The Good Days are the Worst

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

One week ago I had felt that I was approaching a final determination to begin divorce proceedings.  I had arrived at a point at which I felt that although I didn't have the "smoking gun" or absolute clear reason to do it, it was just time to stop being undecided, and tally up my life's good and bad - and start living my life in a new direction. 

Then the weekend came by, and I had a fine few days with my wife.  Fine meaning asymptomatic for BPD traits. It seemed like life was livable - even married.  I knew it wasn't romantic or emotionally fulfilling, but, for everyday living and sustaining our roles as parents, we could survive together.  I also have gotten to the point that I accept my role in the past turmoil.  I've gotten a handle on my mindset and behavior, and that has helped a lot.

That got me thinking that good days like those might be doing more damage than the days of silent anger, passive aggression, helplessness, rages, blame, projection, and manipulation.   

Right now a string of bad days would convince me to leave.  But, throw in a good day, and I catch my breath and hang on again.

Just thinking out loud right now.  Has anyone else gone through this?
How did you see it through to deciding to stay or go?

[SamwizeGamgee]

One week ago I had felt that I was approaching a final determination to begin divorce proceedings.  I had arrived at a point at which I felt that although I didn't have the "smoking gun" or absolute clear reason to do it, it was just time to stop being undecided, and tally up my life's good and bad - and start living my life in a new direction. 

Then the weekend came by, and I had a fine few days with my wife.  Fine meaning asymptomatic for BPD traits. It seemed like life was livable - even married.  I knew it wasn't romantic or emotionally fulfilling, but, for everyday living and sustaining our roles as parents, we could survive together.  I also have gotten to the point that I accept my role in the past turmoil.  I've gotten a handle on my mindset and behavior, and that has helped a lot.

That got me thinking that good days like those might be doing more damage than the days of silent anger, passive aggression, helplessness, rages, blame, projection, and manipulation.   

Right now a string of bad days would convince me to leave.  But, throw in a good day, and I catch my breath and hang on again.

Just thinking out loud right now.  Has anyone else gone through this?
How did you see it through to deciding to stay or go?

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Sam, It's stressful because you're walking through a mine field.  Even on a good day, you know the mines are still there.  When things were calm, I would get hopeful, yet those hopes proved illusory when the explosions started going off again.  It's an insidious cycle, my friend.  In Psych 101, we learned that intermittent reinforcement is the strongest conditioning, per BF Skinner.  Same could be said for a BPD r/s.  Suggest you take a bird's eye view of your situation, where you are above and looking down at the landscape of your r/s.  Maybe that will help you to find your path through the BPD woods?  LJ

[Verbena]

Yes, I have. There was a lull last spring after I asked my ex several times to go to counseling. He flat refused not only counseling but to have any kind of meaningful discussion with me either. He either didn't know what I was talking about, denied everything, or just gave me the silent treatment.

So for awhile, he seemed more tolerable and I wasn't sure I would really be going down the oath of divorce. Or maybe I just hadn't accepted the inevitable yet.

My divorce was final last Seitember 2--Thirty-foot years, one week, and five days later. I still can't believe I held out that long.

[formflier]

I'm attempting to organize my life independently of my wife.  Basically strong boundaries to protect from the BPDish stuff, but with flexibility for when there are good days... I can enjoy those if it want to.

Part of my radical acceptance is a realization that my wife is not wired for a consistent close intimate relationship.  When I look over history, when there were periods of many months where generally things were going well, that is a precursor to some big "sabotage".

While I'm not responsible for my wife, I am responsible for my part in the relationship and when my wife is "pulling" me closer I can make a decision to stay somewhat aloof. 

Relatively speaking, this has stabilized things... .somewhat.  Perhaps it just lengthens the cycle before she needs to "blow out" the built up emotional pressure.

Not sure if any of this can be applied to your r/s and your experience... .but I hope so.  Realize the good days are good... and the bad are bad.  Feel them both.

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

It's clear from your responses that you all get it.  Thanks.
I know it's a cycle, all too well now.  The trouble is, I'm waiting for some next major blow up to justify divorce.  But, I'm good at avoiding / preventing them.  I also appreciate the good days, since I remember the bad days.  I used to get over the bad days and too easily forgive and forget - or more likely, take all the blame.  My awareness is better.

I don't ever feel deluded that she'll recover, or we'll have a marriage like the one I want.  I got down to radical acceptance.  I'm just tired of radically accepting things always. 

[teapay]

Yes, I have those feeling at times too. 

I have also organized a lot of my life to be independent from my W.  This is good for both of us. I spend my time enjoying my life, taking care of my family and keeping busy and active like anyone else.   I have set up boundaries to protect both myself and the family from BPD behaviors, work to steer the family in the right direction of more normalcy, encourage my W whenever she is heading in the right direction and for now ignore the rest if it doesn't really impact anything even if I might not like it.  I don’t have a high requirement for emotional intimacy and I am pretty secure in myself.  I don't pine too much after green grass somewhere else.  I make no commitments to staying.  If we are not heading in a better direction or headed for a fall, I’ll probably move to dissolve the marriage, which only gets easier as my kids get older and need for child care gets less.  But even if we do split and dissolve the current status of family, if possible, it is still in everyone in the family's interest to get my W in a better spot, more independent and better able to take care of herself and less of a drag on everyone else.

