Need some boundary help on H verbally shutting me down, please

[DreamFlyer99]

And to think at one time I believed I understood about boundaries! Ah to be young and foolish again... .

If I try to bring anything up about the 2 of us like "what could we do to learn better communication that doesn't make either person feel defensive?" I get The Shut Down: "Just Stop." I hate this, I readily admit, since it feels very authoritarian and not the least bit like a partnership. I have tended in the past to just walk away since if I don't he'll go into the RageMasterSupreme and roar at me for making everything something HE has to change and let me tell you while i'm at it all the things YOU do to make ME upset!

i'm better at dealing with the roaring since I've learned that defending the truth just leads to more roaring... . I don't always catch right away that I should "take a time out" and have often realized i'm still sitting there like a pup who just got yelled at, with my head down and my ears back... . but one step at a time, right?

The big question for me is how not to give him what he wants (to make me go away) since I feel that would be rewarding negative behavior, right? while still preserving my own needs to speak without getting roared at.

Thoughts? Please?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[briefcase]

Well, with boundaries you aren't really doing anything for him (although you having healthy boundaries is good for him too).  The best way to enforce boundaries is to allow the other person to simply feel the natural consequences of their behaviors.  People who yell and scream at others find themselves standing there alone pretty quick.  Maybe worry less if he's getting what he wants when you take a time out, just do it for you. 

[MammaMia]

Dreamflyer

Yup... . been there, done that.  My dswBPD told me recently during one of his rages that nobody likes me.  Nobody loves me.  Everyone thinks I am a terrible person.  Everyone hates me.  I am nobody.  I am not important.  I am toxic to him and everyone around me.  He does not want me in his life.  He hates me and never wants to talk to me again.

What can one possibly say to this kind of verbal assault?

He was looking for a fight and I did not give him one.  I said nothing.  Clearly he was projecting feelings about himself on to me. 

We talked about him and his unhappiness with life in general.  Then I left.  It took me 3 attempts to get out the door.  He was venting big time.

To make a long story short... . he called me the next day.  Like nothing had happened.  I have learned how this works and do not let it upset me.  It is part of the illness.

[DreamFlyer99]

Well, with boundaries you aren't really doing anything for him (although you having healthy boundaries is good for him too).  The best way to enforce boundaries is to allow the other person to simply feel the natural consequences of their behaviors.  People who yell and scream at others find themselves standing there alone pretty quick.  Maybe worry less if he's getting what he wants when you take a time out, just do it for you. 

I just think he'll get his 2 year old tantrum way by me leaving. Would it be bad for me to say "i'm going to keep bringing this up till you listen because it's important for us to be able to talk about these things." or something like that? And then leave for my own sanity?

Dreamflyer

He was looking for a fight and I did not give him one.  I said nothing.  Clearly he was projecting feelings about himself on to me. 

To make a long story short... . he called me the next day.  Like nothing had happened.  I have learned how this works and do not let it upset me.  It is part of the illness.

Yep, that "like nothing had happened" part is crazymaking. My H will usually say something like "and now you'll treat me different for 2 weeks!" which used to tap into my Guilt About Everything "gift" thus making me go "no it'll be fine." When lo and behold, things SHOULD be different because he's just been a gigantic behind to me.

So much still to learn... .

[MammaMia]

Dreamflyer

When your H tries to play the "guilt" game, I would suggest you not tell him things will be fine.  This is unconsciously condoning his behavior.  In times like this, silence speaks volumes.  Anything you say will only be fuel for the fire.

Important:   You do NOT have to make him feel better... . he needs to learn that unacceptable behavior has consequences AND that he is not the only one with feelings.  

I agree, it is fine to say that a topic is important and you will discuss it with him later when he has calmed down and is more receptive.  Then be sure to do it.

We all continue to learn how to deal with BPD.  Every day is a challenge.  This disorder is what it is, but at least we have each other, and there is great comfort in that.

We are so glad you are here, and we will do our best to help and support you.  

You are now part of the family.

[goldylamont]

i sometimes feel as if the manipulative aspects of disagreements aren't fully recognized. of course it's great to say that you could just leave or walk away if a pwBPD starts to get out of hand, but many times this is specifically what they want. walking away to defuse the situation isn't giving them consequences that at some later time they will process and think "perhaps i shouldn't rage so that she won't go away". i think often times they behave the way they do specifically to tell you forcefully--"shut the ef up and go now, i've won and furthermore your opinion isn't worth a damn to me". in this case leaving just emboldens them, now they know it works--but not really a big deal that they've "won", there's no winners here obviously. but for the nonBPD i feel being forced to shutup/grin-and-bear-it/be the "bigger person" = repression = emotional abuse which has long term affects. walking away to defuse things, while utterly necessary if your safety is at risk, can completely wreck you down the line when you can't express yourself.

in my situation, the most painful moments in my memory aren't from where she was raging, which i could later externalize as her issue and not mine. the most painful and frustrating was me never being able to express myself. every tactic was used to get me to shut up. to let her have her say and then to cut me off before i could express anything. no matter how calm or what my demeanor was my needing to discuss things were just portrayed as me being an instigator while she was already "so over it". as time went on i learned to control my words, my tone and posture and emotions. in a sense i feel i became better able to stay calm and communicate better. awesome, except i know at least some times this just pissed her off even more. and this is when i could start to see that the argument wasn't at all about communicating for her or about expressing her opinion about something, it was simply a way for her to be mean, or for her to try and prove that i was the one being abusive.

DreamFlyer99 what i can say is that i developed an acute sense of being grounded yet detached that allowed me to navigate during these arguments. i say grounded meaning present, aware and on your toes; detached meaning you're able to react less emotionally after realizing that a lot of the raging has a purpose. what if before your H's temper gets out of hand you could keep calm and composed and say "i truly don't want to make you upset, and if you are this is ok. but i'm not leaving, ok. i'm going to stay right here and if you like you can leave and i will understand and won't hold it against you." thing is if you do this you'd have to feel very safe and secure i wouldn't of course recommend doing this if you are in *any* way in danger ok? what i mean is, i had to find ways to stay calm, and then to call my ex out on her bluff. but this 'calling out' needed to be done in a calm way, b/c if not it would give them an excuse to call you some kind of abuser and change the subject.

