Well, now I'm at the friend/fwb point. So confused.

[scgator]

I'm still wrestling with ambivalence. Even after everything I suspect happened in our rs, lying for sure, abuse for sure, gaslighting for sure, accusations for sure, probable cheating (I think absolutely, she - of course - and her family both say that's not like her so even more confusion), lots of projection, I'd been NC and then moved to LC. Why? I tell myself it's because I still miss her and still care. Yesterday we had a decent phone conversation, prompted from her need for some marijuana (both smokers) and in that conversation she was very lucid, apologetic and understanding - soo confusing! - I think it began based upon her need, and maybe that's all it was, however she said some things that seemed like she knows what's going on. (She's undiagnosed and in a bit of denial)

Anyway, it was hard to maintain my distance but I did. I didn't meet with her, just told her that this has nothing to do with her, is not me trying to hurt her, just that I'm not ready to be friends yet, to be with her and not be with her if that makes sense. It was very civil and seemed very NORMAL. She said this has never happened with anyone before (probably a lie but I've been told the same from her family as well, and they did confirm that she lies and warned me of some of her behavior) and that coupled with what her family has said has me torn. A part of me (libido, co-dependent, lonely, still pining for her? I don't know which) wants to pursue the friendship - I'm not really looking for fwb and am afraid of where that could lead with her but she's also very convincing and I'm not sure I could remain strong. But I miss the companionship and conversation, the sex too of course, but the company more. I know she's easily dysregulated and I know she lashes out, so does she. I can accept that that is who she is and right now I've maintained my boundary of not seeing her (it's been just over 6 weeks now) but it is getting hard to maintain it. Her pressure is subtle but just enough.

Maybe I'm still attached and don't want to let her go? Maybe I'm lying to myself when I say I can be indifferent or radically accept her as she is? Part of me wants to try as I've set up some firm boundaries and she's seen that she tends to get angry when my boundaries are enforced so I see (or am just blindly hopeful) that there's some improvement and self-awareness. She has admitted to needing therapy and is waiting for her insurance to kick in so for now, she's untreated.

I've read the friendship posts and generally see that this is a bad idea. I guess I'm wondering if anyone has had any success just being friends? Does radically accepting that she is dysfunctional and dealing with her as a dysfunctional friend rather than any sort of significant other help at all? 

I'm very confused at the moment. Thankfully I was firm in telling her I just can't see her right now but I feel like I'm beginning to cave. There's a part of me (or several parts) that thinks I could be detached enough for this to work, but even so, could she really be? She's admitted she is not relationship material - and I'm not looking to sign on to be the guy on the sideline, the fallback guy. Then I think, she sees all this, admits it, seems sorry, seems self-aware, open, communicative, so maybe, just maybe it could work... .Any feedback - or a swift virtual kick in the pants - is greatly appreciated.

[Learning_curve74]

Hi scgator, it sounds like you're a bit confused and struggling with figuring out how to deal with your ex. Sometimes she seems reasonable, somebody you can be friends with you're thinking, right? There are no rules about these things, plenty of people break up and are friends or not afterwards.

How long have you been broken up? Ask yourself also what do you want from a friend and what will you have to invest in the friendship. Every relationship lives and dies on a cost to benefit ratio. The more you invest and the more you get out of it, the more lasting and close it will likely be. The less you invest, the less you expect. Problems happen when you make a big investment and get little or negative returns.

Are you harboring a small hope that she'll seek therapy and you'll be a couple again? It's possible, yet acceptance is understanding what reality truly is in the moment, so what will you do if your expectations are not met and everything stays the same as it ever was?

I can be friends with my exgf because I have very few expectations. I don't count on her for anything, and I sure as hell am not going to have sex with her. I also will not put up with any unacceptable behaviors and can tell her and leave at any time, in fact, I gave her these timeouts when we were still a couple and living together. This is not to say I wasn't compassionate and sympathetic, I would tell her I understand why she was feeling angry, however I didn't feel safe and loved so I needed to leave the house.

Your friendship doesn't need to model mine, everybody is different. However, you need to figure out what is healthy for you and follow that. Maybe you need more space now to get over it, maybe you don't. Maybe you have it figured out what you want, maybe you don't. That's okay, it's part of the work and one of the reasons you're participating in the community here.  

