Forgiveness - is that the endgame in the so called healing process?

[Mr Hollande]

Is that the endgame in the so called healing process? Is it what we are or should be trying to achieve? Is forgiveness the measure that sets everyone free?

I'm interested in hearing everyone's opinion.

[enlighten me]

I personally don't think forgiveness is necessary for recovering. There are things that my exs did that I can accept but not forgive. These are the malicious acts not the fallout from their disorder. Yes the disorder might have pushed them to do it but at the end of the day they had other choices they could have made.

I think if you can accept it happened and draw a line under it then you can recover from it.

[C.Stein]

I believe forgiveness is about releasing the toxic emotions related to whatever you are forgiving.  It's less about excusing them for their actions and more about putting it all behind you. 

You can certainly achieve forgiveness but that doesn't mean you will ever forget.

[Mutt]

The title suggests that forgiveness is the last stage.

Freedom is the last stage.

You'll hear some people say that you don't need forgiveness and you will hear others say that it helps.

First, I think that you find forgiveness for yourself. I also forgive my ex wife. I didn't tell her that I forgave her because I think that she has to understand her actions.

I wanted to let go of all of it because I didn't want it to affect my emotional state and forgiveness was a part of it for my healing journey. I wanted to put as much of it as possible to rest.

[gameover]

Forgiveness is the start of the healing process.

Forgiving yourself for things you didn't know and couldn't control.  Forgiving your BPD partner for who they are.  Forgiving the disorder.  Forgiving their parents or life circumstance for making them who they are.  Forgiving your parents and your life circumstances for making you who you are.

Only at that point can you begin to focus on the things you can control--and that's you.  The endgame is emotional freedom; it's the ability to drive the narrative of your life and relationships and to be able to learn from the past and other people without being defined by them.

[flourdust]

I don't think forgiveness is necessary. I think acceptance is.

Acceptance means that you

• Understand what happened and why it happened, as best as you are able



• Are comfortable with knowing what you know, and knowing that there are things you will never know (I don't mean to sound like Donald Rumsfeld here -- but I think "looking for closure" is a form of non-acceptance)



• Have internalized any needed lessons from the experience, with the intent to use that wisdom in the future



• No longer have strong bursts of emotion or recurring thoughts about the experience



• Are not acting out your reactions to the past in your new experiences (e.g., avoiding all future relationships)

I had an NPD boss who practically destroyed my career and life. I'm still recovering financially from that experience. But I've accepted it. I will never forgive NPD boss, but I am no longer consumed with the feelings and memories of that experience. I just don't think about her, and when I do, it's with the full understanding that she's a bad person -- but without particularly intense feelings about it.

[thisworld]

Great topic, thank you.

I used to have a problem with the very word healing I'm not a native speaker of English so words may have different connotations for me depending on where I came across them first. So, this word used to connote something New Age to me and that has never been part of my identity. Similarly, Health (in English) is first and foremost a noise band from Los Angeles for me:) Nowadays, I use whatever comes to my mind. Licking wounds and working on myself is good enough. (Just wanted to share this because "so-called healing" made me smile.)

And forgiveness. I think it's a tricky concept and no, it's not necessary for recovery. I don't think there is an ultimate recipe for recovery, either. There are some methods that are known to work, but in the end of the day it is an individual process and the compass is inside us. Many people who say they have "forgiven" someone will describe it in different ways anyway. Some will describe their feeling as complete indifference, others will mention more compassion or kind feelings. And still, someone who thinks they are not showing compassion may actually be more compassionate than someone who thinks they are. Concepts don't mean the same thing for everyone. My personal goal is to achieve a point of complete emotional independence from and indifference to my ex partner. I can go there without forgiving but accepting. (Imagine a culture that doesn't even have the concept, humans would still heal I guess) The rest, my FOO issues, my boundaries whatever belong solely to me, and I see the awaiting process as learning and growing. That happens with anyone anyway. Shall I be able to go back and remember with him with kindness? I don't care. I don't set that as a goal. That depends on the damage and everyone's individual story. Many rape victims, victims of other physical abusers, psychopaths, sadists find it offensive when forgiveness is set as a goal for them - and yes, people who did these horrendous things also have psychiatric disorders - my T thinks my BPD ex has sadistic and psychopathic tendencies. Can the forgiveness approach draw a line somewhere? I don't know. Still, someone with a different upbringing may say forgiveness liberates them. Whatever works for you. The goal, I believe, is freedom and independence. From a philosophical and technical standpoint, with my goal of complete indifference, how can I forgive a person that I'm indifferent to? What's the difference? Does forgiveness perpetuate the conceptual presence of offense? I find this interesting. (Not for recovery purposes though:)