[flourdust]

I reached the point where I was no longer able to pretend things were OK on the good days.

Part of what keeps us in these BPD relationships is denial -- when bad things aren't happening, we are able to bury the negative feelings and memories. I lived in that mode for a long time. During good stretches (months ... .then weeks ... .then days ... .then, finally, hours or minutes), I would tell myself that the bad stuff was over, and if I just was extra careful, I could prevent it from happening again.

At the end, though, I wasn't able to believe that lie, and so my anxiety during the good days did not abate. I could not pretend that things were OK.

[CrossroadsGuyMn]

Samwise,

I'm right there with you pal.

When things are good, it just feels like I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.  The longer the 'good' phase lasts, the worse I feel.

Which has put me where it sounds like Flourdust is.

The difference for me this time, is that I'm finally DOING something about it all.  Participating on here, seeing a therapist, writing a journal, and reading about the disorder. 

Its been stated before, but by doing these things it helps me maintain perspective of the overall landscape, rather than just a few blades of grass so to speak.

Also, reading about what others are going through, and how similar all of our situations are helps me to realize how pervasive and predictable this disorder is.

I'm not all better, and I have still not made a decision on whether I should stay or go... .but... .I'm working on it.  And working on it has helped me feel like I am progressing towards getting out of the mud, rather than 'wallowing' in the mire.

[empath]

Honestly, I'm tired, too. Tired of being the stability; tired of being detached emotionally; tired of the drama and chaos (whoops, I forgot a payment that I scheduled and now we have overdrafts... .); tired of having to stay 5 steps ahead of the conversation; tired of having to be the supervisory parent. I realized a few years ago that the thing that is 'stable' is the instability - I can trust that things will change.

When there are good days, I remind myself that it won't stick around. We can't go back to the way things were and I was ignoring the damage that was being done. I can't fix it or make it better. I like my life a lot better when he isn't hovering around and thinking we are 'reconciling' because other people are pressuring him to reconcile (to him it means I'm doing stuff with him).

[SamwizeGamgee]

Tired is a fitting word right now for me.  I figured out BPD.  I cracked the code, but deciphered the message that says I can pick from chaos or quiet despiration.

[formflier]

Can you explain quiet desperation more?

FF

[michel71]

Right now a string of bad days would convince me to leave.  But, throw in a good day, and I catch my breath and hang on again.

My friend... .I lived this way for 2 1/2 years. I can so relate to your post. The cognitive dissonance was horrible. I am at the point where I am trying to understand how/why I hung in so long allowing myself to suffer in so much pain. I actually remember feeling guilty when the good days would come thinking that I was over-reacting to the bad days and they were not all 'THAT BAD' until of course they were again. That is why this is crazy making. Like i said though, I was a party to this. I allowed it.

[teapay]

My W behaviors helped me make decisions on where my boundaries would be and that a leaving boundary would be okay, even with 5 minor kids in tow.  Some of her behaviors were getting extreme and she was talking about leaving herself, so I kind of decided splitting would be fine and started doing what I needed to make that possible and protect myself and kids.  But since I was heading down that road anyway, I also decided to confront the BPD and the behaviors more directly and try to move myself and family in a direction that was healthier and more to my liking.  I figured if it didn’t work and the whole thing blow up and dissolve, I would still be able to move myself and family in a direction that was healthier and more to my liking anyway.  So hitting that leaving okay point was kind of empowering.  The pressure of confrontation, both from me initially, and then from others, and the potential dissolution of the family, has influenced my W to make some progress addressing some of her own issues and many issues contentious in the marriage.  This is good for her and benefits us all.  There no guarantee of progress in spouse, though, by this approach.  It could just as easily unravel depending on the players.  The guarantee, however, is that either way I would have more control of my life and would be able to move myself and family in a direction that was healthier and more to my liking.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Teapay - I reached a state of powerfulness (I guess empowerment is the word) when I got to the point that to me, everything is on the table.  When I had studied it out long enough to say that divorce is an option that I can do, and survive, my state of mind changed.  Changing the state of mind changes the state of being I think.  I have not said the word divorce to my wife, so it's not that we've talked about it, but, it holds no fear for me now.  Hassles and hurdles, yes, but no fear and blind avoidance.  I think that's what you are talking about about a leaving boundary. 

I realized this applied for all the many ways I was open to emotional blackmail by her.  I got over what I needed to, and let go.  I pictured it as holding a rope.  If she pulls where I don't want to go, then I let go of my end.  I disregard her attempts at guilt, shame, fear, arguments, and other threats.  This path means a lot of disconnection, but, it happens to fit my philosophy which is heavily becoming Buddhist-influenced.  I am more aware, accepting, and releasing.  Which goes to @Michel71 - I stopped the pain I was in mostly by this process of letting go.  I learned that anger is a secondary emotion.  I had to feel something first that then "made" me mad.  I changed how I choose this - and live more mindfully now and choose my battles, so to speak. 

