Holidays, vacation, surgery, BPD charades

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Greetings all!
I hope your holidays are as peaceful and memorable as they can be, when one is dealing with a person with BPD in their lives.
I’m going through a feces storm; and thought that reflection can help me whilst my therapist is over on another continent.
I’m visiting one of the “sister countries” from where I’ve originated, a neighbour to both, mine and uBPDh country of origin. It’s very unique. On one hand it’s very progressive, on the other hand, it is almost at the war with the my uBPDh country of origin. We both understand a local dialect, most speak English and another assized language that is specific to this region.
We came here for several reasons: one- it’s part of our cultural heritage, my uBPDh’s religion, language, etc. It was supposed to be cheaper then everywhere else in Europe, and finally I had a cosmetic procedure done here (read medical tourism). My uBPDh’s words caught up with me, and it was another attempt at becoming “prettier” so he would keep me... .(self reflection).
My mother, also “sleeping BPD” insisted on coming as well, on another flight, to visit family friends, relatives and helping me to recover from the surgery... .not”.
We are here for 4 days, in this short time, we visited some relatives, I underwent cosmetic surgery, my mother got sick with a flu and stayed with relatives, my uBPDh split on me, because I wasn’t caretaking and because his crypto market slightly recovered and then fell back to the baseline.
We are staying in a small condo in the middle of the city, it’s a convenient location but has only two beds, making it difficult to get own space.
My major issue out of the kitchen sink; is uBPDh splitting, again, refusing to eat or leave the bedroom, sweating and telling us to leave him alone, and my uBPDh and hysterionic mother putting on a theatre worthy show, shaming my uBPDh for “coming all the way here to stay in bed, why did you bring the children here if you aren’t showing them anything?.” She was expecting “wine and dine” experience, based on our previous trips, and full tour guided experience my uBPDh usually provides while we are on the trip. This isn’t happening this time. For one reason or another he is being defiant, and she (uBPD mother) is trying to “tighten the screws”. She just walked into the common area “announcing that she is moving out from us, and that we have successfully ruined her vacation.
It’s a shocker, for me,  for several reasons:
1.she knows who my uBPDh is, this isn’t a shocking behaviour
2. We will all have to come back to the same house, eventually
3. Her sudden departure will surely further trigger uBPDh’s abandonment issues
4. She came here (flew out) before us, to see relatives and shop, so who’s stopping her?. To explore on her own
5. Anything I do with the children, gets judged, weighted and ridiculed (oh, you only went for a walk and sightseeing)
6. Prior to us coming she was judging our family friends and relatives, for not showing her enough respect as they should
7. I refused to listen to her guilt trip, telling her to “take several steps back, I was vulnerable physically and emotionally and needed to Heal. It’s actually doctors orders to reduce stress to facilitate with the recuperating.
8. We are scheduled to move countries in a very near future- Friday, she asked me to buy her a ticket and that she would repay me, now it’s all under a question
9. I have two kids, in a foreign country, that need entertainment, care and guidance, and two adults that are acting at the primitive level of maturity
10. I don’t want to take sides, as both of them are acting in a distractive manner
11. If my mother will do the emotional “door slamming, unpdh will likely ask her to move out from our house upon her return
12. My unpdh mother is actually notorious for her door slamming, virtually and figuratively, jobs, friends, relationships, she hooks people, but once people are free from the spell, no one ever came back
13. My priority is staying calm in the midst of the storm, so the children don’t get scared, freaked out, confused
14. I need time and low stress hormone to heal
15. I don’t know how to save either of them from possible consequences, even if I wanted to. He already “ruined her vacation” by staying in his room and not being social or actively showing her good time. She is making plans to move out from the shared rental, which, from what I know about him will trigger the smear campaign, the one even I won’t be able to clear out.
16. This dynamics reminds me of being stuck between my mom and dad, when all they were concerned with, is the amount of dirt they have poured all over each other. Trying to prove who is the “worst” parent. Thus, I’m being triggered with cptsd.
17. My therapist can’t do remote session in another country.

Thank you all for reading, if anyone has a suggestion, I’m all ears and eyes on how to maneuver out of this storm.