In terms of recovery, I think there is a trap sometimes, forgiveness comes up too early. A lot of people who are hurt and looking for support almost immediately hear that they need to forgive and inside they revolt. This is very normal. At this stage, we may feel invalidated. We close our sensors to the concept anyway because the other person has not empathized with us yet, maybe they even don't know the extent of our hurt, yet they tell us to forgive. You know, someone has wronged you, and here you have another duty: change your feelings and forgive. We feel somehow wronged again. (My narc mom used to do this to me a lot when I was a kid. I became a very angry kid)  I have learnt: No. Accept your feelings, your are sane and they are there for a reason. Work on them, find your own ego-vulnerabilities (because you responded to someone's attack by feeling something negative), put the situation in perspective and decide where you want to go from there. Personally, I can decide about forgiveness only after this.

Whatever I do, it's also important to remember to practice my right to protect myself from future potential trauma

Thanks again for this topic.

[gameover]

I don't think forgiveness is necessary. I think acceptance is.

But isn't forgiveness really just the detachment of your emotional state from a particular person? And isn't the unwillingness to forgive really just prioritizing someone else's agency over your own?

Forgiveness is acceptance.  It doesn't mean that you're saying that what they did was right or that they don't have responsibility in the matter or that you should forget what happened or let them back into your life.  What forgiveness is is saying (figuratively--you don't have to tell anybody) to another person, "You are who you are.  I'm not responsible for your actions and you're not responsible for my emotional state."

You can be just as bound to your BPD partner by anger, resentment, bitterness, some checklist of past wrongs, as you ever were by love.  Forgiveness is taking back power over yourself.

[thisworld]

I don't think forgiveness is necessary. I think acceptance is.

But isn't forgiveness really just the detachment of your emotional state from a particular person? And isn't the unwillingness to forgive really just prioritizing someone else's agency over your own?

Forgiveness is acceptance.  It doesn't mean that you're saying that what they did was right or that they don't have responsibility in the matter or that you should forget what happened or let them back into your life.  What forgiveness is is saying (figuratively--you don't have to tell anybody) to another person, "You are who you are.  I'm not responsible for your actions and you're not responsible for my emotional state."

This is what I'm trying to say exactly. Gameover describes this as forgiveness, but I describe this as independence. Yet, we want the same thing. I think no concept is ultimately necessary. We'll know the feeling when it comes (and some concepts will be useful and some will not) - if we work on it though.

[flourdust]

I don't think forgiveness is necessary. I think acceptance is.

But isn't forgiveness really just the detachment of your emotional state from a particular person? And isn't the unwillingness to forgive really just prioritizing someone else's agency over your own?

Forgiveness is acceptance.  It doesn't mean that you're saying that what they did was right or that they don't have responsibility in the matter or that you should forget what happened or let them back into your life.  What forgiveness is is saying (figuratively--you don't have to tell anybody) to another person, "You are who you are.  I'm not responsible for your actions and you're not responsible for my emotional state."

You can be just as bound to your BPD partner by anger, resentment, bitterness, some checklist of past wrongs, as you ever were by love.  Forgiveness is taking back power over yourself.

I guess I'm not sure if we're talking about different concepts or not.