However, I am not a superhuman monk, yet, nor reached full enlightenment, yet.  I am an otherwise reasonable guy trapped in an unsustainable relationship, only my half of which I can control. @FF - Which is why I respond also the description of living a life of quiet desperation (which I first recall hearing from a Pink Floyd song, but I have to credit Thoreau with the apt definition). "“The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. What is called resignation is confirmed desperation. From the desperate city you go into the desperate country, and have to console yourself with the bravery of minks and muskrats. A stereotyped but unconscious despair is concealed even under what are called the games and amusements of mankind... ." - H.D.T. Civil Disobedience

[Lucky Jim]

I figured out BPD.  I cracked the code, but deciphered the message that says I can pick from chaos or quiet despiration.

Hey Sam, Suggest you entertain the possibility of other choices that might lead to different outcomes, such as greater happiness.  Who says you have to suffer and be miserable?  That's no way to live, my friend.  I should know, because I was once in your shoes.  What would greater happiness look like to you?  How might that feel?  What are some other choices that you have?  It's a long game and there's still time to make changes.

LuckyJim

[SamwizeGamgee]

LJ - I'm doing okay on my personal happiness. I've filled my life with other things, and also enjoy distance running which burns a lot of stress and is good therapy, and activity.  The real elephant in the room that you may be referring to, is to get a divorce.  I am ready to entertain that, but with the kids involved I'll have to be vary careful balancing what greater happiness means.
I do not want to look at life 20 years from now and tell myself, "well, shucks, I guess not everyone gets to have a good life after all."  Which is more of the sense of quiet desperation.

[Lucky Jim]

Samwize, OK, good, hang in there.  Everyone has to find his/her own path through the BPD Forest.  Trouble is, I lost my way for a while there, as I think I've related.  Whether divorce is the right move for you is something only you can answer.  What I am suggesting is that greater happiness is a factor to be weighed along with everything else.  Many here on the Conflicted Board fear the unknown, with reason, yet that's also where the magic happens (as they say).  I don't know what changes would make your life better, but I do know that change is possible.

LJ 

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thanks. I know lots of people stick with it through a lot worse.  But, I'm really doubting I can make it.  In the grand scheme of things, I know I've got it good overall.  But, I want out of the forest of BPD.

[Grey Kitty]

I know lots of people stick with it through a lot worse.  But, I'm really doubting I can make it.  In the grand scheme of things, I know I've got it good overall.  But, I want out of the forest of BPD.

Staying because "others have it worse" is a really messed up idea. And your description of "good times" being not particularly pleasant, just that the abuse isn't happening doesn't recommend it.

That said, I'm trying to remember--are you raising children with your wife? If so, then the question of what is best for your children is a very valid one... .and that can cut either way toward staying or leaving, depending on circumstances.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Raising five kids, youngest 6, oldest almost 18, and at college.  That's pretty much what keeps me stuck - not wanting to ignite harmful chaos of divorce and damage the kids.

Part of the madness is that to the outside my wife looks like a great mom.  She will likely have a strong bid for primary custody and stick me with the bills. I don't think divorce courts listen to husband's concerns about invalidation, enmeshment, parentification, cyclic nature of abuse, BPD behaviors. 

However, I'm in the middle of reading "Understanding the Borderline Mother" which is augmenting my concerns for the kids' welfare and makes me want to split.

[Grey Kitty]

So to put a harsh light on it... .

Your wife's behavior toward you ranges from bad (aka abusive) to not so bad / neutral. With very little "good" to make up for it. Why you are still in that marriage would be a really tough question about that.

However, if it is tolerable, you probably want to evaluate your marriage in terms of whether it is better for your kids or not. That's a lot more complicated.

I'm assuming that your wife doesn't treat your children as badly as she treats you.

That kind of evaluation should be based on how your wife is as a mom from the inside view... .not from the outside. And try to compare that to what things would be like with split custody. Or if your wife got majority custody. And talk to a good lawyer or three to figure out what the possible and likely outcomes are.

Your children are also learning what a "normal" romantic relationship (i.e. you and their mom) looks like. I'm guessing it isn't anything you want your children to be a part of!

That's pretty much what keeps me stuck - not wanting to ignite harmful chaos of divorce and damage the kids.

If you were talking about your marriage sans kids, I would use the word stuck. Given that you have your kids welfare to consider, rather than saying you are stuck, say that you are choosing to maintain a difficult marriage for their benefit.

Realizing that you ARE making a choice feels a lot better than being stuck. And when you think of it that way, you may realize what limits you have that would make you choose otherwise.

[formflier]

However, I'm in the middle of reading "Understanding the Borderline Mother" which is augmenting my concerns for the kids' welfare and makes me want to split.

So... .can you expand on this and your reasoning.  How does reading that book make you want to split?  How does it help the kids?

This is certainly something I evaluate from time to time. 

Do you have anyone close to you that has divorced from a Borderline and "seen how that goes"? 

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

Tough questions my friends!
GreyKitty - word choice on my part, but stuck is not the right one.  I do agree with what you are saying.  I make a rational decision to stay on account of the kids. I'm okay with that choice for the time being.  Nevertheless, it feels like Stuck since I'm not going anywhere forward.

