Part 2: Setting boundaries: is this too much?

[pursuingJoy]

Mod Note:  Part 1 of this thread is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=340441.0

In answer to your question, it was both our concern. He feels responsible for her and was worried that he would be percieved as a slacker, or someone that didn't fulfill his obligation. I felt that I was reassuring him that he didn't need to feel responsible for her.

I agree that I've been every rule on the triangle, I've been reading through this sites info on the karpman triangle again. Thank you.

The fact that it's a losing battle is so extremely depressing. I learned about bpd about 4 months ago so this is all new. Pardon me if this sounds dramatic, but the fact that it's a losing battle makes me feel like I need to bury the husband and relationship I thought I had and hopefully figure out how to do life, much less love, this stranger and his mom I'm married to. Meanwhile, the responsibility falls on me and me alone to change. He won't, nor will she. It really sucks.

The fact that I am playing the role of the bad side of his mother in this is also profoundly depressing. There is zero chance of ever having a balanced relationship with him or being heard. I hear you saying I should accommodate his emotions, support his relationship with his mom, not argue because I won't "win', all accepting the fact I won't get what I need I return. It seriously makes me wonder why I'm staying. Can I ask him to do anything?

I understand how my responses sound condescending, also depressing. Would my responses have been perceived as such by a healthy person?

It is heavy. I've cried a good deal over the past few days.
I feel like you're both saying that my only option is to accommodate him and his mom, which makes me feel angry and resentful. If that's not what you're saying, or I'm missing something,  how do I create a corner for me in this threesome? Or do I look for support elsewhere? I miss my husband.

Thank you for sharing these observations. I'll check in with my mc to see what she says about this as well.

pj

[GaGrl]

Sorry for the brevity, trying to respond btwn between life demands.

GaGrl, thanks. I've thought more about the "describe the marriage you want" question and I do think that may be a way to identify differences and common ground. I have a friend who is fine as long as her husband doesn't cheat, they go on family trips, and she gets to do what she loves. I know im looking for authentic connection, intimacy, friendship and time. I had that until 4 months ago.

Other than finding out about BPD, what happened four months ago that brought you to where you are now?

I would not advise tolerating the situation as is. I hope that is not what you are hearing from me. However, nothing appears to have the possibility for change until you instigate it, and I suspect that is what your MC is wanting to help you with.

I certainly get what you are describing as the type of marriage you want. Even though my DH and I had most of the intimacy, trust, etc. from the beginning, we sure had several years of working through his CPTSD from his marriage to his ex (uBPD/NPD) and boundaries that we're necessary to the privacy and sanctity of our marriage.

[once removed]

He feels responsible for her and was worried that he would be percieved as a slacker, or someone that didn't fulfill his obligation. I felt that I was reassuring him that he didn't need to feel responsible for her.

i look at it this way:

is it unreasonable that a man would help out an ex wife in need, give her a dryer that hes already getting rid of?

there isnt a right or wrong answer to that.

whether it is healthy, or to whatever extent it is healthy, his issue with feeling responsible to her, i see as his issue. if he specifically asks for help with that issue, thats one thing. at least in the example you gave, he didnt.

i suspect that in order for your relationship to thrive, your husband needs to individuate. feel and act as an adult (very difficult with a bpd parent). come into his own, so to speak. fixing these issues for him, with his ex wife, with his mom, will not help him do that. and it puts you in a one up position.

I hear you saying I should accommodate his emotions, support his relationship with his mom, not argue because I won't "win', all accepting the fact I won't get what I need I return.

let me be very clear: this is not what im saying.

what im saying is that the role you are playing is counter to your goals, and thats increasing your frustration. you need to see the bigger picture, and shift gears, to the center of the triangle.

at the heart of the karpman drama triangle is the need to be right - thats what drives the drama, and thats what im referring to as a losing battle. the funny thing is when we let go of that mentality (its driving us) and we step off the triangle (or into the center), constructive solutions become much, much clearer. and the drama dissipates.

things can get better.

have you read Stop Caretaking the Borderline or the Narcissist? your husband need not be either for it to be a valuable resource you can learn a great deal from, that will help.

[pursuingJoy]

Other than finding out about BPD, what happened four months ago that brought you to where you are now?

