Can one be BPD and a sociopath at the same time?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Yesterday I had the pleasure of breaking NC after 50 days, due to a FB notification to a group unBPD-ex runs that I did not even remember being a part of since it was inactive since 2011. He posted something in there about my illness (I have a stress related chronic illness) as if he were an expert in it and mentioning the treatment I use as a success story. First post to this group since 2011. Likely designed to get my attention. It worked because it reall rattled me and I ended up going on his FB ( I have defriended him but he currently seems to have everything set to public) and I had the joy of reading two months of horrible stuff, including him asking people how to get rid of his relationship status, like it was a piece of garbage (we were together all together 3 years plus two years prior to that as friends and we were engaged twice, you would expect a modicum of respect). And he then set his status as "free agent" and was bragging like a low life sleaze ball about his new single life. Also... .seems there was not one iota of grief, sadness, remorse, nothing. The dude is having the time of his life. So then why the illness post? Anyway I ended up emailing him and giving him a piece of my mind, I even told him you know, to get rid of relationship status, how about you disappear for a month and see if it goes away on its own, seems to work for you in real life, maybe you should give it  a try. I was pissed. This guy has taken so much from me, I supported him so much how dare he be this disrespectful in front of communal friends.

I came away from the whole thing feeling like I had stepped into dirt and that I needed a bath to get cleansed from the experience. The irony is I think he misses me and that he was prepping for a recycle. On the plus side, I was kind of pining away for the dude and I guess that killed any longing dead in its tracks. In some ways I am grateful as now I feel like I can really close the door. This person is just too messed up to deserve any more of my energy or time. And I know in theory they are mentally ill, but where does the line between mental illness and cruel evil behavior lie? Everybody has a choice, no matter how broken... .I dunno. Some of this to me is just despicable behavior. Maybe the 50 days NC broke the bond enough for me to have some perspective.

Anyway, I came away feeling that this guy is just someone I dont even know. Sleaze and nasty are the words that come to mind. And vindictive.

Oh well I give up trying to understand. My mind does not understand this, its just too messed up.

[Ridingthewaves]

Yesterday I had the pleasure of breaking NC after 50 days, due to a FB notification to a group unBPD-ex runs that I did not even remember being a part of since it was inactive since 2011. He posted something in there about my illness (I have a stress related chronic illness) as if he were an expert in it and mentioning the treatment I use as a success story. First post to this group since 2011. Likely designed to get my attention. It worked because it reall rattled me and I ended up going on his FB ( I have defriended him but he currently seems to have everything set to public) and I had the joy of reading two months of horrible stuff, including him asking people how to get rid of his relationship status, like it was a piece of garbage (we were together all together 3 years plus two years prior to that as friends and we were engaged twice, you would expect a modicum of respect). And he then set his status as "free agent" and was bragging like a low life sleaze ball about his new single life. Also... .seems there was not one iota of grief, sadness, remorse, nothing. The dude is having the time of his life. So then why the illness post? Anyway I ended up emailing him and giving him a piece of my mind, I even told him you know, to get rid of relationship status, how about you disappear for a month and see if it goes away on its own, seems to work for you in real life, maybe you should give it  a try. I was pissed. This guy has taken so much from me, I supported him so much how dare he be this disrespectful in front of communal friends.

I came away from the whole thing feeling like I had stepped into dirt and that I needed a bath to get cleansed from the experience. The irony is I think he misses me and that he was prepping for a recycle. On the plus side, I was kind of pining away for the dude and I guess that killed any longing dead in its tracks. In some ways I am grateful as now I feel like I can really close the door. This person is just too messed up to deserve any more of my energy or time. And I know in theory they are mentally ill, but where does the line between mental illness and cruel evil behavior lie? Everybody has a choice, no matter how broken... .I dunno. Some of this to me is just despicable behavior. Maybe the 50 days NC broke the bond enough for me to have some perspective.

Anyway, I came away feeling that this guy is just someone I dont even know. Sleaze and nasty are the words that come to mind. And vindictive.

