Boundaries... what are they and how do they work

[Being Mindful]

Dear Survive, I know you have been asking about boundaries. I haven't responded yet as I've been thinking on this. Mik and I have been talking about how I did boundaries and when I have a bit more time, I'd like to give a thought out explanation of what they are for me. I'm thinking it might be helpful for others too. I haven't forgotton about your question. I just want to put together a response that has some detail. I'll get back to you on it but in the mean time here are some high level thoughts on it.

Some misconceptions I think are:

1. Boundaries are confused with behavioral contracts that we make with our kids. This is not boundaries.

2. Boundaries are not intended to modify or correct their behavior (although they have been effective for my d. to learn from).

3. Boundaries are not an intended punishment for others.

Boundaries are:

1. Are for you and are value based.

2. Exist in our everyday lives with all relationships, we are mostly not aware of them, until you stop to think how you interact with everyone in your life.

Boundaries for me:

1. Helped to re-establish my well-being.

2. Helped to shift the power back.

3. Helped me to then begin working on other skills.

4. Were protection for me and my other healthy family members.

5. Demonstrated to our younger nonBPD.d how boundaries are effective in how she interacts with her BPD.sister.


So, there is a start. I'd encourage others to post how boundaries have been helpful to them.

Being Mindful

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Reality]

Being Mindful,

Your post is very important, I think.

Boundaries re-connect us with our selves, don't they? 

The trauma of living with a pwBPD disconnects us from our values.  We become Picasso paintings, fragmented.

Boundaries mean being centred, more focused, more certain and determined.

Reality

[mikmik]

BeingMindful,

My first steps were taken, as I have stated on other posts, due to a lot to your encouragement.  I for one, imagined myself as a valuable human being, with needs that are OK to take front seat to dd's needs at a given moment.  I have begun tending to my spiritual needs.  I have done some very strong self care in the forms of a massage and pedicure.  I have covered my gray hair for a more youthful look.  I have been back to the gym three times while on vacation.  I have gone to lunch and to dinner with a friend.  I have told a couple of people how hard things are with dd.  Will this last?  Don't know.  But so far, it feels pretty OK.

Each in and of themselves are small, but important steps.  Bu the most important thing, in devising a boundary with dd, is that I deserve something good in my life, and it is OK for me to have some bits and pieces of happy in my life.  Is this detatching with love?  Begin with a boudary.  It is powerful.

mik

[lbjnltx]

I would like to add to the concept of boundaries :

Boundaries protect our relationships

[Kate4queen]

Boundaries help you rediscover your 'self' and separate you from the craziness of the BPD world. I'm still working on the constant reinforcement of them and my son's constant need to pick away at the.

[Reality]

Hi everyone,

What are some examples of boundaries one might have?

Reality

[twojaybirds]

boundaries keep me in check as to what I will or will not tolerate

[qcarolr]

The #1 value-boundary in my home is to treat others with kindness and respect. If you are unable to do this then time out is required. If you cannot do time on your own, then others in the home can ask you to take time out. Sometimes the ones being disrepected have to leave the area to give the out of contol one time out. Over time this is working better and better.

All the other boundaries and behavior 'contracts' fall under the umbrella of this one. I am unable to be consistent with it - so I take lots of time outs - due to others actions and due to my own. DD26 knows if she cannot regain self-control I will call the police for the ultimate time out. I have called them before. Currently she calms down when I walk away - and she is not allowed to follow me. I am better able to stay calm and not rage back at her. DD's episodes of rage are miuch less frequent, usually triggered by bf's actions, and I just don't hang around to defend myself against her projections of blame. I can even sit quietly in the same room with her, offer to listen, and she can regain her composure. I just have to keep my cool. And she is on probation with a one year jail sentence on her head -a great motivator for her to get it back together. Also not using drugs while on probation. Hope she can retain some of these positive skills when out from under this outside authority. She has also been evicted from our house, and knows I will do this again if needed. Those were such hard, hard times in our home. Detachment with anger and resentment did lead to me to learning about detachment with love (Al Anon principle).

Gd knows how to take a time out as well. And even though it impacts her, she does talk about it all with me later. Can only pray that we are each learning new skills along the way. She is able to go to her room and shut the door - sometimes I walk her to her room. She can go outside or to a neighbors, and has done this in the past. She seems to get that her mommy is able to get her self-control back and always says she is sorry later. This is a new behavior from DD in past few months - to acknowlege her responsiblity and to get that it came from her emotions with bf actions.  Gd is learning many good things from all this as it loops around.

