She says she knows we love her. She has said that how I am with her children "makes up for everything"...but can't explain what "everything" is. But when she flips she says she is sick of us bringing up her past  and that she knows she has made some very bad choices and done some terrible things to us. Here's the kicker though, and I can say this hand on heart...we have NEVER EVER brought up her past (because we know that is destructive to anyone). BUT, when she flips she relives her past in her head and is utterly ashamed...it would seem (and fit the BPD picture) that shame is too much to bear for her so she projects it onto me. She then removes herself from our life but insists that I have manipulated her dad and brother to cut her off.  So everything she thinks and does she projects onto me and "believes" I am doing it to her.  I am her target. She has also told me in the past I am her hero. So that Black and White thinking kicks in. I'm all good or all bad. However she is unable to find an instance where she can actually say I have been bad to her. Bear in mind, we had 9 years of normalcy between the last episode and this one. She does not cycle daily or weekly like many I have read about here. She has a very functional outwardly happy and successful life.

This episode started because her husband said he was unhappy and she perceived that as rejection. She instantly wanted to leave him and get divorced. It was so instant that I knew she was now flipping into a BPD episode...and I also knew that would mean I would become the target. If I am the target then she doesn't have to resent/reject him and can work on their relationship. I was SO cautious about everything I said and did, knowing what was coming. I was very benign in my responses (as we are taught at Family Connections). I used all the skills I have learned about DBT...BUT I made one mistake...She said had I any idea what it feels like for your husband to just tell you out of the blue that he is unhappy in the marriage. I empathised by saying "yes I do know what that feels like, your Dad has said that to me in the past" (exact words). That caused the explosion, as if she was needing something to grab onto...she said I made her pain about all me...and stormed off. It took 3 days to go from having a lovely cup of coffee with her and the kids to cut off. It's been 7 months now.

My husband is very supportive of me and furious with her. However he doesn't actively participate in learning and understanding her condition. I told him I can't do this one on my own anymore, he needs to learn and understand as much as me about the condition because we have to work as a team in trying to reach her and she is very destructive and intent on breaking up our marriage. Divide and conquer is her MO. So he has agreed to start reading for himself rather than just let me pass on what I have learned. He was unable to attend the Family Connections programme because he works away every second week and it's unfair to take a place from somebody who can attend each week. As I said, he's very supportive but he's at a total loss and gets quite depressed about it at times.

Tonight we discussed just turning up at her house next time he's home and saying "lets just stop this fighting"...hmmmmm...

[Hopeandjoy]

I can only imagine how frustrating this would be.
You said that she got evaluated at 17 and the professional said she showed traits of BPD/bipolar. there are many reasons that professional may have seen those things in her at that age, I would imagine her parents talked to them as well. Your voice matters, your perspective was focused on her behaviors, but what about the environment? You would have needed long term full family counseling to correctly assess your daughter.
You said that she improved after she left that abusive guy. Now I'm highly suspicious that guy had something to do with her "traits".
It's clear that she cares a lot about her children.
Tbh I don't think her possible BPD is the problem here.
In her mind she has probably learned that relationships tend to have conflict, and she has experienced herself getting blamed and labeled for it. It sounds like she feels threatened, does not trust herself to hold her own, so she's using whatever power she does have.

As frustrating as it is, I think its crucial you approach with the understanding that seeing your grandchildren is a privilege, not a right. Tbh I think she believes the family is toxic while you believe she's toxic. You have a right to feel upset, and she has a right to raise her children based on her own convictions. Your best approach is to let her explain why she won't contact you and don't JADE. From there you could ask for a solution that honors both sides.

[Hopeandjoy]

My husband is very supportive of me and furious with her. However he doesn't actively participate in learning and understanding her condition. I told him I can't do this one on my own anymore, he needs to learn and understand as much as me about the condition because we have to work as a team in trying to reach her and she is very destructive and intent on breaking up our marriage. Divide and conquer is her MO. So he has agreed to start reading for himself rather than just let me pass on what I have learned. He was unable to attend the Family Connections programme because he works away every second week and it's unfair to take a place from somebody who can attend each week. As I said, he's very supportive but he's at a total loss and gets quite depressed about it at times.

Tonight we discussed just turning up at her house next time he's home and saying "lets just stop this fighting"...hmmmmm...

Your husband is very supportive of you and furious with her. There's so much wrong with your daughter that your husband gets quite depressed about it at times. The two of you are united as a team. With strength in numbers you have discussed showing up at her house.
If she just didn't exist, what would your husband be depressed about. If your daughter hadn't turned out so crazy what would you two unite over?

