My concern about divorce

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Which is why I asked some quantitative questions about amount of time Enabler spends with his kids now.  Said another way, how much influence does he have now.

So this can be compared to other choices.

Absolutely it can get better (for Enabler and the kids), it can also get worse.

Current situation:

Mon - Fri - Typically 2hrs time spent exclusively with children from 18:30-20:30 (when I arrive home to bedtime) Typically 3hrs on a Friday - I have been out 40 evenings this year so far (16.66% of week night evenings, although this statistic is slightly higher than reality since I typically might go out after spending time with the kids)

Sat - Sun - Typically a large proportion of the weekends unless my W is out with the children. So lets assume about 13hrs a day -  I have been out 11 evenings this year so far (11.45% of weekend evenings, although this statistic is slightly higher than reality because I typically see the kids all day before going out, I also take the children with me to things like family events

Holidays - I have a 2 week holiday on my own with the kids. I have also taken the children camping for a weekend in the last 2 years (2 nights). I have also taken the kids to my mums holiday home for a couple of nights.

Going forwards:

Mon - Fri - Limited contact, phone calls and whatsapp. Potential for dinner dates (all kids) for 2 hours, and homework runs (D11 and D9) where they are able to stay up late and require specific help with work. Potential for Mum to stay over enabling me to have the children overnight although as things stand with work I would not gain interaction time in the morning as I would be leaving fro work at 06:00. W has expressed that she would be keen for me to baby sit the kids (around at her house) to continue her current social calendar, to which I have said "No" on the basis that it would be inappropriate given the grounds for divorce. It would also just be a continuation of the marriage where she has poor boundaries when it comes to the consumption of my time, and I have poor boundaries stopping her. If I look after the kids, it's round at my home.

Sat - Sun - Likely every other week, I cannot see W wanting to formalise every weekend. That said, I can see W pushing kids onto me to facilitate her social life so potentially more than every other weekend. I can see that relationship being weaponised with FOG as well.

Holidays - 25 Days exclusive access. 2 weeks in the summer, rotation on other holidays, formal calendar for Christmas and Easter significant days, in alignment with current family rotation which has been in place since we married i.e. my family is Boxing Day this year, next year it will be Christmas Day etc etc.


My concern re access isn't just gross quantity, it's how that is dispersed over time. Small interactions every day are of greater value than large chunks (not saying large chunks are not critical as well). The conversations we have where I lie on D11 and D9's beds and have a chat about their day, they tell me what they're up to, we chat about random things like how big the universe is and what it would be like to do a bush tucker trial on 'I'm a celebrity get me out of her'... those are meaningful moments. You can't really store them up for every other weekend. D11 also has a tendency to loose it, I am good at pacifying her, W is not so good.

Does that paint a picture for you FF?

Enabler   

[Enabler]

Which is why I asked some quantitative questions about amount of time Enabler spends with his kids now.  Said another way, how much influence does he have now.

So this can be compared to other choices.

Absolutely it can get better (for Enabler and the kids), it can also get worse.

Current situation:

Mon - Fri - Typically 2hrs time spent exclusively with children from 18:30-20:30 (when I arrive home to bedtime) Typically 3hrs on a Friday - I have been out 40 evenings this year so far (16.66% of week night evenings, although this statistic is slightly higher than reality since I typically might go out after spending time with the kids)

Sat - Sun - Typically a large proportion of the weekends unless my W is out with the children. So lets assume about 13hrs a day -  I have been out 11 evenings this year so far (11.45% of weekend evenings, although this statistic is slightly higher than reality because I typically see the kids all day before going out, I also take the children with me to things like family events

Holidays - I have a 2 week holiday on my own with the kids. I have also taken the children camping for a weekend in the last 2 years (2 nights). I have also taken the kids to my mums holiday home for a couple of nights.

Going forwards:

Mon - Fri - Limited contact, phone calls and whatsapp. Potential for dinner dates (all kids) for 2 hours, and homework runs (D11 and D9) where they are able to stay up late and require specific help with work. Potential for Mum to stay over enabling me to have the children overnight although as things stand with work I would not gain interaction time in the morning as I would be leaving fro work at 06:00. W has expressed that she would be keen for me to baby sit the kids (around at her house) to continue her current social calendar, to which I have said "No" on the basis that it would be inappropriate given the grounds for divorce. It would also just be a continuation of the marriage where she has poor boundaries when it comes to the consumption of my time, and I have poor boundaries stopping her. If I look after the kids, it's round at my home.