Dh has the hardest time with the walking away or staying in the space calm and quiet - still feels like faliure/loss of power/giving in with him. Takes lots and lots of self-validation and validation from others to get to place where can really own my values in the face of extreme behaviors of others. Dh is at least able to talk about the principles later - progress is being made.

Now sometimes I am the one in an over-emotional state. I am more of complainer -whiny - than rager. Thanks to meds that work for my bipolar and lots of work over the years. It took me a long time to get to where I am today - remembering this gives me more patience with DD's learning curve. And reconnecting with my spiritual needs over the past year has been a great boost to this process - has allowed me to forgive myself which leads to forgiveness of others.

Wish I could say all this with fewer words.

qcr  

[qcarolr]

And I have a card on my wall by my desk - maybe these are boundaries. I called them goals back in Nov 2009:

Raise gd in a healthy environment

Live a peaceful life

Help DD help herself - letting go

Maybe these are value statements that the boundaries grew out of.

I did not know the language of 'validation' 'detachment with love' 'values based boundaries' or understand what BPD was back then. I had just taken out a restraining order for gd and I against DD while she was in jail 3 days after bad fight with bf. 65 days in jail, then homeless for almost 2 years. I cried for first 6 months. Hard choices - If I had chance to do it again, would I have made different choices with all the skills I have learned since then?

qcr  

[Survive2012]

Thank you very much, Being Mindful.

I really need to understand well these boundaries. Everything is still new for me.

I will continue reading as long as you find the answers and the explanations.

Thank you very much for what you are doing for all of us!

Have a good day,

Survive

[Survive2012]

Walking away is something I also do when my son15 gets violent. But I don't walk away when my eldest 18 is around because I fear that if I am not there, my 15yo will start the violence with eldest18.

Have you other examples of boundaries?

Thanks,

Survive

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[qcarolr]

I left out the second step with the walking away - at least in my current situation. I need to come back when things have calmed down, and if DD is open to it, and use my validation skills to work through some of the painful things with DD. This was so impossible not that long ago. As I practice validation - get myself into a quieter, centered place (wisemind) then I am able to be sincerely validating of the issues tossed out in the anger and rage.

Boundaries, at least for me, only work when enveloped in validation.

qcr  

[heronbird]

Oh my gosh  

Not that word again, haha,boundaries, someone needs to write a whole book on just this topic dont they.

We have to have them but they dont work. Well some do, I guess it will be different for everyone. They are just a nightmare for us, when dd was living at home anyway.

I think telling someone who has a dd/ds with BPD that they have to have boundaries is a bad thing. My older dd kept telling me that, as she did psychology at uni, she said it works really well to have boundaries so I kept trying and it was so hard it was making things so much worse, its like saying to someone with a baby, you have to breast feed yet there is no milk and it hurts like nothing else each time you try, then it does not work and it makes you feel a failure and useless. I didnt need that when I was going through multiple suicide attempts and sitting in hospital every few weeks all night long and not getting any sleep.

(not me doing the suicide attempts) |iiiijust in case you were wondering.

You know the funny thing. When we first took dd to a P, after a while, his diagnosis was that we had too many boundaries, yes can you believe that, hahaha, I said I would like to have boundaries. She was and still is a nightmare to say no to. Fortunatly, I dont have that responsibility now, her dh does, good luck with that one haha

[mikmik]

Reality,

My newest boundary is to do something nice for myself, and not succomb to my dd119 saying she needs me at home because she is not feeling well.  She is an adult woman.  She is in bed sleeping.  I had plans, the first time in MONTHS to go out with a friend, when both of our schedules aligned.  I got home an hour and a half later than I would normally.  She blew up, and told her T how I don't take care of her when she is sick.  I was feeling fearful of this when I was out, but I stayed and talked about what was going on at home, why I isolated myself.  My friend told me, all of our mutual friends have ___ going on, things they don't want to talk about.  Noone has it easy, noone is burden free.  She told me I should not isolate myself from our group.  In fact when they get together once a month, they talk about a lot of stuff, and I don't have to talk about my kid if I don't want to.  She invited me back.  Told me I needed to be in the group again.  I realized that it was true.  And the world did not end because I went out for me, and was not there to watch dd sleep. The sun rose in the morning.  I am sure she will bring it up, and I will tell her, just as she had needs, so do I.


   That is my new boundary.

mik

[Being Mindful]

Excellent mik!

[Being Mindful]

Oh my gosh  

Not that word again, haha,boundaries, someone needs to write a whole book on just this topic dont they.

We have to have them but they dont work. Well some do, I guess it will be different for everyone. They are just a nightmare for us, when dd was living at home anyway.