This was the triggering event, posted on this thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339596.0

once removed, in a nutshell, husband and I agreed long ago that his mother would never move in with us. He went to his mom's house to do work, 24 hrs later I joined them. Within two mins of my arrival she announced that she and her son had decided she would build an apartment above our garage. She would let me design the outside but I had to let her design the inside. I felt like I was in the twilight zone - he should never have made plans for her moving in with us, nor plans to build on our property, without me. I wasn't rude, never raised my voice, but told her firmly that was not the plan I'd discussed with her son. She kept arguing, saying it's what they'd agreed, following me down the hall and yelling after me that I was just insecure. He never said a word until we got in the car to come home, when he yelled at me for two hours, saying they were joking, I was too sensitive, and I didn't have a heart because she was so lonely and she just wanted to live with us.  

I found out later that she had informed him that she would "poke at" me with this.

I would not advise tolerating the situation as is. I hope that is not what you are hearing from me. However, nothing appears to have the possibility for change until you instigate it, and I suspect that is what your MC is wanting to help you with.

I'm sure what all of us on this board and the MC are concerned about is the possibility for change, the question is only the approach. I'm not sure about my capacity to simply absorb and accept.

I realized I didn't answer your previous question about what led to his divorce. He married a woman with NPD or at best NPD tendencies. After years of being very unhappy and in his words, unsuccessfully rescuing her and becoming resentful because she didn't reciprocate, his dad died and that threw him into a dark place. He lost his job soon after, then he started messaging his old girlfriend from high school, then they had an affair.  

I met him after he'd broken off the affair and as he and his wife were finalizing the divorce. We were friends for a while, just talked about what it's like to navigate divorce, battle feeling guilty about kids and what they go through, and ex's. At first I defended her and tried to get him to see the experience of a single mom. Then I saw her texts and heard how she talked to him on the phone. One day she'd scream at him for leaving the kids' bag on the porch because it might rain, next day she'd send him photos of her legs at the beach. It was interesting.

I remember his affair once in a while. He used to be very invested in making sure that I feel comfortable, but even that has changed in the last 4 months. If he's going to spend the entire day with his mom, he doesn't care how comfortable or uncomfortable i feel, he's going. (And I swear, I don't drum up concerns to try to control him. I'm very cautious in mentioning anything associated with the affair as he still carries a good deal of guilt.)  I'm assuming his insistence on seeing his mom no matter what is tied to his need to stay connected to his mom, not that he's having another affair.

once removed,  I can grasp logically what you're saying, that the need to be right is a losing battle. I'm not yet in an emotional state where I can do that. my heart is breaking. Maybe someday I can calmly let it go and step off the triangle.

I'm a bit overwhelmed by all of the processing so I'm taking a short weekend break from the board. I am thankful for your feedback and I hope y'all have a great weekend!

pj

[once removed]

as a child, i watched my pill of a grandma (dads mom) be a total nightmare to my mother.

my grandma wasnt a bad woman. loosy goosy, i think, describes her to a T. a poor sense of boundaries. little filter.

shed do things like come into my mothers home and start rearranging or criticizing. or say digging, insulting things. it drove my mom nuts, to tears, and immense frustration.

and my dad did  all to make any of it better.

my mom tried. and my dad tended to lean toward his moms side, or agree with my mom but not do anything about it, or throw up his hands.

my ex had something against my mom; in fairness, she had something against all of her exs' moms. she saw anything my mom did as a slight, and a move to push her out of the picture. my ex liked to dig at me about my relationship with my mom, and imply that it was unhealthy. shed start in on me, provoke me, and when i got irritated, shed tell me "youre just mad because im talking about your mom". and i cant stress enough how infuriating that was. ive always been close to my mom, and my dad, though emotionally closer to my mom. it put me in an impossible position; this was the woman i intended to marry. my parents taught me that ones spouse comes first, so its a deeply held value of mine. and yet, here she was criticizing the earliest human id had a bond with, and the bond itself. and in complete fairness, my mom also did things to validate my exs concerns/fears. i remember one time, her opening up a conversation about a girl i knew in school, and how cute she was now. going on and on about it, and reminding me how that girl had liked me. i remember shrinking in horror and anxiety, knowing exactly how my ex was going to take that (and how any reasonable woman would), wondering what in the world my mother was thinking.

