The "other man" wants to meet - pt 4

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

How can you best proceed, considering that you're in an unfavorable position?

You've surmised that your wife wants a guilt-free ending of your marriage. Now you need to discern what OM wants. In particular, how does he envision the kids' lives? What is his plan?

Maintaining the status quo no longer seems operational. How can you hold your center in a meeting and do some discovery about the plans in the works, as it seems certainly he's been thinking about the future.

OM doesn’t pay his own children much attention unless it gives him an excuse to see my W so I can’t imagine my children ping highly on his own care level. He likes to be out, he’s sociable, he likes being on committees... these aren’t things that are overly comparable with a W who has to stay at home to sit on the nest.

Notwendy, I don’t think paying attention to danger is foolish. I do agree that there is a higher power who will ultimately judge my W and OM, that’s great but of little solace after their childhood has been disrupted.

I don’t think skips binary options are a fair reflection of reality. Where was the option for me to challenge distorted thinking of other man, potentially leaving her to question his and her own distorted thinking and moral justification for their actions. Is this not the house of cards we somewhat to happen post full attachment anyway? Once she realises he is fallible? Once fantasy and reality collide? Is that abuse? Shattering someone’s delusions? Or maybe a better term is shining a light on the delusions or showing a mirror to their own twisted rationalisation.

She’s been sitting on this egg for over 2 years now... I’m hardly shattering something she has certainty about even if he does.

[Enabler]

How can you best proceed, considering that you're in an unfavorable position?

You've surmised that your wife wants a guilt-free ending of your marriage. Now you need to discern what OM wants. In particular, how does he envision the kids' lives? What is his plan?

Maintaining the status quo no longer seems operational. How can you hold your center in a meeting and do some discovery about the plans in the works, as it seems certainly he's been thinking about the future.

OM doesn’t pay his own children much attention unless it gives him an excuse to see my W so I can’t imagine my children ping highly on his own care level. He likes to be out, he’s sociable, he likes being on committees... these aren’t things that are overly comparable with a W who has to stay at home to sit on the nest.

Notwendy, I don’t think paying attention to danger is foolish. I do agree that there is a higher power who will ultimately judge my W and OM, that’s great but of little solace after their childhood has been disrupted.

I don’t think skips binary options are a fair reflection of reality. Where was the option for me to challenge distorted thinking of other man, potentially leaving her to question his and her own distorted thinking and moral justification for their actions. Is this not the house of cards we somewhat to happen post full attachment anyway? Once she realises he is fallible? Once fantasy and reality collide? Is that abuse? Shattering someone’s delusions? Or maybe a better term is shining a light on the delusions or showing a mirror to their own twisted rationalisation.

She’s been sitting on this egg for over 2 years now... I’m hardly shattering something she has certainty about even if he does.

[Cat Familiar]

So you shatter her delusions? Then what? What's your game plan?

At that point, she'll hate you even more and the chilliness you now experience from her will seem like the good ol days.

And how are you going to challenge the OM's "distorted thinking" when it all makes sense to him? He will conclude that you are a bully and your wife will agree.

Left to their own devices, what you hope for may well happen. Then you'll have no blame. And she might even wish to return.

But your idea of shattering will blowback on you.

[Notwendy]

Is it more disruptive to the children's childhood to not expose what your wife has done or to expose her to them ( and ending any innocence about their mother )and make it impossible for her to leave?

How much more dangerous is this situation to them, now that this has been going on for four years already?

From this, it seems that your wish to keep your wife married to you- no matter what is the outcome you want, and that this outcome is the goal, even if it means exposing their affair and making it impossible for her.

I am sorry you are hurting. They have done a terrible thing to you, but I don't know if exposing them  is going to make the situation batter.

[I Am Redeemed]

The thing about delusions is...they aren't rational, you cannot dispel a delusion by forcing someone to see reality. A delusion has roots that are deeply twisted in the mind of the disordered person, and the deluded person will cling to their delusion despite any and all evidence that it is not reality.

I don't think you will ever get your wife or OM to admit that they have carried on or are still engaged in an illicit affair. There will always be some type of magical thinking that makes what they do "not wrong"...terming it "special", "part of God's plan", whatever.