Sat - Sun - Likely every other week, I cannot see W wanting to formalise every weekend. That said, I can see W pushing kids onto me to facilitate her social life so potentially more than every other weekend. I can see that relationship being weaponised with FOG as well.

Holidays - 25 Days exclusive access. 2 weeks in the summer, rotation on other holidays, formal calendar for Christmas and Easter significant days, in alignment with current family rotation which has been in place since we married i.e. my family is Boxing Day this year, next year it will be Christmas Day etc etc.


My concern re access isn't just gross quantity, it's how that is dispersed over time. Small interactions every day are of greater value than large chunks (not saying large chunks are not critical as well). The conversations we have where I lie on D11 and D9's beds and have a chat about their day, they tell me what they're up to, we chat about random things like how big the universe is and what it would be like to do a bush tucker trial on 'I'm a celebrity get me out of her'... those are meaningful moments. You can't really store them up for every other weekend. D11 also has a tendency to loose it, I am good at pacifying her, W is not so good.

Does that paint a picture for you FF?

Enabler   

[formflier]

Good, that paints a picture for me and I totally agree about the little moments.

So the picture going forward.

Is that your "best" case, "better", or "good".

I get it that you don't want/choose divorce.  If divorce happens, you will still have influence and choices.

With that in mind, I'm hoping you can write out "good", "better", "best" for agreements you would sign.

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

I think what I have written is my expected outcome.

Better outcome would be that work permit and encourage working from home and I am able to take/pick up kids from school a day a week in addition to the above.

Best would be that I met a new partner (post divorce) who was willing to patch the gaps where I can't due to work i.e. 06:00 to school drop off, school pick-up till 18:30, enabling 50/50 split. That said, part of me thinks that FORMAL 50/50 would be very unpalatable for W, flexible or 'it just works out that way' 50/50 split... or even 75/25 split might be agreeable when it suits her.  

Promising X and under delivering is a massive NO vs Promising X-1 and consistently delivering.

[formflier]

Can you focus on the child custody agreement part of this and write out an agreement you would be silly to walk away from.

Why?

On the one hand, I don't think your wife wants a divorce.  I think she is using divorce for some other reason, very likely that reason shifts a lot.  Bottom line, her motivations are not knowable.

It's very likely she will stumble around and cause a divorce without intending it.

Therefore, it's important for you to have though this through and have an agreement ready to propose or as a counter-proposal.

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

This would be my backstop with respect to access. She is not keen on a child order. I would like to protect my bare minimum access

Every other weekend starting Friday evening at 18:30 to 20:00 Sunday evening.

One night a week 18:00-20:00, dinner at mine

One overnight stay every other week midweek (to be confirmed with work) - Monday

2 consecutive weeks Summer holiday - fixed 2 weeks every year (first 2 weeks of the summer holidays probably)

Rotation of other half term weeks and Easter holidays... e.g. There are 3x 1 week half term holidays, 2 weeks at Christmas (less concerned about as there are significant events covered by general rotation) and 2 weeks at Easter. Exclude Christmas in the rotation.

Autumn HT - Yr - 1 / 3 / 5 / 7
Spring HT - Yr - 2 / 4 / 6 / 8
Easter 1 -  Yr - 1 / 3 / 5 / 7
Easter 2 - Yr - 2 / 4 / 6 / 8
Summer HT - Yr - 1 / 3 / 5 / 7

Christmas Rotation

Christmas Eve + Christmas Day (09:00 - 09:00 T+2) - Yr - 1 / 3 / 5 / 7
Boxing Day (09:00 - 09:00 T+1) - Yr - 2 / 4 / 6 / 8
New Years Eve (09:00 - 09:00 T+1) - Yr - 2 / 4 / 6 / 8
New Years Day (09:00 - 09:00 T+1) - - Yr - 1 / 3 / 5 / 7

Bank Holiday Mondays x3 (the 2 in May matter, August less so much as it would likely be the week she picks to go on holiday)

Similar rotation as holidays

I wrote a more extensive list of other decision power items... it's quite a long list.