pursuingJoy, my point is not about my story; not even to draw any parallels. what you are experiencing is any of that, on steroids+meth.

i get that your mother in law is a nightmare, and i agree with you that your husbands relationship with her is most unhealthy and a serious detriment to your marriage. please dont for a second think that any of that is lost on me.

conflict in marriage tends to be universal, even where personality disorders are involved. couples fight about parenting. about finances. one of the most common is conflict about the in-laws. its a conflict as old as time. it can be resolved.

and it can get better.

what it takes to get better is not capitulation or surrender. it is not throwing up your hands and tolerating your circumstances.

its just going to take a different mindset, and a different, more constructive approach. one that, and i want to stress, means more peace in your life.

you can do this.

I'm not yet in an emotional state where I can do that. my heart is breaking. Maybe someday I can calmly let it go and step off the triangle.

I'm a bit overwhelmed by all of the processing so I'm taking a short weekend break from the board. I

we understand. we are here. we are listening. we can help. and this can get better. it really can.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

[formflier]

Hey..I just scanned several threads and I think I may have a different point of view on the "dryer thing" that may help understand this.

How many children does your hubby share with his ex?  (it appears there are a few...perhaps)

So...I'm wondering if he was trying to meet a basic need of his kids, vice his ex. 

I'm not trying to pick sides here, but I am deliberately trying to get you to look at his actions from different points of view, which will hopefully increase you understanding of why he does things.

Switching gears. 

There is a MASSIVE amount of indirect communication.  Such as:  Your hubby says something to his mom, mom cries to friend, friend calls you hubby.

Karpman karpman karpman! 


I'm wondering how you can answer your hubby when these indirect communications come up.  Can you think of things to say where the details of the issue at hand don't need to be discussed...just focus on the poor communication pattern?

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

The two examples I gave were condensed considerably for the sake of saving space on a written forum, and their original intent was to contrast how differently he responds in different situations.    But here goes:

Hey..I just scanned several threads and I think I may have a different point of view on the "dryer thing" that may help understand this.

How many children does your hubby share with his ex?  (it appears there are a few...perhaps)

So...I'm wondering if he was trying to meet a basic need of his kids, vice his ex.  

I'm not trying to pick sides here, but I am deliberately trying to get you to look at his actions from different points of view, which will hopefully increase you understanding of why he does things.

We have 6 kids total, currently raising 2 of his kids from his second marriage, and 3 of mine from my first marriage.

You are correct, my husband takes child support and his role as a father very seriously. If he failed to be there for his kids, or someone perceived that he didn't adequately provide for them, that would really upset him. He takes great pride in caring for his kids financially, emotionally, spending time, coaching teams, etc. I respect that about him.

The first three years I knew him he would express anger and frustration at his ex for taking advantage of him. Nothing he gave her was enough (yes, he said that and more). One example: he pays her a LOT of money in child support each month, more than I pay for our mortgage, yet she would send texts along the lines of, "Kid needs shoes, this brand and size, please buy them this weekend.") That would make him angry.

Important elements to highlight:
1. The dynamic of her asking for/taking more and more was a problem for him. He wants to provide for his kids, but he didn't believe that it meant giving in to her every request. He expressed resentment that even after divorce she relied on him to care for her. He knew that I'd navigated divorce and asked for advice on where to set limits. Sometimes he took my advice, sometimes he didn't.  

He understood that fear and guilt were driving his behavior. He was afraid because she had weaponized kids in the past to get him to do something. He didn't want his kids caught in the middle. I had navigated many of the same emotions with my ex and he respected my opinion.

He also felt guilty for his part in causing the divorce and would say that it was guilt that was driving his inability to say no to her. I could empathize with this and we spent a lot of time (sometimes fighting, but most of the time in mutual and grateful partnership) talking about guilt, responsibility, love and what we wanted for our kids.

2. The way she treated him was also a problem for me. It hurt my heart to watch my husband be screamed at, then get upset, be taken advantage of, and bend over backwards to accommodate and appease a woman who would not be satiated. He was often stressed about it and carried that emotion into our relationship.