again i want to say to be careful, being a woman with an angry man i want to make sure you are completely safe, first and foremost. in my situation, being a man with an angry woman i actually had the opposite issue. my ex started pulling this ptsd stint sometimes where she would act terrified like i was going to physically assault her or something. of course this worked on me many times, she'd cry lips trembling "just leave! i can't take it any more!" and i'd stuff my anger and leave b/c of course i would never want to frighten or provoke her on this level. i can't say she never had a real episode. but what i am telling you is that after listening to my inner voice i could see her whole frightened of me ptsd act as a fraud, as a way to punish me and get me to shut the ef up and leave without being able to express myself. a way for her to be the boss, take control; shut me down emotionally and move me out of my space physically. i explained in previous posts how i found out but feel i'm writing a lot so let me know if interested. but how i found out was to first recognize an inner voice telling me the truth of the situation. then i was able to stand my ground and not leave, as i was able to handle the situation calmly enough so she couldn't use me being an abuser or instigator as an excuse any more.

i'm so so sorry you had to hear your H say those words to you. even if you don't believe those words, and do *not* believe them DreamFlyer99 you are a gorgeous golden goddess!   but even if the words themselves don't impact you, the vile intent behind them hurts coming from someone you love so much. i truly wish you the best! if anything i've said before about staying calm and standing your ground interests you let me know and i'll try and explain more

[DreamFlyer99]

Dreamflyer

When your H tries to play the "guilt" game, I would suggest you not tell him things will be fine.  This is unconsciously condoning his behavior.  In times like this, silence speaks volumes.  Anything you say will only be fuel for the fire.

Important:   You do NOT have to make him feel better... . he needs to learn that unacceptable behavior has consequences AND that he is not the only one with feelings. 

I agree, it is fine to say that a topic is important and you will discuss it with him later when he has calmed down and is more receptive.  Then be sure to do it.

We all continue to learn how to deal with BPD.  Every day is a challenge.  This disorder is what it is, but at least we have each other, and there is great comfort in that.

We are so glad you are here, and we will do our best to help and support you. 

You are now part of the family.

THANK YOU, MammaMia! I so appreciate your warm welcome.

I was going to just copy the most important part of what you said into this reply, but it was ALL so good... . I am actually learning to stop my old soothing ways, but it's a heckuva process. I think the last "episode" we had was the first time I ever DIDN'T say "no, it'll be fine" or anything close to that. For this I thank my T who has helped me listen for that "inner voice" of which goldylamont speaks. I think that sort of response was just my confused way to survive so he'd let up, but slowly I learn what things actually "feed the need" for someone else to soothe him. My T says "he wants you to be his mother." (Well no WONDER i'm not getting any 'intimate' behavior from him!)

Thanks for verifying that things SHOULD INDEED be different after he's been a ginormous hiney to me.   And he so does not get that my feelings matter too, or that I even HAVE feelings to consider. That was such a surprise to realize after more than 30 years together, but then I didn't know myself that my feelings mattered. Let's just call me a "late bloomer" in the Mental Health department. LOL!

[DreamFlyer99]

i sometimes feel as if the manipulative aspects of disagreements aren't fully recognized. of course it's great to say that you could just leave or walk away if a pwBPD starts to get out of hand, but many times this is specifically what they want. walking away to defuse the situation isn't giving them consequences that at some later time they will process and think "perhaps i shouldn't rage so that she won't go away". i think often times they behave the way they do specifically to tell you forcefully--"shut the ef up and go now, i've won and furthermore your opinion isn't worth a damn to me". in this case leaving just emboldens them, now they know it works--but not really a big deal that they've "won", there's no winners here obviously. but for the nonBPD i feel being forced to shutup/grin-and-bear-it/be the "bigger person" = repression = emotional abuse which has long term affects. walking away to defuse things, while utterly necessary if your safety is at risk, can completely wreck you down the line when you can't express yourself.

the most painful and frustrating was me never being able to express myself. every tactic was used to get me to shut up. to let her have her say and then to cut me off before i could express anything

what if before your H's temper gets out of hand you could keep calm and composed and say "i truly don't want to make you upset, and if you are this is ok. but i'm not leaving, ok. i'm going to stay right here and if you like you can leave and i will understand and won't hold it against you." thing is if you do this you'd have to feel very safe and secure i wouldn't of course recommend doing this if you are in *any* way in danger ok? what i mean is, i had to find ways to stay calm, and then to call my ex out on her bluff. but this 'calling out' needed to be done in a calm way, b/c if not it would give them an excuse to call you some kind of abuser and change the subject.

again i want to say to be careful, being a woman with an angry man i want to make sure you are completely safe, first and foremost.

i'm so so sorry you had to hear your H say those words to you. even if you don't believe those words, and do *not* believe them DreamFlyer99 you are a gorgeous golden goddess!   but even if the words themselves don't impact you, the vile intent behind them hurts coming from someone you love so much. i truly wish you the best! if anything i've said before about staying calm and standing your ground interests you let me know and i'll try and explain more

GOLDYLAMONT!

EXACTLY! I didn't copy all of your post for obvious reasons,  but OH MY GOODNESS that's exactly what I was feeling! Thank you for putting it into words and for being so supportive! (How DID you know i'm a "gorgeous golden goddess"? LOL)

My H generally isn't a physically endangering person, he was last year when his psychiatrist suggested they "see what you look like withOUT meds." (I still maintain any psych who says that must have an extra room in their own stinking house to let him stay!) And because I was so taken aback by his more threatening stance because I did find it scary, when we talked about it months later I didn't back down when he kept saying "oh you weren't scared, I wasn't scary" I just said "Yes, I was very afraid. You looked so angry and you were standing between me and the door. I was freaked out." No matter how many times he asked I answered the same. He's commented that he knows he was really over the edge and out of control during those months. Plus our daughter told him that I was wondering if it was even safe to STAY with him. So he does sometimes take in information, which is good. And he's medicated for his depression now too, which is excellent.

SO much of what you said makes such perfect sense to me, like it was a place my brain was trying to get to but just couldn't quite find the path. I absolutely feel like H's goal is to shut me down as quickly as possible (obviously he feels threatened no matter how calmly I try to express things) by reacting with his Litany he keeps close at hand of the million ways I have hurt him (and he's very creative when it comes to this Litany.)

I do feel in his case that the manipulation isn't necessarily purposeful, like premeditated, but is the response of a hurt and angry 2 year old. Still not appropriate, still hateful to the recipient. And as much as I am injured by these words, well, let's just say I've heard worse. And forgiveness is another whole subject for me to struggle with, just for my own mental health... .

Now , your wife on the other hand? WOW. You just put my brother's wife in a whole new perspective. I always thought she was a little "different" but now i'm pretty sure you were married to her clone!

THIS sentence of yours directly hits the heart of the matter for me:

       "the most painful and frustrating was me never being able to express myself"

AARRGH! This, plus my delightful childhood has set me up for the fibromyalgia I now deal with.

I sort of understand your "grounded but detached" and please feel free to share away!