[rotiroti]

Perhaps this is a question better suited for the staying or leaving board. Or even the staying board. If you can truly set firm boundaries, accept that you are not going to be emotionally fulfilled, and enter fully knowing that you are going back, I believe that it can be done. Any sort of r/s with a pwBPD is a lifestyle - as the non, you will have to adjust and take full responsibility to make things work.

Radical acceptance is tricky when dealing with a pwBPD, you truly have to believe that she is not going to be better (there are rare exceptions), but I see lots of hopes and rationalizing in your post.

Even after everything I suspect happened in our rs, lying for sure, abuse for sure, gaslighting for sure, accusations for sure, probable cheating (I think absolutely, she - of course - and her family both say that's not like her so even more confusion), lots of projection, I'd been NC and then moved to LC.

Do these things not bother you? Or are you indifferent to abuse?

You say you miss company above all, what about other friends and family? What about company without all the turmoil and ambivalence?

Not all pwBPD are the same, but I can tell you that mine had extremely lucid moments. One of the hardest things for me after the separation was the sincere apologies and the love-bombs. I never thought I would be over my BPDex, but once I was more detached I was able to see how any r/s with her was keeping me from moving on and being truly happy.

[Learning_curve74]

I never thought I would be over my BPDex, but once I was more detached I was able to see how any r/s with her was keeping me from moving on and being truly happy.

rotiroti brings up another important consideration: will the time and energy you spend on this friendship keep you from pursuing other healthy and happy relationships? In other words, will you be spending so much time and energy on your ex that you have no time and energy for yourself and for possibly finding a partner and lover that will truly add to your happiness?

[gameover]

I can be friends with my exgf because I have very few expectations. I don't count on her for anything, and I sure as hell am not going to have sex with her. I also will not put up with any unacceptable behaviors and can tell her and leave at any time, in fact, I gave her these timeouts when we were still a couple and living together. This is not to say I wasn't compassionate and sympathetic, I would tell her I understand why she was feeling angry, however I didn't feel safe and loved so I needed to leave the house.

So much gold in this post.  If you can't be around her without sleeping with her then there's absolutely no way you'll be able to be friends.  If you can't stand the thought of her being with another dude then there's absolutely no way you'll be able to be her friend. 

I'm still friends with mine--but I'm able to maintain a very low level of emotional investment.  And my ex is very respectful of my boundaries. 

But we're like alcoholics in a lot of ways.  After getting sober, SOME alcoholics can go and hang out in a bar without falling back into their addiction.  Would I recommend others try it?  No.

[scgator]

Hi scgator, it sounds like you're a bit confused and struggling with figuring out how to deal with your ex. Sometimes she seems reasonable, somebody you can be friends with you're thinking, right? There are no rules about these things, plenty of people break up and are friends or not afterwards.

How long have you been broken up? Ask yourself also what do you want from a friend and what will you have to invest in the friendship. Every relationship lives and dies on a cost to benefit ratio. The more you invest and the more you get out of it, the more lasting and close it will likely be. The less you invest, the less you expect. Problems happen when you make a big investment and get little or negative returns.

Are you harboring a small hope that she'll seek therapy and you'll be a couple again? It's possible, yet acceptance is understanding what reality truly is in the moment, so what will you do if your expectations are not met and everything stays the same as it ever was?

I can be friends with my exgf because I have very few expectations. I don't count on her for anything, and I sure as hell am not going to have sex with her. I also will not put up with any unacceptable behaviors and can tell her and leave at any time, in fact, I gave her these timeouts when we were still a couple and living together. This is not to say I wasn't compassionate and sympathetic, I would tell her I understand why she was feeling angry, however I didn't feel safe and loved so I needed to leave the house.

Your friendship doesn't need to model mine, everybody is different. However, you need to figure out what is healthy for you and follow that. Maybe you need more space now to get over it, maybe you don't. Maybe you have it figured out what you want, maybe you don't. That's okay, it's part of the work and one of the reasons you're participating in the community here. 