[snowglobe]

Greetings all!
I hope your holidays are as peaceful and memorable as they can be, when one is dealing with a person with BPD in their lives.
I’m going through a feces storm; and thought that reflection can help me whilst my therapist is over on another continent.
I’m visiting one of the “sister countries” from where I’ve originated, a neighbour to both, mine and uBPDh country of origin. It’s very unique. On one hand it’s very progressive, on the other hand, it is almost at the war with the my uBPDh country of origin. We both understand a local dialect, most speak English and another assized language that is specific to this region.
We came here for several reasons: one- it’s part of our cultural heritage, my uBPDh’s religion, language, etc. It was supposed to be cheaper then everywhere else in Europe, and finally I had a cosmetic procedure done here (read medical tourism). My uBPDh’s words caught up with me, and it was another attempt at becoming “prettier” so he would keep me... .(self reflection).
My mother, also “sleeping BPD” insisted on coming as well, on another flight, to visit family friends, relatives and helping me to recover from the surgery... .not”.
We are here for 4 days, in this short time, we visited some relatives, I underwent cosmetic surgery, my mother got sick with a flu and stayed with relatives, my uBPDh split on me, because I wasn’t caretaking and because his crypto market slightly recovered and then fell back to the baseline.
We are staying in a small condo in the middle of the city, it’s a convenient location but has only two beds, making it difficult to get own space.
My major issue out of the kitchen sink; is uBPDh splitting, again, refusing to eat or leave the bedroom, sweating and telling us to leave him alone, and my uBPDh and hysterionic mother putting on a theatre worthy show, shaming my uBPDh for “coming all the way here to stay in bed, why did you bring the children here if you aren’t showing them anything?.” She was expecting “wine and dine” experience, based on our previous trips, and full tour guided experience my uBPDh usually provides while we are on the trip. This isn’t happening this time. For one reason or another he is being defiant, and she (uBPD mother) is trying to “tighten the screws”. She just walked into the common area “announcing that she is moving out from us, and that we have successfully ruined her vacation.
It’s a shocker, for me,  for several reasons:
1.she knows who my uBPDh is, this isn’t a shocking behaviour
2. We will all have to come back to the same house, eventually
3. Her sudden departure will surely further trigger uBPDh’s abandonment issues
4. She came here (flew out) before us, to see relatives and shop, so who’s stopping her?. To explore on her own
5. Anything I do with the children, gets judged, weighted and ridiculed (oh, you only went for a walk and sightseeing)
6. Prior to us coming she was judging our family friends and relatives, for not showing her enough respect as they should
7. I refused to listen to her guilt trip, telling her to “take several steps back, I was vulnerable physically and emotionally and needed to Heal. It’s actually doctors orders to reduce stress to facilitate with the recuperating.
8. We are scheduled to move countries in a very near future- Friday, she asked me to buy her a ticket and that she would repay me, now it’s all under a question
9. I have two kids, in a foreign country, that need entertainment, care and guidance, and two adults that are acting at the primitive level of maturity
10. I don’t want to take sides, as both of them are acting in a distractive manner
11. If my mother will do the emotional “door slamming, unpdh will likely ask her to move out from our house upon her return
12. My unpdh mother is actually notorious for her door slamming, virtually and figuratively, jobs, friends, relationships, she hooks people, but once people are free from the spell, no one ever came back
13. My priority is staying calm in the midst of the storm, so the children don’t get scared, freaked out, confused
14. I need time and low stress hormone to heal
15. I don’t know how to save either of them from possible consequences, even if I wanted to. He already “ruined her vacation” by staying in his room and not being social or actively showing her good time. She is making plans to move out from the shared rental, which, from what I know about him will trigger the smear campaign, the one even I won’t be able to clear out.
16. This dynamics reminds me of being stuck between my mom and dad, when all they were concerned with, is the amount of dirt they have poured all over each other. Trying to prove who is the “worst” parent. Thus, I’m being triggered with cptsd.
17. My therapist can’t do remote session in another country.

Thank you all for reading, if anyone has a suggestion, I’m all ears and eyes on how to maneuver out of this storm.