Thoughts?

[formflier]

  She is not keen on a child order. I would like to protect my bare minimum access

In a negotiation, do you start with your "bare minimum"?

Why is she not "keen" on a child order?

Best,

FF

[sweetheart]

In order for you to move forward with your wants for custody of your children, it’s important to focus on what YOU want as their father, and accept as you have that the divorce is proceeding regardless of whether you want it or not. I can hear that you have given it a lot of thought which is great, because that hasn’t always been clear in your posts.

Any focus on whether or not your wife may or may not really want a divorce is unhelpful to you and your plans for your future and your children’s future. It muddies what is already really muddy water around your wife’s reasons for what and why she
may be doing what she is doing. Ultimately you might never know her real reasons, and still end up divorced.

Keeping your focus on YOU and the best possible doable plans
for being the best parent you can be is for me a really healthy focus for you. And it seems to me from your last post that making those kind of very clear plans is something you do very well.

Your situation reminds me of another man who posted here, MaroonLiquid. He too did not want a divorce, so remained quite passive and focused on his wife and not himself. He suddenly found himself divorced, we were all really surprised. He wasn’t even sure at first it was real. It was!

I know this is not you, but whilst he was looking at his wife and her life, he forgot about himself, and the divorce snuck up behind him and happened anyway.

[sweetheart]

This would be my backstop with respect to access. She is not keen on a child order. I would like to protect my bare minimum access

Every other weekend starting Friday evening at 18:30 to 20:00 Sunday evening.

One night a week 18:00-20:00, dinner at mine

One overnight stay every other week midweek (to be confirmed with work) - Monday

2 consecutive weeks Summer holiday - fixed 2 weeks every year (first 2 weeks of the summer holidays probably)

Rotation of other half term weeks and Easter holidays... e.g. There are 3x 1 week half term holidays, 2 weeks at Christmas (less concerned about as there are significant events covered by general rotation) and 2 weeks at Easter. Exclude Christmas in the rotation.

Autumn HT - Yr - 1 / 3 / 5 / 7
Spring HT - Yr - 2 / 4 / 6 / 8
Easter 1 -  Yr - 1 / 3 / 5 / 7
Easter 2 - Yr - 2 / 4 / 6 / 8
Summer HT - Yr - 1 / 3 / 5 / 7

Christmas Rotation

Christmas Eve + Christmas Day (09:00 - 09:00 T+2) - Yr - 1 / 3 / 5 / 7
Boxing Day (09:00 - 09:00 T+1) - Yr - 2 / 4 / 6 / 8
New Years Eve (09:00 - 09:00 T+1) - Yr - 2 / 4 / 6 / 8
New Years Day (09:00 - 09:00 T+1) - - Yr - 1 / 3 / 5 / 7

Bank Holiday Mondays x3 (the 2 in May matter, August less so much as it would likely be the week she picks to go on holiday)

Similar rotation as holidays

I wrote a more extensive list of other decision power items... it's quite a long list.

Thoughts?

Have you shown this to your wife, so you have an idea of how she feels about it?

If not can you do that in its current form so you get some sense of whether there will be problems etc?

If you have what does she say is doable?

[Enabler]

We have discussed a similar shape.

She believes that she is reasonable and wants to facilitate my access to the kids, hence doesn't believe we need to have a formal framework... with more give and take.

I have seen what give and take looks like for the last 23 years and it generally involves me giving and her taking... hence me looking for a more rigid backstop. One of the other factors as well as potential parental alienation is just plain old procrastination. Her not being willing to commit to specific dates, and then at the last minute finding a road block as to why that doesn't work. For example over the last couple of years I have had to book holidays a month before I was going, not only because I didn't know whether I would be moving house but because she couldn't agree on the weeks 'I could go'. This summer I was told she was going for 3 separate weeks holiday all a week apart in a 6 week holiday, and then D11's birthday is in the middle of that... so I kinda lobbed it back at her and said "I'm having a 2 week holiday with the girls, tell me tomorrow which weeks that is". Can't remember whether that worked or not but she couldn't get her head round the fact that she couldn't do everything she wanted and had to choose between multiple options!