Oh well I give up trying to understand. My mind does not understand this, its just too messed up.

[Restored2]

Ridingthewaves: Sounds like you dodged a HUGE missile that would have devastated your life into oblivion.  Consider yourself extremely fortunate that you never got married to this guy.  There is no rational way to rationalize irrational behavior.

[Ridingthewaves]

Thank you for saying this, as it rings true... .its like the Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, but the evil one is a horrible person that I want nothing to do with... .I seriously scrolled through 2 months of posts and I was like ... .who is this man? I dated this man and loved him? Its like he is reveling in his dark side. Yuck. I am kind of in shock, but on the other hand grateful as I needed the kick up the pants to move on. I know people swear by NC, but I tend to romanticize at a distance so this was a good reality check for me.

[Restored2]

You're welcome.  There is a real evil side to this disorder.  Keep the reality check in check on this guy.  The Forest Gump movie line; "Run Forest Run", comes to mind.

[Ridingthewaves]

The disorder does a number on ones brain, because its hard to process the split personality effect... .how do you reconcile the nice loving person they can be and this? I can literally feel my brain short-circuiting trying to hold the opposing polarities.

[Restored2]

The disorder can definitely do a number on ones brain.  I think split personalities are at the core of this disorder.  Its difficult to reconcile much of anything with BPD as it is an extremely twisted disorder.

[HappyNihilist]

I ended up going on his FB ( I have defriended him but he currently seems to have everything set to public) and I had the joy of reading two months of horrible stuff, including him asking people how to get rid of his relationship status, like it was a piece of garbage (we were together all together 3 years plus two years prior to that as friends and we were engaged twice, you would expect a modicum of respect). And he then set his status as "free agent" and was bragging like a low life sleaze ball about his new single life. Also... .seems there was not one iota of grief, sadness, remorse, nothing. The dude is having the time of his life.  

I'm so sorry you read hurtful things.   I know it's painful.

It's difficult to discern anyone's true feelings or situation from Facebook. I doubt he's having the time of his life; he's most likely just trying to numb emotional pain.

His FB profile being public, and the sudden post (about you) in a long-defunct group, shows that he's trying to get your attention. You're very much on his mind. He probably posted that stuff for two months, trying to get a reaction, and then when he realized you weren't hanging on his status updates, he made a post clearly directed at you via the group. It's a childish way of poking, trying to initiate contact... .to contact you directly would require more maturity than he's currently capable of.

The irony is I think he misses me and that he was prepping for a recycle. On the plus side, I was kind of pining away for the dude and I guess that killed any longing dead in its tracks. In some ways I am grateful as now I feel like I can really close the door.  

I agree, it sounds like he misses you and was gearing up to try a recycle. He probably will try to contact you directly at some point. How do you feel about that possibility?

I'm glad you feel like this gave you the closure you needed.   You've had the time to step back and see the reality of who he is.

This person is just too messed up to deserve any more of my energy or time. And I know in theory they are mentally ill, but where does the line between mental illness and cruel evil behavior lie? Everybody has a choice, no matter how broken... .

It's absolutely true that everyone has a choice. Mental illness certainly shouldn't excuse cruelty.

For a borderline, their emotional survival comes first. They will do whatever it takes to prevent what they see as "emotional death." They're so full of their own needs that there isn't any room for others' needs. And when they feel threatened and are in survival mode, they lack the capacity for empathy.

Sometimes the pain they cause is inadvertent, just a byproduct of their survival. Sometimes they hurt others intentionally - especially once their partner has become the Punitive Parent (receiving the borderline's projections of "badness". This way, the borderline can safely direct their self-loathing and unresolved anger at their own "bad" parts via their partner.

Again, this isn't an excuse for cruelty, disrespect, abuse, or any of those things. We all have to take responsibility for ourselves. But it does help explain why people with BPD can come across like sociopaths sometimes, with a lack of empathy or remorse. Borderlines are capable of empathy and remorse, but not necessarily consistently.

In the end, it's far less about the possible diagnosis than about whether or not this is a person who's healthy and good for you. Only you can decide that, of course. But it appears that you have done so.