[Notwendy]

I wish I had a suggestion but I don’t think there’s much you can do. You’ve had a surgical procedure and you aren’t 100% - this fits the HALT idea- don’t discuss issues with a spouse when you are not at your best. The trip is temporary. You can’t control either your mother or your H. If they go at it with each other there’s not much you can do.

Get as much rest as you can. The kids will be ok. So they get bored - there’s TV shows via internet everywhere. It won’t be a great vacation for them but they will be ok.

I know I’d go bonkers in a 2 bed place with hubby, BPD mom and kids all in a small space but I think I’d just have to take it one moment at a time. The vacation will be over in a bit... .take care of yourself.

[snowglobe]

I wish I had a suggestion but I don’t think there’s much you can do. You’ve had a surgical procedure and you aren’t 100% - this fits the HALT idea- don’t discuss issues with a spouse when you are not at your best. The trip is temporary. You can’t control either your mother or your H. If they go at it with each other there’s not much you can do.

Get as much rest as you can. The kids will be ok. So they get bored - there’s TV shows via internet everywhere. It won’t be a great vacation for them but they will be ok.

I know I’d go bonkers in a 2 bed place with hubby, BPD mom and kids all in a small space but I think I’d just have to take it one moment at a time. The vacation will be over in a bit... .take care of yourself.

NotWendy,
Thank you so much for showing up. I’m slowly getting better, but it will take some time to get to my baseline. Things haven’t been solid with either of them for a while. With his recent job loss, crypto market crush, ... .the sky falling, uBPDh is all kinds of dysregulated. So is uBPD mom. When their hopes don’t match the reality, they choose to force others to converge to make the picture align. Being sick, is one of uBPDh triggers, yet, I’m great full wholeheartedly for this opportunity to invest and improve in myself.
I will try and stay rational, while working on my relationships, primarily with uBPDh. Between the two devils, you’d be surprised, he tends to be the lesser one.

[snowglobe]

The silence is deafening, it’s a day two torture coming my way. UBPDh is mopping around; me saying “baby, honey” the pet names I usually call him perhaps invalidating for him. When I say: “honey, let’s go for breakfast”, he snaps back “don’t baby me, don’t call me honey, your hon is dead”. “Call me by my name, and no, I won’t come along with you”. This is the worst vacation ever (two days ago he was ok), it will cost me money. NotWendy, I’m so angry with him. I don’t get any emotional breaks. The dynamics with him towards me moves from tolerable to super bad, it never rises below. I would love to, for someone to pay me a compliment, a hug, inquire about my well being. Anything. But nope, it’s all about him, showing me how much he hates me, and can’t wait to get rid of me. I hate the fact that the children see it. I can only begin to understand the emotional scars it will inflict on both of them, seeing their mother rejected every time she approaches. I’m trying to remain calm, when both unpdh and uBPD mother are both cycling. This isn’t about me, I try to convince myself. But all I see is an ugly human being, who isn’t worthy of being loved, unless I’m useful in some capacity.

[Notwendy]

I can relate to how you are feeling, and yes, my BPD mother is a greater challenge. I had a similar programming. My mother told me I was unlovable and felt I had to be useful to be loved. I understand how you would put your own self worth in the eyes of your H, but as adults, we know this is being co-dependent and not good for us, or for your H to do this.

From your posts, I see you are still very much invested in your marriage and trying to get approval and love from your H. You are also sad and disappointed when he isn't able to give it to you. The intermittent attention from him is reinforcing. You are both reinforcing each other's behavior. You know that for anything to change, someone has to change the pattern, but as much as you are hurting, I don't get the sense that you want to or feel courageous enough to.

To start with, I think you have to gain the confidence that you are lovable and worthy of love. Yet looking at your H, or your mother for that may not help as they may not be capable of giving you self worth. It's something we have to gain for ourselves. For you, it may be spiritually- your Creator endowed you with self worth, or as a mother, or a student, but it may not be possible to gain your self worth from trying to please disordered people. You don't have to be useful to be worthy of love. You are worthy of it. I hope you can believe that.

[Notwendy]

How are you Snowglobe ?

[snowglobe]

How are you Snowglobe ?