Spending your energy trying to figure out how to challenge one person's distorted thinking in the hopes that it will force another disordered person to see the distortion does not seem to be productive. In all honesty, I think it is just setting you up for disappointment at best and deepening an already severe emotional wound at worst.

I really am sorry this is happening, Enabler. But I think what you might hope for as far as dispelling delusions goes is not attainable.

[Fian]

Personally, I don't know that I would take the restraint role.  I would probably expose it to the church, and it would probably result in your wife divorcing you.  They want to operate in darkness, and the Bible says for us to shine light on darkness (Ephesians 5:11).

As for meeting him, he would ramble just as much in person as he does in email (probably more).  It would give him pay off (he probably loves the sound of his own voice, all the better if you are the audience), and you very little.  To be honest, I wouldn't worry so much about what he wants to get out of a meeting.  If you choose to meet, it is for what you want to get out of a meeting.  What you want is probably best handled via email.

[formflier]

Personally, I don't know that I would take the restraint role.  I would probably expose it to the church, and it would probably result in your wife divorcing you.  They want to operate in darkness, and the Bible says for us to shine light on darkness (Ephesians 5:11).

 

Well said!

Best,

FF

[AskingWhy]

I speak as one who married a divorced man and became a stepmother to a 10 year old, now in her late 30s. The children could not care less about whose fault this is. What adult did what to whom is completely irrelevant to them. They just want to know that their parents still love them and that they are going to be OK.

I am a SM to three adults and they all hate my guts simply because I am married to their F.  Their M left their F when they were all under the age of 5 and two in nappies.  S is drug addict and homeless; one D is likely uBPD and takes drugs; other D in marriage with two small children and her H is miserable.

Just last week, the D on drugs came over and started cleaning the house.  She did so while I was still in the room working, and continued even though I asked her to stop as I was still in the room.  She started snacking on sweets as she is a cannabis user.   For the record, D had a suicide attempt and was kicked out of the military on a general discharge, then immediately moved in to cohabit with one of the military instructors.  She served less than a year in the military and, thankfully for the taxpayers, gets no benefits.

I would advise OP to be there for the children, but not at the expense of a SO or spouse.  If you can't be there for a partner, it's best to stay single.  One has to make choices.  

Is it more disruptive to the children's childhood to not expose what your wife has done or to expose her to them ( and ending any innocence about their mother )and make it impossible for her to leave?

My H said nothing to his children as they were growing up.  His W left him for another man.  Now that the children are all adults, they know what their mother did.

For poetic justice, the man the M cheated with an later married cheated on her. 

[Enabler]

I think we discussed before that the Church has it's own eyes and they can (or can choose not to) see what they want to see. The affair is no great village secret, quite the opposite, and many players in the game have chosen to see what they want to see for their own reasons.

I'm not going to put it out there formally as I have zero credibility to do so and it inevitably back fire as many attempts to open eyes has. I have a long term relationship to think about as co-parent rather than attempting to score short lived victories.

God knows... and if he wants to do something about it, he's more than capable.

Enabler

[empath]

Enabler,

I understand the desire to shatter a spouse's delusions about another person who is creating emotional turmoil in our marriage. I've been there. I've had weird conversations with my h about the things that his pastor with serious npd traits was doing that were abusive to his congregation. The pastor always had an explanation which usually included some kind of victim stance. I tried to get h to see what was happening, but h was enthralled with this pastor. My efforts seemed to fuel the story that I was unsupportive of h. It wasn't until h observed a fellow clergyperson being abused that he saw the truth of what was happening.

These were the people who were going to help h get a divorce from me. I still don't know how they rationalized that one.

At the height of h's crazy, he talked to a L about divorce because he said he needed to "protect himself" from me. The reason that he didn't follow through was he didn't have $$$ to do it, and his "friends and family" who were going to help also wanted to control him.

The point is that it is very difficult to get someone who has delusions to understand "consensus reality" and it can be dangerous because it's distressing to that person. I've found boundaries to be helpful tools to keep me grounded in the truth and to remind h that the truth still exists regardless of the stories that he made up to explain away our marriage "issues."