[Infern0]

From a psychological standpoint a person in my opinion cannot be a true sociopath if they have "comorbid" BPD

They say there can be some crossover but BPD is characterized by extreme, intense emotions, ASPD on the other hand basically do not have emotions. The disorders can surprisingly produce similar effects but they are basically at odds with their core symptoms.

BPD can be treated fairly well if the patient undergoes intense therapy over a period of time, ASPD on the other hand is "managed" by basically drilling into the patient that behaving better is to their benefit. They don't care about anyone or anything, BPD do, they just have a weird way of showing it and most times can't actually handle how strongly they feel so they ruin their own relationships out of fear and confusion.

Sociopaths DOMINATE Borderlines in relationships because they quickly figure out the borderlines emotional weaknesses and triggers and they are more skilled at manipulation and will just exploit the borderlines weaknesses mercilessly to their own end. An example would be a sociopath adding to the BPD's self loathing and feelings of worthlessness "nobody else would take you, you are ugly, pathetic and stupid" etc etc etc, when the BPD reacts the sociopath will be completley unmoved by any of the typical BPD mind games.

it's sick

[Ridingthewaves]

I'm so sorry you read hurtful things.   I know it's painful.

Yeah that was painful, I have been reeling all day trying to digest it :-(

His FB profile being public, and the sudden post (about you) in a long-defunct group, shows that he's trying to get your attention. You're very much on his mind. He probably posted that stuff for two months, trying to get a reaction, and then when he realized you weren't hanging on his status updates, he made a post clearly directed at you via the group. It's a childish way of poking, trying to initiate contact... .to contact you directly would require more maturity than he's currently capable of.

Good point, I had not thought of that. Its hard to believe one would go to such nasty length to get a reaction, especially when he is the one that vanished, its like he did not expect me to dump him and is behaving like I am the bad guy for walking away, when he had already walked away. I just called the time of death.

I agree, it sounds like he misses you and was gearing up to try a recycle. He probably will try to contact you directly at some point. How do you feel about that possibility?

A mixture of love and dread. I loved this guy and I am vulnerable to his recycles. He pulls on some part of me that goes mushy when he switches on the charm. I will give this some serious thought, so that I am prepared.

For a borderline, their emotional survival comes first. They will do whatever it takes to prevent what they see as "emotional death." They're so full of their own needs that there isn't any room for others' needs. And when they feel threatened and are in survival mode, they lack the capacity for empathy.

Again, this isn't an excuse for cruelty, disrespect, abuse, or any of those things. We all have to take responsibility for ourselves. But it does help explain why people with BPD can come across like sociopaths sometimes, with a lack of empathy or remorse. Borderlines are capable of empathy and remorse, but not necessarily consistently.

Excellent explanation thank you x

In the end, it's far less about the possible diagnosis than about whether or not this is a person who's healthy and good for you. Only you can decide that, of course.

Good point and good food for thought... .need to be ready for all this... .

[Ridingthewaves]

From a psychological standpoint a person in my opinion cannot be a true sociopath if they have "comorbid" BPD

They say there can be some crossover but BPD is characterized by extreme, intense emotions, ASPD on the other hand basically do not have emotions. The disorders can surprisingly produce similar effects but they are basically at odds with their core symptoms.

yes makes sense... .

Sociopaths DOMINATE Borderlines in relationships because they quickly figure out the borderlines emotional weaknesses and triggers and they are more skilled at manipulation and will just exploit the borderlines weaknesses mercilessly to their own end.

He has a side that is like this. But also emotional, infact emotional dis-regulation describes him well. he likes to dominate and be in control, and he triggered my abandonment stuff like crazy, but he had also times of intense and real vulnerability and abandonment issues of his own. However thee have been times in which he switched into this cold and callous persona. Very abusive when he switched to this mode. Anyway, the mind boggles to contain all this crazy. I have been very alone and lonely the past few months, while also busy dealing with some major work and school related matters, but at least things were normal.