Dear Wendy,
As you can imagine, hellish.
I went through with the surgery I wanted, he split on me thereafter- not attractive and could not take care of him. I managed to bring him back through massages, overt care taking and involvement with the kids. Browny points right there. We had an ok time, then we left to another European country for New Years celebration, all of us;uBPDh, kids and my mother. Huge mistake. She was anticipating the same experience he was giving me, when we travel. And came to a disappointing halt, as he refused to partake in anything, saying that “he doesn’t want to be here, he was forced my Snowglobe’s wife (me), didn’t want to pay for museums, attractions, dining. She was very vocal about it (I understand her too, if he didn’t want to do anything, why was he offering and asking if she would join us). Then she tuned nasty. And it begun, the more they baited each other with sarcasm, small insults, mockery and disrespect, the nuclear situation grew. My kids have been trying to figure out whose side to take, eldest d15 started copycating uBPDh. Asking to “send her home, because she didn’t want to be there”. So there I was, in the midst of my European tour, that I have dreamt of for 20 years, miserable as I could be, being blamed by uBPD mother and berated by updh. I did the only thing I could: I purchased my mother a one way ticket back to the country we were visiting before, we have relatives there and she will have a place to stay for New Years. She is disappointed, but it got so ugly just now, that uBPDh demanded for “your mother to move out, if I’m so bad, as you mother thinks I’m, why is she living with us? Tell her to move out in a month”.
So here I am, still 6 days away from going back home, uBPDh who is being super stingy with money, mother who feels betrayed and blames me for her ruined vacation. On top all of that, he is likely to hold a grudge and actually follow through with a threat of kicking my parents out. I will have no help, as uBPDh doesn’t partake in any chores or child rearing. I’m crushed, and disappointed with myself. I should have known better, when I was entertaining the idea of all of us being on vacation. In a small space, where there isn’t any room, unpdh’s business sinking, my mother wanting a good time, I should have not even made this route.

[Notwendy]

It sounds really difficult.

I think it is hard to not imagine a happy family vacation. In actuality, they tend to be difficult for many reasons. I think that most people feel a bit unsettled when their routine is changed, it is just that some people handle it better than others. I don't think pwBPD handle this well.I know that I sometimes feel a bit "off" when there is a change in routine.

At home, everyone is in familiar surroundings and has their individual schedules- school, work. On vacation, everyone is together more, in unfamiliar surroundings, and also smaller spaces. For people who may not handle this well, this is a potentially difficult situation. I know that when my H and I are cooped up in a hotel room - this is often when we have more difficulty. Holidays and vacations are actually more difficult for us than when we are at home with our own routines.

You are the person who "manages" the emotional tension in your family. In this situation you were not as available to do this as you had surgery. Families have their own dynamics and here, the dynamics changed and this also added to the potential for issues.

I don't see these experiences as something wrong. You did the best you could- and with good intentions. It is disappointing. I hope though that you learned something about this that will help you in the future.

I recall one of the first nice vacations planned with my H. It was actually a work related trip for me during the time I was working. When we discussed it, my H agreed to watch the kids so I could go to a meeting and then, we'd have time together at a nice place. I thought all was planned. Once we got there, he just flat out refused. I was then stranded with the kids at the last minute.  When we discussed what happened  he denied the issue- acted as if it was my fault. I tried a work related trip again,  and  there were issues, disregulations, silent treatments.  I learned to not try to combine a family trip with anything I needed to do. We did other family vacations that went better- I was available all the time but they were still potentially difficult.

I know it is hard to resist the wish for a nice family trip, but I know in my situation, it can be a recipe for difficulty. It's not that we can't do it at all, but I try to think of ways to minimize issues- be available, the size of the place we are staying in ( so there is space). I know this is disappointing to you but I hope you are well the rest of the time and can get some peace when you return.

[snowglobe]

It sounds really difficult.

I think it is hard to not imagine a happy family vacation. In actuality, they tend to be difficult for many reasons. I think that most people feel a bit unsettled when their routine is changed, it is just that some people handle it better than others. I don't think pwBPD handle this well.I know that I sometimes feel a bit "off" when there is a change in routine.