Perhaps to avoid conflict, which legitimately can be the wise thing to do with an ex that you're co-parenting with, he also was happy to rely on me to cover all of our household expenses. He was so focused on making her calm down and taking care of his kids, he didn't consider how I'd feel carrying the weight of our household expenses. I shared that it was a lot to carry and he agreed/apologized that it was overwhelming. We are working to get him out of debt so that he can help me. (That's a long story, I'm happy to share if you feel it's relevant.)

Things are much better now. She still doesn't help with transportation, still makes plans for the kids on his weekends, and still overshares personal information with him. I don't say a word anymore because he has done a great job of balancing the dynamic. My needs have been taken into consideration, the stress with her has dissipated, he feels empowered, and most importantly he feels good about where they've landed. I don't speak up unless it's something she does that impacts me directly and that is rare.

The dryer wasn't about the dryer. He and I are on the same page as far as material objects and kids' needs. My gut told me he felt guilty again. After reading your and once removed's observations about him seeing me as his mother, I think he was checking in to see what he should do. Based on previous conversations we'd had, I just wanted to reassure him it was ok to say no. Motherly? I don't want to play that role. I also want to be open about what I see and encourage him that it's ok not to please everyone...so part of this was also just a husband and wife working through difficult dynamics.

Taking it back to my original intent in sharing the two examples, he was mad at his ex, he's not mad at his mom. He asked for advice about his ex, he didn't ask for advice about his mom. I think what you and once removed are saying is I shouldn't offer unsolicited advice, and if I do, be prepared for the reaction.
 

There is a MASSIVE amount of indirect communication.  Such as:  Your hubby says something to his mom, mom cries to friend, friend calls you hubby.

Karpman karpman karpman!  

I'm wondering how you can answer your hubby when these indirect communications come up.  Can you think of things to say where the details of the issue at hand don't need to be discussed...just focus on the poor communication pattern?

I 1000% agree with you. The situation you mentioned weirded me out. I didn't even know how to bring it up. The only thing he took from that was that his mom was trying to protect him from her feelings, that she was justified in feeling hurt.

I've tried what you're suggesting, though still taking baby steps. Once he was going on a panicked rant because I hadn't called his mom by the end of the week and now she would never visit us again. I stayed calm and just asked him why there was a deadline and when she had shared it. He looked surprised and said, "I don't know, and she didn't." I then changed the subject and he dropped it. Don't know if that's what you're talking about, but it seemed to work in that situation.  

The MC has said that she thinks we can work to improve our communication, which is right on target with what I'm reading here. It also feels a little like treating cancer with ibuprofen, but I've never been down this road so who knows, maybe it will make a dent.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts FF.

pj

[GaGrl]

Perhaps the MC work on better communication can get include some work around how he perceives or positions you within those situations. You describe his focus/care/sense of responsibility for his, mother, his ex, and his children. When does this focus include you?

[pursuingJoy]

onceremoved, thanks for sharing a little of your story, it's helpful to know more about where you're coming from. When we fight and he gets uncomfortable, my husband blames me for everything. I'm everything from too sensitive to uncaring and all of our problems would go away if I would just let it go and calm down.

Logically, I could hear you were extending an observation about how I may be unwittingly contributing to the problem. Emotionally, I was hearing my husband's tone in your posts, but that's on me. Thanks for clarifying.

I also appreciate the encouragement (I'm aware that I need a lot of it right now).

i remember one time, her opening up a conversation about a girl i knew in school, and how cute she was now. going on and on about it, and reminding me how that girl had liked me. i remember shrinking in horror and anxiety, knowing exactly how my ex was going to take that (and how any reasonable woman would), wondering what in the world my mother was thinking.

Question for you, as we've been in this situation numerous times. Is it reasonable to ask my husband to step in with a loving, "Hey mom, maybe now isn't the best time/she doesn't want to hear about that. We were going to run to the store to pick up that wine you like, ready to go?"

His defense of and explanations for this dynamic truly baffles me. I can't expect him to read my mind. I don't even expect him to get upset at the same things I do, or react the way I would. I'm just asking him to use his superpower as loving son to step in, save his mom , show a measure of acknowledgment of what his wife is going through and stand with her...not against his mom, but with his wife. I've explained this concept time and again in many non-threatening, kind ways and it just doesn't land.

what it takes to get better is not capitulation or surrender. it is not throwing up your hands and tolerating your circumstances.

its just going to take a different mindset, and a different, more constructive approach. one that, and i want to stress, means more peace in your life.
you can do this.