I dont know, now I am feeling very agitated... .like some fear ... .need to take a look at why I am feeling frightened.

[vortex of confusion]

Hugs   

There is a site that I follow that has information about sociopaths. I see a lot of overlap between BPD and sociopath. Not sure if somebody can be both.

www.datingasociopath.com/

I have found some of the information on this site useful because it has stuff on gaslighting and dealing with abuse and recovering from it. I am pretty sure that the guy I had an affair with is a sociopath or some other kind of overly manipulative person. It could be BPD. Really, the diagnosis isn't as important as finding information that validates that you are not crazy and the other person took you for one heck of a ride and you are hurting like crazy.

[Ridingthewaves]

Thank you Vortex thats really helpful x

[Restored2]

Ridingthewaves: There can be many sides to a BPD person.  Many have control issues with fears of being controlled and abandoned.  The push away often involves them going cold and callous.  It's a protective wall for them to feel safe and less vulnerable, albeit a false sense of security.  Mine did the same kind of mistreatment on me.  She was very sweet and loving until it came time to breakup with me.  This is when the cold and callous side of her came to the surface to push me away. 

As for you feeling lonely, I think this is to be expected when someone close and meaningful in our lives is no longer there.  This is when a void is created.  Emotions of agitation, fear, being frightened, etc can be all over the board from everything being stirred up within us.  Take time out for you to heal and mend properly.

[Ridingthewaves]

Thank you Restored... .that's good feedback and soothing words too. I dont think he will be contacting me right away, I smashed him pretty hard with my words. In hate this dynamic, its like you get to the point where you just want them to leave you alone, but you also still love them and miss them very much... .but its like eating a cherry with a worm in it and a worm that bites.

Anyway I think I am going to make myself a cup of chamomile tea.

[Infared]

I did not engage in any of the social media crap. I knew that I would not have fared well pointing that gun at myself by investigating her portrayals. I just knew that I did not have the stamina to engage in that nonsense. I cancelled my accounts and stayed in reality. Unfortunately reality entailed running into her alone and with my replacement publicly in my small town.I did encounter what I feel is mentally ill if not worse as it was grown adults in their late 30's acting like 6th-graders.

They obviously had put a "plan" together on how to act when the "ran-in" to me... .which was to embrace and kiss etc. ... .it was soo "put-on". It was hard to comprehend that this was the person that I had lived with for 5 years... .but if she was alone... .she would put on this forelorn little "lost child" victim act, like I should feel sorry for her and rescue the confused lost little puppy? (I guess she was just magically expecting me to continue to play the role that I had played in the relationship, even though she had treated me with such cruelty with a replacement and abandonment). It was quite bizarre to say the least. Kind of like each situation was in its own little box and the boxes had no thread of connection.

It caused me an immense amount of pain... .but... .high fives... .I did't play her game. It was not easy.  I always moved away from that lost-puppy act as fast as I could without interacting. I was able to avoid the triangulation attempt, if that's what they were? It was all so totally disconcerting and disturbing.

[enlighten me]

The biggest give away for a sociopath in my opinion is a lack of fear. There may be co morbid traits but in my unprofessional opinion BPD and sociopath cant be co morbid as pwBPD are ultimately afraid whereas sociopaths arent.

[Infared]

The biggest give away for a sociopath in my opinion is a lack of fear. There may be co morbid traits but in my unprofessional opinion BPD and sociopath cant be co morbid as pwBPD are ultimately afraid whereas sociopaths arent.

Afraid of being alone. EVER.

[BorisAcusio]

Again, this isn't an excuse for cruelty, disrespect, abuse, or any of those things. We all have to take responsibility for ourselves. But it does help explain why people with BPD can come across like sociopaths sometimes, with a lack of empathy or remorse. Borderlines are capable of empathy and remorse, but not necessarily consistently.

From the available clinical literature and anecdotal experience, I highly doubt that they are capable of remorse without redefining the word. They may feel regret, which is basically, as a renowned author put it “a distress over a desire unfulfilled", they may feel shame, but guilt and remorse are closely related, higher level emotions, not experienced in the paranoid-schizoid position.