At home, everyone is in familiar surroundings and has their individual schedules- school, work. On vacation, everyone is together more, in unfamiliar surroundings, and also smaller spaces. For people who may not handle this well, this is a potentially difficult situation. I know that when my H and I are cooped up in a hotel room - this is often when we have more difficulty. Holidays and vacations are actually more difficult for us than when we are at home with our own routines.

You are the person who "manages" the emotional tension in your family. In this situation you were not as available to do this as you had surgery. Families have their own dynamics and here, the dynamics changed and this also added to the potential for issues.

I don't see these experiences as something wrong. You did the best you could- and with good intentions. It is disappointing. I hope though that you learned something about this that will help you in the future.

I recall one of the first nice vacations planned with my H. It was actually a work related trip for me during the time I was working. When we discussed it, my H agreed to watch the kids so I could go to a meeting and then, we'd have time together at a nice place. I thought all was planned. Once we got there, he just flat out refused. I was then stranded with the kids at the last minute.  When we discussed what happened  he denied the issue- acted as if it was my fault. I tried a work related trip again,  and  there were issues, disregulations, silent treatments.  I learned to not try to combine a family trip with anything I needed to do. We did other family vacations that went better- I was available all the time but they were still potentially difficult.

I know it is hard to resist the wish for a nice family trip, but I know in my situation, it can be a recipe for difficulty. It's not that we can't do it at all, but I try to think of ways to minimize issues- be available, the size of the place we are staying in ( so there is space). I know this is disappointing to you but I hope you are well the rest of the time and can get some peace when you return.

Dear Wendy,
What an amazing observation of your experience, I never had to combine work and travel, but in my case, combining anyone with us is a recipe for a disaster. He splits. During the day, as we are approaching the New Years he started recruiting the children as his little soldiers “say thank you to your selfish mommy for you having this G-d aweful time”. Never mind he decided that he isn’t spending, and that’s why our experience are more on a budget side. By alienating the children, he is creating a tormoil, waiting for me to snap. So he can unleash the ugliness he thinks I deserve. Without my mother here, I have no protection from him emotionally or physically. I would have booked the return tickets home, but they are unreasonably overpriced.
He then decided to turn up the heat by saying that upon our return he he moving out of our bedroom to the basement and selling the house. When I said I’m not selling, he said, then you give me half of the money for the house. Wendy, I’m not sure if it’s his ace card, or he really wants to sell our house, which is almost paid off. When things are bad, and I don’t try to placate him, it’s always the same tune
1. Silent treatment
2. Moving out from shared bedroom
3. Divorce threats
4. Financial abuse- denying the necessities
5. House sale threat
6.rarely threats to take the kids away, mostly parental alienation
Based on your non bias opinion, and what you gather from my posts, is he pulling the plugs for Teddy to become Teddy, or is he trying to genuinely get rid of me

Off topic
As a Jew, I believe in Mitzvah. I’m not sure what your believes are, but you have really helped me through this year. You gave me hope to live and survive another year.

[Notwendy]

I'm so touched to have been a help to you.

I can't begin to guess what your H has in mind by his threats. I think it would help to look at his patterns. He has threatened before and the result is you have increased your caretaking of him. This is a double reinforcement. The threats work- to get him what he wants. You are reinforced by the fact that your caretaking works to get him to let go of the threats. With this double reinforcement for both of you, the behaviors continue.

On your part it is your fears- if he moves out of the bedroom, you miss his attention and also aren't able to physically caretake him, which is a security to both of you. I don't know if this is likely to change since each of you relate to each other in ways that are being reinforced.

To change these kinds of behaviors- one person has to change the reinforcement. It will take neutralizing his threats by not rewarding them, but that has a risk- he might escalate- you must keep yourself safe, and he may actually follow through on them.

I don't know if he will kick your mother out or not, but he benefits from her being there. When she is there, you are more available to travel with him and meet his needs.

It takes effort to replace a "Teddy". I'm inclined to think that a person would hold on to their Teddy. He needs you in this sense.

Take care of yourself - I am glad you feel safe posting here. I think growth and change are individual- only when ready. You don't like your situation but it is also a security to you. I hope you can take some small steps to look after yourself.

[snowglobe]

I'm so touched to have been a help to you.