Thanks for this. This is all still very overwhelming. I read an article yesterday entitled, "Trauma is not your fault but healing is your responsibility." I'm resentful that I'm taking responsibility for someone else's trauma, and that my marriage's survival is dependent on me taking on a new mindset. If I dropped everything today, hubby and his mom would continue exactly as they have without regard for their impact on me.

So because even "I feel" or "It hurts me when" statements cause him to be defensive, and because I'm incapable of holding a constructive conversation (per the tools you've shared) I don't share how I feel anymore. So I read, process, write, occasionally talk to the MC being mindful of not triangulating her, sort through all of my feelings alone and with y'all. My emotional connection to my husband feels weaker by the day. I don't pretend everything's fine, but I try to stay supportive and positive and avoid conversations about his mom. I stay busy and work.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

Helpful article, I'll read through it several times more. I see the common sense in bringing emotional responses down and fully embrace that responding negatively only creates more negativity. I do think that identifying common goals is critical, although he and I will not necessarily disagree on the goals but how to achieve them. As an example, we agree that we want to protect our marriage, he doesn't see what his mom has to do with that.  

I appreciate you and everyone's support. You've been in my shoes and you've survived, I respect what you have to say. I also know that I'm very emotional at the moment so I'm sorry for the ways my emotions have affected even our communication.  

pj

  

[formflier]

So, your hubby tries to control his ex's emotional stuff by overfunctioning for her

So, you try (or did try...this seems to be changing) to control your hubby's emotions by (blank).

The Mom is involved somehow and it seems that several people are invested in controlling her emotions.

I would encourage stepping back and asking a question.  Am I ok with letting people I care about make bad decisions and/or be upset?

Am I ok having different feelings and reactions than the people I care about?

Here is my big picture analysis.

The issues at hand are infinitely solvable in many different ways.  That they remain unsolved most likely means the issues that appear to be at hand, are really not the issues at hand.

Basically (as one example)..it's not about the money between your hubby and your ex.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

  When does this focus include you?

I've been wondering the same thing?

I would further expand that to PJ's allocation of resources that she controls (time, money, etc etc)

How many of PJs resources go toward PJ and I would wonder if what order?

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

Perhaps the MC work on better communication can get include some work around how he perceives or positions you within those situations. You describe his focus/care/sense of responsibility for his, mother, his ex, and his children. When does this focus include you?

Makes a lot of sense and I like the idea of the MC leading the discussion to help us find common ground.

Since we agreed to hang out with his mom this Saturday, he is calmer and seems happy. We have a session scheduled for tomorrow that we agreed to use to talk about how we were going to manage possibly scenarios this Saturday. Last night he said he couldn't make it, he has to pick up his kids, I should go alone.

Even little things like this make me feel like I'm not a priority. Explaining that to him would be counterproductive, so I'm just going to follow through on what we'd agreed to do: I'm going to remind him what we'd agreed to discuss how to handle potential scenarios that might come up on Saturday and try to reschedule for this week.

[once removed]

I would encourage stepping back and asking a question.  Am I ok with letting people I care about make bad decisions and/or be upset?

Am I ok having different feelings and reactions than the people I care about?

Here is my big picture analysis.

The issues at hand are infinitely solvable in many different ways.  That they remain unsolved most likely means the issues that appear to be at hand, are really not the issues at hand.

i think that what formflier says here is dead on.

Question for you, as we've been in this situation numerous times. Is it reasonable to ask my husband to step in with a loving, "Hey mom, maybe now isn't the best time/she doesn't want to hear about that. We were going to run to the store to pick up that wine you like, ready to go?"

His defense of and explanations for this dynamic truly baffles me. I can't expect him to read my mind. I don't even expect him to get upset at the same things I do, or react the way I would. I'm just asking him to use his superpower as loving son to step in, save his mom Laugh out loud (click to insert in post), show a measure of acknowledgment of what his wife is going through and stand with her...not against his mom, but with his wife. I've explained this concept time and again in many non-threatening, kind ways and it just doesn't land.

its reasonable to expect. and it might even be a good way to defuse things.

His defense of and explanations for this dynamic truly baffles me.

what are his defenses? how does he see it?