My wife treats me very neutrally most of the time.  I accept that, since I have become much more distant through boundaries, it's too be expected probably.  At times, I do see that she does not act well with the kids either.  Sometimes it's bad, and sometimes, it just more neutral.  I do know that she undermines their individuality to a large degree.  In addition to many other subtle behaviors and words.  I think my response is a good balance / safe haven for the kids.  I'll usually go forward with what I do as a parent in spite of what she does - I think that gives the kids a more normal experience.  Ironically =, I sense that she mimics me, or takes my lead in things I do and the calls I make in parenting.  That can be good for the kids.  If she reflects things I do, and it works for the kids, that should be good. 

All this adds up to saying that I should stay and be present and calm to temper the mom.  However, I am just getting worn down.  I can't last forever.  You bring up a good point as to question what I am doing as a role model as a "romantic" relationship.  I had to quote"" that word, since I laugh sarcastically inside thinking about my marriage being called a romantic relationship.  Good luck if the kids model this as their relationship.  Actions speak louder than words, since they all seem to avoid any dating or pairing off.  They've learned how to be automatons.

@FF - I'd have to pick apart the book to give you a full answer.  The book really has helped me see things from the child's point of view (and the mom's).  It describes the important developmental achievements that happen while bonding with mom - and not bonding with mom, or when that bond is betrayed.  It just scares me to think about the damage done / being done / around the corner.  Fear and sadness for the kids.  All covered by their good behavior, and mom's excellent act.  It makes me feel like I'm leaving my kids on a sinking ship, or a poison filled atmosphere.  And, maybe I'm being too sensitive.   

You ask if I know someone divorced from a borderline, and that made me chuckle too.  For any man who knows the word borderline will happily use the word to described the woman he divorced - almost a punchline now.  Most people dont' know about the emotional and verbal aspects of abuse, nor Borderline as a condition.  I don't know of someone close to me who divorced a (actual) borderline.  I glean what wisdom I can from this and similar group forums.

Thank you all for the chance to talk and listen.  I always think about these comments for a long time.

[formflier]

  It makes me feel like I'm leaving my kids on a sinking ship, or a poison filled atmosphere.  

My thoughts exactly... .

Which is where I found it hard to understand how learning this would lead you to want to split... .unless of course... .you believed you could get full custody.

It comes down to the basic question of (assuming half time), will the kids be better off to spend half time in a healthy environment with no bad influence and half time immersed in poison... .or do you try to be around some to "blunt" the poison as it is being applied.

For instance:  If I'm around, I can... and have... .stopped my wife from "instructing" the kids in various hate filled things, usually with a kernel of religious truth somewhere in there.

I haven't changed my wife's view at all... .and I'm ok with that.

The key is that it stopped coming out of my wife's mouth and into my kids ears, followed by several days of teaching that "balanced" the poison.

For me:  I've had a front row seat to the destruction of my nieces and nephews at the hands of my sister in law ... with my wife's FOO helping out.  Granted, the divorced father of my nieces and nephews is a bit of a passivist... .and hasn't legally fought back like I thought he should.

Anyway... .it's a tough call for us all. 

FF

[teapay]

How do your kids feel about your W and how do they view her behaviors and her treatment of them and you?  Good, bad, indifferent?

Similarly, how do your kids feel about you and how do they view your behaviors and her treatment of them and her?  Good, bad, indifferent?

Do you kids tend to mimic your behavior or your W?

Would you expect any of these to change if you obtained 50/50 custody?

[Lucky Jim]

All this adds up to saying that I should stay and be present and calm to temper the mom.  However, I am just getting worn down.  I can't last forever.

Hey Sam, I can relate.  I justified staying for the benefit of my kids because I believed that they (the kids) deserved a stable parent in their lives to offset the turbulent emotions of their mother, my BPDxW.  I thought (and still think) that they deserved my best efforts.  So, like you, I persevered.

One day my T asked me whether I thought that I had tried everything to save my marriage?  I said, Yes.  She replied, I think so, too.  It was highly unusual for her to share a personal opinion, so it got my attention.   

It's true: a BPD r/s can be exhausting and I agree that you can't last forever in those conditions.  I found out the hard way.  So be careful, my friend.  Suggest you listen to your gut feelings.

LuckyJim

[empath]

It makes me feel like I'm leaving my kids on a sinking ship, or a poison filled atmosphere. 

I know. It's one thing to do what's right for me, but when we have kids in the mix, things get more complicated. I know that I can't leave without the kids -- or without our youngest (our only minor right now). My plans now always have her best interest at heart - I've had to do some very uncomfortable things because of that. My realization is that as long as the courts are not involved, I have a lot of freedom in how I handle the situation. I've also asked questions of a lawyer about it, just in case I need that.

[formflier]

 

I totally get the feeling of being worn down.

I'm still not used to be "selfish", but I ... ."more often than not"... .put myself first and take walks, go to the gym, do something special for myself.  My goal is to "be at my best" when my kids are around and to have time when they are not around to think deeply about priorities and next steps.