I can't begin to guess what your H has in mind by his threats. I think it would help to look at his patterns. He has threatened before and the result is you have increased your caretaking of him. This is a double reinforcement. The threats work- to get him what he wants. You are reinforced by the fact that your caretaking works to get him to let go of the threats. With this double reinforcement for both of you, the behaviors continue.

On your part it is your fears- if he moves out of the bedroom, you miss his attention and also aren't able to physically caretake him, which is a security to both of you. I don't know if this is likely to change since each of you relate to each other in ways that are being reinforced.

To change these kinds of behaviors- one person has to change the reinforcement. It will take neutralizing his threats by not rewarding them, but that has a risk- he might escalate- you must keep yourself safe, and he may actually follow through on them.

I don't know if he will kick your mother out or not, but he benefits from her being there. When she is there, you are more available to travel with him and meet his needs.

It takes effort to replace a "Teddy". I'm inclined to think that a person would hold on to their Teddy. He needs you in this sense.

Take care of yourself - I am glad you feel safe posting here. I think growth and change are individual- only when ready. You don't like your situation but it is also a security to you. I hope you can take some small steps to look after yourself.

That book you recommended, the controlling people, it out things into perspective more so, then anything else. Additionally, I do agree about double reinforcement. As I’m not employed, and unable to provide for myself and children, caretaking becomes the currency. I caretake, he continues providing. When he refuses caretakkng; like now, he says “I am moving you out to sleep with d15, while I sleep with s11”. He is also not allowing us to go inside of the museums, or enjoy food. He isn’t buying what I’m selling. Thus, logically, if I go to work and provide for myself, I no longer need to caretake him.
I’m really afraid of being alone. This intermittent attention is as potent as a drug.

[formflier]

I’m really afraid of being alone. This intermittent attention is as potent as a drug.

This is a place to spend some time.  Lots to unpack here. 

My new years wish for you is that you are able to live your life and harness your fear.  It's not that you won't have fear, but fear will help you focus... .yet you are still able to make healthy decisions for yourself.

How are you feeling with your surgery recovery?

Best

FF

[formflier]

  I managed to bring him back through massages, overt care taking and involvement with the kids.

New years are times for reflection on where we have been, what has changed and where we want to go.

Snowglobe

You are changing for the better.  I want to encourage you to keep up the hard work you are doing with your therapist and on these boards. 

What kind of advice do you think we would give about the highlighted quote?  If this situation comes up next year... .how do you hope you would act/react then?

FF

[Notwendy]

This intermittent attention is as potent as a drug.


Yes, it is. It was an eye opener for me to learn this in co-dependency work. 

The concept of "emotional sobriety" interested me. Eventually I understood it. After these kinds of emotional arguments and drama- the intermittent relationship reinforcement, I would feel really bad the next day. I then understood the term "emotional hangover" and realized the emotional drama- the intermittent reinforcement- acted like a form of addiction. What's interesting is that this kind of "drug" is free, legal, and available as it is our own behavior.

I know you are in a difficult situation but this one you can work on on your own. You don't have to leave your marriage to work on this. If you could just get to a meeting, work with your sponsor on attaining emotional sobriety, your emotional state when your H is dysregulating will be calmer. It will still be scary, but being able to manage that better would feel better to you.

[formflier]

The concept of "emotional sobriety" interested me. Eventually I understood it.  

I'm still working through this.  Generally if people get worked up about something they "shouldn't"... .my alarm bell for emotional sobriety goes off and I try to back away or "retreat" in to my thoughtful mind.  Then I try  to make sure that any involvement I have comes from a place of "thoughtfulness" vice an emotion.

Especially if when I "think" about it there seems to be a clear view of people "playing" persecutor, rescuer or victim.

For me... .I have to be careful about assuming persecutor or rescuer role.

Snowglobe

What are your thoughts on the roles people played on your current trip?

FF

[snowglobe]

My new years wish for you is that you are able to live your life and harness your fear.  It's not that you won't have fear, but fear will help you focus... .yet you are still able to make healthy decisions for yourself.
How are you feeling with your surgery recovery?