[pursuingJoy]

So, your hubby tries to control his ex's emotional stuff by overfunctioning for her

So, you try (or did try...this seems to be changing) to control your hubby's emotions by (blank).

The Mom is involved somehow and it seems that several people are invested in controlling her emotions.

The issues at hand are infinitely solvable in many different ways.  That they remain unsolved most likely means the issues that appear to be at hand, are really not the issues at hand.

Wow this seems like a massive oversimplification of several complicated relationships, using only information I've shared via posts in an online forum.

It's hard to watch people I love, hurt. I understand I can't control the decisions they ultimately make.

Whether or not I feel ok disagreeing with others depends entirely on the context. Am I always happy? No. Can I find a measure of peace? Yes.







 

[pursuingJoy]

what are his defenses? how does he see it?

He says it's my problem. His mom didn't mean it, she was joking, I'm too sensitive.

I'm glad y'all have this figured out.

[once removed]

hang here with us, pursuingJoy.

we are trying to help. we are on your side. and we know how hard all of this is.

[formflier]

He says it's my problem. His mom didn't mean it, she was joking, I'm too sensitive.
 

If it's just going to be you at MC, perhaps you can use that time to role play a bit how you can bring this up directly to his Mom when you guys go to hang out. 

My guess is it will go something like this.

Thank her for clarifying that she was joking, that you want to clarify it's not a joking matter and it is something you are sensitive about (do NOT own or allow it to be described as "too" sensitive) and it would mean a lot to you for her to respect your sensitivities on this matter.

End by saying you are looking forward to a good visit and focusing on areas that you appear to be in agreement on, such as her son being a wonderful guy...etc etc.

The critical part in all this is DIRECT COMMUNICATION with CLARITY.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I'll second the thought to hang in here with us.  This is hard stuff and as you know all too well, very complicated and messy.  

What is the antidote for messy and complicated?

Wow this seems like a massive oversimplification of several complicated relationships

Succinct, simple (or simpler) and direct are all words and concepts to gravitate towards when "the BPDish stuff" starts or when you have to clean up after BPD has visited.

Yes...relationships are complicated.  What I would encourage you to focus on (and perhaps ask yourself and the people involved) with an attitude of curiosity or "befuddlement"

1.  Help me understand the complexities involved
2.  Help me understand apparent resistance to simplifying.

Yes, those are intentionally vague.  Let them fill in the blanks.

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

Thanks - I have prepared a statement (that is concise, practiced, brief and loving) that I've been practicing.

FF and or, it is clear that you believe, and I can in part accept, that I'm a big part of the problem. I will continue to process how I can be part of the solution.

I guess you're modeling simple communication and I understand the need for it. I JADE far too much and I'm trying to stop.

I'll tell you from my emotional response to your simplification of my situation that it won't be successful with my husband or his mom. Is that your point? You're saying I do that to him?

pj

[formflier]

You're getting this!      Time will allow us (and more importantly you) to be able to reflect on your understanding and how it is changing over time.

Keep it up!

Thanks - I have prepared a statement (that is concise, practiced, brief and loving) that I've been practicing.

Yes..yes..and triple yes.  Practice.  Focus on tone as well as the words.  Do you feel like sharing the statement with us?

Quick thought.  It's important to practice..but not to "sound practiced".  I can't say that "loving" is not what's called for here, but there is an emotional undercurrent with "loving".  If you don't match up with how they feel or "receive" your statement, invalidation is a risk.  

You may be better off with "matter of fact" for tone.  Almost "of course you would agree".  

FF and or, it is clear that you believe, and I can in part accept, that I'm a big part of the problem. I will continue to process how I can be part of the solution.

I know exactly what you "mean" by "problem".  That being said, it's important to focus hard on changing things since you know that what is currently going on doesn't work.  

What if you changed problem to dynamic.

What is "missing" (or a lot less) when you use the word "dynamic"?

I guess you're modeling simple communication and I understand the need for it. I JADE far too much and I'm trying to stop.

Yes..it's a deliberate choice.  If the road towards nuance (or perhaps even chaos or more complicated) isn't working...turn around and go the other way.

Most likely we will make the mistake of "oversimplifying".  That's ok.  Most likely, for far to long you have been "over-complicating".  So I advise being deliberate that if you are going to make a mistake,  Oversimplify.