Thank you, all for the feedback. Yes, I'm confused and maybe it's because I'm dealing with the same draw everyone else seems to be. Yes, those things I do know about and those I don't do bother me. There's a part of me that is detached enough though to understand this is who she is. While I know she will not get better without therapy in the long run, I do see where she sees what she did. Am I too trusting with her? Probably so. Is my guard up? Yep. Do I think I can keep from sleeping with her? Doubtful. I could say yes but really, could I? Don't think so if she turned up the charm. At the same time, the self-awareness she's exhibiting has caught me off guard.

We had a 9 month intense rs, I moved in with her after 3 months and the wheels fell off within the next 2 months. I haven't seen her in about 6 weeks and other then yesterday have only texted her briefly over the last 3 or 4 weeks.

She's been somewhat respectful of my boundaries. During a brief text conversation in which she was dysregulated, I simply gave a final answer to an accusation, said I will not answer the question again as I've stated the truth enough, told her she was not being very nice and that I would no longer respond to further accusations or texts about how horrible of a person I am. After a couple of days of silence is when we had the phone conversation and as I said, she seemed lucid and self-aware. She was apologetic and even said she doesn't know why I'd even want to be around her after all she's said and done.

Before anything I picture a discussion in which we both outline what we're looking for in this friendship. I am not looking to get back into the lovey dovey ideation stage with her but to just accept who she is, manage my reactions from a place of self-awareness (I've done about 7 therapy sessions in the last 2 months and they've been a tremendous help getting in touch with my own childhood issues) and adhere to strict boundaries set up during this discussion I picture. I can imagine the friendship being more civil acquaintances who chat on the phone and occasionally hang out versus the rs we did have which was all us all the time.

For now, I'm not contacting her but intend on replying to any contact that is civil - which may or may not be a good idea. I still do care about this person after all. But at the same time, I'm getting on with my life. I started hanging out with some old friends weekly for drinks and some pool. I'm thinking of starting up a meetup group and am trying to find some new hobbies to keep me busy. Dating is not in my near future so a part of me wonders if my motives are not driven by loneliness or the chance of sex. I guess I have to nail all that down before I even attempt the friendship thing. I'm prepared to walk, go NC, whatever it takes if and when it goes south for good - I did already until this new round of civility - and that's IF I even take the chance.


Do I have hope that she can get better? Sure I do, I think life is all about change, both internal and external. But I also know that is a huge uphill battle that starts with her seeing the problem. I also know I cannot fix her or anyone but myself so there's no point in trying to change her. I can either accept her for who she is, disorder and all, and remain detached emotionally or accept that whether I want to be involved with someone like that or not may have nothing to do with whether or not it's healthy for either of us.

[apollotech]

scgator,

I believe that at some point you will find yourself healed enough to have contact with your ex. (I certainly hope that you reach that point!) But, as it always was in the romantic relationship, you won't be the primary problem. You trigger her; if you want to have something with her in the future, that's what you'll have to work around.

You have another thread out here that illustrates her position. In that thread you were told by her that she "wasn't relationship material." In BPD lingo, that can be translated into "I can't do intimacy." Then she backed it up with what she could offer (she bargained): sex, hanging out, friendship, etc. If these things entail emotional intimacy as well, then you'll still trigger her. That's what you'll be up against.

[scgator]

scgator,

I believe that at some point you will find yourself healed enough to have contact with your ex. (I certainly hope that you reach that point!) But, as it always was in the romantic relationship, you won't be the primary problem. You trigger her; if you want to have something with her in the future, that's what you'll have to work around.

You have another thread out here that illustrates her position. In that thread you were told by her that she "wasn't relationship material." In BPD lingo, that can be translated into "I can't do intimacy." Then she backed it up with what she could offer (she bargained): sex, hanging out, friendship, etc. If these things entail emotional intimacy as well, then you'll still trigger her. That's what you'll be up against.

Very good points Apollo and I agree. She stated her position - and of course it's a tempting one and maybe she knows that. If I were to continue down this road I would make sure to try and solidify her position and outline my own (what's acceptable behavior to me, when I'll take a time out or get away, if we even thought of fwb then what's a deal breaker, etc.) I feel close to the point of having contact with her but I know what I'm up against and I'm not looking to be the emotional caretaker. I definitely don't want to hurt her and don't want to be hurt more by her. I'm waffling though so airing it all out here rather than being tempted to talk with her.