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

Everyone's comments are appreciated.  It still gives me more to think about.  I think we can all share in the double edged sword that staying or leaving in order to protect the kids.  I still have to dig deeper into thinking about it.  But, I think what I sense is that mom's personality, and whatever damage that causes, is going to happen regardless.  She can undermine me whether I'm in the house or not.  Being a waif type she can live as though life is too hard and too scarry no matter where I am.  If she was physically threatening,  then my presence could literally be life saving, if she would rage at them, I could intervene. But, I can't vaccinate from a toxic home while I live there.  For me to say this is a radical revelation. 
She will still feed them, check homework, and so forth.  So will I, as I have been doing for years. 
I'm at that stage where anything might happen, and I'm not held in fear right now.

[lpheal]

Given that you have your kids welfare to consider, rather than saying you are stuck, say that you are choosing to maintain a difficult marriage for their benefit.

Realizing that you ARE making a choice feels a lot better than being stuck. And when you think of it that way, you may realize what limits you have that would make you choose otherwise.

Thank you for stating this. My situation feels very similar. If there were not a child involved, I would have already said enough. Together or apart I have to communicate with my wife to raise our child, so I may as well work on my communication skills now while together until I can figure out the best long term plan.

[Grey Kitty]

Together or apart I have to communicate with my wife to raise our child, so I may as well work on my communication skills now while together until I can figure out the best long term plan.

Making a "long term plan" for such a troubled marriage can be daunting. Consider working on a short term plan instead. Commit to yourself that you will stay for another month... .and that you will work hard at making the best of it during that time. (And reevaluate again in a month.)

I don't mean capitulating or agreeing, I mean using the tools here, enforcing boundaries when you need to, avoiding invalidating statements, validating when you can, etc.

And yes, you WILL need those skills no matter what for the next several years while you co-parent, even if you do decide to leave. In fact, there are a few senior members who post on the legal board after going through a HORRIBLE divorce/custody battle who said that they didn't find this site until after their marriage was done... .and wonder if they might have saved it had they found it earlier.

[anna58]

Keeping a bird's eye view is good advice. When I look down from above over the whole picture, I can see he carries a cloud of depression and chaos with him everywhere. It is sad. And I don't need that. AT ALL.

Of course the "high" side is confident, sexy, and very very engaging and attentive. But when he is that way, he isn't attending to reality. He is homeless. But he can act like he is a big shot. It reinforces to me how important it is that any man I am with is grounded and responsible.

Bird's eye view will clarify the truth. But that doesn't make it easy to act on. Oh my, that part is so difficult for me.

[lovenature]

How did you see it through to deciding to stay or go?

I looked at the positive vs. negative in my relationship, and I looked at whether it would get better or worse based on what REALITY had proven to me.

The good days can be the worst because they keep us hanging on, hoping for what we really want but know will most likely not happen. Relationships with a PWBPD require sacrifices, even if they are getting the right help.

[Faith_88]

Tired is a fitting word right now for me.  I figured out BPD.  I cracked the code, but deciphered the message that says I can pick from chaos or quiet despiration.

I totally get you SamewizeGamgee. Exactly what I'm worrying about with my own relationship going forward. It doesn't seem much of a life, does it?

My friend asked me an interesting question last night:

Imagine yourself in the most peaceful, happy place you can, a meadow, a mountain lodge, whatever fits you. Imagine the serenity, the absolute calm you feel. Now, imagine your partner walks up. How do you feel?

It was very hard for me to say this to her, but for me, my partner's sudden presence was like clouds on a sunny day. Trouble ahead. Uncertainty and definitely not peace.

The problem is, I (or we, presuming) know all of this. We know how we feel. We know we could probably 'get along' with our BPD. I do have the grass is greener thought though (someone said they didn't) and also I/we know we could probably be in an 'easier' relationship. It's the decision making, because of those good days, that gets so clouded.

Florence & the Machine sum this terrible limbo up pretty well in 'Blinding' & also 'Caught'.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Faith 88 - I have enjoyed thinking about the approach you describe - of thinking about a serene, calm setting, and then introducing my wife.  I am using that to get a deeper understanding of my feelings for her.  Over the past, it would have brought feelings of fear, panic, disappointment, edginess, and occasionally some excitement or happiness to be fair.  Now, I am armored and insulated enough to say that I would probably just feel the standard distance and awareness of what I say and do.

@lovenature - When I first started my "spiritual awakening" I tried listing the good and bad of marriage vs. divorce.  I might try that again since I know much more now, and I am not set against divorce and ruled by fear. 

I sometimes still wish of one more good rage from her.  That would seal the deal, but, it's a lack of rages, and a few good days that mix things all up.  In all, I find it hard to see the good days, or the bad days for that matter.  I am just emotionally numb more and more now. 

[formflier]

I sometimes still wish of one more good rage from her.  That would seal the deal, but, it's a lack of rages, and a few good days that mix things all up.  In all, I find it hard to see the good days, or the bad days for that matter.  I am just emotionally numb more and more now. 

I'm assuming that we are talking about "sealing the deal" on ending or continuing the r/s... .correct?