Forgiveness, to me, means a transaction in which one is extending acceptance and compassion to another (whether or not there's any actual transaction or it just happens in your head). I don't believe I need to have compassion for someone or accept them in order to accept part of my own past and modulate my own feelings about my past. I have no compassion for my NPD boss. I think she's a bad person. I don't accept that it's OK for her to be how she is. I accept that my experience with her happened, and I no longer need to dwell on it. That works for me.

[thisworld]

Forgive comes from Old English forgiefan "give, grant, allow; remit (a debt), pardon (an offense)," also "GIVE UP" and "give in marriage".

I guess we have all forgiven in some sense already   

[gameover]

I don't think forgiveness is necessary. I think acceptance is.

But isn't forgiveness really just the detachment of your emotional state from a particular person? And isn't the unwillingness to forgive really just prioritizing someone else's agency over your own?

Forgiveness is acceptance.  It doesn't mean that you're saying that what they did was right or that they don't have responsibility in the matter or that you should forget what happened or let them back into your life.  What forgiveness is is saying (figuratively--you don't have to tell anybody) to another person, "You are who you are.  I'm not responsible for your actions and you're not responsible for my emotional state."

You can be just as bound to your BPD partner by anger, resentment, bitterness, some checklist of past wrongs, as you ever were by love.  Forgiveness is taking back power over yourself.

I guess I'm not sure if we're talking about different concepts or not.

Forgiveness, to me, means a transaction in which one is extending acceptance and compassion to another (whether or not there's any actual transaction or it just happens in your head). I don't believe I need to have compassion for someone or accept them in order to accept part of my own past and modulate my own feelings about my past. I have no compassion for my NPD boss. I think she's a bad person. I don't accept that it's OK for her to be how she is. I accept that my experience with her happened, and I no longer need to dwell on it. That works for me.

I think we're mostly dealing with an issue of semantics.  I think for a lot of people 'forgiveness' implies some level of self-effacement and repression of you own emotions to preserve someone else's self-concept.  I could see how, from that angle, forgiveness is absolutely not the thing to do.  

And I think this process is absolutely different depending on context.  @flourdust, while I'm not totally familiar with your story, it seems as though what you're dealing with is mostly another person's actions and not your own expectations.  :)id your relationship with your boss involve a level of codependence or enmeshment or was it more of an impersonal encounter with force of disaster (like a tornado hitting your neighborhood)?

For me, I had a greater degree of personal responsibility for my anger towards my disordered loved ones.  I was angry at my parents for not being what I decided a parent should be.  I could still be angry at my exBPDgf for not being who I thought she was and wanted/projected her to be.  :)oes that excuse their actions?  No--but it wasn't their actions that hurt me; it was my own expectations and projections that I was measuring them up against.  That was the source of my anger.  It was literally an inability to accept them for who they were--and let's face it, we all played a role in the idealization of the pwBPD we were romantically involved with that we're responsible for.  Hopefully that clarifies what I mean by 'forgiveness.'

[flourdust]

Yes, I understand what you're saying.

My relationship with my boss was definitely one of house (me) and tornado (her). I am also dealing with a BPD wife with whom I obviously have a much more entangled relationship. I have been moving toward acceptance -- without approval -- of who she is, so that I can more easily let go.

[troisette]

In my experience, forgiveness is possible. But you can't force it, it comes naturally. Sometimes after many years. But always wise not to forget your experiences and hopefully learn from them.

[Skip]

 

I might ask the question from the opposite end:

Is it healthy to hold a grudge

and anger for years?

If we hold onto the anger and the wound for an extended period, can we heal?

Or are we continuously re-immersing ourselves in the injury?

[thisworld]

Definitely. I'm conditioned to forgive. I'm an eternal optimist when it comes to personal relationships. I'll forgive people before they forgive themselves. Hell, I'll forgive before the offense takes place   But then this isn't real forgiveness even. And then, we all know what happens then. It's important to remember the results of our actions.  in the injury?[/center]

[Mutt]

I might ask the question from the opposite end:

Is it healthy to hold a grudge

and anger for years?

If we hold onto the anger and the wound for an extended period, can we heal?