You're spot on with empathy.

As Kiera says, people with BPD are nearly always in emotional overload, encumbered by negative painful feelings constantly begging for attention. So when there seems to lack empathy, it's not a deficit so much as a complication of trying to pay attention to your feelings and desires when, like a small child, they're so consumed by their own.

Prior research indicates that although BPD patients might not be more physiologically reactive to emotional cues in general, they might show increased emotional vulnerability if borderline-specific themes are addressed and comorbid PTSD is present (Limberg et al., 2011). In particular stimuli inducing perception of rejection or abandonment are able to elicit arousal and strong negative emotions such as anger and rage in BPD (Berenson et al., 2011; Limberg et al., 2011; Renneberg et al., 2012). Therefore, future studies should use these stimuli to assess social cognition under varying arousal and emotional conditions and in different social contexts.

Anxiety5's analogy is worth reading.

[jhkbuzz]

The disorder does a number on ones brain, because its hard to process the split personality effect... .how do you reconcile the nice loving person they can be and this? I can literally feel my brain short-circuiting trying to hold the opposing polarities.

Oh, YES.  Posted about this brain-splitting experience not too long ago:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=271143.0

[jhkbuzz]

From a psychological standpoint a person in my opinion cannot be a true sociopath if they have "comorbid" BPD

They say there can be some crossover but BPD is characterized by extreme, intense emotions, ASPD on the other hand basically do not have emotions. The disorders can surprisingly produce similar effects but they are basically at odds with their core symptoms.

yes makes sense... .

Sociopaths DOMINATE Borderlines in relationships because they quickly figure out the borderlines emotional weaknesses and triggers and they are more skilled at manipulation and will just exploit the borderlines weaknesses mercilessly to their own end.

He has a side that is like this. But also emotional, infact emotional dis-regulation describes him well. he likes to dominate and be in control, and he triggered my abandonment stuff like crazy, but he had also times of intense and real vulnerability and abandonment issues of his own. However thee have been times in which he switched into this cold and callous persona. Very abusive when he switched to this mode. Anyway, the mind boggles to contain all this crazy. I have been very alone and lonely the past few months, while also busy dealing with some major work and school related matters, but at least things were normal.

I dont know, now I am feeling very agitated... .like some fear ... .need to take a look at why I am feeling frightened.

":)etached protector"?  Look up Jeffrey Young's schema therapy and schema "modes"

[christin5433]

Yesterday I had the pleasure of breaking NC after 50 days, due to a FB notification to a group unBPD-ex runs that I did not even remember being a part of since it was inactive since 2011. He posted something in there about my illness (I have a stress related chronic illness) as if he were an expert in it and mentioning the treatment I use as a success story. First post to this group since 2011. Likely designed to get my attention. It worked because it reall rattled me and I ended up going on his FB ( I have defriended him but he currently seems to have everything set to public) and I had the joy of reading two months of horrible stuff, including him asking people how to get rid of his relationship status, like it was a piece of garbage (we were together all together 3 years plus two years prior to that as friends and we were engaged twice, you would expect a modicum of respect). And he then set his status as "free agent" and was bragging like a low life sleaze ball about his new single life. Also... .seems there was not one iota of grief, sadness, remorse, nothing. The dude is having the time of his life. So then why the illness post? Anyway I ended up emailing him and giving him a piece of my mind, I even told him you know, to get rid of relationship status, how about you disappear for a month and see if it goes away on its own, seems to work for you in real life, maybe you should give it  a try. I was pissed. This guy has taken so much from me, I supported him so much how dare he be this disrespectful in front of communal friends.

I came away from the whole thing feeling like I had stepped into dirt and that I needed a bath to get cleansed from the experience. The irony is I think he misses me and that he was prepping for a recycle. On the plus side, I was kind of pining away for the dude and I guess that killed any longing dead in its tracks. In some ways I am grateful as now I feel like I can really close the door. This person is just too messed up to deserve any more of my energy or time. And I know in theory they are mentally ill, but where does the line between mental illness and cruel evil behavior lie? Everybody has a choice, no matter how broken... .I dunno. Some of this to me is just despicable behavior. Maybe the 50 days NC broke the bond enough for me to have some perspective.