Hey... .on the one hand I totally get making decisions about facts on the ground... .metrics.  example:  1 rage per month is tolerable... .you can deal with it and you stay.  3 per month is unsustainable and you decide to go.  I'm a "metric based decision maker"... .or at least I prefer that style... .so I really identify.

However... .I'm getting the vibe that this is NOT the dynamic at play here.  Can you tell me how many rages in the past 3 months?  Did you set a limit (number) and she has exceeded that?

Is it possible that you have decided in your head and in your heart that the r/s is over and you want out, however you are looking for further justification? 

How much is needed?

How many times have you decided... ."one more and that's it... ."?


FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

I would like a r/s metric too, but, then I wouldn't be here

Yes, Sealing the Deal would mean pushing me over the hump of indecision, and me heading to a lawyer for divorce initiation.  It's odd.  I struggled for a year or so because divorce was not allowed in my mind.  I hung on, against all hope, and suffered through very bad behavior on her part.  Now though, that I've worked out my own personal permission and acceptance of divorce, it seems like she's straightened up a bit and hasn't had the really bad stuff for a while.  It's been terribly hard on her (meaning she has been doing poorly with the whole boundaries, and my better mental health, and talking about my feelings and so forth - good for me, bad for her).  If this were international politics, it seems like my neighbor country is violating everything and making a mess - until I acquire nuclear bombs - then all is good and quiet.

Although we have had several recent conversations that were serious and deep, and we have talked about foundational issues, she has not had a good-old rage for a long time.  This makes me somewhat blame myself.  If she can deal with things calmly now that I'm healthier, the past chaos must be my fault.  

I have not set a number of incidents which she has exceeded.  I have moved myself emotionally outside of her artillery range.  That cuts down the possibility and severity of events.  As for metrics, I know I'll reach a point that I've simply feel as though I have had enough of the empty marriage and want it over.  But then a little sex, infrequent as it may be, patches things up so that I go on with life as-is.  Maybe she senses this too.  

I think you recognize correctly that I've perhaps decided, or accepted, and maybe wished for the marriage to be over and I just need a justification.

As for metrics, I am back to journal writing, which was one things that opened my eyes to the idea that I was actually an OK guy.  It did give some data leading to metrics. I described her rantings, rages, moods, the effects on the kids, and so forth. It was revealing.  Now that I've resumed, I can compare the present to the way things felt a year ago.  Maybe that will provide metrics, absent a nuclear exchange, and push me to decide.  I also debate triggering her into a rage to "poke the bear" and remind me what's reality.  Almost like thinking, "I'm ready now. I know what you are, and what you've been doing.  I see you now.  I'm ready for the fight."

Lots of military analogies in this post, I hope they make sense.  Thanks for the observations and thought provoking questions.

[teapay]

Even if you are still undecided, if you take the initiative, there are still many things that you can do to help you make the decision in the future.  You can start preparing the battlefield by addressing  any concerns that might be holding you back be they financial, custody, protecting your relationship with your kids, getting yourself set up and your own mental and emotional needs.  All this is easier to do now if you are not in crisis or in a combative mode, and are just unhappy and struggling to make a decision.  Just like buying a car, it is easier to make a better decision as a strong buyer than someone whose only vehicle just went to the dump.  Financially, you might be able move money around, pay things off, help pay for college, protect assets more easily now.  Getting your W back to work and more independent would be another important thing.  You kids seem old enough.   You can continue strengthen your relationship with you kids, so it doesn’t break during or post-separation and says strong regardless of potential smears.  You can shore up your case for 50-50 custody by documenting you fitness as a parent.  You can seek counseling for yourself if you haven’t.  Although she might be resistant, if you think it is warranted you can pressure your W to get treatment if she is slipping towards the depressed side.  Getting her in a better, more independent spot, could help the whole family if you split.  If she refuses, that might be more justification to separate.

[SamwizeGamgee]

@Teapay - I feel like that was a pat on the back or a hug, whichever fits
Early on in my reawakening, I did go about the business of preparing for divorce - mostly just to remove the obstacles of fear that kept me from thinking about it (even though divorce might save my emotional life in the long run).  So, I started reading up on it, joined an online forum for dad's divorcing.  Lapped up the advice I could get there.  Although no one can guarantee what will happen in the future, I have been able to prepare for some things.  I've started a separate bank account divorce warchest, tried earnestly to model and teach emotional intelligence to the kids, kept building a solid parenting relationship with them, and so forth.   I'm trying to be that informed buyer that you refer to.  This can be my undoing too.  I tend towards over-analysis and analysis paralysis.  I wish I would have put this kind of thought into starting a marriage rather than ending a marriage.  It could  have headed off a life of hard lessons and pain.

And you know, what you're saying about the wife getting her self more healthy can only help everyone.  She makes it tolerable for me and we stay, or gets stable enough to handle her "half" of the parenting, and becomes an asset to the kids. Win, win.  And possibly, a final push for me if it doesn't go well.  That proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back.

[formflier]

SamqizeGamgee,

I wish I knew your story better.  I'll make efforts to follow you more closely. 

I still feel confident in the comments I will make below.