Or are we continuously re-immersing ourselves in the injury?

My dad is narcissistic. I didn't understand traits until I found BPD family. I grieved the loss of the relationship here and learned about BPD psychopathology. I saw similar behaviors and traits with a family member but different.

I held a grudge with my father for over two decades. My father caused me a lot of pain and I wanted him to validate that pain. I wanted him to tell me that he loved me and that he was sorry for the pain that he caused.

The anger that I had for him was turned inward and that caused depression for me. I was depressed when I met my ex wife and her idealization lifted that depression. I also felt validated, something that my father couldn't provide. It felt great. I was carrying emotional wounds that were unresolved that my ex wife soothed.

The anger also meant that my father still had control over me for things that he doesn't have healthy emotional coping skills to understand. My father is emotionally immature.

[thisworld]

That's what I wanted from my mother, too. She never did, even when I asked for it openly telling her the entire theory about it - this is entirely irrational    She simply cannot do it  Even a fake, superficial apology you know, even if to get rid of me. Nope, the woman can't give it. Blank, round-eyed innocent baby look (big cue when dealing with narcs), raging or disappearing. But not one "sorry".

During my early adulthood, when I was much angrier and acted out, I had to use a cognitive reminder not to act aggressively - and remove myself from the potential murder scene. I would say "This woman, whom I'm about to kill, had a worse childhood than me." It helped me empathize - if not forgive- because I believed my childhood was bad, too but more importantly it taught me how important it is not to deny your own feelings. It's about self-care. If we neglect ourselves, at one point the psyche revolts and the body joins.     

I think anger cannot be permanent if we take care of ourselves - our emotions, our being. Anger is a symptom of self-neglect as much as sign of abuse. 

[Conundrum]

Forgiveness (within this narrow framework--romantic endeavors) for me--is whether I grant myself the grace to feel beneficence towards the transgressor. Anger, frustration, lingering hatred and hard feelings are insidious poisons that diminish my essence. Though blind forgiveness bestowed upon the underserving is a bitter brew too. For we are not meant to walk this earth as sacrificial lambs to  abusers. I choose to forgive, though I am not compelled to forgive. Forgiveness is about communion with the transgressor. It is about seeing their flawed humanity while not being repelled by it. It is about the universal elements that are in motion within all of us. It is about the scared confused child behind the transgressors mask. It is about the parts of me that seek to grow.

With forgiveness, I find that it is always (for me) tied to redemption. I will not bestow that beneficence upon the irredeemable. I do not want the negative energy of the irredeemable within the sphere of my romantic life. In contrast, there are the relapsed, the fallen on lost paths with neither solid anchors, adrift causing greater harm to themselves than they will ever cause me. Those that struggle, battling the forces within their natures--who claw and scratch their ways towards the light are redeemable. Redemption is not a linear process filled with rainbows and unicorns. It is a ripple effect in which a fallen person incrementally grows into an authentically decent being.

So to answer the original question posed--in romantic endeavors we usually are not concerned with healing/recovery and forgiving those whom we have absolutely no feelings for. The rub, is that we often still have strong passionate/loving feelings towards the transgressor, and cannot reconcile that with simultaneous feelings of anger, contempt, distrust and even hatred. I would posit that simply evidences that we are human, and do not have to be perfect.

Forgive the redeemable who travel towards redemption (for there is a bond of communion with them) and for the irredeemable--their ways are separate and not you own--therefore it is neither relevant nor material whether you feel/offer beneficence towards them.

[thisworld]

Thank you Conundrum for giving me the opportunity to think about this. You have given me a great gift:)) Forgiveness comes up a lot in my mind and thinking about it is a more constructive stage of recovery than just thinking about my ex partner’s transgressions. I’m learning a lot. I also do apologize in advance if I’m misunderstanding certain concepts and my questions may seem a bit direct or tactless – I’m not a native speaker of English so sometimes they may sound very informal. None of them  are rhetorical.