I think telling someone who has a dd/ds with BPD that they have to have boundaries is a bad thing. My older dd kept telling me that, as she did psychology at uni, she said it works really well to have boundaries so I kept trying and it was so hard it was making things so much worse, its like saying to someone with a baby, you have to breast feed yet there is no milk and it hurts like nothing else each time you try, then it does not work and it makes you feel a failure and useless. I didnt need that when I was going through multiple suicide attempts and sitting in hospital every few weeks all night long and not getting any sleep.

(not me doing the suicide attempts) |iiiijust in case you were wondering.

You know the funny thing. When we first took dd to a P, after a while, his diagnosis was that we had too many boundaries, yes can you believe that, hahaha, I said I would like to have boundaries. She was and still is a nightmare to say no to. Fortunatly, I dont have that responsibility now, her dh does, good luck with that one haha

Dear Heron,

Everyone's situations are so different and everyone needs to find what works for them. When you think about boundaries, we all have them because we all have things in our lives that we value. Think about your relationships with friends and what are the values in those relationships. What do you tolerate with them? What do you love about them? What would you do if one of those value based boundaries are violated?

My d. actually got worse when I first started to enforce my boundaries. After consistent application over a long period of time, she learned from them. It was horrible when she got worse but I was committed to my values. What I learned from this is that my boundaries can't be wrong... .they are mine. My boundaries can't not work, I get to choose how to react when the line has been crossed. They can't not work because my boundary does not control the actions of my d.

Boundary:

I work outside the home and I am committed to my job. My job is important to my well-being, to my family, to my financial situation. I value my job. I do not disrupt my job for numerous, interupting personal phone calls.  How do I apply this... .when a friend calls on my cell during my work day, I might answer it, I might not. My d. use to call multiple times, over and over. Out of fear and her "control" of me, I'd answer it every single time. It disrupted my day, my work, etc. My boundary was being crossed... .I value my job. When I first enforced my boundary, she raged even more. I had to live with my anxiety, learn that I can't control her behavior or what action she will take when I don't answer her call. When I first started to enforce my boundary, I would take the call and tell her... .I'm at work, I can't talk, I have responsibilities, I value my job. I will call you after 5:00. She screamed, she yelled, she told her t. horrible things about me not responding or taking care of her. She called back over and over. Each time my message was the same. Then, I stopped answering her calls completely. Over time, this behavior stopped. I can now take a call from her during my work day. She is quick to the point and we end the call. My boundary I enforced and then was able to scale it back to where she respects me and my job.

That is a long example and how I enforced it.

Others:

I value myself and I will not tolerate verbal or physical abuse.

I value myself and I cannot harm myself by trying to fix her.

I value peace in my home.

I value safety in my home.

All of the above, I would not tolerate with a friend... .even if she was ill.

Being Mindful

[qcarolr]

I have this on my wall by my desk at home - "Parents' Bill of Rights". It seems to fit this topic - statements of values and examples of boundaries to fit them. It was posted here a long time ago. The link is to the NAMI group in greater Chicago.

www.namigc.org/content/fact_sheets/familyInfo/parentbillofrights.pdf

Here are the bullets points that seem to be values to me.

1. The right to survive.

2. The right to privacy, to lead their own lives.

3. The right not to go broke.

4. The right not to be psychologically abused.

5. The right not to be physically abused.

6. The right to be parents to their other children.

7. The right to express their emotions.

8. The right to respite and vacations.

9. The right to receive help too.

10. The right to set house rules.

What do you all think?

qcr  

[cfh]

Love them all but 3, 8 and 9 are my favorites!

[twojaybirds]

Nice wall of boundaries

I might add

A right to open a bottle of champagne on New Year's Eve and celebrate the passing of 2012 and the hope for internal peace in 2013   

[mikmik]

I like all of qcr's "rights".  It is good to be reminded that it is OK to have these things in our lives, and that we deserve them!

So, when I am stressed, I will have a new way of counting to 10!  I will recite qcr's list in my head!  Whoo Hoo.

Mik

[qcarolr]

Just a reminder - I am only a messenger. This awesome list comes from NAMI. Helps me accept that I am a real preson with real needs tha count.

Happy New Year.   

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jbmom]

We had a class on boundaries just recently, and I had it all wrong.

As mentioned above boundaries are for us, not them... they do not change others behavior. It is a limit we set for our selves to basically walk away from the chaos. It is not a punishment or retaliation, it can sound like if you do... .  I will... .  

My boundary.

If you yell at me, I will leave the room.

If you curse, I will not respond to you.

If you through your clean clothes in with your dirty ones, I will not re-wash them.