Best

FF

Dear Ff, what a lovely wish, I’m slowly working towards that goal. It would be my absolute dream of living my life not dictated by fears, anxiety and rapid firing decision making. Especially at the moment. The New Year’s Eve was particularly painful. UBPDh didn’t let us go anywhere, instead, with little food and overwhelming amount of walking, my youngest s11 succumbed to stomach flu. High fever, vomiting, diarrhoea, you know the drill, you are lucky dad to many wonderful kids, from what I know. I’ve spent the night care taking and passed out just before the new year, but to be honest, it’s hard to keep my spirits up. He is in a mixed episode of both, BPD and bipolar. Cycling, manically checking crypto rates, and speaking to himself, “this is the end... .what a crush and burn”. This morning when we woke up, he announced that “he doesn’t see any future with me, thus, he came to a conclusion that it’s over, and his business collapse is all your (my?.) fault. (Because at one point I told him that money isn’t everything, when it’s the end goal. The amount of money he makes isn’t important, it’s how he chooses to spend it. He could have very comfortably cashed out, at many levels of the drop. Yet, his gambling addiction and greed, also gamblers fallacy, which he wants to hear nothing of, prevented him from doing that. To those accusations I replied “honey, I wish I had that kind of power to influence the events. I would have wished for you to make billions and see you happy and successful. Unfortunately, I don’t”. He then proceeded to say that upon our return home, he is moving out, as he sees no future with a person he isn’t attracted to, doesn’t love, doesn’t find interesting or sexually attractive. Thank you for 17 years, but I’m done. So I’m generously giving you 3 choices
1. I let you stay in the house until February, you will sell, give me a half and f-CK off from my life. It should cover a small condo (no mention on division of access, magical thinking, that he keeps his still running business and crypto currencies)
2. He moves out, before we sell. He is moving out from our joint bedroom regardless as he says he can’t stand me. Moving to the basement
3. He can make it ugly (whatever it means)
All in front of a sick s11. I told him I don’t want any of the offers, as they don’t offer win/win scenario and I don’t want dissolution of the family. I also said that I won’t discuss relationships in front of sick s11.
He then said that we have to go rent a car and move to another Western European city, 5 hrs away. We came back, loaded our bags and drove out. Sometimes I was getting a feelings as if nothing is happening, but then I would get a whiplash memories of him saying those things in the morning. I begin to realize that I don’t trust him. I haven’t, ever, really. I also felt that I had this overwhelming urge to run or hurt him (fight or flight) and only dbt “stop” prevented me from inflicting further trauma on the kids.
How much can a person hate another to do this?. I’be put my life on hold, my children, to follow him and make sure he is ok for the past 1.5 years to be accused of sabotaging?. His success and be broken up with on vacation. What’s worse is that he is planning to kick my parents out, just when they have rented out their property for another year.
My surgery is healing, ever so slowly, I can’t describe the amount of stress I’m under. It starts to look better, I’m sure that the final result will be visually appealing. He mentioned that now I can use my face to hook a new husband?. Sick
Ff, I told myself that if I’m meant to go through this, 34 is a good age to start over. I would prefer to hate him, and not wait for him to turn corners and give me some affection, like a bone. One thing I told myself; if he goes through with threats, then so be it. I will live through it once, and no more. I won’t do back in forth, and not because of me, but because of the children. They deserve at least one stable home.

[snowglobe]

What kind of advice do you think we would give about the highlighted quote?  If this situation comes up next year... .how do you hope you would act/react then?
FF

You would probably say, “do you want to do this again, again and again, next year, in 5 years, in 10 years?.”
Or do you want him to make his choice if he wants to be with you? He might leave, which is 50%. But things could actually turn for better, as he would know that you won’t stick around for abuse and put downs.
I would hope to disconnect from him at the time of the splitting. Let him calm himself down, without feeding the fire, but also without reinforcing. Self improve. Do things you love, that are good for you. Study hard, finish your degree, work out, start looking for a job that will put you out there. Where you will meet new people. Get the accurate reflection of who you are. Attend codependent anonymous. Try to work through your cptsd. Meditate. Spend time with children. Live you life. He will either “connect the dots and start changing as well”, or he will move and make a room for someone who could appreciate you and want to be with you for a change.

[snowglobe]

This intermittent attention is as potent as a drug.