So, my questions:

1.   If forgiveness, the choice to feel beneficence toward the transgressor, is a way of diminishing anger, is it not self-serving in the end? So, if we can achieve that state without anger, is forgiveness still necessary as a virtue? What differentiates it from indifference, or let’s say non-maleficence, in terms of a self-serving purpose?

2.   From what I understand, this is something you choose not to offer to the irredeemable because you don’t want their negative energy in your life. However, if forgiveness diminishes anger and bitterness, how is it possible to describe the energy of the irredeemable as negative after forgiveness? Why don’t we forgive them once and for all for everything they will ever do? And live with them and not experience what they do as negativity? Why can’t forgiveness achieve this level of neutrality? And when do we decide that they are irredeemable (because my exBPD partner changed a lot? That lack of consistency is one of the traits of his disorder.)

3.   Can forgiveness based on redemption – that is, conditional forgiveness- be forgiveness? If forgiveness is the way to non-anger and if they don’t repent, what shall I base my recovery on? Because blind forgiveness also leads to bitterness? And doesn’t this base my recovery on someone else’s actions?

4.   You say “in romantic endeavors we  usually are not concerned with healing/recovery and forgiving those whom we absolutely have no feelings for. The rub is that we often still have strong passionate/loving feelings towards the transgressor... ”  I think there are a lot people who would fall somewhere between feeling nothing and strong/passionate loving feelings. I also believe that healing is particularly important for those who do not feel that passionate love anymore but feel a strong anger, contempt, hate. What happens to them/us in this system?

5.   Why is forgiveness irrelevant/non-material for those whose road is separate? I understand that forgiveness as you understand it is offered to those who is in an ongoing relationship with a redeemable person. But many of us are not in that situation but are full of anger because we feel we were badly wronged?

6.    I don’t know why but "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone" (John 8: 7,10,11) comes to my mind. What do you think about the punishment of the transgressor (though I’m not necessarily asking in terms of an adulteress)

7.    The child behind the transgressor’s mind. I agree with this, there is a scared child there. But there is a child – and more often than not scared- in everyone. Is it then justified if I react with my scared child capabilities? Different from real scared children, these scared children actually possess adult capabilities, power and do things children do not do. Does forgiving the child mean forgiving adult action? What happens when this scared child in an adults body damage, for instance, a child in a child’s body? Between the two, who forgives who?

8.   Where does forgiveness fit in a framework of justice – ethical or formal?

Thank you for making me think about these.

Have a nice day,

[Conundrum]

Hi, thisworld. Your username reminds me of that old Sam Cooke song... ."what a wonderful world this would be." Those are very thoughtful questions and any apologies are truly unnecessary because you express yourself and write quite nicely regardless whether you are a native speaker.

Unfortunately, time's jaws are snapping at me, as the work day is ending and teenage children require feeding and watering. Consequently, I cannot respond at the moment and will give your questions due thought.

--Conundrum     

[thisworld]

Thank you for your reply Conundrum, it means a lot to me.

I've just come out of a relationship that unexpectedly turned very violent and traumatic with finding my ex partner in the reanimation unit twice in ten days (he proudly calls them "parasuicide that went wrong" but luckily is better now.) I have been confused for a while, unable to read anything critically, think about anything in much depth. Your text was like my return to my own world of thought, questioning, learning and enjoying it actually. I will always remember this with a smile.

Thanks again,

 

[hashtag_loyal]

I don't know about y'all, but I forgave my ex a long time ago and I feel amazing now! Then again, I have always been a very caring and forgiving person, and it is how I have chosen to live my life.

[Trog]

Hey

I think forgiveness is part of the end game, but I think if you are some way from forgiveness the very idea is utterly abhorrent! I remember a year ago this topic came up and the idea of forgiving someone who I felt had ruined my entire life (it really felt like that at the time) was repugnant.

I can say 100% I am over the failure of this relationship and in the time that took I'm still not sure I forgive her as such, I know she's damaged, I can see why she did the things she did but I'm far and away more interested in me. Why I stayed, why I got involved, why it hurt me so much. I see her now very clearly as a mirror and a teacher, I can be philosophical about her and don't see her as a demon anymore. I think she's bad news, I feel sorry for whomever has their hands full now, but she's a person having an experience and I am too, I will have taught her things (though I'm quite sure she'd never admit that) and if she learnt nothing, she's failing at life, it's the whole purpose of life.