Yes, I know I've become a trigger - I triggered her abandonment issues more than once already which is part of the reason why we're at this stage. I recognized this and even told her that I've become a trigger for her. For sure I'd have to have boundaries in place to deal with her when I've triggered her - either real or imaginary. I'm just wondering if being in the friend-zone would eliminate some of those triggers? ALL of them seemed to be linked with me leaving her or not really being in love with her. If we eliminate love from the equation could that reduce the severity of some of the triggers?

The one nice thing I noticed is 2 times we did converse more than a minute or two actually felt like talking WITH her. That's a reminder of how things were in the beginning so maybe this really is just all her need and an attempt at re-engagement. I posted on here before that I could see that "need" now. But it was definitely a nice change to talk with her vs her talking at me.

[apollotech]

scgator,

If at some point you do find yourself in a position where you do want contact with your ex, I suggest that you read on the Staying Board. People over there have decades of experience in dealing with BPD, very knowledgeable.

I am not sure that you'll ever get what you want, even friendship-wise. As far as I know, once we become a trigger there is no way to reverse the process. Taking love out of the equation may ease things, but I wouldn't count on that being a cure-all.

[scgator]

scgator,

If at some point you do find yourself in a position where you do want contact with your ex, I suggest that you read on the Staying Board. People over there have decades of experience in dealing with BPD, very knowledgeable.

I am not sure that you'll ever get what you want, even friendship-wise. As far as I know, once we become a trigger there is no way to reverse the process. Taking love out of the equation may ease things, but I wouldn't count on that being a cure-all.

I've read over the staying board quite a bit. I did in the beginning when I wasn't sure whether or not I wanted to try to make the loving rs work. I still like to look at it from time to time when that part of me that plays the "what ifs" gets going. To me it was a good deterrent to pursuing the rs. Same with venting/talking on here. It helps me see that while I may be able to accept her the way she is, change is not around the corner.

I think from my end, or at least what I tell myself is that I'm trying to disconnect with kindness. She knows how I feel, that I'm not over us or all the emotional BS our rs caused, and she knows I'm not in a position to see her because of those unresolved feelings. Bottom line is I'm now afraid of the volatile atmosphere, the unknown or waiting for the other shoe to drop. That fear is a HUGE deterrent. Just posting what's going on on here and getting feedback helps because it's real compared to sifting through a conversation with my ex to figure out what's real and what's not. Much appreciated!

[apollotech]

I think from my end, or at least what I tell myself is that I'm trying to disconnect with kindness. She knows how I feel, that I'm not over us or all the emotional BS our rs caused, and she knows I'm not in a position to see her because of those unresolved feelings. Bottom line is I'm now afraid of the volatile atmosphere, the unknown or waiting for the other shoe to drop. That fear is a HUGE deterrent.

scgator,

I really like your clarity and maturity here. No, you're not past the emotional turmoil, but you are far enough out to see what's going on with you ("you" being the key). You can control you; that gives you the authority to have a say in an outcome, good or bad.

The reality of these relationships is that we, the Non's, could not be the people that they wanted/expected. Likewise, they couldn't fulfill our wants or expectations. Acceptance plays a big part in seeing that. You sound like you're on that trek.

[antelope]

I can be friends with my exgf because I have very few expectations. I don't count on her for anything, and I sure as hell am not going to have sex with her. I also will not put up with any unacceptable behaviors and can tell her and leave at any time, in fact, I gave her these timeouts when we were still a couple and living together.

what you've described, however, is hardly a 'friendship'

it's more of what I always imagined any semblance of a friendship I could have with my ex would look like: an association from a parent-pseudo-therapist standpoint

obviously, if this 'works' for you, then continue 

but, it begs the question: what do you get out of it? 

control? 

a sense you have the upper hand? 

pity?   

