How to reconnect

[CravingPeace]

Hi All,

So over the years with my wife the intimacy has been totally lost. I am not talking about sex, although she shut that down a decade ago, but closeness and feeling of together ness. As I have become more aware of the gas lighting, the blame shifting the victim complex it has made it worse. To the point I feel totally turned off to all things emotional and certainly not interested in the idea of sex with her.

How do I turn this around? I have 3 kids but I am starting to wonder if it is time to split up. I wish it wasn't but I don't know how to reconnect. The little remarks, the victim stuff, the emotional overwhelm then her shutting down and stonewalling me it has just become so much. I have managed to stop explaining and defending, but each time I do I am aware a little more of me that is lost. Dont get me wrong she isn't violent and she mostly processes internally, while passive with me the angry outbursts are extremely rare. It is just like death by a thousand cuts. I know I should keep being empathetic and do everything to validate her but honestly the energy is running out, and my will to constantly chase after her to make her feel better is gone.

Recent example I saw she had something on the oven in the pressure cooker, I asked cool when will this be ready I am starved. She said it had completely gone wrong maybe I should do dinner for a change.

That dinged as I realised I had done dinner for the past 2 nights. I flagged sure I can, I also did the last two nights. She changed it to yeah but before that you didn't. It's like a gas light to back the usual dialog that I don't to enough and make me feel bad. When I do so much. But thats just an example pretty much every interaction is like this. So I am not asking for particular advice on that. Sure she was upset that the meal she was cooking went wrong, sure I could empathize with that and pander after her and reassure her. But I just have zero in the tank. Why should I keep taking these knocks and hits for no reason. I didn't do anything wrong.

Anyway I guess I am looking for hope, or something I guess. Just not feeling happy and exhausted with it all. Nothing is ever enough. I am sole working parent, I am up till midnight, then again at 6am with the baby, get the kids to school, walk the dog, work , come back from work take the kids for an hour so she can go out. Do kids bath, walk dog etc etc. It just goes on. Meanwhile she complains that her day is so hard with the baby. At the weekend I sometimes take the baby all day and the two older kids and then I do the nights with the baby so she can rest.

I feel like I put 90% in and she does 10%. I had a really hard day at work yesterday which I told her, but I still made time for her to go out for a walk when I got back from work. I fell asleep with the baby in the evnening on the sofa so didn't get him up to bed until 1215am. This morning she complained and said he didn't sleep well I need to start feeding and changing him at 11am so he is more settled by 12am. I said yeah sorry I was just so tired last night feel asleep, to be fair it was a one off. She said "no it isn't a one off not that I am starting an argument". I just left it.... But serious. Just done with it all.

She wants me to be all fun, and take her on dates, and go on fun trips , but I just dont want to spend that time with her, as I end up being constantly got at and made to feel bad. So I detach. That too makes me feel bad ! I don't think she even knows she does it at this point. Just not sure where I go from here. Thinking of consulting with a divorce attorney to see my options, but it's with such sadness.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Pook075]

Hello and thanks for sharing.  I'm not going to dive too deep since this hits a little too close to home and I don't want to interject my own dysfunctional feelings here from my relationship.  I did want to start, however, by a very important point you brought up, which is intimacy.

When we hear that word we think of sex, but that's a result of intimacy...not the definition.  Intimacy is a closeness that's built through coming together and choosing to love one another, and it's something that's almost impossible to achieve without great communication.  I know life gets in the way quite a bit, especially with young kids, but you have to get that closeness back through words and actions.  The sticky threads along the top of the page are great tools for how to build better communication and they're worth their weight in gold.

One thing that jumped out at me was the dinner conversation.  Sure, you made it the past two nights.  But she took a jab anyway, which you returned with a jab of your own.  Who's right in that situation?  Well, nobody.  You're exhausted and can't see why she'd be exhausted after having a "much easier day" with the baby.  It's not a competition, you're both worn out, and on top of it she felt like a failure ruining dinner. 

The answer there is intimacy, give her a hug and reassure her that a failed dinner isn't the end of the world.  That action brings you closer and makes life more relatable.  In return, she throws less jabs because she feels more secure.

The hope in your marriage comes from breaking this cycle.  I know you don't want a vacation right now but it may actually be the best possible decision you make between now and the end of the year.  Take some time to reconnect and let go of the frustrations between you.  I hope that helps!

[SaltyDawg]

How do I turn this around? I have 3 kids but I am starting to wonder if it is time to split up. I wish it wasn't but I don't know how to reconnect.

CravingPeace,

   4-17 years ago, that was my life, except it was 2 kids, not 3.

   Since you are on the bettering board, I cannot give you advice on 'splitting up' - you may want to ask a moderator to move this to the conflicted board for answering that particular question. 

   I too didn't know how to reconnect, still don't, but there has been some positive movement in this direction recently, for me.  I will share the amount of effort for the limited amount of gains in this area.

   This is a short version of my story...

   4 years ago, I retired, my DD was admitted for mental health under her care.  My wife dragged me to couple's therapy to get fixed as she saw I was the problem.  I knew nothing of BPD at that time.

   I let my wife spew her false narrative to the couple's therapist with no pushback from myself.  It went nowhere.  After a homework assignment from this couple's T, where I shared with my wife that I was going to start self-care, she attempted suicide as I would be taking some of that 90% of my time away from her and start to work on myself.  The couple's therapist gave me an ultimatum of doing individual therapy shortly thereafter.  At the very first session of this individual therapy, the therapist asked me if my wife had been evaluated for bipolar or BPD after I described my relationship with my wife.  I had heard of bipolar, but not BPD.  So, having some medical training (shipboard/survival), I looked it up and she ticked all the boxes of BPD.  At the 2nd session, the T gave me a book on BPD, I read it, and my eyes were opened.  By the 3rd session I started to do a deep dive on it as it has become an obsession to figure it out, and how to correct it.

   I took a couple months to look at myself, as my wife had accused me, and had me thinking I was the problem all along, especially as the couple's T, validated my wife.

   Two months later, I had an epiphany to push back on my wife's narrative, and highlight my wife's symptoms by describing one of her more problematic behaviors.  Two months later, my wife got so flustered that she exhibited more symptoms of the borderline to the couple's T, in session, who eventually fired us (I suspect the couple's T realized she f-'d up in her assessment of me after my wife smacked the crap out of a wall just before a session was about to start, and gave me several tools to continue couple's therapy with another therapist which included communicating with my wife's individual therapist on my concerns).  Also, this therapist changed her assessment to "maybe, just maybe" after I mentioned my wife had 6 suicide attempts, which she had previously lied to the couple's T by saying she had none.  I did push back on this one, but the couple's T ignored me at the beginning, so I just sat there silently allowing my wife to sew her false/distorted feelings based narrative.

   This is the start of where things started to turn around, a year ago September - November.  First my wife was in denial, and things got worse (3 months), then they levelled off (3 months), and now they are getting better, since March of this year.  Some intimacy has returned, but not fully.  It is a work in progress.

   That is where it is now.  I have spent over 2000 hours reading, watching videos, doing therapy, going to CoDA and NAMI meetings, conversing with a licensed professional who was a dBPD herself (I was accused of cheating with her back in February), posting here, posting on facebook groups too.

   A lot of effort for very little return.  And when it's there, it definitely feels like the 'spark is gone' between us.

   Let me know if you want me to expand on a certain phase, and I will (may take me a few days to respond).

   All this is very stressful, be sure to start to carve out some time for self-care.  Even though when I did, my wife attempted suicide (taking heart pills, but spat them out) - I started it two weeks later without telling my wife, and absolutely nothing happened.

   You need to fill your cup, so you can take care of yourself, your children, and your wife too.

   Take care, with self-care.

[CravingPeace]

   All this is very stressful, be sure to start to carve out some time for self-care.  Even though when I did, my wife attempted suicide (taking heart pills, but spat them out) - I started it two weeks later without telling my wife, and absolutely nothing happened.

   You need to fill your cup, so you can take care of yourself, your children, and your wife too.

   Take care, with self-care.