[bruceli]

And to think at one time I believed I understood about boundaries! Ah to be young and foolish again... .

If I try to bring anything up about the 2 of us like "what could we do to learn better communication that doesn't make either person feel defensive?" I get The Shut Down: "Just Stop." I hate this, I readily admit, since it feels very authoritarian and not the least bit like a partnership. I have tended in the past to just walk away since if I don't he'll go into the RageMasterSupreme and roar at me for making everything something HE has to change and let me tell you while i'm at it all the things YOU do to make ME upset!

i'm better at dealing with the roaring since I've learned that defending the truth just leads to more roaring... . I don't always catch right away that I should "take a time out" and have often realized i'm still sitting there like a pup who just got yelled at, with my head down and my ears back... . but one step at a time, right?

The big question for me is how not to give him what he wants (to make me go away) since I feel that would be rewarding negative behavior, right? while still preserving my own needs to speak without getting roared at.

Thoughts? Please?

DW used to try and go this route too with me and you are right.  That's what they want, to make you go away or in the case of DW tell just go ahead and do what you want to do because I don't want to listen/argue.  I however would not because I knew that is just what she wanted me to do.  Things have calmed down since I have put up my boundries and have been holding her accountable to her behaviors and words.  Still alot of flack but getting better.  The no one likes a door mat addage seems to be working... .

[goldylamont]

DF99 thank you for the kind words i know how hard and confusing it is being in these situations. makes me feel good that i could connect like that. my thoughts below:

I do feel in his case that the manipulation isn't necessarily purposeful, like premeditated, but is the response of a hurt and angry 2 year old. Still not appropriate, still hateful to the recipient. And as much as I am injured by these words, well, let's just say I've heard worse. And forgiveness is another whole subject for me to struggle with, just for my own mental health... .

DF99 i tend to see things different from some others regarding rages and manipulation. and this awareness came from my own personal experiments that gave me the answers i needed (i'll post more later regarding this). first principal to understand is the BPD's need/want to punish you, to consciously punish you and seek revenge on you, projecting their hate and rage reaction from early trauma onto you, their new and meaty target. yes, i would say that this revenge and punishment could very well be on "auto-pilot", but i would not go so far as to say it is done unconsciously or by accident on their part. if a baby cries and you give him a cookie, then cries again and you give him another, pretty soon he'll be so trained and crafty at crying because he knows he gets what he wants. in fact, the crying will be so practiced that he won't have to think much at all about it, he can cry on cue for that cookie. but because he's so learned in crying so that he doesn't have to think about it doesn't mean he's not conscious of what he's doing. he *knows* he wants that damn cookie--giveit! 

a pwBPD wants to punish you. wants to seek revenge on you for you slighting them (even if they made it up in their mind). they are fully aware of this and they are experts at doing it--because they are such astute students and rehearse aplenty the games of manipulation. it's a way of life for them, a way of being.

i would recommend viewing all heated disagreements with your H as conscious attempts on his part to manipulate you. is he really conscious of it? don't bother questioning it in the moment, if you are incorrect you can recalibrate later (you have this kind of ability/awareness of self that a pwBPD lacks). so for the purpose of experimenting and raising your own awareness try first determining the point where any emotional poison starts flowing from him. then keep your composure, remain calm and assume conscious manipulation on his part. i think you will start to see things in a totally different light. like i said, later on you can reevaluate to see if you were a bit off, in the moment just assume it's so. a pwBPD doesn't want a cookie in these moments, they seek to punish you, and they have trained to know just how.

I sort of understand your "grounded but detached" and please feel free to share away!

Grounded/Grounding -- i get this from Karla McLaren's book. it's soo good:

GETTING GROUNDED

The call to be here now, or to be in the present moment, comes from many enlightenment traditions, though there are many definitions of what that call means. For me, being here now means that I am fully aware and focused in the present moment, neither dissociated nor distracted. When I am fully aware, I don’t require avoidance behaviors, addictions, excessive practices of any kind, or perfection; rather, I become able to deal with life as it is because I am connected to myself and my surroundings.

When I examine the idea of being here now through a quaternal lens, I see that each of us already owns something that can only be here now: our bodies. Our minds and spirits can be just about anywhere, while our emotions are often ignored or trapped in the amber of unexamined issues, but our bodies can only be here now. Our bodies cannot move backward into the past, and they cannot run into the future; our bodies can only live in the present moment. Therefore, if we can center our attention in our bodies, we’ll be here now. It’s as simple as that.

McLaren, Karla (2010-06-01). The Language of Emotions (pp. 127-128).

there's a chapter on the exercise to actually ground yourself, and basically it boils down to focusing on your body, imagining a strong cord of energy running from your core straight into the earth. if you breath normally and imagine this energy pushing further and further down, like a root, all the way until you can feel it reach the center of the earth. this is grounding.

i couldn't actually visualize this chord so well during the heat of the argument, but practicing this technique beforehand allowed me to be there, in the now, during arguments. to know what my body was feeling and to know just what to do, because i was calm and accepting. my body was grounded, i was still emotional! yes, but i wasn't a slave to my emotions, i could just monitor them. i don't like the term detached so much in these situations b/c you don't want to be off in lala land imagining your off on some beautiful beach away from the drama. detaching--this coping mechanism can be helpful during trauma but we want to avoid it in this situation--we want to be fully aware, accepting, strong, grounded.

i just thought of this, but try picking your favorite predatory animal, like a snow leopard, panther or wolf. and imagine being this animal who just picked up the fresh scent of it's next meal. aware, unafraid, watchful, grounded, listening, in the moment, about to get it's prize. try to reach this place in the heat of an argument. the prize will be what you learn

[goldylamont]

a story from a previous post where i was grounded and called out my ex's manipulations for what they were. she knew what she was doing. took me a few times being made a fool to figure it out though:

there's only one time i can think of where i figured out what my ex was up to during an argument, and i have to say that i don't believe for a second what she was doing was projection or her really thinking she was the victim, she was just being plain evil and manipulative (this is the way i see it, you decide). much of the worst stuff for me happened after we broke up but still lived together. after a couple of weeks breaking up she (of course) started seeing another guy, even though i've told her this hurts and i don't want to hear about it she's going on and on and on while i'm washing dishes telling me how great he is, how she can trust him, he's great, blahblahblah, all lies, which i knew, but still hurtful. i was calm and told her to leave me alone but of course she doesn't stop until i reacted, even a little bit (i never exploded or anything), then she uses my reaction to berate me more.