... .or maybe, it just lets you keep tabs on a person you're not completely ready to let go of psychologically?

eventually, the disorder 'wins', and you trigger her... .this ugly reality guarantees that any type of healthy relationship with this person is not really possible

[scgator]

I think from my end, or at least what I tell myself is that I'm trying to disconnect with kindness. She knows how I feel, that I'm not over us or all the emotional BS our rs caused, and she knows I'm not in a position to see her because of those unresolved feelings. Bottom line is I'm now afraid of the volatile atmosphere, the unknown or waiting for the other shoe to drop. That fear is a HUGE deterrent.

scgator,

I really like your clarity and maturity here. No, you're not past the emotional turmoil, but you are far enough out to see what's going on with you ("you" being the key). You can control you; that gives you the authority to have a say in an outcome, good or bad.

The reality of these relationships is that we, the Non's, could not be the people that they wanted/expected. Likewise, they couldn't fulfill our wants or expectations. Acceptance plays a big part in seeing that. You sound like you're on that trek.

Thank you Apollo. I'm trying to enjoy the small victories here and maintaining LC and not seeing her is big for me. Each day I'm hoping it gets better.

Part of what helps is also evaluating my desire to see her from the standpoint of my motivation. What would I get out of it? Short-term I'd get to enjoy her company probably much like in the beginning of our relationship, and probably also enjoy some amazing sex. However, I also know whatever satisfaction I get from being around her would be short lived. Eventually she will get bored or I will trigger her and it can only end badly for one or both of us from there.

It's very sad to me to have to abandon someone who's greatest fear is abandonment. My ex was aware of that fear she has and even mentioned it in our discussion - that due to her past, me leaving her life completely is incredibly hurtful. Part of me thinks well, gee, guess you should have thought of that before. The other part knows that eventually it would end badly. Either in a recycle or me moving on, which will hurt her, or her playing the field and using me as the emotional punching bag/back burner guy, or just a repeat of the whole rs, and who needs that? Things are painful enough as it is. I let her know it had way more to do with me and my feelings than not wanting to see her. I'm staying strong but I'm sure I'll hear from her again eventually.

Getting on here and airing out is a huge benefit. I only have a couple of close friends and neither they nor my family really understand the draw this relationship has on me or how hard the struggle is to stay away. So thank you everyone!

[apollotech]

scgator,

I agree, it's a terribly sad and cruel illness. As you said, it bars them from having what they most desire. BPD is it's own punishment.

I went through your same thought processes at the end of my relationship. I think their normal. We want to maintain something rather than just completely walk away from someone that we were so deeply involved with. It's a tough call to have to make. I look at a friendship that spanned 40+ years; that was lost over an 8 month romance. Not a good trade. Like yours, mine bargained at the end, but I knew that we could never be together again; I had to go. In a way, not only was I hurt, I was insulted. She wanted me to be an orbiter, a lap dog, just like all of the others she kept on the line. To her I wasn't someone special. No, I was just a someone in a long line of someones. Our 40+ years of friendship bought us nothing, no currency. In 52 years, she is the only person that I have ever had to completely and purposefully cut out of my life. This was a woman that I expected to be friends with until one of us passed away. I did think of it as/felt that it was a relationship (friendship) that only death could part. I left in early Feb. of this year, she has had two soul mates since my departure (that I know of).

They are not wired for the grey areas, and we're not wired for living in the only black and only white areas. They live on the extreme edges of relationships, and we live in the middle of relationships. Unfortunately, as far as I know, you cannot go back to the grey area friendship with them. That was another realization that I had to make, that I was/am as toxic to her as she is to me. I trigger her which sends her into emotional chaos. This is another reason that I stay away from her. It's a mess: I am in a position to have contact with her, but she is not in a position to have contact with me, although she keeps requesting contact. So, in her view, I am the bad person with problems (I get the devaluing text too.).

Like you, I tried to talk to a few close friends about what I was involved in, but they didn't get it. Because of the extremes spoken of earlier, people that have not been involved with a pwBPD don't understand the extreme characteristics/nature of these relationships. Hell, I hate you... .don't leave me. That is crazy, hard to reconcile, especially when both emotions are expressed within minutes of one another. But, that's the world that we entered in order to be with them. One of my favorite quotes about BPD is: They love without end the one they will soon hate without reason. (I don't know the author, but that about sums it up.)