Thanks so much would love to hear a bit more.  I have always tried to do my best with self care, it is something I have always stuck to my guns on and there has often been issues about it. Exercise has always been important to me. Level sets my brain and destresses. However some sports that take too long I had to stop due to being accused of being selfish or not putting her first. It seems I have to find time for me but also first book time for her to do things. She won't ask or say what she needs. I have to kind of guess. The sweet spot is 1 -1.5 hours a few times a week for me. Any more it starts to cause issues. I always say just tell me what you need and I will make it happen. But if I forget one time to book her time in I am selfish, or I don't priotise her, or I don't think about her. It's very hard. I have to be hyper vigilent to make her do things for herself. Often I say why don't you take some time and go for a walk etc to be nice and show her I am thinking of her. And she gets annoyed that I am telling her what to do! But if I don't do it I am not thinking about her. Complete no win/ double bind. Sometimes I wonder whether she has BPD or not, maybe I am being mean. Then I read what I have written and think yup she has it!

[SaltyDawg]

Thanks so much would love to hear a bit more.  I have always tried to do my best with self care, it is something I have always stuck to my guns on and there has often been issues about it. Exercise has always been important to me. Level sets my brain and destresses. However some sports that take too long I had to stop due to being accused of being selfish or not putting her first. It seems I have to find time for me but also first book time for her to do things. She won't ask or say what she needs. I have to kind of guess. The sweet spot is 1 -1.5 hours a few times a week for me. Any more it starts to cause issues. I always say just tell me what you need and I will make it happen. But if I forget one time to book her time in I am selfish, or I don't priotise her, or I don't think about her. It's very hard. I have to be hyper vigilent to make her do things for herself. Often I say why don't you take some time and go for a walk etc to be nice and show her I am thinking of her. And she gets annoyed that I am telling her what to do! But if I don't do it I am not thinking about her. Complete no win/ double bind. Sometimes I wonder whether she has BPD or not, maybe I am being mean. Then I read what I have written and think yup she has it!

Self-care.  There are cottage industries on it.  Just Google it.  I will speak of what was, and what it is now, and how I got there after the initial drama I described to you with her most recent suicide attempt.

I was neglectful to the point of not exercising, and I had a recent knee surgery from a few months earlier and the results were deteriorating as I was sacrificing the necessary exercise after physical therapy, and my knee was getting worse.  My wife wanted me to spend every waking hour doing her bidding, basically I was her 'slave' to do her bidding and snapped at me whenever I did anything for myself - I was at a low point with the proverbial backbone that I had lost.  If she told me to jump, I would ask 'how high', and then try to do that in order to appease her.

My wife is also uOCPD, being miserly with money which is an OCPD symptom (trait), except when triggered or trying to impulsively please a favorite person - a very BPD symptom (trait).   I could not arrange nice distractions the way you do as that costs money.  Although a few months earlier, she 'loaned' 11k to a girlfriend, in effect buying her a car, while I asked for an  1k (1/10th the cost) e-bike for the recovery of my knee, and it was a bitter fight for months which I eventually was able to obtain.  Instead, her thing was to be a workaholic even when she didn't need to be at the expense of spending quality time with me and/or the children.  At that time she just wanted me to do her 'honey do' list of menial household chores and improvements, and would get irrationally upset if I didn't.  I just wanted to highlight a significant difference between you and me.  She was also allowed to go out with friends, but I couldn't, I had to stay home and watch the children.  A very one-sided affair.

I personally feel the behavior you describe, and what I have described can circumstantially be ascribed to the BPD symptom of "persistent feelings of emptiness", where we try and try and try to fulfill their needs, and they are never ever satisfied.  My daughter made the very same observation to my wife last night, that she cannot be satisfied - and desribed the ever changing expectations - she would move the 'goal posts'.  I personally have labelled her as 'unsatisfiable' in therapy on several occasions.

From what you have described, all the distractions that you plan and pay for, so you can do your own self-care is a bit over-the-top -- I don't know of any multi-millionaires that do this for their spouse, and I have associated with a few (most give their trophy spouses the credit card and let them do what they want - they self-soothe with spa treatments, shopping sprees and the like).  An occasional splurge of treating your wife should be perceived as a special treat, is something to be appreciated for.  Ask yourself, are you being appreciated?  I am guessing not.  However, to do it, and then be admonished when you make a little mistake, she sounds like she is taking you for granted, and is being a bit entitled to this type of treatment.  I can only imagine that you may feel a bit of resentment and contempt for doing this.

If you make any significant changes now, there will be to pay.  How to extricate yourself from the appeasement trap that you have built will be precarious at best.  You probably want to brainstorm a way to make things better.

I will pause, and share what I have done... and am doing...

Both my wife and I have individual therapists, we also have a couple's therapist - three therapists in the mix.  My wife knows she is messed up and is willing to do something about it.

I actually counted the number of hours that I did her bidding (her top 2 love languages which included service), as recently as last year and it averaged 75 hours in a given week (it was even more when she tried the suicide attempt).  In return, I was getting less than half an hour of my top two love languages.  Nowhere near the 50/50 a relationship ideal should be, heck it wasn't even the 90/10.  It was anywhere from 90/1 to 165/1 in a given week.  Today, it is 60/40 to 80/20 and I know she is not satisfied - if it is 50/50, or if I need to take a break (she recently started to accept this), I hear about it.  It is 'score keeping' which should not be done, according to the couples therapist, but it is.

I took 16 of those 75 hours, and reallocated them to my own self-care, which included 1-2 hours of exercise 2-3 per week which like you I found to be a nice sweet spot.  I also took time 1-2 x per week, and traveled to NAMI & CoDA meetings (both are confidential / anonymous peer support groups, CoDA is a 12-step program for your addition to your spouse in my case) - my wife didn't do research on this, if she did she would likely to try to ban me from those too in addition to me posting here (which I didn't do for half a year).  I also take long hot showers (I told my wife I would give her $5 for the extra electricity I used each month), get lost in a movie/tv series.  I even did research on myself and her (which my therapist frowned initially for self-care, but I enjoy it, so I am seriously pursuing a second career in it).

I highlighted the disparity of the lack of reciprocity with the couple's therapist on many occasions and it is a work in progress, she really didn't want to address it, as she believed my wife's false narrative and tried to weave that into what was going on.  So, I took it into my own hands, and I have slowly, but steadily weened her off my excessive amount of servitude.  This is just one facet of a multitude of facets that I have been simultaneously working on to make things better between us, and our children too.

Another aspect of self-care I wanted to do was to reconnect with my wife intimately as she had painted me black, and from my perspective was punishing me.

I searched for a program to rebuild intimacy in our marriage, something the cut off the moment she found out she was pregnant with our first child.  Our 2nd child came along from her new year's resolution, that lasted 2 hours on New Year's Day.  Knowing what I new about BPD, they need to be told what to do, and OCPD, who follow rules rigidly, I was recommended the "Marriage Builders" program by a therapist who indicated she is DBT when I asked as she was a peer mentor.

According to the Marriage Builders program, the number of hours in a healthy marriage of love languages should be a minimum of 15 hours (7-8 hours per person), and in an unhealthy one like ours, this should be double, or about 30 hours (15 hours per person) in addition to another 15 hours of family time with the children.  My wife now manages to do about 5 hours per week, 10x what it was previously, but we still have a ways to go - she never had an issue with doing things for the kids as she wrapped that into her workaholism.

I make sure I put in at least as much effort as she does and a little bit more, I am targeting a 60/40, purely based on time, a quantifiable measurement, as 'effort' is not.  So, I have slowly reclaimed the remaining 75 hours for myself.  I am using that freed up time to school myself for a 2nd career at the moment, and posting here as well when I am not doing stuff with my kids and my wife (together or separately).

The amount of work I was doing for her, was previously abusive on her part - it no longer is.  I have set one firm boundary that includes this "all abuse must stop".  If any abuse happens, I will call it out, and it will be handled in couple's therapy.  I've been cutting back by an hour per week (on average) some weeks more, others I do more than what I should, usually out of FOG - family obligation, or she will lay on the 'guilt trip'.

Of course this is the oversimplified version of how I reclaimed time from my wife for self-care.  There were other facets to my relationship I was working on at the same time, so these could have some influence on this facet as well.

Hopefully, you could follow along, let me know if you have any other questions.

Now, I am interested in learning more about you, and what kind of brainstorming you are going to do in order to take back your life?  Thoughts?

