has anyone been blindsided by something in court, or a ruling?

[momtara]

I'm facing going to court on Monday over some minor thing, and at this point I'm not sure it's worth it.  I'm scared that a judge can turn it all around.  I have most of the custody of my kids.  Others have read my story - a parent coordinator said my exH should get supervised visitation until he gets back on his meds.  But his therapists both wrote letters saying he's compliant and fine.  The only thing to fight for, really, is whether I can force him to keep seeing his doctors, and for his doctors to make reports to the court about him being compliant.  I'm not sure we'll win that.  

He can also go into court and say any foolish thing.  Also, just for our lawyers to travel there will cost us money.

Part of me feels like I have to try, otherwise I may always feel like I didn't do enough.  The other part of me says - at this point, I don't think my exH would harm my kids; he's more relaly really annoying and hard to coparent with.  Maybe I should stay out of court and use the money for the kids and be glad things aren't worse.

So I guess I am wondering the risks of going to court and if a judge could do something surprising like saying, "exH should get more time. how can he only have the kids every 2 weeks? this is ridiculous!"

[ForeverDad]

Alternate weekends and an evening or overnight in between is considered standard for a non-primary parent.  For someone with issues not to have that evening/overnight in between is not ridiculous.

Yes, there are no guarantees, but be careful of second guessing yourself.

It's possible he will fold rather than expose his issues more in court.  Or it may come down to his word against yours and you may have to use an ace up your sleeve to document whose claims are correct.

[momtara]

Good points.  Thank you.  Good to know a judge may not do that.  I read so many stories on here that are nerve-wracking.

So it's really just whether we want notifications of him staying in medical treatment. And possibly someone between us to monitor it. Someone suggested to me today that I ask the court to get monthly updates from his doctors.  Going back and forth constantly over whether to drop it all, or not.  

Court just scares me in general - a judge deciding in a few minutes what you've been working all your life for.

[Matt]

Court always has risks.

Do you really need more than one lawyer present for something like this?  I would probably talk with them now, and say, "I can't afford for both of you to come to the hearing Monday.  Which would be more appropriate?"  Be prepared for some push-back - if they both come they can bill you for twice as much - but you're the boss and you are not obligated to pay them both to come for a fairly short and simple hearing.  I would not back down on that - you'll save maybe half the cost.

As for how court will go, your attorney should be able to explain the process to you - who will speak first, etc. - so you'll at least know that.  You and your lawyer should have your main points down pat so you know that the judge will hear the basic information and argument you believe is right.

If the other side makes any false statement - make sure you have a notebook with you - write down exactly what was said - word-for-word if you can - and pass your lawyer a note - "I need to speak because Ex's L just made a false statement."  Work it out with your lawyer beforehand so he knows that if any false statement is made (that is important enough to bother with) you want to address it:

"Your Honor, a few minutes ago Mr. Ex'sL state that blah blah blah.  This is not true - I have never done blah blah blah - and Mr. Ex'sL has not put forward any evidence to support this accusation.  I would ask the court to stop Mr. Ex'sL from making any more false accusations."

The judge probably won't do anything - she'll have no way to know who is telling the truth about every matter - but you will put her on notice that she can't take the other side's statements at face value.  If you have to do that 20 times, so be it - the judge will see what is happening.  (Just don't nit-pick some small issue that doesn't matter.)

[momtara]

No, I only have one lawyer, and he has one.  But we're both broke, so I don't want him to waste money that could go to the kids, either.

Yeah, the risks of court worry me.  Hard to know if what I read on the internet is representative or an aberration.

[Matt]

Yeah, the risks of court worry me.  Hard to know if what I read on the internet is representative or an aberration.

Some of both.

I've seen courts do things that were blatantly wrong - so wrong that I know for sure everybody in the courtroom knew that what the judge was doing was wrong but there was nothing that could be done about it.

I've also seen courts - like in my divorce - follow the proper process and let the parties make their cases the best we could.  My case didn't go to trial, but there were hearings along the way, and the judge was practical and helpful - no bias that I could see.

Your lawyer should know something about this particular judge and how she usually rules.  That should put you at ease somewhat (or not).

[momtara]

I've heard he's good.  But I know someone with an ex with NPD and she said the judge didn't care that her ex was abusive.  Hard to know.

So I have in there that he has to stay in therapy 3x a month, and he's accepting of that, but wants the line removed that if he fails to follow the directive, his doctors have to notify my lawyer.  I've seen that issue on here before - that we can demand they get counseling, but there's no way to prove it or not.  At this point, I may be ok letting that part about them notifying us go because they probably won't tell anyway, but do you think I should stick to my guns?  I feel like he'll stick to the court order or at least try, actually.