[scgator]

scgator,

I agree, it's a terribly sad and cruel illness. As you said, it bars them from having what they most desire. BPD is it's own punishment.

Yes, horribly sad for all involved from what I've experienced. And yep, I thought of all the crap she's done the other day and thought Karma is a b!tch - and then realized that unfortunately this is her full time existence and that's bad karma in and of itself.

I went through your same thought processes at the end of my relationship. I think their normal. We want to maintain something rather than just completely walk away from someone that we were so deeply involved with. It's a tough call to have to make. I look at a friendship that spanned 40+ years; that was lost over an 8 month romance. Not a good trade. Like yours, mine bargained at the end, but I knew that we could never be together again; I had to go.

So sorry to hear that. That has to be rough as I've only known my ex for less than a year. It was by far the most intense relationship I can remember (barring childhood crap)

In a way, not only was I hurt, I was insulted. She wanted me to be an orbiter, a lap dog, just like all of the others she kept on the line. To her I wasn't someone special. No, I was just a someone in a long line of someones.

There's a part of me - the one not blinded by hope, fantasy relationship and childhood blueprints - that feels the same way. That she's looking for the best of it all. She and her family have both said I was the best thing to ever happen to her. (Granted, she may have mirrored them) I think now (think being the key word because I really have no idea) that she feels if I go along with her that she can have me when it works for her and yet have the freedom to go out and entertain all the guys that hit on her. (Something she used to tell me happened all the time)

I miss the fantasy and the sex, the lovey dovey stuff that she mirrored (she told me later she hated all that crap, again, have no idea if that's the truth or not) - that part is super hurtful and is heartbreaking. I appreciate the fact that she tried to play house but it was unsustainable. Read that in another thread and it describes it perfectly. I THINK that she wanted things to work but they just couldn't. I saw a couple of months ago that being a trigger was bad for her, and me as well. That yes, I was just as toxic to her. Not that I was doing anything but loving her the best I could, it's just that the BPD wouldn't allow her to sustain it.

They love without end the one they will soon hate without reason - very true and part of what makes it so hard for me. Knowing that somewhere in there was "love without end" until it ended.

[apollotech]

They love without end the one they will soon hate without reason - very true and part of what makes it so hard for me. Knowing that somewhere in there was "love without end" until it ended.

scgator,

Yes, but don't forget that their "love without end" is just as dysfunctional as their "hate without reason." Idealization is just as much a manifestation of the illness as devaluation is. I think if you take a look at the love she presented you'll find it to be very immature, not based on a deep bond but rather on infatuation.

[scgator]

They love without end the one they will soon hate without reason - very true and part of what makes it so hard for me. Knowing that somewhere in there was "love without end" until it ended.

scgator,

Yes, but don't forget that their "love without end" is just as dysfunctional as their "hate without reason." Idealization is just as much a manifestation of the illness as devaluation is. I think if you take a look at the love she presented you'll find it to be very immature, not based on a deep bond but rather on infatuation.

Very true. And when I really think about it, much of what I miss about the rs, besides the sex, was all made up for her. She said she didn't like that part of things, the mushy sh!t as she called it - so while I was having a need filled in one way through her acting, she was having her needs filled via the attachment. All very unhealthy yet apparently very hard to give up.

[apollotech]

Very true. And when I really think about it, much of what I miss about the rs, besides the sex, was all made up for her. She said she didn't like that part of things, the mushy sh!t as she called it - so while I was having a need filled in one way through her acting, she was having her needs filled via the attachment. All very unhealthy yet apparently very hard to give up.

scgator,

It's said on these boards quite a bit that these relationships/pwBPD are addictive. It's said that we, the Non's, go through withdrawal, like an addict. I think that's true, but the chemistry that we become addicted to is our own brain chemistry. Idealization, love bombing, infatuation, etc. all change our brain chemistry. That change is normal at the beginning of any romantic involvement, but we're not meant to stay in that state; it's supposed to be temporary, just long enough to secure the attachment. Enter the pwBPD, they cannot move beyond this state, so the relationship/bond cannot mature beyond this infantile state. As a result, we're mired in an infantile relationship with this brain chemistry that's only supposed to be temporary. And like all addicts, to get the same high, we continuously need a progressively bigger hit. I think that's what we become addicted to, our own brain chemistry. I think that's why the end of a BPD relationship is so different than a normal relationship ending. A normal relationship matures beyond the chemical bonding state.