Take care with self-care

(I sign off most of my messages with this, as self-care was literally a life-saver for me and all therapy supports the use of self-care).

[CravingPeace]

Thank you so very much. Just to say I read and relates to soo very much but cant reply as at home and wife is here. I will reply from the space that is work on Monday.

[Truth_Seeker]

Dear Craving Peace,

I can deeply relate to your life story. It seems that wives with BPD often exhibit similar symptoms. In my case, my wife isn't aware of her condition. I believe that therapies can only be effective if there's an inner willingness, and the person with BPD acknowledges their disorder or recognizes something isn't right in their emotions or thought processes.

So far, what's been effective for me is educating myself and working on self-improvement. I don't mean to boast, but I consider myself a decent and composed person. However, the constant nitpicking, put-downs, false accusations, and lack of reciprocity have taken a toll on me. I rarely receive apologies for the intentional or unintentional hurt she causes. There's also a lack of genuine gratitude, as she feels entitled to what I do, and I'm constantly pressured to do more to make her feel special.

My youngest child is 11 years old, so I'm past the phase of baby care. I'm the sole breadwinner, and I'm fully dedicated to my responsibilities. I also assist with household chores, like laundry, cooking, and taking care of the kids. I usually handle grocery shopping as well because when my wife does it, she overspends and reacts negatively when questioned.

My wife's primary role is to manage the household as a stay-at-home mom. However, she often displays chronic irritation due to boredom and emptiness, manifesting as sullenness and silent treatment. I try to give her as much time as I can, but it never seems to be enough for her.

What's working for me is employing the JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) approach, being less analytical, avoiding deep conversations, and using simple language to communicate. This has significantly reduced tantrums and triggers, bringing more peace to our home. Additionally, it helps to be accommodating, saying yes to her wishes and desires.

Finally, I've found it beneficial to give her some alone time away from me and the children. Once a year, I send her to her parents' home out of state so she can unwind and clear her mind while I take care of everything at home. Her return brings a slight sense of refreshment, reducing BPD episodes. I understand that this is a lifelong condition, and I need to manage it and take better care of her without expecting her to change. The idealized marriage I envision may never be fully realized, but I'm striving to make the best of the circumstances I've been given. I hope this insight helps you and others facing similar challenges.

[CravingPeace]

Thanks so much for your thoughtful post

My wife is also uOCPD, being miserly with money which is an OCPD symptom (trait), except when triggered or trying to impulsively please a favorite person - a very BPD symptom (trait).   I could not arrange nice distractions the way you do as that costs money.  Although a few months earlier, she 'loaned' 11k to a girlfriend, in effect buying her a car, while I asked for an  1k (1/10th the cost) e-bike for the recovery of my knee, and it was a bitter fight for months which I eventually was able to obtain. 

That must have been very hard for you indeed. Definately not an unreasonable request.  I guess my wife would say our roles are reversed in terms of she says I control her spending. She hasn't worked for 7 years. When she did work she constantly fell out with people and moved jobs every 6 months on average, often dragging me in. I earn I guess a pretty good salary, but it all goes. She will say she is just spending it on the kids and house. She likes to say I spend money on myself and she never gets anything. But I try to be fair. This year I spent quite a bit sending her the other side of the world to see a family member. You would have thought she would be grateful. She did not even say thankyou. Blamed me for not sorting her travel visa out, a panicked call from the airport where I had to sort it. Then she left me take the blame when I apologized. This definately made me feel resentful. Questioning why I apologized. This is actually on top of a few other things like being pressured into having a 3rd child or I was selfish etc that made me start questioning everything.

She was also allowed to go out with friends, but I couldn't, I had to stay home and watch the children.  A very one-sided affair.

Yes this is grossly unfair. That said she is ok to go for brunch with friends and spend well over the odds. If I go out I need to give an exact time I will be back and heaven forbid I am 15 minutes late.

On friday a friend dropped in at work. we had a beer. I aim to be home for 515pm. I text her at 5 to say sorry running a bit late will be home at 530pm then you can go out . (She has blocked 1 hour in my calendar every day for when i get home). She put it in for 5pm even though I leave work then generally. Anyway on this particular day having got home at 530pm , my oldest son said "Daddy why are you so late". He is 6 and is barely aware of what time of day it is, so this came from her bad mouthing me. She then proceeded to tell me she had now missed out on seeing a friend it was urgent . I said you are only 15 late you can still go. She argued this and said it was too late. I asked what was urgent, she said none of my business. Around a 30 minute argument next day, where I ended up apologizing being late and that she had missed her urgent thing whatever it was. I offered for her to go out any time at the weekend to do this urgent thing. She said it was too late her friend was busy now. So she went out shopping for a few hours, obviously not giving me a time of return, and spending as she saw fit. I want to put a limit on her credit card as every month there is over spend. But I know she will tell me I am abusing her financially. But really 2500 a month on walmart groceries a month seems excessive, plus thousands at amazon on god knows what. It's hard to track as just says amazon. But maybe things have got me expensive than I realise. Not sure on that.

But my point is although I have to force me going out to see friends once a week, it usually does not go down well. Sulking etc. But I just force it as I have given up many things due to pressure from her, such as female friends. Although of course she texts male friends. But seeing my friends is one thing i NEED. My family are in a different country so the few friends I have here are important to me.

From what you have described, all the distractions that you plan and pay for, so you can do your own self-care is a bit over-the-top -- I don't know of any multi-millionaires that do this for their spouse, and I have associated with a few (most give their trophy spouses the credit card and let them do what they want - they self-soothe with spa treatments, shopping sprees and the like).  An occasional splurge of treating your wife should be perceived as a special treat, is something to be appreciated for.  Ask yourself, are you being appreciated?  I am guessing not.  However, to do it, and then be admonished when you make a little mistake, she sounds like she is taking you for granted, and is being a bit entitled to this type of treatment.  I can only imagine that you may feel a bit of resentment and contempt for doing this.

I am totally taken for granted. But she says I do that about her. The massage I booked for her was an example. She upgraded it while there too all the options, didnt ask, didnt say thankyou. Just blamed the masseur for being a hard sales women so she couldnt say no. Honestly talk about not taking responsability. Just own it. Say there was some great options, I hope you dont mind I took them, but I am so grateful thank you . But no nothing. She just took as that is what she feels entitled to.

She sent me a clip of an instagram influencer who gets up with his one child at 6am to give his wife a break. She sent that to me to give me "tips". The women were all gushing in the comments about how great this fake influencer was. Whereas I get up at 6am mon-fri take the baby, get my other kids lunch ready, dress them, get them to school etc. How is what I do not more than this so called hero instagram influencer! It baffles me she doesn't see that, yet every interaction with her is her telling me I need to change what I am doing, or do more for her.

If you make any significant changes now, there will be to pay.  How to extricate yourself from the appeasement trap that you have built will be precarious at best.  You probably want to brainstorm a way to make things better.

I have recently started detaching, and not engaging so much. It is causing serious attacks from her , she says she wants to "resolve things", and that I keep walking away. I walk away after about 30 minutes of circular ear bashing from her. Resolve to her means, grind me into the ground and get me to apologize for whatever she decides I have done wrong. On sunday it was because I left her 1/2 a pancake, I had made them for the kids and she never wants one. I offered her one, then I tried a bit as hadn't had any. She threw it in the sink, and said she was so disrespected she can't believe I could do that. Do I love her that little etc etc etc. I wouldn't do that if I invited my firends over for breakfast. It was crazy. It was left overs. She never wants pancakes, I left her a bit to try. She had had breakfast.... She would accept nothing I said, even when I was walking the dogs and taking the kids to the park she kept texting me having a go. I kept saying I wouldn't respond as I wanted to enjoy time with the kids. She ignored this and continued, several times.

I will pause, and share what I have done... and am doing...

Both my wife and I have individual therapists, we also have a couple's therapist - three therapists in the mix.  My wife knows she is messed up and is willing to do something about it.

I actually counted the number of hours that I did her bidding (her top 2 love languages which included service), as recently as last year and it averaged 75 hours in a given week (it was even more when she tried the suicide attempt).  In return, I was getting less than half an hour of my top two love languages.  Nowhere near the 50/50 a relationship ideal should be, heck it wasn't even the 90/10.  It was anywhere from 90/1 to 165/1 in a given week.  Today, it is 60/40 to 80/20 and I know she is not satisfied - if it is 50/50, or if I need to take a break (she recently started to accept this), I hear about it.  It is 'score keeping' which should not be done, according to the couples therapist, but it is.