[rolney]

Hi Hopeandjoy

I'm not sure what you mean by this?


If she just didn't exist, what would your husband be depressed about. If your daughter hadn't turned out so crazy what would you two unite over?

[Hopeandjoy]

Hello there! I'm curious. way back before your daughter started acting like she had BPD, what used to stress you guys out?

[rolney]

Hi there Hopeandjoy

Before she became a teenager I can honestly say nothing stressed us out. He got very down for a while when his father died, 20+ years ago. We have had regular ups and downs in our marriage but nothing that is memorable. we like the life we have created. We don't have a volatile household and rarely disagree on anything to be honest. My husband works away, flies in and out of our city to work for a week at a time and is home for a week. He's been doing this for 23 years. for the first 13 of those he was away for 2 weeks at a time and that meant I had to deal with most of the drama she created on my own. Occasionally I resented that he got to escape but I am not an unreasonable person and completely accepted that this was our choice, for him to work away and me to stay with the children. When he was home he was a completely devoted Dad and supportive husband. He phoned every day.  Looking back it would be true to say that the major stresses we have had involved her.

We met when I was 18 and married when I was almost 21. We have been married for 36 years. We both come from parents who are still married (my parents 58 years) and his are dead now but were married to the end. We come from a long line of very stable marriages and I guess that instilled in us that marriages requires respect, work and commitment. So if things are getting a little off kilter we are quite good at recognising and dealing with it. We rarely stress about work and if  one is having a hard time, the other is good at nurturing us through. We have not had financial concerns as we both work/worked in good jobs.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Lollypop]

Hi Rolney

My son had deep rooted shame about his past. Shame and low self worth were at his core. Things didn’t improve until we had a healthier relationship.

But when she flips she says she is sick of us bringing up her past  and that she knows she has made some very bad choices and done some terrible things to us.

What do you say to her when she says this?

I can see you’re validating her. I also use “me” in my validation as a way to convey empathy. It feels the simplest way doesn’t it. “You’re feeling horrible, I’d feel horrible too, then a truth statement”. Your daughter wants you to validate her and feel that you understand her problem - is there a way you can find to do this without referring to yourself?

If I get it wrong, I do what I call a re-do a day or two later.

“I’ve been reflecting on what we talked about the other day and, you know, I think I wasn’t expressing myself very well.” I’d repeat my version and re-validate in an improved way. It shows that I’m thoughtful, care about them and their problem.

If your daughters marriage is on the rocks she’s not going to be thinking straight. Every single day is a problem for her. All marriages go through rough patches but when you’re young and emotionally immature you overreact. Mine went on for 4 years! It’s tough and my parents stayed out of my problems. They listened but said nothing, no advice. My in-laws on the other had got too involved and eventually we moved far away to leave their interference.

Tonight we discussed just turning up at her house next time he's home and saying "lets just stop this fighting"...hmmmmm...

Did you go? How was it?

LP

[Only Human]

if  one is having a hard time, the other is good at nurturing us through.

This is just lovely, rolney   A strong marriage will get you through this trying time.

She has said that how I am with her children "makes up for everything"

She has also told me in the past I am her hero.

she is unable to find an instance where she can actually say I have been bad to her.

All this is a great foundation to rebuild a relationship upon, rolney. Take it easy, baby steps - there are many days between now and forever.

today I took the advice here and emailed her telling her I am so sorry for not understanding how she felt ( I did a lot of validating feelings as we are taught in Family Connections)
[...]it's a good sign that she hasn't replied yet. If she is angry at what she has read she will respond within the hour.

No news is good news, right? I'm willing to bet you've made some ground here, shown her you're looking at things from her perspective. It can take some time for our loved ones to let their guard down, to trust that they will not get "more of the same" from us; whatever "more of the same" is in your relationship, it's different for all of us. For my relationship with my daughter, it was my inability to meet her where she was. My hopes, dreams, and expectations for her future were written all over my face. She's ill, I'm working hard to accept that.

~ OH

[Hopeandjoy]

Before she became a teenager

he was away for 2 weeks at a time and that meant I had to deal with most of the drama she created on my own. Occasionally I resented that he got to escape but I am not an unreasonable person and completely accepted that this was our choice, for him to work away and me to stay with the children.

Before you married, him working away, is that really what you had envisioned for raising a family?