 Now though, that I've worked out my own personal permission and acceptance of divorce, it seems like she's straightened up a bit and hasn't had the really bad stuff for a while.

This is NOT a coincidence.  I think it shows that working on yourself WILL improve the r/s.  Although your partner may have a different opinion.

Your thoughts on this?

 It's been terribly hard on her (meaning she has been doing poorly with the whole boundaries, and my better mental health, and talking about my feelings and so forth - good for me, bad for her).

My hope is that you can think deeply about this comment.  Find a place of empathy in your heart for this and a place of knowledge in your head that this isn't your issue to solve.

Both are equally valid and important ways for you to approach the r/s.

 

This makes me somewhat blame myself.  If she can deal with things calmly now that I'm healthier, the past chaos must be my fault

No... .NO... .NOO... .       

Step waaaaay back from this thinking.

Yes... .you do have a responsibility for your role.  Please use the word responsibility instead of fault.  When dealing with her role... .and yours.  Be kind to yourself. 

You didn't know what you didn't know. 

Now you do know. 

Be kind to yourself.  (yep... .deliberate in using that twice)  What does being kind to yourself look like in the next day or two?

Since you brought up military analogies... .I'll say that's an order!   


Last thought. 

Can you give the status of your relationship a break from your thinking for a month?

Focus on your part. 

My opinion is that you have made great strides.  That has allowed you to lower your anxiety level and start dealing with some "repressed" feelings.  That is affecting your judgment on "how bad" things really are.

Focus on current reality.  Rages are much better.  Declare a tactical victory.    Be kind to yourself.  Give yourself a month off from thinking about "strategy" (long term stuff).

Perhaps in a couple of weeks you can focus on a plan to sort through the feelings from the past.  Do you have a T?


FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

I like the sound of tactical victory.  I'll make that the headlines - in my head.

I kind of feel like I have had time off from fretting about my marriage condition for a good while.  I had a very happy Christmas, and a good portion of last year was very satisfying - as I kept a very healthy distance from my wife's inner struggles.  So, I think my time off from considering divorce happened already.  I'm rested and ready for the next step. Even if it's just another baby step.

I'll note the red flag thinking you point out.  More to ponder. 
Thank you!

[Grey Kitty]

Sam, if you read your posts through this topic, you will see that you are going through an emotional roller coaster, thinking you can stay some of the time, and wanting to be done with your marriage at others.

And there is NOTHING WRONG with your feelings being all over the place like this. It is pretty natural and normal.

If you let yourself have those feelings, experience them, but not act out rashly based on them, they may settle down a bit and give you clearer guidance as to what is the right thing to do.

Meanwhile (#1) ... .if you are thinking about divorce, "normal" resources may not give you accurate expectations about how it would look. Please check out the legal board and post there--SOME pwPBD tend toward high conflict divorce/custody battles, which drag on years and cost tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees, and can include false allegations which will have you spending a night in jail... Read there. Post there. Get an educated opinion of how likely your wife is to go that direction before you file.

And meanwhile (#2) ... .work on the tools for dealing with rages, and figure out how well you can protect yourself and your kids from it when she does get triggered into a rage.

[SamwizeGamgee]

@GK - your comments are making me analyze my thinking a bit.  I looked over my first few posts on bpdfamily for when I first joined in 2015.  I know I'm better now, but some of my main points, and even the words, I use are the same. I will divide that my feelings have solidified, but, my decision and indecision to leave are what vacillates.  I did actually believe I loved my wife two years ago. I felt conflict and turmoil because of that.  

Today I am just as hesitant to think about going forward with divorce, but not conflicted about my feelings.  I have searched, and believe them dead to her now.  
I love her as I love any person on earth.  I whish them well, and peace, and hope they find happiness.  I do not have the feelings of commitment, romance, longing, understanding, community, and wanting to be in the same room as her though.  

edit: also doing some soul searching and think I do have an occasional touch of thinking the grass is greener on the other side, thinking that maybe there is someone I can love who loves me back in a mutually beneficial adult relationship.  But, those ideas are fleeting and far between. 

[Grey Kitty]

my feelings have solidified, but, my decision and indecision to leave are what vacillates.

I'm somebody who gets stuck in indecision pretty easily myself, and I've got one interesting way of pushing myself forward; in your shoes it would go like this:

Mentally commit that you WILL leave, and make fairly detailed plans on exactly how you intend to do it, and what will happen. Given the divorce/custody issue, you will have to imagine 2-3 different outcomes and length/cost of legal battles inbetween to really visualize it.

But do this without actually starting, as in talk to lawyers and make a legal plan, but don't file, don't talk to your wife about it, etc.

And then examine your feelings. You may find a true sense of relief and resolve to go forward with it. You may find feelings of regret, anxiety, sadness over it. And if it just feels wrong, mentally flip the switch the other direction, and see if you are suddenly relieved about it.