I took 16 of those 75 hours, and reallocated them to my own self-care, which included 1-2 hours of exercise 2-3 per week which like you I found to be a nice sweet spot.  I also took time 1-2 x per week, and traveled to NAMI & CoDA meetings (both are confidential / anonymous peer support groups, CoDA is a 12-step program for your addition to your spouse in my case) - my wife didn't do research on this, if she did she would likely to try to ban me from those too in addition to me posting here (which I didn't do for half a year).  I also take long hot showers (I told my wife I would give her $5 for the extra electricity I used each month), get lost in a movie/tv series.  I even did research on myself and her (which my therapist frowned initially for self-care, but I enjoy it, so I am seriously pursuing a second career in it).

I highlighted the disparity of the lack of reciprocity with the couple's therapist on many occasions and it is a work in progress, she really didn't want to address it, as she believed my wife's false narrative and tried to weave that into what was going on.  So, I took it into my own hands, and I have slowly, but steadily weened her off my excessive amount of servitude.  This is just one facet of a multitude of facets that I have been simultaneously working on to make things better between us, and our children too.

Another aspect of self-care I wanted to do was to reconnect with my wife intimately as she had painted me black, and from my perspective was punishing me.

I searched for a program to rebuild intimacy in our marriage, something the cut off the moment she found out she was pregnant with our first child.  Our 2nd child came along from her new year's resolution, that lasted 2 hours on New Year's Day.  Knowing what I new about BPD, they need to be told what to do, and OCPD, who follow rules rigidly, I was recommended the "Marriage Builders" program by a therapist who indicated she is DBT when I asked as she was a peer mentor.

According to the Marriage Builders program, the number of hours in a healthy marriage of love languages should be a minimum of 15 hours (7-8 hours per person), and in an unhealthy one like ours, this should be double, or about 30 hours (15 hours per person) in addition to another 15 hours of family time with the children.  My wife now manages to do about 5 hours per week, 10x what it was previously, but we still have a ways to go - she never had an issue with doing things for the kids as she wrapped that into her workaholism.

I make sure I put in at least as much effort as she does and a little bit more, I am targeting a 60/40, purely based on time, a quantifiable measurement, as 'effort' is not.  So, I have slowly reclaimed the remaining 75 hours for myself.  I am using that freed up time to school myself for a 2nd career at the moment, and posting here as well when I am not doing stuff with my kids and my wife (together or separately).

The amount of work I was doing for her, was previously abusive on her part - it no longer is.  I have set one firm boundary that includes this "all abuse must stop".  If any abuse happens, I will call it out, and it will be handled in couple's therapy.  I've been cutting back by an hour per week (on average) some weeks more, others I do more than what I should, usually out of FOG - family obligation, or she will lay on the 'guilt trip'.

Of course this is the oversimplified version of how I reclaimed time from my wife for self-care.  There were other facets to my relationship I was working on at the same time, so these could have some influence on this facet as well.

Hopefully, you could follow along, let me know if you have any other questions.

I really like the work you are putting in, particularly around the hours. My issue is I am kind of done , so exhausted with the constant ear bashing. Frankly I feel I deserve more, and respectfully the amount of effort you are putting in to get a little return feels like too much for me. If I cut down time I will get even more "conversations to resolve things" which are basically ear bashing about how bad and uncaring I am.

She is in therapy but as far as I can ascertain her therapist thinks she is codependent as she has not shared everything. My wife said I was "discarding her" by being 15 minutes late. She also accuses me of gaslighting, so I am pretty sure she and her therapist have decided I am a narcissist from the delusions my wife will have passed on. The irony is I helped her find that therapist as she said it was too hard finding one and she needed help. So I found one with the skills I thought that would really help her, and I obviously pay for this. The therapist at first said she needed to see her twice a week. She says she is broken but not evil. So now the regular ear bashing and criticism I get is justified as she is "standing up for her self". I am all for constructive criticism as self improvement. It's just when every interaction I have with my wife is her critizising me and being hurtful it gets too much. I said I needed to leave a "resolving" conversation the other day as it was going around in circles and we are not getting anywhere she said "good I am sick of hearing your voice", even though it was her trying to force me to have this "resolving issue" conversations, and I had told her I was tired and i did not want to argue. If I try JADE she tries even harder to argue. Or tells me to stop using my therapy on her.

Exhausted but also feeling very sad, ad I have decided to at least speaking with attorneys. So I guess maybe I should be moving boards.

[CravingPeace]

Dear Craving Peace,

I can deeply relate to your life story. It seems that wives with BPD often exhibit similar symptoms. In my case, my wife isn't aware of her condition. I believe that therapies can only be effective if there's an inner willingness, and the person with BPD acknowledges their disorder or recognizes something isn't right in their emotions or thought processes.

So far, what's been effective for me is educating myself and working on self-improvement. I don't mean to boast, but I consider myself a decent and composed person. However, the constant nitpicking, put-downs, false accusations, and lack of reciprocity have taken a toll on me. I rarely receive apologies for the intentional or unintentional hurt she causes. There's also a lack of genuine gratitude, as she feels entitled to what I do, and I'm constantly pressured to do more to make her feel special.

My youngest child is 11 years old, so I'm past the phase of baby care. I'm the sole breadwinner, and I'm fully dedicated to my responsibilities. I also assist with household chores, like laundry, cooking, and taking care of the kids. I usually handle grocery shopping as well because when my wife does it, she overspends and reacts negatively when questioned.

My wife's primary role is to manage the household as a stay-at-home mom. However, she often displays chronic irritation due to boredom and emptiness, manifesting as sullenness and silent treatment. I try to give her as much time as I can, but it never seems to be enough for her.

What's working for me is employing the JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) approach, being less analytical, avoiding deep conversations, and using simple language to communicate. This has significantly reduced tantrums and triggers, bringing more peace to our home. Additionally, it helps to be accommodating, saying yes to her wishes and desires.

Finally, I've found it beneficial to give her some alone time away from me and the children. Once a year, I send her to her parents' home out of state so she can unwind and clear her mind while I take care of everything at home. Her return brings a slight sense of refreshment, reducing BPD episodes. I understand that this is a lifelong condition, and I need to manage it and take better care of her without expecting her to change. The idealized marriage I envision may never be fully realized, but I'm striving to make the best of the circumstances I've been given. I hope this insight helps you and others facing similar challenges.

Thanks so much, our wifes sound similar as does our home situation. My wife is in therapy but not diagnosed BPD or aware she has it. She has been told she is codependent. My wife has not told her about how she love bombed me and called me her favourite person. She has told told her she cut me off with sex over a decade ago as I had said no a couple of times when tired. She has not told her she used to ride a motorbike so fast as she didn't care what happened to her. She has not told her about the numerous sexual abuses she suffered as she deems not relevant. Or her eating disorder as a teenager.. She has told her therapist about the neglectful upbringing, her narcissist mother, her father who abandoned her, no doubt her terrible husband, I know she has admitted to using silent treatment to! I guess at this point there is no point hoping for a diagnosis, I thought a specialist in NPD/BPD might have spotted it though. She is doing CBT and hypno. She knows she has significant emotional regulation issues, and can't self soothe, she knows she people pleases. But she is just not aware, like your wife about how she is to me and the kids sometimes. She defaintely wont have admitted to the swearing outbursts at me and the kids.

JADE does definately help to a point, but if she ever works out what I am doing she tells me not to use therapy on her! But it also means I need to eat sh*t and sometimes I really get triggered and want to defend the bs thrown at me. I know I shouldn't defend its just so hard.

Like you I do things to give her a break. The 10 day trip I paid for to see her family the other end of the world this year is one example. Nights in hotels for her another. It is sometimes appreciated but often not. Any thank yous would be strictly by text and she usually comes back in a foul mood due to life resuming. She never considers what I might need, but yet still regularly calls me selfish, thoughtless and useless. Although useless has stopped as I absolutely lost it last time as it was so unjust. I am not proud of my self but I swore at her and called her a b*tch. This was a year or so back. My therapist says this is called reactive abuse. As I was pushed so hard I snapped. The irony was I was busy doing the dishes in the sink and she came in about something minor and called me useless!