I think the end game is truly understanding why this person was in your life and how it helped you evolve past your own problems. The fact is, if you're with a cluster B, you have problems, forget their problems that's not your business, your primary business is your problems. Forgiveness comes once you truly get why they were in your life and what you can learn from that, then it's pretty easy to forgive, at the end, these people are pawns in your life chess game as we were pawns in theirs. Even though it hurt so much at the time, in the long run, they're just painful teachers, not the first and not the last, but perhaps the most painful!

[BorisAcusio]

I think the end game is truly understanding why this person was in your life and how it helped you evolve past your own problems. The fact is, if you're with a cluster B, you have problems, forget their problems that's not your business, your primary business is your problems. Forgiveness comes once you truly get why they were in your life and what you can learn from that, then it's pretty easy to forgive, at the end, these people are pawns in your life chess game as we were pawns in theirs. Even though it hurt so much at the time, in the long run, they're just painful teachers, not the first and not the last, but perhaps the most painful!

[hopealways]

Forgiveness is not necessary but if you are able to forgive then I would say you are well on your way to recovery if not already recovered.

I cannot forgive my ex for all the horrible stuff she did, all the abrupt discards, the rages, name callings, all the times she hit me, lied to me etc etc etc.  Why should I forgive?  My goal is to be free and move on. To not care or wonder any longer. That is my goal. I will get there without forgiving.  (But if you want to forgive that's okay too  )

[Conundrum]

Thank you Conundrum for giving me the opportunity to think about this. You have given me a great gift:)) Forgiveness comes up a lot in my mind and thinking about it is a more constructive stage of recovery than just thinking about my ex partner’s transgressions. I’m learning a lot. I also do apologize in advance if I’m misunderstanding certain concepts and my questions may seem a bit direct or tactless – I’m not a native speaker of English so sometimes they may sound very informal. None of them  are rhetorical.

So, my questions:

1.   If forgiveness, the choice to feel beneficence toward the transgressor, is a way of diminishing anger, is it not self-serving in the end? So, if we can achieve that state without anger, is forgiveness still necessary as a virtue? What differentiates it from indifference, or let’s say non-maleficence, in terms of a self-serving purpose?

Hi thisworld, finding a little time to respond to your perceptive questions. A condition precedent—I do not offer universals in theory or application. We seek out what works best individually, in a confusing world. I prefer feeling good so I stumble in that direction, bumping my head and kicking up some dust, but one size does not fit all.  

1. Alleviating anger may be a collateral consequence of forgiveness but the antecedent is desiring the prescription of communion. For me, that means there but the grace of (insert chosen higher power) goes I.  I am neither more nor less than the transgressor. By forgiving, I  surrender that scorecard of blame and shame. Communion without butthurt resentments feels better than a perpetual divide. However, as you point out there are a number of ways to diminish anger. Forgiveness is not the sole path.

2. Forgiveness is desired to achieve communion. Those whom are intransigent/intractable and not subject to positive change are not those whom I desire to commune with. To determine whether a person is irredeemable, fall down an abyss—if they offer a hand and lift you up they’re redeemable. Seriously, there is no objective answer—it’s subjective.

3/4. Forgiveness (for me) is to achieve communion. It is both self-serving and communal—which are not mutually exclusive ideals. I do not desire communing with those who cannot share with me in the beatific. The path to ending suffering or anger may be like passing a camel through the eye of a needle. The hump always get in the way. Find the hump, whatever it may be, and get over it.

5. Because they neither care whether you forgive them, nor does forgiving an unrepentant abuser ennoble the spirit. Have you seen the lion lie down with the lamb? I have not.

6. I believe in proportional justice. The punishment should fit the crime subject to mitigation when the transgressor evidences rehabilitative traits.