but here's the clincher, and something i'm proud of myself for--at least 3 or 4 times in the previous year my exBPDgf would drop into this frantic/terrified mood, bottom lip trembling, body shaking, acting as if she were scared i were going to hurt her, then she'd beg me to leave "just leave! [crying] please, just stop!". and i would. i would never be able to stick up for myself or say my viewpoint b/c i never wanted to cross that line (and i thought she was dealing with some ptsd? issues). but something inside me told me this was fake. she came into my space, showing off about her new b/f and as soon as i speak up about it here comes the trembling and the "just leave... .       pleeease!". first thing i did was calmed completely down. instinctually i didn't want to give her an excuse to be afraid. second thing i did was calmly walk around her so that she was closer to the door than me and could leave if she wanted to (we had a small kitchen). then i calmly said something like "you're not afraid of me, you're faking it, if you're really scared then you can get the hell out of the kitchen. i was washing dishes and i'm not going to leave. if you're really scared, then you get out." she stayed her ass right there and finished making her coffee or whatever and i went back to the dishes. she went from her faux panic attic to being quietly hateful in a split second. see, i knew she didn't want to be told to do anything by me, least of all to leave the kitchen, that was her job to do to me.

it was unbelievable and it still hurts to know that my ex was consciously acting terrified of me, faking ptsd to control me, to stop me from expressing any rebuttal to her abuse. i think about all the times where she used this tactic against me and how i was forced to hold things in, thinking i had to b/c she was afraid. she wasn't afraid she was laughing at me. i'm saying all this for a couple of reasons--yes waverider i think it's an excellent point you make about BPD'er being angry when you take their victim role, but never put it past them that not only are they angry but consciously manipulating you when they are berating. the second reason is that, during this moment of clarity, i realized that if i were able to stay calm and not give her an excuse i could access my own instincts to challenge what i knew to be true about the situation.

i don't so much like the term 'detachment' in this regard as i feel in these situations you should not detach, rather i think it's important to be fully grounded, and present/surefooted/at attention, and most important calm yourself as best you can to parse through what is happening to you.

also i think while it's important to try and understand things from their point of view, at the end of the day you have to judge people by their actions. i know that much of the behavior of my ex had to do a lot with unconscious issues she had (victim/perpetrator/ptsd/etc), but even in the heat of the moment i realized at this point that sometimes people are just being cruel b/c they want to. look at what they are doing, judge that, it's impossible to know what someone else really feels

[DreamFlyer99]

And to think at one time I believed I understood about boundaries! Ah to be young and foolish again... .

The big question for me is how not to give him what he wants (to make me go away) since I feel that would be rewarding negative behavior, right? while still preserving my own needs to speak without getting roared at.

Thoughts? Please?

DW used to try and go this route too with me and you are right.  That's what they want, to make you go away or in the case of DW tell just go ahead and do what you want to do because I don't want to listen/argue.  I however would not because I knew that is just what she wanted me to do.  Things have calmed down since I have put up my boundries and have been holding her accountable to her behaviors and words.  Still alot of flack but getting better.   The no one likes a door mat addage seems to be working... .

Bruceli, yet another place where our BPD's coincide... . I think you're right, i'm going to need to work on consistent boundaries around this problem. But please explain what you mean by "holding her accountable to her behaviors and words." i'm not sure I understand that--one thing my H is really really good at is words and promises, and bless me, ever slow to learn, it's taken me 30 odd years and a therapist to figure that out. I always believed him when he explained away why nothing in our house is finished: "this or that happened" "I've been really tired" etc etc etc. Because this or that DID happen, and he HAS been really tired... . but nothing is finished, and it's all about him and not about the rest of the family. So I don't quite understand the "holding accountable" bit but it sounds like something I should.

I've just been avoiding most conversation about any of the zillion hot topics that send him over the edge, but I know I can't do that forever. It's soul killing.

Still learning, still not having fun... .

[DreamFlyer99]

DF99 thank you for the kind words i know how hard and confusing it is being in these situations. makes me feel good that i could connect like that. my thoughts below:

I do feel in his case that the manipulation isn't necessarily purposeful, like premeditated, but is the response of a hurt and angry 2 year old. Still not appropriate, still hateful to the recipient. And as much as I am injured by these words, well, let's just say I've heard worse. And forgiveness is another whole subject for me to struggle with, just for my own mental health... .

DF99 i tend to see things different from some others regarding rages and manipulation. and this awareness came from my own personal experiments that gave me the answers i needed (i'll post more later regarding this). first principal to understand is the BPD's need/want to punish you, to consciously punish you and seek revenge on you, projecting their hate and rage reaction from early trauma onto you, their new and meaty target.

"New and meaty target"? HEY I thought I was a golden goddess or some such thing! (har har.)

DF99 thank you for the kind words i know how hard and confusing it is being in these situations. makes me feel good that i could connect like that. my thoughts below:

I do feel in his case that the manipulation isn't necessarily purposeful, like premeditated, but is the response of a hurt and angry 2 year old. Still not appropriate, still hateful to the recipient. And as much as I am injured by these words, well, let's just say I've heard worse. And forgiveness is another whole subject for me to struggle with, just for my own mental health... .

yes, i would say that this revenge and punishment could very well be on "auto-pilot", but i would not go so far as to say it is done unconsciously or by accident on their part. if a baby cries and you give him a cookie, then cries again and you give him another, pretty soon he'll be so trained and crafty at crying because he knows he gets what he wants.

a pwBPD wants to punish you. wants to seek revenge on you for you slighting them (even if they made it up in their mind). they are fully aware of this and they are experts at doing it--because they are such astute students and rehearse aplenty the games of manipulation. it's a way of life for them, a way of being.

i would recommend viewing all heated disagreements with your H as conscious attempts on his part to manipulate you. is he really conscious of it? don't bother questioning it in the moment, if you are incorrect you can recalibrate later (you have this kind of ability/awareness of self that a pwBPD lacks). so for the purpose of experimenting and raising your own awareness try first determining the point where any emotional poison starts flowing from him. then keep your composure, remain calm and assume conscious manipulation on his part. i think you will start to see things in a totally different light. like i said, later on you can reevaluate to see if you were a bit off, in the moment just assume it's so. a pwBPD doesn't want a cookie in these moments, they seek to punish you, and they have trained to know just how.

I totally get the "emotional poison" aspect, and i'm learning to recognize when that starts. I have found that if I try to present whatever I want to talk about as being "about US" he doesn't feel quite as attacked, but he still gets defensive since he so badly doesn't want to be at fault. The weird thing is that when he hits that stride of taking off into WonderBPDLand he stops looking at me and is closed up into his own head and reacting out of old hurt or whatever. One time in a moment of clarity he said "I don't know why I get like that, but it occurs to me that my mother used to talk to us and to dad that way." A small small moment of seeing himself.