[SaltyDawg]

CravingPeace,

   I put your comments in italics, and I have commented on these to offer up comparisons / comments / contrasts.


Yes this is grossly unfair. That said she is ok to go for brunch with friends and spend well over the odds. If I go out I need to give an exact time I will be back and heaven forbid I am 15 minutes late.

My wife used to do this with me to a more limited extent.  I learned to say "no", it is a full sentence.  She didn't like it at first when I started doing this 15 months ago.  She senses the 'gig is up', so she doesn't push it, as I have learned how to pushback on her unreasonable demands.  I do keep it reasonable, and she has worked with her therapist on this, so there has been progress here, but I remember back a few years ago where this was so frustrating for me. 


my oldest son said "Daddy why are you so late". He is 6 and is barely aware of what time of day it is, so this came from her bad mouthing me. She then proceeded to tell me she had now missed out on seeing a friend it was urgent .

My wife is notorious for doing this, in the form of 'mumbling' under her breath so the children can hear and understand it.  My D is 16, and reads right through her sh!t.  However, my son, doesn't but he is picking up on it.


I want to put a limit on her credit card as every month there is over spend. But I know she will tell me I am abusing her financially. But really 2500 a month on walmart groceries a month seems excessive, plus thousands at amazon on god knows what. It's hard to track as just says amazon.

Be careful, putting your wife on an allowance, that can be construed as financial abuse.  $2.5k is a lot for groceries, but if it includes clothing, toys, and other stuff.  My uBPD/uNPDexgf used to buy nice stuff, but didn't pay the basic bills and taxes, she eventually lost the farm she was on, a couple years after I left because of this.  They are impulsive, and are like little children in a candy store, and if there are no boundaries you will go broke buying candy.  Adult size that, and there are issues.  This is about the only area where my wife is atypical (because of the OCPD) except when she is impulsive with money - I suspect this is one of the reasons why she is flying under the radar with Ts.  Might want to work with a couple's T and agree to a budget, and stick with it since it appears to be an issue for you.


But my point is although I have to force me going out to see friends once a week, it usually does not go down well. Sulking etc. But I just force it as I have given up many things due to pressure from her, such as female friends. Although of course she texts male friends. But seeing my friends is one thing i NEED. My family are in a different country so the few friends I have here are important to me.

I fully support your opinion here.  This is where I made a mistake, you stop going out with friends, you lose your local emotional support network - this is the biggest mistake to myself - kind of like shooting yourself in the foot.  I did it to myself, even though I was manipulated by my uBPDw.


She sent me a clip of an instagram influencer who gets up with his one child at 6am to give his wife a break. She sent that to me to give me "tips". The women were all gushing in the comments about how great this fake influencer was.

My wife did something similar, except it was with one of her childhood girlfriend's husband.  However, once she got done listing it, I said, let's compare each of those points, I think in every category I outshined him, so she had enough presence of mind, when she is baseline to think rationally, even though she was irrational when she brought it up.  I use some variation of this question "Honey, I know you feel _________________; can you be so kind as to share the facts that support your feelings".  She hates this question, as she knows she cannot reply to it looking like a fool. 


I have recently started detaching, and not engaging so much. It is causing serious attacks from her

Same here, so when she becomes dysregulated, the targets of blame have shifted to our children (easier target), and I try to intercept; however, there have been a few occasions where the children got the brunt of her tongue lashings.


She is in therapy but as far as I can ascertain her therapist thinks she is codependent as she has not shared everything.

All borderlines are codependents (but not all codependents are borderline - I am a codependent), so this is true.  However, with regards to not sharing everything, there is nothing that is preventing you to write out a letter/email and send it to her therapist.  The therapist will not respond; however, they will read it, and will likely verify some of the facts you put into the writing.  I've done this a few time, and it helps each time, as a good T will use your observations and steer the therapy in that direction.  I use the couple's T for this purpose, I highlight a behavior that is indicative of a symptom, and eventually it gets managed.  Now that the major ones have been conquered, the more subtle ones are more problematic, as they aren't quite as obvious to the T or her.


My wife said I was "discarding her" by being 15 minutes late.

That is her 'fear of abandonment' kicking in, the foundational symptom of being borderline.


She also accuses me of gaslighting, so I am pretty sure she and her therapist have decided I am a narcissist from the delusions my wife will have passed on.

If you are in couple's therapy, and you don't push back on her gaslighting, the T will eventually think you are on the cluster-B spectrum.  If the gaslighting is intentional it is likely transference or projection of her own bad behaviors.  If it is unintentional, then she is making up facts to match her feelings, and this is a form of dissasociation.


The irony is I helped her find that therapist as she said it was too hard finding one and she needed help. So I found one with the skills I thought that would really help her, and I obviously pay for this. The therapist at first said she needed to see her twice a week. She says she is broken but not evil.

BPDs, if they are pure borderlines, they are not consciously evil, just subconsciously psychotic (mentally broken) where they perceive their raw feelings as facts. 


So now the regular ear bashing and criticism I get is justified as she is "standing up for her self". I am all for constructive criticism as self improvement. It's just when every interaction I have with my wife is her critizising me and being hurtful it gets too much. I said I needed to leave a "resolving" conversation the other day as it was going around in circles and we are not getting anywhere

Even though my opinion is the opposite of the general opinion here this is one area where I am pushing back as most recommend avoiding couple's therapy.  If your wife will embrace couple's therapy, be sure that they will talk to the individual therapists - there is a form to sign (make sure you find one that is familiar in high conflict situations, as BPD couple's therapists are impossible to find).  I use the couple's therapist to highlight a few flaws on myself (so she likes it), but then shift the focus to much more egregious ones on her by describing the behavior only or even let her describe her own feelings.

My wife will also go around in circles.  I limit this to two circles, as her agitation level increases.  I will cut it off, and ask to revisit this topic tomorrow when both of us have cooler heads - even though I am not a hot head she perceives it as such, and if I include myself it makes it more palatable for her, as I too do not want to argue or have it escalate.


she said "good I am sick of hearing your voice", even though it was her trying to force me to have this "resolving issue" conversations, and I had told her I was tired and i did not want to argue. If I try JADE she tries even harder to argue. Or tells me to stop using my therapy on her.

Mine doesn't complain about hearing my voice.  However, she does tell me to "stop studying and analyzing me", similar to your therapy comment.


Exhausted but also feeling very sad, ad I have decided to at least speaking with attorneys. So I guess maybe I should be moving boards.

Very understandable.  I have read the 'Splitting' book by Bill Eddy.  I have not spoken with attorneys; however, the plan is in place to do so if things get worse.

I am using the mantra of "Hope and Pray for the Best; however, plan for the worst".  It is exhausting.  I do love my wife and children.  I would have liked a much healthier emotional relationship with all of them.  However, my job was a contributing factor, as I was away much more than the normal spouse as I went to sea for a living.  I also had comparatively minor issues as a child, but it still has contributed to me being somewhat codependent.

====

Continue doing self-care, set boundaries, HurtNTired has a good summary of what I do at https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=356942.0;topicseen.

[CravingPeace]

Thanks SaltyDawg

My wife used to do this with me to a more limited extent.  I learned to say "no", it is a full sentence.  She didn't like it at first when I started doing this 15 months ago.  She senses the 'gig is up', so she doesn't push it, as I have learned how to pushback on her unreasonable demands.  I do keep it reasonable, and she has worked with her therapist on this, so there has been progress here, but I remember back a few years ago where this was so frustrating for me. 

I need to start doing this. I did start doing it and I could see how frustrated she got. But she just needs to understand she doesn't commit to exact times she will return which is fine. It is unreasonable to expect me too. Obviously I don't go out unreasonably. But if I go out at 2pm, if I am back at 4pm or 5pm on a Sunday when she has been out the previous afternoon I should not have to say an exact time, or I just spend my entire time clock watching and worrying.

My wife is notorious for doing this, in the form of 'mumbling' under her breath so the children can hear and understand it.  My D is 16, and reads right through her sh!t.  However, my son, doesn't but he is picking up on it.