I think her telling you that she didn't care for the mushy sh!t is her way of saying that she had intimacy (= engulfment) issues. Mine had major engulfment issues when intimacy entered the picture. That is what destroyed us. She could readily provide sex, but no intimacy. Engulfment caused her rages directed at me; they were interesting to say the least... .. I thought, up until her, that it was an unchallengeable universal truth that women enjoyed cuddling after sex. Boy, was I ever wrong... .. She schooled me on my beliefs about that.

[rotiroti]

Idealization, love bombing, infatuation, etc. all change our brain chemistry. That change is normal at the beginning of any romantic involvement, but we're not meant to stay in that state; it's supposed to be temporary, just long enough to secure the attachment.

Bingo!

The attraction phase feels great and it is supposed to be a stepping stone to when all of the vulnerabilities come to surface. That's something a pwBPD can not handle with the fear of engulfment.

[scgator]

Very true. And when I really think about it, much of what I miss about the rs, besides the sex, was all made up for her. She said she didn't like that part of things, the mushy sh!t as she called it - so while I was having a need filled in one way through her acting, she was having her needs filled via the attachment. All very unhealthy yet apparently very hard to give up.

scgator,

It's said on these boards quite a bit that these relationships/pwBPD are addictive. It's said that we, the Non's, go through withdrawal, like an addict. I think that's true, but the chemistry that we become addicted to is our own brain chemistry. Idealization, love bombing, infatuation, etc. all change our brain chemistry. That change is normal at the beginning of any romantic involvement, but we're not meant to stay in that state; it's supposed to be temporary, just long enough to secure the attachment. Enter the pwBPD, they cannot move beyond this state, so the relationship/bond cannot mature beyond this infantile state. As a result, we're mired in an infantile relationship with this brain chemistry that's only supposed to be temporary. And like all addicts, to get the same high, we continuously need a progressively bigger hit. I think that's what we become addicted to, our own brain chemistry. I think that's why the end of a BPD relationship is so different than a normal relationship ending. A normal relationship matures beyond the chemical bonding state.

I think her telling you that she didn't care for the mushy sh!t is her way of saying that she had intimacy (= engulfment) issues. Mine had major engulfment issues when intimacy entered the picture. That is what destroyed us. She could readily provide sex, but no intimacy. Engulfment caused her rages directed at me; they were interesting to say the least... .. I thought, up until her, that it was an unchallengeable universal truth that women enjoyed cuddling after sex. Boy, was I ever wrong... .. She schooled me on my beliefs about that.

Lol - I know what you mean only I didn't find out until after I moved out. She used to say she loved that part too, the cuddling even just on the couch or in bed, then later she said she hated it. It probably was the engulfment fear but really, from my perspective, it just meant she faked it to fill her needs with really no care for how it would affect me. Man, the more I post on here the more angry I get over the whole thing. I'm waffling between anger and acceptance at this point. I mean, it's who she is. I know this now.

Apollo and Neveragain - I basically said the same thing to her. That after the initial phase, a relationship takes work. Not that I wasn't guilty of some love-bombing myself, I mean she appeared to be all I ever wanted in a woman and I did some idealization in the beginning too - I tried to sweep her off her feet but I didn't do the devaluation part. I think she wanted that though - for me to fight back just as hard as she was. But my opinion is that after the infatuation part, issues have to be worked on together. There were times we tried but for the most part she didn't believe that, said true love shouldn't be painful. Lol - meanwhile there were times she made it painful for me and I took it.

It seemed like she wanted the fairy tale love to last forever and when it couldn't - when things took effort - things started to fall apart. She will say she fought tooth and nail for the relationship, and she probably did, just internally. I definitely give her credit for trying and that's also hard to walk away from. Yet I don't get any credit unless I give it to myself and really, at the end of the day, regardless of whether or not I miss her, I just don't trust her any more. Not with pretty much anything, especially my heart.