[rolney]

Hi Hopeandjoy

Before I married him I knew nothing about what the world would present to us. We lived in a small country, now we live in a huge one. He has a particular set of skills that means his work takes him into very remote areas. We lived out there with him until the children needed to go to high school and then I moved back to a city so they did not have to be boarded away from us. We are very fortunate to be on the same page and flexible with what life presented. We both have always agreed to major life decisions. I'm not sure where your line of questioning is going? It doesn't seem to be answering my question about how we might reach out to our daughter who will not see us.

[rolney]

Hi Lollypop

No we didn't do it and we probably wont at this stage. I have been doing a lot of work with the Family connections programme and realised I play the rescuer a lot...that's over . Her marriage is not my responsibility. She hasn't responded to my emails or my husbands messages...that's her choice. We will stop now and leave the ball in her court.

[rolney]

Thanks Only Human

I'm working on radical acceptance, benign interpretation, JADE and FOG . Time cures everything

[Hopeandjoy]

I'm not sure where your line of questioning is going? It doesn't seem to be answering my question about how we might reach out to our daughter who will not see us.

It sounds like the family dynamic has worked well for you, but your daughter has a different perspective. You have every right to feel hurt by this and wanting to see your daughter is perfectly reasonable. At the same time your daughter has the right to form her own opinions of the family and make decisions based on her convictions. There are some things you can do to reach her, but if you're the only side that wants reconciliation it would be a tough course.

[Only Human]

I'm working on radical acceptance, benign interpretation, JADE and FOG . Time cures everything

Love it, yes. 

I have been doing a lot of work with the Family connections programme and realised I play the rescuer a lot

I really hope I get to attend a FC session soon, I've been on the wait list since October 2018! I'm a rescuer in recovery, . It's not easy to stand back while our loved ones struggle. Even more difficult when GC are involved. I am not fond of the word "game" in this statement, but it's true - we are all playing the long game. Slow and steady, you're actively seeking information and guidance as you weather this most recent storm. Keep it up

I don't know about where you are, but the weather here is perfect. Mid-70's, nice little breeze that is playing my windchimes. I've spent the last hour on my back patio swing, drinking coffee and listening to the sounds. As Lollypop said in response to another member:

Life is tough, we have to find beauty in it. We have to make that beauty essential.

~ OH

[Hopeandjoy]

I think there's quite a bit to do before this turns around completely, but here's the most important elements:

The first step would be to assess what you want and how you feel about the separation. The next step is to figure out what she wants and how she feels, even though it seems unreasonable.

Then you can approach your daughter with a solution that honors the needs and feelings of both people. When she sees that you're considerate of her at the same time as clear of what you want, she will understand exactly what you're asking for and realize that she can be considerate of you without giving up whatever's important to her.

The point of considering someone has BPD is so you can look at related material and talk to people who are dealing with similar behaviors. You can learn how to respond to her by learning about BPD. When you know how to "manage" her, you can enjoy your life despite her behavior. It's vital to separate the person from the diagnosis. Your daughter most likely has considered you might have a PD as well. A diagnosis is just a manmade point of reference for a behavior set, we only have authority to define ourselves. You are both struggling to make sense of this conflict. If she has a therapist she will be talking to them about you, from her perspective. When you took your teenager in for an evaluation, the therapist was working for you, not her.

When your child has BPD its important to remember you are not responsible for their feelings, and you did your best. A pwBPD is a person who has been chronically invalidated. The behaviors are defensive and reactionary so they respond well to assertive communication. On the flipside they strongly react to aggressive communication and power imbalances.

I think everyone can relate to wanting to see your daughter and grandkids. It's also important to remember that she has rightful authority over her children's relationship with you so the things you're asking for from her are a privilege and it is her decision to make. When you're used to being in authority over your growing children, it is easy to get confused on how to handle situations where your adult children have the authority instead.

I'm glad your husband is supporting you through this. Your team efforts at convincing her and enforcing change are polarizing the situation. It is dangerous for a person to be overpowered and your daughter becoming defensive is a healthy reaction. If she has talked to any therapists or police about this, they have most likely recommended she block you. I can guarantee your daughter feels a lot of grief and pain and she needs you both.

I believe it's highly likely you will reconcile but may take longer than you'd like. I think you may need to grieve some things you feel you're missing during this chapter in your daughter and grandkids life. I believe that things will get better if you apply yourself in the right areas, and hope you find some peace as you wait for things to improve.