[Matt]

I doubt that any doctors will comply with that.  They usually won't tell anything about a patient, and the court probably won't enforce an order like that.

[momtara]

My lawyer wants us to have in a thing saying his doctors have to notify the court monthly... .I've backed off that, though. 

[ForeverDad]

I doubt that any doctors will comply with that.  They usually won't tell anything about a patient, and the court probably won't enforce an order like that.

My lawyer wants us to have in a thing saying his doctors have to notify the court monthly... .I've backed off that, though.

If the court sees a need to protect the welfare of children, it will make an order.  Likely not a report to the court, courts don't want to be the monitors, but possibly something of this sort? ... ."If Father does not ____ then Mother may suspend unsupervised visitation and allow only supervised visitation until Father is in compliance.  Father may file a motion with the court if the matter remains disputed."

While a person does have a right to privacy regarding medical information (HIPAA) the court can make the level of visitation conditional upon release of medication compliance, IF it chooses to do so.

[Matt]

I doubt that any doctors will comply with that.  They usually won't tell anything about a patient, and the court probably won't enforce an order like that.

My lawyer wants us to have in a thing saying his doctors have to notify the court monthly... .I've backed off that, though.

If the court sees a need to protect the welfare of children, it will make an order.  Likely not a report to the court, courts don't want to be the monitors, but possibly something of this sort? ... ."If Father does not ____ then Mother may suspend unsupervised visitation and allow only supervised visitation until Father is in compliance.  Father may file a motion with the court if the matter remains disputed."

While a person does have a right to privacy regarding medical information (HIPAA) the court can make the level of visitation conditional upon release of medication compliance, IF it chooses to do so.

Yes - depends how the order is done.  What I found in my case - and this is how other members have described it - is that when a court order says ":)isordered parent must do X", and when the disordered parent doesn't do X, there just isn't any mechanism for the court to follow up and enforce the order, unless the other parent files a motion of some sort so they are back in front of the court, and then you can say, "The court ordered him to do X but he didn't do it".  (And then you may have to prove he didn't do it, or there might be another hearing scheduled for that issue... .)

My wife was ordered, in very clear language, to get therapy.  She didn't do it.  No consequences.

And I don't know if the judge is likely to place an obligation on someone who isn't a party to the dispute, like a doctor;  and if he did, I'm not sure the doctor would be obligated to obey it, since it would be violating the law.  Usually court orders only require the parties to do something (or not do something).

So... .trying to get the court to "force" the other party to take care of himself, in my view, isn't likely to work.

[momtara]

That sounds good.  My new fear is that if someone is triggered by abandonment, those sorts of penalties may make things worse, and not really work anyway.  Since my husband hasn't *technically* done anything, I'm just always going to have to watch a little bit.  We put together an agreement today, just have to sign it.  It has very little in it.  It acknowledges the level of therapy he's in.  It doesn't say he has to stay in it.  However, it at least establishes a status quo.  That's about the best I can do for now.

[momtara]

Geez, I am still facing this issue and having second thoughts about letting that go.  Will my second thoughts NEVER end?  All I do is worry, it seems.  But I am coparenting with a mentally ill person.

[Matt]

Geez, I am still facing this issue and having second thoughts about letting that go.  Will my second thoughts NEVER end?  All I do is worry, it seems.  But I am coparenting with a mentally ill person.

I think being closely involved with someone whose thinking is twisted tends to mess us all up to some degree.

We doubt ourselves and second-guess ourselves, because we know that no matter what we do, it probably won't work - the other party probably won't like it and will complain and blame us.  And if you're around somebody who is negative all the time it's hard to feel good about yourself and the universe.

The only solution I know of is to get distance from the person that makes you have all these doubts.  If you can arrange it so you're just not around him and don't even know what he thinks, then it will get easier.

The legal stuff is always tough because we're not experienced - it's the first time down this past (for most of us).  Best if your attorney gives you confidence that what you are doing is right, but if your attorney doesn't have good experience with people like this he might not be able to give you that confidence.  So sometimes you just have to do what you think is right, and accept that it might not work out perfectly... .

[momtara]

My atty is great in court, not so good at giving me direction or what to do about my exH.  Thanks for the kind words, and you are pretty much right - when I try to stay involved with him and his thoughts is when I second guess everything and let boundaries drop.  Then I worry even more about the kids because maybe I said or did something to set him off.  I feel healthier when I talk to him less.  But I also feel happy when he is happy and not triggered, too.

Now that this court thing is almost done with, I am going to be better about setting boundaries, I hope.  But with him off his medication (supposedly), he may not respond well, either.  He still wants to get back together with me, and that's scary because I have to keep saying it's inappropriate to discuss it.