7. What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun? One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth forever. The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose. So you see, thisworld, I try to greet the brand new day with forgiveness for those I desire communion with, and the punishment for the irredeemable is that they have lost the privilege of communing with me. For it is a gift.  After all, isn’t what we see but a dream within a dream—as what is essential remains invisible to the eye.


2.   From what I understand, this is something you choose not to offer to the irredeemable because you don’t want their negative energy in your life. However, if forgiveness diminishes anger and bitterness, how is it possible to describe the energy of the irredeemable as negative after forgiveness? Why don’t we forgive them once and for all for everything they will ever do? And live with them and not experience what they do as negativity? Why can’t forgiveness achieve this level of neutrality? And when do we decide that they are irredeemable (because my exBPD partner changed a lot? That lack of consistency is one of the traits of his disorder.)

3.   Can forgiveness based on redemption – that is, conditional forgiveness- be forgiveness? If forgiveness is the way to non-anger and if they don’t repent, what shall I base my recovery on? Because blind forgiveness also leads to bitterness? And doesn’t this base my recovery on someone else’s actions?

4.   You say “in romantic endeavors we  usually are not concerned with healing/recovery and forgiving those whom we absolutely have no feelings for. The rub is that we often still have strong passionate/loving feelings towards the transgressor... ”  I think there are a lot people who would fall somewhere between feeling nothing and strong/passionate loving feelings. I also believe that healing is particularly important for those who do not feel that passionate love anymore but feel a strong anger, contempt, hate. What happens to them/us in this system?

5.   Why is forgiveness irrelevant/non-material for those whose road is separate? I understand that forgiveness as you understand it is offered to those who is in an ongoing relationship with a redeemable person. But many of us are not in that situation but are full of anger because we feel we were badly wronged?

6.    I don’t know why but "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone" (John 8: 7,10,11) comes to my mind. What do you think about the punishment of the transgressor (though I’m not necessarily asking in terms of an adulteress)

7.    The child behind the transgressor’s mind. I agree with this, there is a scared child there. But there is a child – and more often than not scared- in everyone. Is it then justified if I react with my scared child capabilities? Different from real scared children, these scared children actually possess adult capabilities, power and do things children do not do. Does forgiving the child mean forgiving adult action? What happens when this scared child in an adults body damage, for instance, a child in a child’s body? Between the two, who forgives who?

8.   Where does forgiveness fit in a framework of justice – ethical or formal?

Thank you for making me think about these.

Have a nice day,

Hi thisworld, finding a little time to respond to your perceptive questions. A condition precedent—I do not offer universals in theory or application. We seek out what works best individually, in a confusing world. I prefer feeling good so I stumble in that direction, bumping my head and kicking up some dust, but one size does not fit all.  

1. Alleviating anger may be a collateral consequence of forgiveness but the antecedent is desiring the prescription of communion. For me, that means there but the grace of (insert chosen higher power) goes I.  I am neither more nor less than the transgressor. By forgiving, I  surrender that scorecard of blame and shame. Communion without butthurt resentment feels better than a perpetual divide. However, as you point out there are a number of ways to diminish anger. Forgiveness is not the sole path.

2. Forgiveness is desired to achieve communion. Those whom are intransigent/intractable and not subject to positive change are not those whom I desire to commune with. To determine whether a person is irredeemable, fall down an abyss—if they offer a hand and lift you up they’re redeemable. Seriously, there is no objective answer—it’s subjective.

3/4. Forgiveness (for me) is to achieve communion. It is both self-serving and communal—which are not mutually exclusive ideals. I do not desire communing with those who cannot share with me in the beatific. The path to ending suffering or anger may be like passing a camel through the eye of a needle. The hump always gets in the way. Find the hump, whatever it may be, and get over it.

5. Because they neither care whether you forgive them, nor does forgiving an unrepentant abuser ennoble the spirit. Have you seen the lion lie down with the lamb? I have not.

6. I believe in proportional justice. The punishment should fit the crime subject to mitigation when the transgressor evidences rehabilitative traits.