This is exactly what she does. I have heard here in the next room talking to her self so they can hear. I have even confronted her and she says "I am not talking to you it's none of your business"

Be careful, putting your wife on an allowance, that can be construed as financial abuse.  $2.5k is a lot for groceries, but if it includes clothing, toys, and other stuff.  My uBPD/uNPDexgf used to buy nice stuff, but didn't pay the basic bills and taxes, she eventually lost the farm she was on, a couple years after I left because of this.  They are impulsive, and are like little children in a candy store, and if there are no boundaries you will go broke buying candy.  Adult size that, and there are issues.  This is about the only area where my wife is atypical (because of the OCPD) except when she is impulsive with money - I suspect this is one of the reasons why she is flying under the radar with Ts.  Might want to work with a couple's T and agree to a budget, and stick with it since it appears to be an issue for you.

Thanks for confirming I had a feeling this may be the case. I guess I am just so frustrated on the constant spending . I asked her this morning if we could discuss this evening the budgets, and she agreed so hopefully we can get this agreed and tracked.

All borderlines are codependents (but not all codependents are borderline - I am a codependent), so this is true.  However, with regards to not sharing everything, there is nothing that is preventing you to write out a letter/email and send it to her therapist.  The therapist will not respond; however, they will read it, and will likely verify some of the facts you put into the writing.  I've done this a few time, and it helps each time, as a good T will use your observations and steer the therapy in that direction.  I use the couple's T for this purpose, I highlight a behavior that is indicative of a symptom, and eventually it gets managed.  Now that the major ones have been conquered, the more subtle ones are more problematic, as they aren't quite as obvious to the T or her.

Absolutely I mean I think I am codependent which she laughed at when I mentioned it. She said "oh you think you are codependent and smiled". But my therapist suggested it and I read a book on it. I know I try and fix things, and be her protector. Save her from her hard upbringing and her abusive exes etc. I saw myself as a safe port in a storm. Gave her somewhere to stay as she hated being at her mothers, this was in our 20s. This type of thinking and the horrible stories she told me when we first met and how much she love bombed me and told me I was perfect and her favouritest completely hooked me. I remember sometimes I would wake up and she would be staring at me. It did freak me out a bit at the time, and we spoke about it. She said I can't help it if I just really love you! This was a long time ago, she hasn't treated me anything like that for over a decade. These days I feel good if I get home and she isn't grumpy and actually says hello, there is a sense of relief. I have realised that is quite a low bar to set to  feel ok in a relationship just because your wife says hello to you, and doesn't ignore you.

My wife said I was "discarding her" by being 15 minutes late.

That is her 'fear of abandonment' kicking in, the foundational symptom of being borderline.

Totally even the other day when I was just walking dog with kids and told her I wouldn't respond to the accusations and criticisms by text as was enjoying myself. She couldn't help carry on sending me stuff "as she needed to get it down" tellin gme I didn't need to respond and then still text and ask me how long I would be, asking for a response!. We had only been out an hour. She absolutely refuses to accept she has abandonment issues when I flag this is likely what is going on. But talk about not respecting boundaries.

Even though my opinion is the opposite of the general opinion here this is one area where I am pushing back as most recommend avoiding couple's therapy.  If your wife will embrace couple's therapy, be sure that they will talk to the individual therapists - there is a form to sign (make sure you find one that is familiar in high conflict situations, as BPD couple's therapists are impossible to find).  I use the couple's therapist to highlight a few flaws on myself (so she likes it), but then shift the focus to much more egregious ones on her by describing the behavior only or even let her describe her own feelings.

I guess I agree with the general opinion here. We tried it once, she was fine when the therapist was telling me what I should change and work on. As soon as I flagged that my wife didn't communicate and expected me to be a mind reader, and my wife said but if you loved me you would know what I need, the therapist stopped her and said no, that is unreasonable. My wife absolutely shut down and refused to go again. When I mentioned that occasion recently she plays the victim and says she was hormonal and the therapist didn't understand. The therapist was female too.

Another time a therapist asked us to build emotions and connection by looking at each others hands, and sitting there stroking each others hands, and studying the detail of each others hands. It was so uncomfortable as we were totally disconnected. I found it awkward, my wife now says I wasn;t willing to do the exercise. But I tried it just felt so jarring, against how I was being treated to expect that.

My wife will also go around in circles.  I limit this to two circles, as her agitation level increases.  I will cut it off, and ask to revisit this topic tomorrow when both of us have cooler heads - even though I am not a hot head she perceives it as such, and if I include myself it makes it more palatable for her, as I too do not want to argue or have it escalate.


she said "good I am sick of hearing your voice", even though it was her trying to force me to have this "resolving issue" conversations, and I had told her I was tired and i did not want to argue. If I try JADE she tries even harder to argue. Or tells me to stop using my therapy on her.

Mine doesn't complain about hearing my voice.  However, she does tell me to "stop studying and analyzing me", similar to your therapy comment.

Exactly it went around a couple of times or more like three times, I said we have already been over this and I have answered. I am getting too upset and frustrated to keep going over this so I am going to go. That is when she said she "good, I am sick of hearing your voice". It's pretty nasty to be honest where she is forcing me to go over and over things we have discussed to try and force an apology. I let her know I am getting upset and frustrated and want to go, so she tries to hurt me more. I know it is her abandonment issues, and her determination to beat me down untill I agree with her opinion and apologise. But its so hard. Her resolving things is explaining and explaining and telling me my flaws until I eventually give in and say sorry. Even if I don't agree. I guess it lets her off the hook on her emotions, as she can then feel like it was my fault as I said sorry so she can feel better. meanwhile I leave feeling miserable, as I have been forced into an apology when I did nothing wrong.

Very understandable.  I have read the 'Splitting' book by Bill Eddy.  I have not spoken with attorneys; however, the plan is in place to do so if things get worse.


Continue doing self-care, set boundaries, HurtNTired has a good summary of what I do at https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=356942.0;topicseen.

Thanks will review these

[CravingPeace]

However, with regards to not sharing everything, there is nothing that is preventing you to write out a letter/email and send it to her therapist.  The therapist will not respond; however, they will read it, and will likely verify some of the facts you put into the writing.  I've done this a few time, and it helps each time, as a good T will use your observations and steer the therapy in that direction.

I want to do this but I am terrified to. What if the therapist decides I am some sort of Narcissist just trying to manipulate. What if she tells my wife I did this. My wife would see this as a huge invasion of privacy

[SaltyDawg]

I previously said...

However, with regards to not sharing everything, there is nothing that is preventing you to write out a letter/email and send it to her therapist.  The therapist will not respond; however, they will read it, and will likely verify some of the facts you put into the writing.  I've done this a few time, and it helps each time, as a good T will use your observations and steer the therapy in that direction.

I want to do this but I am terrified to. What if the therapist decides I am some sort of Narcissist just trying to manipulate. What if she tells my wife I did this. My wife would see this as a huge invasion of privacy

Here are some questions/comments to think about...

I find that T's will not share the specific contents; however, they will likely mention that they received a letter/e-mail from you so they can introduce some of your concerns.  I've eliminated this by using the Couple's T to communicate with her individual T. ***

From my wife's narrative, the previous couple's T already thought I was a Cluster-B, by speaking up, poking holes into their false narrative (which the previous couple's T did not believe), and the T will get more and more flustered when you do this, as most therapists are women, and women generally defend other women, some more so than others.  If you can find a guy T, that is great, but they are few and far between.

Perhaps the best way to approach this is to ask your wife if you can either attend one of her sessions, and speak directly (you will have to be a word smith to do this, I used a prepared statement when highlighting specific BPD behaviors that highlighted symptoms initially, specifically the "Rapid changes in mood, lasting usually only a few hours and rarely more than a few days" AND "Inappropriately intense anger or problems controlling anger" with 0-100% full blown rages in under a second) which at that time were the most damaging at that time including projected physical violence and reported physical violence - so the T worked on 'anger management' issues successfully.  Be prepared to answer your wife's biggest grievances face to face, I was able to easily acknowledge how I abandoned her with my work while I was out to sea.  I also indicated that it has been corrected, with my retirement where I was home full time now.

If you want to revisit couple's therapy, perhaps, interview several that are familiar with BPD or high conflict.  Find three that meet this criteria, and then have your wife, pick one (so she is in control) and run with it.