Anyway, I came away feeling that this guy is just someone I dont even know. Sleaze and nasty are the words that come to mind. And vindictive.

Oh well I give up trying to understand. My mind does not understand this, its just too messed up.

I too was towards the end wondering if my ex had sociopathic traits? Kinda weird to even think to ask yourself about someone your in a r/s ? But w this type of r/s hey it's normal to ask yourself those type of questions. I wish I was asking more questions like I think my partner has a cold or needs to go to the gym ? But not when we exist in insanity. Sociopaths traits of no guilt , risk takers at any cost, fake expressions , can't love ... .

The who FB smear you read about sounds just plain disgustingly mean. I got off FB the moment she left due to it being her forum ... I'd be like in a arena for her to publically smear me even more. Trust me even w me able to not be in the public eye for humiliation she still found ways to smear me. I think this now because I'm more on the recovery part 2 months out. I'm still in hurt but differently I think Im seeing that if I don't protect myself by just staying clear of these crazy types I'm setting myself up for another living wreck of a existence. The fact that a person you love and care for publically humiliates shows no grace or empathy for the r/s you had plus its immature and people see through it. Even if they go along they can see they are vindictive and probably say, hey did u see what dude put on FB... .man he is not over his r/s and what a loser. Be glad to be on ur path to recover. A sincere person doesn't create this much drama. A needy person does. Good luck

[Restored2]

Thank you Restored... .that's good feedback and soothing words too. I dont think he will be contacting me right away, I smashed him pretty hard with my words. In hate this dynamic, its like you get to the point where you just want them to leave you alone, but you also still love them and miss them very much... .but its like eating a cherry with a worm in it and a worm that bites.

Anyway I think I am going to make myself a cup of chamomile tea.

You're welcome, Ridingthewaves.  Glad to be of any help.  It is not an easy dynamic to have to deal with.  I sure wish a cup of chamomile tea would solve my relationship problems... .

[Ridingthewaves]

You guys were right, he just emailed me and asked me if I would like to talk

[vortex of confusion]

You guys were right, he just emailed me and asked me if I would like to talk

Don't do it! It sounds like he is needing some supply. He will likely sound really great and suck you in and before you know it things are right back where they were. I have repeated this pattern with my lover several times. I am not talking to him right now and want to be done with it all. I am not sure what to do because I do feel drawn to him for some weird reason. I am trying to figure out what the draw is so I can stop it. I want to be able to walk away from him and never look back.

[Restored2]

Hey ridingthewaves.  This sounds like a dangerous proposition to even re-engage with him.  Are you sure you want to go down this toxic road with him again?

[Ridingthewaves]

I know, dangerous proposition... .I feel like I want to cry and throw up at the same time... .throw up from nerves and agitation... .I am feeling like I 3 years old right now :-( ... .and these this fear feeling again :-(

[vortex of confusion]

I know, dangerous proposition... .I feel like I want to cry and throw up at the same time... .throw up from nerves and agitation... .I am feeling like I 3 years old right now :-( ... .and these this fear feeling again :-(

   

If you are not comfortable, then don't talk to him. Those feelings that you are having are there for a reason. They are alarm bells. Listen to them.

[Ridingthewaves]

Going for a walk to clear my head. Thank you for the hugs. This is sure a testing time :-(

[Restored2]

Hey Ridingthewaves.  When you pass the test you will be stronger and better for it.  Take control of your destiny by not giving into his control over you.

[HappyNihilist]

I'm sorry, waves, I know that's nerve-wracking! 

I know, dangerous proposition... .I feel like I want to cry and throw up at the same time... .throw up from nerves and agitation... .I am feeling like I 3 years old right now :-( ... .and these this fear feeling again :-(

   

If you are not comfortable, then don't talk to him. Those feelings that you are having are there for a reason. They are alarm bells. Listen to them.