Sweetheart, I'm able to entertain more than one outcome at the same time. I plan for many eventualities and iterations. I wouldn't say I need to be focused on just one. It fits well with my decision tree model.

Enabler

[sweetheart]

My experience with BPD and that of many of the posts that I have read here, is there is more clarity for all of us when the focus is on one outcome at a time.

[babyducks]

I'm able to entertain more than one outcome at the same time. I plan for many eventualities and iterations. I wouldn't say I need to be focused on just one. It fits well with my decision tree model.

These outcomes, these more than one eventualities,  can I ask what you believe is the most probable event?   I am assuming you don't consider all possibilities equally likely.

In my relationship with my pwBPD,  we had a long circular argument flash over into violence, and I broke my hand requiring surgery, four screws and a titanium insert.      Even after that, I wanted too, and attempted to repair the relationship.     It turns out that the break down of the relationship,   the disintegration if that term resonates,  was beyond repair.    Trust was so severely damaged that repairing it was not possible.

Theoretically you could say we both could have gone to therapy.    that we both could have worked on recognizing our roles in the relationship dysfunction.   that we both could have committed to being better people.    Yes we did all that.    and we were both different people after all that.    and we were still two people who did not fit together well.

I understand you place a high value on your marriage, and your marriage vow and do not wish to divorce.    That you would rather resolve the relationship problems another way.    My experience is that some situations generate conditions that can not be resolved, regardless of effort, in ways that are tenable or sustainable.

Entertaining multiple outcomes doesn't  forgo actively working towards one.     

'ducks

[Enabler]

I think the  probabilities are:

50% - Divorced in 6m
30% - Can kicked down the road and divorce isn't taken off the table but not executed in 6m
20% - About turn in some way shape or form

I'm working where I have to on divorce
I'm working where I can on turning the relationship around
Leaving the rest to God

Some people grow apart, I get that. W is pushing away rather than naturally moving in opposing directions. As much as she is choosing to move away from me it's more than plausible she might choose to move towards me, I've seen it before and haven't discounted it happening again. We still have a lot of common ground if she chooses to acknowledge it.

Enabler

[babyducks]

As much as she is choosing to move away from me it's more than plausible she might choose to move towards me, I've seen it before and haven't discounted it happening again. We still have a lot of common ground if she chooses to acknowledge it.

Okay.  I understand better now.   Thanks for splitting it out that.

I am wondering what you think it might take to make the relationship with your wife tenable.    I'm not saying stable or supportive.  Just tenable.   And what is the likelihood of both of you putting in that effort?

[Enabler]

Simply put...

Her choosing to

Although, it's probably not as simple as that. Firstly, she needs to change her feeling that I have emotionally abused her for the last 23 years (entire relationship). That might breed a desire to not feel like she MUST get a divorce and has other options.

One of those options could be to choose to try and forget the last 4 years (she has done this before) and have a 'poof' moment and things quickly return to some element of normality where she decides to 'forgive me' and we all move on.

One option might be that she decides to be accountable (very low delta unless I were to push for it, although I don't see the desperation to save the marriage required to do this and I sense she might just 'trip into a divorce' because the path back looks too painful from a guilt perspective.

In both cases I would have choices as to how I handle that. Backing her into a corner could lead to her doing counterproductive things, however there needs to be certain barriers to her emotionally returning to the marriage to avoid the same cycle just endlessly repeating itself.

Enabler

[babyducks]

Interesting.

working with the assumption that there is a shame based disorder in play to whatever degree, and an unstable sense of self,  would those decisions / options / choices be something your wife is capable of?

From your description that is not the impression I have.

[Enabler]

No, I don't believe it is. One choice I have considered might be to allow a degree of 'normality' to occur and then address it when the relationship was in a better place.

In Oct16 just after the relationship truly blew up my W sent me an email trying to explain her relationship with OM, making herself accountable for certain things (but not at the same time... actually, making God accountable for most of it). I handled that VERY badly and just batted all the guilt and shame back in her court. I hadn't even heard of PD's at that point yet alone the implications of shame etc.