I'll tell you from my emotional response to your simplification of my situation that it won't be successful with my husband or his mom. Is that your point? You're saying I do that to him?

Can you expand on this?  It sounds important but I'm not exactly sure what you are asking/suggesting.

Keep up the good work!

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

I know exactly what you "mean" by "problem".  That being said, it's important to focus hard on changing things since you know that what is currently going on doesn't work.  

What if you changed problem to dynamic.

What is "missing" (or a lot less) when you use the word "dynamic"?

You strip it of emotion. It's neutral.

I'm losing my husband and I'm being told to neutralize my emotions. If emotionless, simple communication is what is required I don't know if I want to stay married to him. He says it's my fault for not liking his mom. You say it's my fault because I mother him, I'm condescending, I explain too much, I shouldn't emote. Let's say the conflict with his mom improves after I do these things. What about my heart? I'm left with a spouse I don't know anymore, and there isn't any space for me in our relationship.

I assumed that by simplifying my situation, you were in practice pointing out that I do that to him.

[formflier]

You strip it of emotion. It's neutral.

It is neutral and I suppose I wouldn't "argue against" it being stripped of emotion, I was more going for "stripped of judgment".

Either way "going for neutrality" is a very important concept.  One that applies for "positive" and "negative" things.  

I'm losing my husband and I'm being told to neutralize my emotions.

I wouldn't agree and don't have enough information to disagree that your husband is "on the way out".

I think it's 100% clear that the communication patterns are obfuscating the true status of almost all the relationships involved.

Calming emotions is helpful in improving your communications, which will give you a clearer view of where your husband stands.

If emotionless, simple communication is what is required I don't know if I want to stay married to him.

I do understand how "unsatisfying" it can be to not "speak your mind" or "speak your heart".

Here is the thing, does it appear that he is understanding the messages you send him in the way that you desire them to be understood?

Asked another way, is your current communication strategy/method working for your?  What do you think of your results so far?
Wouldn't it be wise to try something different..to consistently try it and see if there is a change and form an opinion on what you actually experience.

He says it's my fault for not liking his mom.

This is inflammatory and I certainly would never advise him to say or think these things.  

I would advise you to not "bite" or "contribute" to the flames he has introduced.  Likely the best course is to slowly starve those flames of the oxygen they need to "burn".

At some point he will realize that saying odd things like that are no longer "working for him" and then things will start changing.  It's important for you to be ready for this moment, so you can nudge things in a better direction.

You say it's my fault because I mother him, I'm condescending, I explain too much, I shouldn't emote.

I do say you are responsible for your role in the relationship.  

Mothering, condescending and explaining are all things that you should do a lot less of.  Emoting is something that should likely be done or focused in a different way or perhaps with different timing.

Let's say the conflict with his mom improves after I do these things. What about my heart? I'm left with a spouse I don't know anymore, and there isn't any space for me in our relationship.

Whoa...whoa...

The point of all this is to clarify communication in order to clarify your space in the relationship.

I would think better communication would actually help you know your spouse better.

 

Let's not predict the future too much...

I assumed that by simplifying my situation, you were in practice pointing out that I do that to him.

Hmm...we may need to work on this some.  

I simplified your situation to clarify the big moving parts and perhaps show what people are predisposed to do, what role people gravitate to.

I'm not sure I would agree you are simplifying things to him.  I don't think you intended to have a power struggle with him over his point of view, but I think there is a high likelihood that he experienced it that way.   (a very preliminary opinion)

Oh...here is the thing or at least an important thing to consider.

You've come here for advice.  Look at how we are responding to you.

Your husband has explicitly asked you for advice on a number of things.  Reflect a bit on how you responded to him.

Compare that to our responses here.

Never know what insight you may gain, but it could spark some interesting conversation.

Thanks for being so open and vulnerable.  This is not easy stuff.  What can you do to be extra kind to yourself this evening?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

  I'm overwhelmed to the point of panic. I did this to myself, I opened up and asked for it. 

Kinda like wanting to get a sip of water and the fire hose come on instead?

Solid work identifying and communicating what you are thinking/feeling.  Take some well deserved rest and when you are ready we'll take smaller sips!   

Take care.

Best,

FF

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