I've often said that if you feel like you are choosing to stay in an unpleasant situation because you believe it is the right thing to do, it makes all the difference.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thanks.  I was stuck due to fear last year.  Fear of the unknown of what divorce meant, and what outcome I would get.  I did talk to a few attorneys, and although no one knows what will happen, I did really appreciate having done the groundwork of legal visits. 
I've done several things in preparation, as though divorcing.  I don't regret any of them.  I have to temper my feelings, otherwise I might look forward to divorce too much, and move forward based on false hope and ambition.  It wouldn't be the first time that I talked myself into a bad decision. 
Sometimes I think that maybe I just don't like my wife enough, and want to use BPD as an excuse.
And, as my thread title says, things don't seem so bad at other times - and maybe I can just dig down, hold my nose, and stay married.

[flourdust]

I did research, gathered documents, prepared property and financial lists, interviewed attorneys, etc. for months before filing for divorce. Think of it this way: you may never pull the trigger, but you should take the gun safety class.

[Torched]

Thanks.  I was stuck due to fear last year.  Fear of the unknown of what divorce meant, and what outcome I would get.  I did talk to a few attorneys, and although no one knows what will happen, I did really appreciate having done the groundwork of legal visits. 
I've done several things in preparation, as though divorcing.  I don't regret any of them.  I have to temper my feelings, otherwise I might look forward to divorce too much, and move forward based on false hope and ambition.  It wouldn't be the first time that I talked myself into a bad decision. 
Sometimes I think that maybe I just don't like my wife enough, and want to use BPD as an excuse.
And, as my thread title says, things don't seem so bad at other times - and maybe I can just dig down, hold my nose, and stay married.

You sound like me five years ago the first time I filed for divorce.  Indecision, then downplaying what I had went through... .I knew I needed to do it though.  Then I let everyone, her family and mine (mine are saints as they had been alienated heavily by her from my children and I) convince me that her saying she would finally get therapy meant I HAD to give her a chance.

Five years later I went through with it after she began heavily alienating my children from my family as they became adolescents.  Divorce is a horrible, horrible thing to go through Samwise... .the worst I've ever experienced, but it paled in comparison to 17 years of BPD spousal experiences all accumulated in one ugly and embarassing past.  Now she's on to victim #2, and she is happy as a clam.  Me, I'm still getting there and keeping my kids' health in focus as she has pretty much tuned them out.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Torched - Thank you.  I know I'll get backlash if I ever think of divorce.  No one else can understand what it's like.  On the outside, we look like a fine couple and family.  Divorce doesn't make good money sense.  I don't think I could describe daily life in true color so that someone else would understand.  At least until they have walked the path themselves.  Then we understand - the death of a thousand cuts.
Thank you for your honesty in saying that it's a horrible ordeal.  I don't want to just hear the advice about "run away and you'll be happy."
You put it well, that although I don't have the "smoking gun" - or reason that everyone will obviously accept as a motivation for divorce - it is like you say, the accumulation of (for me) 19 years of "experience."

Crawling out from under the rock of BPD influence is like waking from a coma.  I wonder where the years have gone.  I can hardly remember life before.

[Torched]

Torched - Thank you.  I know I'll get backlash if I ever think of divorce.  No one else can understand what it's like.  On the outside, we look like a fine couple and family.  Divorce doesn't make good money sense.  I don't think I could describe daily life in true color so that someone else would understand.  At least until they have walked the path themselves.  Then we understand - the death of a thousand cuts.

Another thing that happened I anticipated from some people... .but never expected from my best friend and his wife.  They were aghast at me divorcing her.  I explained everything I had went through behind closed doors for years.  I think they were unable to really believe it.  So many of the things I see written on this board as far as daily occurrences seem so far fetched, just like mine.  I waited for them to come around, but they didn't.  Now they hang out with my ex and her new victim, all happy.  I have not talked to them since trying to explain it.  This perhaps hurts more than the rest.  It was financially difficult to take, but better at 40 than at 50... .or 50 than 60... .

One nice thing Samwise... .at the moment I divorced, there were MANY others who stepped out of the woodwork who commented about things they had seen in past years and they KNEW what I had been dealing with.  These included my uncle, my high school football coach, two satellite friends who are now best friends of mine, and plenty of women who have ulterior motives but at least "saw" things and knew it was messed up.  I didn't have to set up a support structure thanks to these people.  I am forever in their debt as they all checked in on me and supported me constantly.

[Lucky Jim]

You put it well, that although I don't have the "smoking gun" - or reason that everyone will obviously accept as a motivation for divorce - it is like you say, the accumulation of (for me) 19 years of "experience."

Hey Sam, Waiting for a "smoking gun" could end up being a thankless vigil.  Those w/BPD are quite savvy about hiding their disorder from the outside world, because they've been covering their tracks all their lives.  Trying to come up with something that others will "accept as a motivation for divorce" is sort of quixotic, because the reality is that some will never accept nor understand your reasons.  Of course, those people have no idea what it is like to be married to someone w/BPD.  You do.

My BPDxW would often come up with her own distorted perceptions of reality.  In so many words, she would try to convince me that the sky is green.  Yet I always knew that the sky is blue.  I guess what I'm saying is that, at the end of the day, you know deep down whether you have valid reasons for a divorce, if you elect to go down that path.

LuckyJim

[Meili]

This is a great discussion, but the thread has reached its posting limit, so we split the thread. The discussion continues here:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=305951.0