8. What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun? One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth forever. The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose. So you see, thisworld, I try to greet the brand new day with forgiveness for those I desire communion with, and the punishment for the irredeemable is that they have lost the privilege of communing with me. For it is a gift.  After all, isn’t what we see but a dream within a dream—as what is essential remains invisible to the eye.

[Reforming]

Good topic with a dazzling array of answers and opinions.

The Oxford dictionary definition of forgiveness

"Stop feeling angry or resentful towards (someone) for an offence, flaw, or mistake"

As other posters have said we all have different understandings of what this means.

I think our capacity to forgive others depends on our circumstances and the extent of the injury. When you've spent a long time with someone and you live every day with their collateral damage it can be harder to forgive.

When you're stuck and not moving forward forgiveness is harder. Remembering injury is a very natural defence mechanism - it's an important part of our physiology.

It's harder to forgive when we're frightened of being hurt again and uncertain of our boundaries. It's hard to forgive someone who shows no real remorse for the damage they've caused and is capable and willing to hurt you again.

I would agree with the other posters who say the most important part of forgiveness really begins with ourselves. And when we learn to forgive ourselves it's easier to forgive others.

Is it essential to recovery? I don't think so but it helps. Sometimes we forgive others because they haven't got the capacity to forgive themselves. This is not the same as excusing their destructive behaviour or accepting

Good thread.

Reforming

[BorisAcusio]

Is it essential to recovery? I don't think so but it helps.

I'm yet to find any established pre-modern philosophical system that does not stress the importance of forgiveness for moving forward in life. Letting a wound fester for beleiving that to heal them means we're condoning the other person's behaviour is not recovery, but refusing to let go by constantly re-wounding ourselves.

www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20150327/world/plane-crash-victims-father-i-dont-feel-anger.561634

[Reforming]

Is it essential to recovery? I don't think so but it helps.

I'm yet to find any established pre-modern philosophical system that does not stress the importance of forgiveness for moving forward in life. Letting a wound fester for beleiving that to heal them means we're condoning the other person's behaviour is not recovery, but refusing to let go by constantly re-wounding ourselves.

www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20150327/world/plane-crash-victims-father-i-dont-feel-anger.561634

Hi Boris,

I think forgiveness can be very empowering, but I think our modern emphasis on forgiveness is actually a relatively recent phenomenon rooted in late Christianity.

There are numerous pre christian religions and philosophies that view justice and forgiveness in much starker terms.

Most of us are familiar with Jesus's famous quote front the Torah "an eye for an eye, a tooth for tooth" in which he contested the tradition Judaic view of justice. Judaism for example that does not focus on forgiveness in the same way as christianity. In Jewish tradition you're not expect to forgive unless the transgressor has shown genuine remorse and they're also expected to ask for  forgiveness three times before you're forgive.

I don't know how much you've read about the classical world, but our modern understanding of forgiveness had far less currency back then. In Greek mythology and in their legal and ethical system justice was exacting and placed very little emphasis on forgiving the transgressor. That's also true and Ancient Persia and China

Before Forgiveness: The Origins of a Moral Idea (CUP) David Konstan argued that

"The modern concept of forgiveness, in the full or rich sense of the term, did not exist in classical antiquity. . . . What is more, it is not fully present in the Hebrew Bible, nor again in the New Testament or in the early Jewish and Christian commentaries on the Holy Scriptures; it would still be centuries -- many centuries -- before the idea of interpersonal forgiveness, and the set of values and attitudes that necessarily accompany and help to define it, would emerge (ix)."

Stoicism, recommended that "A wise man will disdain a slight on the part of a fool. . . . But this does not mean that he will be inclined to forgiveness, for that would be to ignore the claims of justice -- in effect, to condone the crime"

Most societies had found a way of quantifying or assessing the damage caused by an offence and levying recompense from the guilty and their family.

I think if you look into pre christian and ancient philosophy and religion you'll find that most of them did not stress the importance of forgiveness for moving forward in life.

Reforming