My mother was likely BPD too from what I've read, and even when I was in my 20s I sensed a pain behind the mask she'd put on. She was meaner sometimes than a wasp, and could charm many a person other times, but there was the occasional glimpse of the sad girl behind the curtain. My H seems much the same way, and I don't think I'm off on this. I may have been drawn by some unrecognized similarity, but whether or not he intends to be an ___ doesn't really matter, he doesn't get to treat me like that any more. I really do see a sad little boy in him who needs to grow the hell up, but that's what it is.

I know there are types of BPD people, higher functioning, lower functioning, etc etc, including all the overlapping goodies like NPD and the histrionic stuff. The histrionic bit is what I saw in my brother's wife that sounds so much like yours, the using of their bodies and their eyes and their womanly fragility... . they lived with us for a brief few weeks that seemed like months and months and months! Seriously, that stuff put me in a time warp, especially when she was using on MY H. And yet, behind all that insanity was a little girl who'd been traumatized, but needed to grow the hell up.

Same for me--the trauma from my childhood caused me PTSD that I didn't realize I had, it was in explaining what had happened to my T that I found out. I tell ya, when it's real you can't just turn it off!

but our bodies can only be here now. Our bodies cannot move backward into the past, and they cannot run into the future; our bodies can only live in the present moment. Therefore, if we can center our attention in our bodies, we’ll be here now. It’s as simple as that.

i just thought of this, but try picking your favorite predatory animal, like a snow leopard, panther or wolf. and imagine being this animal who just picked up the fresh scent of it's next meal. aware, unafraid, watchful, grounded, listening, in the moment, about to get it's prize. try to reach this place in the heat of an argument. the prize will be what you learn

I love that bit about "our bodies can only be here and now." Now that you've explained more, I realize this is something my T has worked on with me, "mindfulness" is one of the names for it. And I listen to recorded affirmations and guided imagery that help a lot with that "find your breath" idea. It's really powerful. That's been a process over the past 5 years since I took a Chronic Pain Management class for my Fibromyalgia, they started teaching us there and it backed up the things my T had already been teaching me but I didn't have a name for. That class used some yoga to teach us the feeling of groundedness--very cool, very helpful! It looks like I've learned bits of this in different situations but now I need to learn to put it into practice in avoiding conflict with my H. I think I started to do that the last time I tried to bring something up about learning to communicate, but I got caught with that deer in the headlights thing of "okay i'm trying to be calm and validating and I don't know what to do now that he's started trying to chase me away!" WHY did it never occur to me that I could just as easily say "I'll understand if you're too uncomfortable and need to leave" putting that in his hands instead? I need to try to implement that.

I think what ends up being the bottom line in the "is he consciously/subconsciously trying to be mean to me" issue is that, fine, so I have sympathy for his hard childhood and that he's actually a sad little boy at some points, but the thing is, I need to use the same tools and boundaries either way to keep mySELF safe. It can't be all about him any more, I need some peace as well.

And now I want a cookie, but i'm afraid your favorite predatory animal will eat it.   i'm really more of a chipmunk... .

Thanks for the thoughtful input!

[DreamFlyer99]

Sorry goldylamont, I did something weird there and the whole thing looks like a quote... .

[goldylamont]

DreamFlyer99, now you are teaching me! i haven't heard of the histrionic stuff i will definitely look into it thanks for that.

and you are correct that it doesn't really matter whether he's conscious of his actions, what matters more is how they affect you. i feel like looking at situations from this perspective though can perhaps shed some light, open our awareness to what's going on. there's plenty of times i'm sure i had disagreements with my ex where although she was foul, i don't think she was consciously trying to manipulate. but the cutting me off from the conversation--i feel like that was a purposeful/conscious tactic to punish me (at least in my case).

another time i caught her purposeful manipulation was when i figured out that she was purposefully rekindling arguments. the more understanding and respectful i would become the more she would get passive aggressive, say cruel things and drag the argument out. much of the time i would want to express myself, but other times i truly wanted to avoid conflict, i would let her know it's best we don't talk more so that we don't say hurtful things... . let's give each other a break until we can be more respectful and constructive. but she'd find a way to push on, trying to get me to blow up. until one day i asked her why she was carrying around her iphone--it was my calm grounded state that finally cued me into the fact that she was recording our arguments on her phone. and had been recording me unbeknownst to me how many times? so, when i didn't blow up and become the evil abuser she so needed me to be, she kept pushing and pushing and pushing, so that she could record me being out of control, listen to it later and build up more hate for me i guess. to my knowledge i don't think she got anything worthy. when i confronted her she decided to play me stuff she'd recorded of me from days ago saying how horrible i was. i can honestly say that i was **proud** of what i heard! i mean, i was angry in the recordings, maybe let out a curse word here or there but no name calling or anything too vile. the whole situation was ridiculous. but i guess what i'm saying is that i had to be really really aware of my body and in tune with my gut instinct... . i don't know how the hell i suddenly knew she was recording me, an inner voice told me during that one argument b/c it just didn't feel right. why was she still pushing my buttons--because of that damn phone!  it doesn't get much more conscious than that. 

it doesn't sound like your H is recording you or anything, but i did want to share some valuable insights that i learned because i was able to stay grounded and trust what my gut was telling me in the heat of the moment   

and now i'm off to learn about histrionics!

and, you are the great golden goddess!

[Scout99]

DreamFlyer99, now you are teaching me! i haven't heard of the histrionic stuff i will definitely look into it thanks for that.

and you are correct that it doesn't really matter whether he's conscious of his actions, what matters more is how they affect you. i feel like looking at situations from this perspective though can perhaps shed some light, open our awareness to what's going on. there's plenty of times i'm sure i had disagreements with my ex where although she was foul, i don't think she was consciously trying to manipulate. but the cutting me off from the conversation--i feel like that was a purposeful/conscious tactic to punish me (at least in my case).

I am just a newbie here at this forum and have only lived a year in a relationship with a man with BPD, (undiagnosed, but positively so). I have however lived in a much longer relationship with a man with narcissistic personality disorder. And the behavior you are describing with instigating conflict with the sole purpose to cause pain fits that bill to a par!

I think sometimes, at least in my country the tendency is to diagnose women with BPD and men with NPD sometimes clouds the clearer view... . In essence I think traits of both very often exists side by side within the realm of on persons personality disorder... . And my guess would be that strong traits of either narcissism or perhaps even histrionism might be present in your ex girlfriend.