I really understand 'standing up to your wife,' as you don't know how she will punish you - that is a possibility almost a certainty with an extinction burst.  However, if you follow that link I mentioned earlier, with specific reference to what I highlighted in yellow, if will either effect a change, or create conflict in the form of an extinction burst.  I felt I had nothing to lose, and everything to gain.  I either wanted this relationship to work, or I wanted out (you hinted at this in your post above, but this is the bettering board, so I cannot recommend this).  I personally was willing to lose everything (a calculated risk, as I was about 95% sure all of her threats were bluff's and had no real teeth behind them).  You will have to figure this part out about your own wife, does she follow through with her threats, or is it posturing - even my wife's suicide attempts were bluffs, as she said on 3 (of the 6) attempts "you are not supposed to behave that way" indicating she wanted to change my behavior so I could be more of her 'slave' and rescue her with my martyrdom.

I might suggest, try calling a bluff, that won't cost you the relationship - like coming home when you want to instead of the 15-minute window she specifies.  Then pick another in a week's time, and call that bluff too, and eventually move up to the bigger ones, if each successive one is successful.

I changed the savior/martyr aspect of my codependence to one of detachment with love - I called her bluffs of divorce, and the balance of power shifted away from her towards me.  Now I am in control, and this is how it is affecting her... (this is a good feeling)



*** In today's couple's session, it was something straight out of a Twilight Zone script.  Everything I am about to say my wife did in front of the couple's T - it was jaw dropping astonishing...  Usually the T takes a few notes - today it was almost non-stop taking notes at a furious pace for the better part of the session, at least 45 minutes if not 50 minutes of the 55 minute session.  At times, the T was 'wide-eyed' in astonishment.

For the first half, my wife was giving me compliments on how I supported her in handling our D16, who was a bit cheeky with my wife when my wife dysregulated on her a few days prior.  My D16, had suicidal ideation, self-mutilation ideation (cutting), and threatened to go 'no contact' (NC) on her 18th birthday.  My D also shared how she mirrored my wife's behaviors, and my wife agreed with our daughter's assessment  (all of which are severe BPD symptoms and traits - ones that usually lands them in 'grippy sock' jail).  She was impressed on how I did the 'safety checks' on the ideations which I confirmed I did where I stopped at the 'planning' stage on each, as there was no 'plan'.  All of this was my wife's accurate narrative, which I verified.

This was the first 30 minutes of the session, when my wife finally stopped talking the T asked  if there was anything else on our relationship and observed how I was being supportive of my wife in this matter,  and I shifted the focus, after my wife deferred to me as she said that she had spoken the entire time (her words), and if we could work on something we set as a goal in the previous session of 'reconnecting'.

My wife then gave a long spiel on how she was overwhelmed by our D, by work, by church, and gave every reason why she couldn't do it, and mentioned how each set of emotions affected all of her activities and simply couldn't get in the 'mood' (first five years she was hypersexual, and since 2006 she was hyposexual - I didn't want every day or several times per day, but I did want it more than once a year, I would settle for 1-2 times per week.

After my wife gave her excuses...  then the T asked her about her issues with me when my wife mentioned it, she highlighted I didn't take a shower today.  I explained that we were going to do yard work together immediately after the session, to which the T thought that was a great idea.
(which we did, in which I wound up collecting about 25 bags of leaves that were mulched by me, she had about 3 bags of weeds and sticks she picked up in the same amount of time).

She also highlighted I was overweight, I agreed and took ownership by pointing to my belly, that I use 'sugar' as a coping mechanism, it is the only one that is the only unhealthy one I have.  I also shared that I was lighter than her brother, when she compared me to him.  When I mentioned her brother, she also highlighted the anger management issues that her dad had with her brother which caused more than a decade of NC between them when we circled back to our daughter's NC threat - red flag FOO (family of origin) issues for the multi-generational issues.

She then proceeded (dysregulated) to tell me that she did not feel any support at all from me and did not support her doing family chores...  I was ready for this false narrative, and my wife set herself up for an epic fail on this one...

The T then asked me if I would support her (forgetting what had just transpired a few minutes ago) - I suspect this is a 'muscle memory' response for all therapists as it obviously showed she didn't connect the dots at the moment.  I pushed back, and asked the T to recall how much praise my wife just lavished on me (albeit dysfunctionally) on how I supported her with our daughter with an excessive amount of projection and transference from my wife.  Then I asked her to recall how my wife complained I had not changed clothes, as I told the T that I was supporting her by doing a lot of yard work.  I then went on and said, that I do understand that my wife 'feels' as though I am not doing these things, yet the 'facts', which was just shared with you (the T) indicates otherwise.

Deafening silence for about 10 seconds.  Then the T prompted my wife to explain why her feelings didn't match the facts.  My wife broke down, cried (I brought some Kleenex, another show of support).  My wife eventually came up with a variation on how all of these negative things make her feel this way and how she couldn't separate it, similar to the reasoning for not wanting to have intimacy.  Yet, I was accused again, of being indifferent to her feelings, when all of my actions indicate otherwise.

I then explained the difference between how my wife and I deal with the same set of emotional events.  I chose to use a nautical analogy - as that was my previous profession.  I explained that I compartmentalize each emotional event, so my emotions for a particular emotional event, are segregated from other emotional events, so if one is damaged, the ship will not sink.  I went on to explain if there are no boundaries, and there is ingress of emotions that flow to other emotional events, the ship will eventually sink as there are too many emotional events that are  compromised by a singular event.

I also explained that I take on other emotional events, that are not shared by my wife, as I realize they are too stressful for her, I gave the specific example of handling the insurance claim for our daughter who was rear-ended by an 18 wheeler.  The 18-wheeler's insurance company was dragging its feet, and I had to get the process moving again - something that my wife would find way too stressful to deal with, and she openly acknowledged it.

While the couple's T, has seen bits and pieces (usually one symptom/trait at a time, sometimes two, but not a whole gambit) or a major event like major devalue & discard in one session (she wanted a separation) followed by the recycle & idealization in the next one of my wife's behaviors relating to BPD previously - she never saw a 'complete sh!t show' start to finish like she did today in one session with several symptoms.  I know my wife has her individual therapy tomorrow, so it will be quite interesting to see if there is substantial communication between the two in order affect meaningful change.

Today's sessions cemented my 'feeling are not facts' argument for disassociation under stress, and I feel validated by the T, as she previously pushed back on that assertion.

I am going to close this post with a reminder for self-care, which I know you do, but I am putting it here for others, as this was a very important part of my own recovery process in dealing with my current borderline.

Take care with self-care.

[CravingPeace]

SaltyDawg, it is awesome the progress you are making. But if I may, it sounds like your wife does take it on board what is being said. Or at least the therapist is managing how it is relayed to your wife . My wife would shut down if she was told anything/ or suggested anything might not be true, or her feels dont align with the facts., or feels slighted in any way. Or at least that is how she did react previously. I am wondering if now she accepts she needs therapy and she is broken she might be more reasonable. She still just thinks she suffered trauma she needs to heal from, not that BPD could be a factor. I have not suggested this to her. As most people say not to. It seems when we have deep discussions about the issues and I accept blame she is much more reasonable. But when she gets upset or disregulated she cannot see that what she is doing is unfair. It all has to be my fault. She couldn't possibly feel empty, or unloved, or disrespected just because she feels that way. It must be something I am doing.

[Pook075]

SaltyDawg, it is awesome the progress you are making. But if I may, it sounds like your wife does take it on board what is being said. Or at least the therapist is managing how it is relayed to your wife . My wife would shut down if she was told anything/ or suggested anything might not be true, or her feels dont align with the facts., or feels slighted in any way. Or at least that is how she did react previously. I am wondering if now she accepts she needs therapy and she is broken she might be more reasonable. She still just thinks she suffered trauma she needs to heal from, not that BPD could be a factor. I have not suggested this to her. As most people say not to. It seems when we have deep discussions about the issues and I accept blame she is much more reasonable. But when she gets upset or disregulated she cannot see that what she is doing is unfair. It all has to be my fault. She couldn't possibly feel empty, or unloved, or disrespected just because she feels that way. It must be something I am doing.

Hey friend.  Humor me for a moment and let's look at this from a different perspective.