I think she would love for me to adopt all responsibility for everything.

Enabler

[babyducks]

Seems to me,  from what I understand,  the shame she experiences from the special relationship with OM is being mitigated by the 'divinely ordained' explanation of the relationship.

In other words,   lower on the shame meter.

Returning to become available to the marriage again,  would mean doing something with the shame associated with that change in direction.    Something that is higher on the shame meter.    In the work, home,  spiritual environment she has constructed,   there doesn't seem to be a route back to the marriage that is low on the shame scale.

You didn’t mention it,    as we have been posting about your wife but do you think you can resume a relationship with "some sense of normality",   while dealing with your feelings of resentment and stress?  That's a lot to cope with.

[Enabler]

Yes.

I don’t believe I have a huge amount of resentment because I’ve rationalised why she behaves in the way she does with BPD. I don’t see her as a bad person, I see her as a good person who does bad things because it makes sense to her.

I totally agree with the ‘path of least shame’ route. Divorce seems like the path of least shame for her at the moment.

Enabler

[babyducks]

I don’t believe I have a huge amount of resentment because I’ve rationalised why she behaves in the way she does with BPD. I don’t see her as a bad person, I see her as a good person who does bad things because it makes sense to her.

Right.    I thought about it later and realized I picked the wrong word there.   Resentment isn't what I should have said.

The point I am aiming for is that you have experienced a great deal of stress, and frustration in your primary supportive relationship.   You described it earlier as 'just happening to have a wife that hates you right now',... and mentioned something about there not being a lot of civility coming from you wife.     You've lived that way for quite some time.    I think it would have to take some toll.   It would have to have some impact.   

I've been in that situation.    I lived with a lot of tension.    a lot of stress.   a lack of physical and emotional support from my partner.   the way I described it to Wools earlier this month was being in that situation was like the slow drip drip drip of water on rock.   and the constant drip drip drip of it was very hard to take.   Like water on rock it wore away my self esteem, ego, peace of mind.    it was the very definition of toxic.    it was harmful.   while I was in the middle of it I certainly didn't see it.    and I certainly didn't believe I was being negatively impacted in any huge way.   I had normalized the situation.   I lived with a large amount of covert abuse, both verbal and emotional.    My Ex had a positive genius for covert verbal abuse.         A lot of what my Ex said sounded on the surface to be so benign,   so harmless.    it wasn't.   while I was in the middle of it I thought I was maintaining the status quo or maybe even making improvements.   and that I was fine.    I had seriously underestimated what it was costing me emotionally and physically to keep all those balls in the air.

eventually the house of cards collapsed in a mildly catastrophic way.   which, now that I look back at it, was really to be expected.   it was bound too.

upstream you said:

Simply put...

Her choosing to

I am going to encourage you to look at what it take you to rebuild. not just what she would have to do.  I know I did not have a good or full understanding of what type of effort it would take me to recover from the toxic exposure I had.    I couldn't "un" hear some of the things that had been said (on both sides).    I couldn't "un" remember some of the more difficult moments we experienced.     there was a tremendous amount of not openly displayed damage done.

I am going to suggest it really isn't as simple as her deciding to return.   and it's not only about the changes in thought patterns that she would need to make.    you would have to change some of your feelings and approaches also.

'ducks

[Enabler]

You’ve got me ‘Ducks...

Yes, bang on again yes yes yes yes yes

I don’t trust her, I don’t trust anything she says, not a single word. I’m hypervigilent because I’m so prone to the OG of her FOG. So now I’m on guard for being luffed into doing things, bending for her... then, some time afterwards I feel dirty because I know she didn’t really deserve me bending for her, it was all a lie.

I know that I have to be more open to her choices. I know that I see many choices that I don’t like as irrational, I know that I should hold my opinions on those things and allow them to play out. This period feels a lot like that, she’s made many choices I don’t agree with but have been forced in many respects to stand back and let them play out. Each one I considered to be a bit of a car crash, some have come good, some have gone badly and I’ve stayed out the way of rescuing. I certainly need a lot more humility and feel like I’ve already come a long way in being more humble... but it seems like a never ending road to complete humility.

I’m going to thing more and more about this.

Thank you

Enabler