I bring this up because I can notice some significant differences both in my ex NPD compared to my present BPD man when it comes just to this... . Where the malice intent was all the more present in my NPD and more of a guilt-ridden flight mode is present in my present BPDbf. He can sound just as mean in the moment, but remorse and guilt always follows and the fear of loosing me shines through. My ex NPD truly wanted to hurt me, tear me down, whereas my BPD wants the conflict to just stop, because he feels overwhelmed... .

I too usually work through a mindfulness mode... . staying calm, aware and grounded and weighing my words carefully... . I learned it during the relationship with my N, so it comes somewhat natural now with my BPD. And I think that is what makes it possible for me now to see the difference... .

I really like your posts on grounding and about remaining calm and collected! And also zoo recognize the agonizing feeling of never having the right to stress out my view on things and always the feeling of being in the loosing end of the rope... . Especially with my Nbf... . It is much easier to get through to my BPDbf, at least when he is in a calm mode... .

Anyway you write really thoughtful and interesting posts! They make me think a lot! So Thank You!

scout99

[waverider]

When it comes to boundary time, I cut out the "we need to/should do" co operative suggestions. Boundaries are about me, and what I am going to do about it. If I leave it is because that is what I want to do. I dont care if that is what my partner wanted me to do or not, their wishes are irrelevant and it is not a contest, nor an attempt to teach them a lesson. It is simply to ensure that I am not subject to the consequences of whatever the behavior is. She can sit there and smugly think good riddance, I wont care and she will know it.

I have found that taking the "contest" out of it has taken the point out of it for her, as the contest is what they thrive on. As a result my boundaries are rarely high conflict anymore and I just subtly impose them where necessary and there are few extinction burst tantrums anymore, at least not much more than regular folks.

[123Phoebe]

She can sit there and smugly think good riddance, I wont care and she will know it.

I have found that taking the "contest" out of it has taken the point out of it for her, as the contest is what they thrive on.

Yep.

The way I look at it is, 'This (whatever it is that's not my value, makes me feel uncomfortable; I'm going to back way off' (my boundary).

The pwBPD in my life, responds quite well to this.  It's something he understands the need of, s p a c e.  And comes back around quite quickly.

[bruceli]

And to think at one time I believed I understood about boundaries! Ah to be young and foolish again... .

The big question for me is how not to give him what he wants (to make me go away) since I feel that would be rewarding negative behavior, right? while still preserving my own needs to speak without getting roared at.

Thoughts? Please?

DW used to try and go this route too with me and you are right.  That's what they want, to make you go away or in the case of DW tell just go ahead and do what you want to do because I don't want to listen/argue.  I however would not because I knew that is just what she wanted me to do.  Things have calmed down since I have put up my boundries and have been holding her accountable to her behaviors and words.  Still alot of flack but getting better.   The no one likes a door mat addage seems to be working... .

Bruceli, yet another place where our BPD's coincide... . I think you're right, i'm going to need to work on consistent boundaries around this problem. But please explain what you mean by "holding her accountable to her behaviors and words." i'm not sure I understand that--one thing my H is really really good at is words and promises, and bless me, ever slow to learn, it's taken me 30 odd years and a therapist to figure that out. I always believed him when he explained away why nothing in our house is finished: "this or that happened" "I've been really tired" etc etc etc. Because this or that DID happen, and he HAS been really tired... . but nothing is finished, and it's all about him and not about the rest of the family. So I don't quite understand the "holding accountable" bit but it sounds like something I should.

I've just been avoiding most conversation about any of the zillion hot topics that send him over the edge, but I know I can't do that forever. It's soul killing.

Still learning, still not having fun... .

Instead validating her feelings by telling her what she wants to hear... . I have been validating but "slipping in" that the feelings that she is having are due to her PD.  Trick here is not directly saying so. 

As I have mentioned in previous post.  DW is aware of her PD but has not "fully" come to terms with it.  Hence forth why I believe she is so forth comming with her statements like I know what I do to you and sorry, sucks to be you doesn't it. 

Example... . when DW says "I don't love you"... . This is her projection that is you can't possibly love me due to the fact that I am so screwed up and unlovable... . My reply now is... . I understand how you feel... . why take a chance on loving me when people in your past who should have loved you unconditionally ( e.g. mom, dad, ex's) hurt you so badly before. 

First time I threw that one out there I fully expected WW3, but to my surprise she just looked at me for awhile and said nothing... . Of course after thinking it through for awhile she said that I was totally wrong and it was me.  Once again the I can not be wrong reply, but then a cuple of hours later she will say in her PD abck handed way... . " you think you are so smart don't you!"  After while I had come to learn that that is her way of saying thank you for understanding... . De-Coded PD speak... .

[goldylamont]

Example... . when DW says "I don't love you"... . This is her projection that is you can't possibly love me due to the fact that I am so screwed up and unlovable... . My reply now is... . I understand how you feel... . why take a chance on loving me when people in your past who should have loved you unconditionally ( e.g. mom, dad, ex's) hurt you so badly before... .

wow bruceli, that is GAME! who are you? Billy D Williams? Obi Wan Kenobe? That's a Jedi move there, wish i had that one in my tool belt before  It's honest, diffusing, compassionate, validating and not fake in any way

i feel like this in this thread i've been trying to share my experiences not with boundaries, or ending an argument. which takes practice and grounding also. what i was trying to address is the even trickier art of trying to stay in the conversation, because you have something to say. it's one thing to peacefully shut down an argument and take your own space. but it really took some mental kung fu for me to deal with things when my ex would shut things down and use her "condition" to end the conversation, whilst claiming i was the one out of control and wanting to argue, when i just wanted respect and to talk. so this is why i mention the grounding techniques and my experiences to address the issue of the nonBPD not needing to put up boundaries to stop anything, but to use boundaries to stay calm and grounded so that they could keep their partner there and express what they so much need to.

and Scout99--thanks so much for sharing! Yes your comments on NPD also ring a bell for me. Do you know that my ex accusing me of being a Narcissist is what brought me to seek and find out about personality disorders and find out about BPD? Crazy eh, when we broke up she tells me i'm a Narcissist, full gaslight mode. i immediately checked in with several friends and asked them if i were selfish, i'm super confident and ambitious at times and i thought (stupidly) "maybe she's onto something"? several friends saved me and told me they thought i was one of the more caring, stable and sharing people they knew (i didn't mention why i was asking them, but this is what they told me). it wasn't until a full year later, until i fully grasped the concept that the emotional poison my ex would sling on me was actually what she was guilty of that this old argument popped up where she said i was a crazy NPD. so i literally went to google and typed in "is my ex girlfriend a narcissist?", and soon found out about BPD which i had never heard of before.

it's funny because in my case, i feel like a pwBPD is like a lazy pwNPD  i'd call my exBPD a part-time NPD.  i still think mostly just BPD though, even when i searched on google NPD didn't seem to fit i just was throwing a hail mary out there. but when that hater phase hit, it was *all* about her, and *all* about revenge/punishment, so with her i feel like she was a BPD tamale with a little NPD hot pepper hidden inside--you could eat the whole thing and be ok, but that one bite was HOT! 

and, still got to do my homework on histrionics. thanks for sharing

[waverider]

Instead validating her feelings by telling her what she wants to hear... . I have been validating but "slipping in" that the feelings that she is having are due to her PD. 