First, she's not broken.  She sees the world through a different lens and sometimes responds inappropriately.  Broken implies that she needs to be fixed, and so many here will say things like, "Change is impossible without years of DBT".  That's simply not true and most people here can easily prove it to themselves by looking at others their BPD communicates with.  Unless your wife is toxic with every person in her life, almost 100% of the time, then she can build healthy relationships and choose to behave appropriately.

The answer here is better communication and building trust, which are the hallmarks of any marriage, any friendship for that matter.  BPD's lash out because they fear abandonment, confrontation, etc.  They need love and support to heal.  But when you tell them they're wrong, that they're broken and need therapy to be right, that feels like the exact opposite of love and support....it's judgement and condemnation.

Could therapy help?  Yes!  But it can only help on her timelines, inside her own comfort zone.  There's nothing anyone can do to force that or make her see it differently, because it only proclaims "you're broken and worthless."  I'm sure those wouldn't be your words, but it's what she hears and she runs from it.

The best advice I can give is to talk to your wife and be brutally honest- you love her and you want this to work. How can we stop this bickering, what can we do to move past this?  Then genuinely listen while loving and supporting her, without defending or admitting to anything.  Focus on her feelings only, and keep reinforcing that you love her and want to understand where the <emotion> is coming from.

[CravingPeace]

Hey friend.  Humor me for a moment and let's look at this from a different perspective.

First, she's not broken.  She sees the world through a different lens and sometimes responds inappropriately.  Broken implies that she needs to be fixed, and so many here will say things like, "Change is impossible without years of DBT".  That's simply not true and most people here can easily prove it to themselves by looking at others their BPD communicates with.  Unless your wife is toxic with every person in her life, almost 100% of the time, then she can build healthy relationships and choose to behave appropriately.

To be super clear I never said she was broken. She said she feels broken and she wanted therapy. So just repeating what she said. Perhaps I could have told her I didn't think she is broken. But if she feels that she is broken,  I know from experience it would be really invalidating to counter that. So I obv should sympathies with her feelings.

The best advice I can give is to talk to your wife and be brutally honest- you love her and you want this to work. How can we stop this bickering, what can we do to move past this?  Then genuinely listen while loving and supporting her, without defending or admitting to anything.  Focus on her feelings only, and keep reinforcing that you love her and want to understand where the <emotion> is coming from.

Totally get it. I am just not feeling that way right now, its been a period of pretty unfair, ungrateful and abusive behaviour against me. Very hard to go and be all emotional when feeling a bit shell shocked and over it. But I get the point. Maybe I need to fake it till I make it.

[SaltyDawg]

CravingPeace,

   I must apologize for the delay in responding, but here are some observations to what you said most recently...


But if I may, it sounds like your wife does take it on board what is being said. Or at least the therapist is managing how it is relayed to your wife.

Sometimes.  When my wife is baseline, and not triggered, she has moments of 'clarity' and appears to know what she is doing is wrong, other times not, or she only gets part of what is being communicated as wrong.  Sometimes the therapist is able to 'reach' her and she takes corrective action.  Other times, especially when she is stressed or triggered, and I am painted black, the session becomes a 'bit*h session' about how bad I am.  My goal is to enter the session with my wife being in a non-triggered state, I let my wife do most of the talking, but I steer my wife to topics with issues she had at work, church, and/or our children in the past week, so I am not the target of blame, so we can use talk therapy to process those events, which are often similar in nature, and how to handle them, which in turn benefits me and everyone she interfaces with.


My wife would shut down if she was told anything/ or suggested anything might not be true, or her feels dont align with the facts., or feels slighted in any way. Or at least that is how she did react previously.

My wife was that way when we first started counseling.  She thought I was the 'f-'d up one' that 'needed fixing'.  I was complacent for the first 3 years, and the first couple's therapist agreed with my wife, until my wife had her suicide attempt in response to a homework assignment, and things began to shift. 

Looking at this in retrospect, this may have been necessary to soften my wife up to allow her look at herself and be able to work on herself, even though there was really no apparent progress, other than her starting to see an individual therapist at the urging of the first couple's therapist.

For your wife, perhaps, try validating her feelings, while disregarding the facts that don't match the feelings.  At least initially.

If you would notice, I did validate my wife's feelings when they shifted and she said I was not supporting her.  However, I also cited examples from earlier in the session where I was validating her in how she interfaced with our daughter.  I also cited an example of my intent to do yard work (which was done).  I gently made the statement to the Therapist how the facts that my wife had just said doesn't match what my wife was saying when she shifted her perspective after I mentioned 'reconnecting' - something that is apparently very stressful for my wife - likely something unconscious regarding kissing, but my wife's mind immediately jumps to sex.  I have a sneaking suspicion there is some kind of sexual trauma that she has totally disassociated from from a handful of vague observations, but that's it, nothing definite.  I have talked with my individual therapist, and mentioned in an e-mail to both the couple's T and her individual T back in February (when I was last accused of having an affair with a licensed counselor by her) of my suspicions - as a 'reconnection' assignment by the couple's T is what was ever so triggering for my wife.


I am wondering if now she accepts she needs therapy and she is broken she might be more reasonable.

That's a very good question.  The only way to find out is to ask your wife, or possibly even allude to it.  Ask her how she feels, and how she feels about the relationship is going.  If she acknowledges it... Urge her to brainstorm on how to fix this.  If she doesn't come up with 'therapy' perhaps suggest therapy with an open-ended question like "Would you think if we saw someone, perhaps a therapist, do you think this would help?"

Shifting focus back to my wife; she knows she has issues.  Even though I have never called her this, she perceives herself as a "monster" and "broken" even though I have never used either word to describe her - the closest is 'crazy', but never to her face.  She also thinks with all of these improvements, she is 'fixed' (prior to this most recent incident, which I have labelled a 'lapse' and she a 'setback').  My wife is aware of this 'setback' and is moving forward.  She is downplaying it (out of shame?), even though there was quite a bit of fallout from it with our daughter, as our daughter was the target of blame (it has shifted away from me).  My daughter handled herself well, even though the couple's T took up my wife's side and asked me to validate the invalid - ugh - as my wife was very convincing to the therapist that my daughter was completely in the wrong by not washing the dishes.  The dishes were not washed when we came home, and my wife 'lost it' on her.  While the dishes were a trigger, the symptom of inappropriately intense anger was displayed by my wife, first time since the July 4th weekend (it used to be up to twice a day, several times per week) - big improvement, but a setback none the less.


She still just thinks she suffered trauma she needs to heal from, not that BPD could be a factor. I have not suggested this to her. As most people say not to. It seems when we have deep discussions about the issues and I accept blame she is much more reasonable.

Often BPD is caused by childhood trauma - let her think this is the issue (at least initially).  Don't talk about BPD, unless she brings it up.  It does not matter what the official label is, but if she is seeking help for cPTSD (as a result of her trauma), it can be effective in managing her more damaging symptoms.  I didn't care what the therapists called it, as long as there was quantifiable progress in my wife's symptoms, and there has been.  My wife still doesn't think she is BPD, even though 9/9 symptoms are present (except self-mutilation, but that is part of the suicide symptom which she does have).


But when she gets upset or disregulated she cannot see that what she is doing is unfair. It all has to be my fault. She couldn't possibly feel empty, or unloved, or disrespected just because she feels that way. It must be something I am doing.

Instead of taking the blame on this - as this is validating the invalid - don't do this; instead focus on your wife's feelings.  I just completed a two week course on new communication techniques that use these principles, and it is already working wonders for me.  The short version of this communication tool using strengthening rapport, and communicating using support, empathy, validation with very aggressive adjectives  (replace 'this makes you upset', with 'this makes you furious') (avoid talking about the truth with deflection).  Deliberately ask her open ended questions, and let her come up with the solution, and let her think it is her idea.  Avoid making any suggestions on solutions, it must all come from her.  Let her think she is in control, and only use your words to nudge her in the direction you want her to go, letting her think it is her idea and solution.

btw, persistent feelings of emptiness is yet another symptom of BPD.

If she goes completely off the rails and cannot be reasoned with - go 'grey rock' (do not JADE) while she is dysregulated, until she can re-regulate herself.  For my wife this is a sleep cycle (or two in a handful of cases).

lmk if you have any questions on this, and I will try to answer/clarify.

In the mean time, take care with self-care.