As Cat said, shattering delusions will blowback on you.

[formflier]

God knows... and if he wants to do something about it, he's more than capable.

He is also more than capable of using reluctant people to do his bidding.  How often in reading Biblical stories are you sitting there going "why didn't this person do that (whatever he was resisting) in the first place"

Asked another way.  Does God usually do things all by himself or does he push humans to do things?

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

He is also more than capable of using reluctant people to do his bidding.  How often in reading Biblical stories are you sitting there going "why didn't this person do that (whatever he was resisting) in the first place"

Asked another way.  Does God usually do things all by himself or does he push humans to do things?

Best,

FF

https://storiesforpreaching.com/i-sent-you-a-rowboat/

Totally reminded me of this joke...We have to pay attention when things are placed in our paths.

GaGrl

[formflier]

I very much had that story in mind.

Also Leviticus 5.  (specifically the first verse, but read all around it to make sure it is in context)

I'm not aware of "guarantees" in the Bible about always being comfortable or freedom from people thinking you are an abuser or (fill in the blank)

Best,

FF

[empath]

God is also very capable of using intractable delusions to bring about his purposes.

I think many of us here have been accused of being abusive by our bpd spouses; it goes with the territory, especially when we don't go along with their plans.

[formflier]

In my case and I believe in other "successful" cases, the goal of the delusions was not "complied" with, so once they stopped "working"...they stopped. 

In your case, her delusions get your silence and she gets her alternate life.  So, I would expect delusions to go up, because they work for her.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

I don't think I'm important anymore in the role of delusions. The delusions have never come from me, nor fed by me and I don't even believe they are 'for me' anymore. OM feeds the delusions so they have their own fuel source. Had there not been another fuel source I think the delusions would have found a resting place and died along with a bunch of previous delusions... but, OM chucks fuel on them allowing her to keep going.

When you're wife thought you were having an affair, she was all alone in that delusion (I would guess), so when you no longer fed the suspicion with denial or even entertaining the conversation she was left with just herself to maintain those unsubstantiated thoughts. Now what would have happened if she had 1 or 2 friends who also claimed that they thought you were having an affair, what if one of them for some weird reason claimed they followed you to your imaginary girlfriends house and saw you with her... the delusion keeps going and it's being given fuel by the friend.  In a similar way, OM feeds her excuses and reasons why the delusion is okay, he enables her to reject the advice of the church, he's even able to enabler her to reject biblical teaching... it's not to say that she is passive in this process (from what I have read she is more passive than he is) but why fight a delusion which makes you feel good about yourself if someone is saying the delusion is totally true.

Enabler 

[formflier]

My wife consistently brought in others to share in her delusions friends, family, clergy, counselors.

Most dropped out after realizing the story changed. 

I refused to let the matter drop (no "just forgetting it") with clergy and that eventually resulted in the first time I ever heard someone use the term "paranoia" (clergy used it).  The basic scriptural theory that was used was should we operate in the light or darkness.

There were several iterations to how this all worked out, since we were all learning as we went.

At the core of it I didn't believe it wise to "drop" an unreconciled issue.  The light shows what it shows. 

There were certainly more than 1 or 2 of her friends that "bought into" her view, although likely no more than two at a time.  All eventually melted under "the light".  They could likely keep things together for one or two "stories" (perhaps similar to your episode of being followed), yet over time stories diverged which impeached all the stories.

Certainly I had incidents of my own bad behavior exposed.  I was fastidious in inviting "light" to verify that whatever it was I did was in the past and not repeated.  Over time it became obvious I would badly react (usually once) to some new crazy thing and then I would not repeat it.  It also became obvious that my wife repeated patterns.

Eventually clergy and I came to understand my role in "feeding" this and I stopped feeding it.  That's when things started to turn.  I learned about BPD a year or two later.

Last thought:  So fairly early on I responded to if you don't do X, I will tell Y that you did Z (threats) by "not rewarding threats".  There was quite a bit of discomfort when she followed through and said/did crazy things.

I generally had the right idea (to proceed with reality) but I wasn't consistent with it.  Once I became consistent, threats began to die out.

Best,

FF