I do this too, but my partner now has fully accepted she has BPD and will now even ask me if this thought or action is typically BPD. I do tend to link various actions to components eg black and white thinking. But you have to be diplomatic and it is also a matter of what level of awareness they have of having a problem or even BPD. Definately only to be brought up in more grounded moments not in a crisis time.

Care has to be taken not to give too much information or BPD can be used as an excuse to do absolve responsibility... . ie "not my fault, I have BPD"

[MammaMia]

For those of you who have loved ones who accept their diagnosis of BPD, I congratulate you.  However, many pwBPD refuse to seek treatment and/or even acknowledge the disorder when diagnosed.  They firmly believe everyone else is

mentally ill and they are innocent victims of their craziness. 

This complicates the entire process of communication  tremendously, and it provides pwBPD the protection of believing they are "normal".

This is very, very difficult.

[123Phoebe]

i feel like this in this thread i've been trying to share my experiences not with boundaries, or ending an argument. which takes practice and grounding also. what i was trying to address is the even trickier art of trying to stay in the conversation, because you have something to say. it's one thing to peacefully shut down an argument and take your own space. but it really took some mental kung fu for me to deal with things when my ex would shut things down and use her "condition" to end the conversation, whilst claiming i was the one out of control and wanting to argue, when i just wanted respect and to talk. so this is why i mention the grounding techniques and my experiences to address the issue of the nonBPD not needing to put up boundaries to stop anything, but to use boundaries to stay calm and grounded so that they could keep their partner there and express what they so much need to.

Who's expressing what and about whom?

It sounds like this might be stepping into therapist territory a little.


From my understanding, boundaries are for us, they're absolutely ours.  No matter how calm and grounded I am, it doesn't mean a hill of beans if my pwBPD is dysregulating and could even come off as condescending and invalidating if I try and keep him there to get my point across all calmly, adding more fuel to the fire already burning within him.  :)ysregulation is part of PUSH mode.  He pushes, I go away.  :)oesn't even have to be physically removing myself; it can be a mental detachment if we're out somewhere-- because I'm not going to walk down that pathway of his.  I'll stick with my own.  I've found that doing this is a form of validation for him; that I hear what he is saying = 'I'm freaking confused and need space to figure this out!'

How can I argue with that?  I'm pretty much feeling the same way.

When someone is dysregulating, emotionally stomping all over the place, sometimes it's best to move out of the way until the situation is more stable, for everyone involved.  It takes practice and patience to remove ourselves from their 'moment' to get in touch with ourselves, while creating healthy space for them to self soothe and come down from whatever horse they're riding.

There's not a thing I have to say that can't wait until a better time.  And he's much more receptive to hearing what I have to say when he's had the chance to feel and process his own emotions and sometimes the consequences of his behavior.

A lot of the time I haven't had to say a word, because he's learned from butting up against my boundary that I can and will take care of myself, over hanging around for   :'( .  I'm better able to nip things in the bud now before they become big old deal breakers

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em

Know when to walk away and know when to run

You never count your money, when you're sittin' at the table

There'll be time enough for countin', when the dealing's done

I  Kenny Rogers

 

[waverider]

For those of you who have loved ones who accept their diagnosis of BPD, I congratulate you.  However, many pwBPD refuse to seek treatment and/or even acknowledge the disorder when diagnosed.  They firmly believe everyone else is

mentally ill and they are innocent victims of their craziness. 

This complicates the entire process of communication  tremendously, and it provides pwBPD the protection of believing they are "normal".

This is very, very difficult.

My partner went through a long period of blocking the diagnosis, even though she has accepted having psychiatric problems all her life. One day, well after I knew about it and was active here, she just announced this is what she had. Then immediately went on a cycle of demanding appropriate therapy and ODing when she could not get it immediately, then when T was lined up she just didn't go. The transition from denial to acceptance was far from smooth.

[DreamFlyer99]

Okay, wow! there are a lot more things to think about--i'm going to try to pull my thoughts and questions together for all these responses. There are too many things for me to quote correctly, so I think i'll just count on everyone having read the other posts, okay?

goldylamont:

I think the main things i'm pulling from what you say are that by knowing and trusting yourself and your instincts (which I think matches up with being "grounded" you were able to "hear" what was going on with the ex more clearly and see where she was going with her actions. The extra valuable part of that for me reminds me of my T telling me that "you have good instincts, you just don't trust them." i'm learning to trust them finally after years of struggling with the "truth" both my mother and H have put on me in their projecting ways. My mother likely had uNPD traits and definitely uBPD traits, and I think the vulnerability I saw behind the scenes in her might have been because over the years she may have had some tiny realizations that her blaming things on everyone else didn't quite ring true, but she was one who "didn't need counseling." (Okay, but all your children sure did! LOL)

So my biggest takeaways from you are: be open to and aware of what is going on in the interchange and look for patterns, and then trust my instincts on them, and I might just learn something! And remain conscious of my responses. (Why's it gotta be so hard?)

I also, when I think back to last year, remember some very aggressive verbal attacks that seemed much more just that, an aggression, rather than a defensive stance. this I could see might be manipulation. He's much more in a place now to REACT in a push away action than then. Interesting.


Scout, my Scandinavian relative from the great 99 tribe,

Reading your post made me wonder how it is you have picked 2 different people to be in relationships with who have PDs? i'm curious since it's no picnic!

Waverider:

Truth, boundaries are about us! And maybe I will never be able to discuss some things with my H and just be frustrated forever, I hope not. I just need to figure out how to protect myself by bringing things up without using invalidating words, and decide where the line is for my boundary to keep from being pushed away verbally so vigorously when he hates what i'm saying. I guess that's the thing, I need to still try to talk, but know what precise boundary at what precise time I will whip out of my toolkit and lay down to save myself. HAAARRD

"Taking the contest out of it" is something I have started learning... . but boy do I need to stay on my toes! IT'S EXHAUSTING BEING SO STINKING CAREFUL ALL THE TIME!

And this: I cut out the "we need to/should do" co operative suggestions.