I know you are in a difficult situation but this one you can work on on your own. You don't have to leave your marriage to work on this. If you could just get to a meeting, work with your sponsor on attaining emotional sobriety, your emotional state when your H is dysregulating will be calmer. It will still be scary, but being able to manage that better would feel better to you.

Now that I live in one place consistently, my New Years resolution is to become emotionally sober through codependent anonymous

[snowglobe]

I'm still working through this.  Generally if people get worked up about something they "shouldn't"... .my alarm bell for emotional sobriety goes off and I try to back away or "retreat" in to my thoughtful mind.  Then I try  to make sure that any involvement I have comes from a place of "thoughtfulness" vice an emotion.

Especially if when I "think" about it there seems to be a clear view of people "playing" persecutor, rescuer or victim.

For me... .I have to be careful about assuming persecutor or rescuer role.

Snowglobe

What are your thoughts on the roles people played on your current trip?

FF

Interesting thought Ff, took me by surprise.
Very evidently uBPDh was in punishing prosecutors mode, my mother was a victim, passive aggressive, dissatisfied for him not providing 5 people including her with top notch European vacation. I kept on running as a rescuer, between unpdh and my uBPD mother, as they were switching the roles, taking turns being victims and prosecutors. I do feel responsible for my mothers happiness. It made me uncomfortable and guilty that uBPDh was snapping at me and not even as much as providing basics such as food. Of course there were other options, such as cooking at home for example. That would eliminate the entire pressure of dining out and spending more money. She didn’t want that. Which actually brings me to my next point, Ff.
I’m petrified that uBPDh will 1. Kick my parents out
2. Sell the house
3. Divorce me
4. Alienate the children
All very prominent and present thoughts
I’m having panic attacks every time these thoughts cross my mind. I don’t want it to happen. Yet, another side of my brain, aka my therapist’s voice in my mind says “Snowglobe, let’s take the absolute worse scenario. Let’s play it out in detail. You will survive, you will still live and breathe and make it out”.

[formflier]

What has happened before when you "called your hubby's bluff"?  Generally speaking.

Does the feared doomsday show up?

FF

[snowglobe]

What has happened before when you "called your hubby's bluff"?  Generally speaking.

Does the feared doomsday show up?

FF

I only did that once- he actually left for the night, and didn’t come home. He met me as I was walking our infant daughter the next day at the park, demanding the divorce and the division of the custody. He also had me move out (we were living with my parents at that time, in their condo) and move upstairs to a separate property. This is when the major side of abuse happened. I never called the blufs after that.

[Notwendy]

One good thing about the 12 steps is that you work on dealing with fear. I think it is important to continue working with your therapist on your CPTSD. Your H s threats are scary to you and I hope you can work on coping with your fears and staying safe from abuse.

With a sponsor you work one on one with fear. It takes some practice. If you can just stay in the moment - even if just for a while the fears will come, you will feel them , then they pass. You’ve had some practice with this kind of thing- labor. Contractions come, they hurt, them they go. You breathe through them. Try that when you feel them but also stay with your T- Let her help you. Also get a sponsor and let them help you too...

For now- you are not home yet. Take this one minute at a time. The threats are a fear for the future. They may or may not happen. There is no need to panic over them right now. Stay in the moment ( and stay safe if he escalates)

[Notwendy]

You are both using each other to manage painful feelings. He projects his hurt by hurting you and threatening. You manage your fear by caretaking him. You are both benefitting from this pattern even though it has a high emotional cost to you. For any change to happen on your part- you need to learn to manage your own painful feelings and fears. Once you can do this - your urge to caretake him will change.

You CAN do this. Maybe not all at once but in steps. Try first to just breathe through a fear- for just a moment. Practice it. Take note of what you are feeling when you feel the urge to caretake him. You may not be able to resist it all at once and also it’s harder on a trip in close quarters. Trying to keep the peace may be your best option until you get home. Just try to take a second when you get the urge. Take note of it. See if you can breathe through it for a pause.

[Cat Familiar]

Snowglobe,
How are things going? It sounds like you need a vacation to recover from your vacation!

Cat

[Harri]

This thread reached the post limit and has been locked.  Some replies have been split off and start part 2 found here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=333013.msg13026602#msg13026602