So would it be better for me to say "It's important to me to learn how to talk without making you feel attacked?" or is that STILL too off?

123Phoebe:

The way I look at it is, 'This (whatever it is that's not my value, makes me feel uncomfortable; I'm going to back way off' (my boundary). My T has talked a bit about values, like where my values are different from H's values. I think I need to ask her more as it relates to boundaries, since it seems like this could be key. it's certainly something I don't really understand yet. But backing away every time I say the first sentence and he reacts by getting defensive means I never get past the first sentence. SIGH. His wanting space is all on his terms--I should be in the room when he's relaxing (whether that's on the computer or watching tv) BUT I should NOT be in his space if I want to talk about our issues. It's a quandary.

Bruceli my "same boat" friend:

Ah! So your w knows she has a PD? That's something, and I'd imagine it puts a different spin on it. My H is undiagnosed and doesn't seem to be interested in going to therapy to figure out why he can't talk about anything deep between he and the woman he's been married to for nearly 37 years... . this is difficult. And validating, isn't it supposed to be things that aren't just telling them what they want to hear, but more about letting them know that we do hear them? i'm trying to do that, but I definitely need to read up on it! That was a lovely compassionate thing you said in response to her.

MammaMia!

This is where I live, in the land of the uBPD who will NOT admit he has any issues. Very frustrating for me since I've been in therapy for 12 years now, and I still feel like i'm disentangling the mess of me. And difficult? It's a regular joyride.

I THINK I may have commented on everything I meant to now! LOL


LEARNING: it's the life long school!

Thanks all for your responses.

[DreamFlyer99]

OOPS! I tried to put goldylamont in yellow (as close as I could find to gold ) but you can't see it! Use the force... . it's there... .

[waverider]

"It's important to me to learn how to talk without making you feel attacked?"

Why do you need to tell your partner this? If you are asking them they are not going to teach you. An illogical person cannot teach you a logical method

If you are not asking, but merely defending yourself in a conflict then you are heading toward JADE.

making you feel attacked

You are telling them how they feel. Ask, dont tell, better to say ":)o you feel attacked when I say XYZ, that is not my intention". This is a concise example SET, you are paying attention(S) asking (E),clarifying your position (T)

[Scout99]

Scout, my Scandinavian relative from the great 99 tribe,

Reading your post made me wonder how it is you have picked 2 different people to be in relationships with who have PDs? i'm curious since it's no picnic!

Dear DreamFlyer99!

Thanks for inviting me into your great 99 tribe!   I feel honored to recieve that!

And about your spot on reflection... . If you only knew how many times I have wrecked my brain with that particular question... . Because I really don't try to seek it out... . To the contrary... . So far I have only been able to figure out two things... . 1: I do have a great tolerance for peoples "irregularities", that is I am a rather accepting kind of person when it comes to peoples peculiarities and differences. And I wont discard or judge someone for seeming weird or withdrawn or extreme or whatever. Quite frankly I think most people are somewhat weird, so who am I to judge?

2: I am somewhat kind and generous as a person and however smart, also a bit gullible when it comes to believing there is something good in everybody... . And that we all deserve a break... . And for some reason I think maybe those kinds of traits in me, makes me interesting to men with PD's... .

I don't know... . ? Thankfully I am currently in therapy so maybe I will find out!   

You see I have also had a relationship for many years with a man who (years after we split up), went through a psychotic episode where he started imagining things and became extremely paranoid... . He was in a new relationship, but wasn't comfortable talking to her. But we have always remained good friends after our break-up so he chose to reach out to me being terrified of what was happening but refusing to see a doctor... . (paranoid)... . I became worried and took him in to live with me for a week since his home created the fears and so on... . And being a journalist at the time secretly called everyone I knew within the psychiatric field... . Who all warned me saying that he was going to become violent and told me to get him to a psychiatric clinic at once... . Which I knew, knowing him, wasn't going to be possible, at least not then... . So I decided to do exactly what everybody told me not to: keep him in my home, (so I at least could perhaps call for an ambulance if things were going to get out of hand... . And then again break the rules and apply logic to the situation... . And to my surprise that worked! He came out of his episode and is five years later still doing just fine!

But to get back to your reflection... . I have a feeling that most men and women who find themselves involved with partners who turn out to have a PD all pretty much have in common that they have descent, (not to say big) heart   and great tolerance. And those traits ought to be very appealing to people who's insides mostly are in turmoil and who in different ways have lost their faith in both themselves and in love somewhere long ago along their winding path through life... . ? I think it really is that simple, and that complicating it with diagnosing co-dependency as a reason is to as we say where I live, to cross pass the creek and go all the way to the ocean just to get some water... .

I'm not saying it can't be so in some cases... . But I don't see any of that in my situation... . It has however taken some time, especially the last time, wit my ex N, before I started to realize something wasn't right with him... .

This time it went a little faster... . But I must also stress out that there is a huge difference between these two men! On so many levels! So I can clearly see now why there is room for these two different kinds of PD's, who in some aspects share traits, but differ so much in others... .

BUT! I am still indecisive about how far I am willing to take this "relationship". I am as a person willing to do a lot for the people I love and have in my life. But I do draw the line very firmly in the ground and have a defined limit that I won't cross... . And that is that it won't be possible to have me in their lives and live as if they are completely unaware of their problems... . He will have to start out seeking help if I am to be willing to enter into a more long-term solid relationship with this man. Thats my boundary! That's the same boundary I set up for my ex N, when I finally had been able to figure out what the h*ll was wrong with him... . I then told him I thought we needed help. And he chose to discard me... . And I let him... .  It was extremely painful, make no mistake about it. But I am so glad today that I held my fort and didn't budge there... .

Thanks again DreamFly99 my 99 tribe sista' for raising this question too, it's important to vent and talk about our motives or what is driving us too!

Scout99

[Scout99]

If you are not asking, but merely defending yourself in a conflict then you are heading toward JADE.

Sorry for being a newbie and maybe asking a Q that has been posted hundreds of times... . I have been able to figure out what SET means and works, but what does JADE stand for and how does that work?

I would really appreciate some help with that!

Scout99

[waverider]

If you are not asking, but merely defending yourself in a conflict then you are heading toward JADE.

Sorry for being a newbie and maybe asking a Q that has been posted hundreds of times... . I have been able to figure out what SET means and works, but what does JADE stand for and how does that work?

I would really appreciate some help with that!

Scout99

Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain... . it puts you in the defensive because you are trying to use truth, logic and fairness. They are are using whatever makes you retreat from your position, they have no rules. They will keep pushing until you are unsure of yourself and compromise on your boundary.

In effect it doesn't work and needs to be avoided at all costs