Its a limit to protect my sanity and self respect.  I find it can't be a big expectation. That won't work with us yet.

[lbjnltx]

I would like to add to the concept of boundaries :

Boundaries protect our relationships

Now that I have a few minutes I want to expand on this a little.

Boundaries allow us to stay in relationship w/others... .  they create the safe space to be able to stay connected while protected.  In this safe space we can have calm minds to make decisions and plans for responding as opposed to reacting.

Does this ring true with anyone else?  What would you like to add?

[Survive2012]

It is still difficult for me to understand boundaries. I am trying hard. They are rules one gives himself to stay "alive" in the big storm BPD brings in families?

Survive

[lbjnltx]

Hello survive2012

Boundaries need to be created based on what we value enough to protect.

What do you value? 

Here is an example:

I value my emotional stability.  If my emotional stability is threatened by someone... .  anyone... .  I will remove myself from that situation until it is safe to return to that person's presence.  In order for it to be safe to return to that person's presence I need to be calm and so do they.  I would state my boundary like this:

When I feel threatened by rage or abuse I will take a time out.  When we are both calm we can come back together and revisit this discussion.

Will the other person allow me to take a time out?  Maybe not... .  maybe they will follow me around the house and continue to rage and verbally abuse me... .  at this point I will hold firm to my boundaries and remove myself from the home for my protection and the protection of the relationship.  I will do this everytime.  Perhaps the other person will learn that I am firm in my boundary and allow me to take a time out... .  even if they don't I will not change my boundary.  Boundaries need to be well thought out and planned for... .  carefully.  Being consistant is key.  If we are inconsistant it sends a message to the other person that if they push hard enough or long enough we will give in and that sets up a pattern for escalating behaviors.

Does that help?

[Survive2012]

Oh YES, Ibjnitx,

Thanks! I understand now, I think!

The boundary you mention will be mine too. I need it when my son gets violent at me.

I can't think of another one right now, but i am going to try.

Thank you very much for your help!

Survive

[lbjnltx]

Hello survive2012

Boundaries need to be created based on what we value enough to protect.

What do you value? 

Here is an example:

I value my emotional stability.  If my emotional stability is threatened by someone... .  anyone... .  I will remove myself from that situation until it is safe to return to that person's presence.  In order for it to be safe to return to that person's presence I need to be calm and so do they.  I would state my boundary like this:

When I feel threatened by rage or abuse I will take a time out.  When we are both calm we can come back together and revisit this discussion.

Will the other person allow me to take a time out?  Maybe not... .  maybe they will follow me around the house and continue to rage and verbally abuse me... .  at this point I will hold firm to my boundaries and remove myself from the home for my protection and the protection of the relationship.  I will do this everytime.  Perhaps the other person will learn that I am firm in my boundary and allow me to take a time out... .  even if they don't I will not change my boundary.  Boundaries need to be well thought out and planned for... .  carefully.  Being consistant is key.  If we are inconsistant it sends a message to the other person that if they push hard enough or long enough we will give in and that sets up a pattern for escalating behaviors.

Does that help?

Oh YES, Ibjnitx,

Thanks! I understand now, I think!

The boundary you mention will be mine too. I need it when my son gets violent at me.

I can't think of another one right now, but i am going to try.

Thank you very much for your help!

Survive

How would the above boundary protect the relationship?

In my situation ... .  when raged at and verbally abused I would initially react negatively, become unsure of what to say or how to say it, say something hurtful and the situation would escalate.  From these situations I began to develop an anxiety disorder and would walk on eggshells.  The safe space and assurance that boundaries created gave me a place to be calm, choose how to respond instead of react, and not cause escalation/damage to the relationship further. 

As time went on I learned skills (using SET, validation)that keep me engaged w/an emotionally dysregulated person longer so that I can help her work towards wisemind.  Over time trust was built and now she and I can converse about anything and everything in constructive ways partly due to me and partly due to her having skills too.

Did my boundary change? No... .  I just don't feel that my emotional stability is threatened any longer.  The boundary is still in place should I feel that way again.  This boundary protects our relationship.

lbj

[Being Mindful]

I would like to add to the concept of boundaries :

Boundaries protect our relationships

Now that I have a few minutes I want to expand on this a little.

Boundaries allow us to stay in relationship w/others... .  they create the safe space to be able to stay connected while protected.  In this safe space we can have calm minds to make decisions and plans for responding as opposed to reacting.

Does this ring true with anyone else?  What would you like to add?

This is so true. I was going to go NC with my d until I decided to focus on me within the relationship. Once I had boundaries, I became healthier, stronger. Our relationship is better than ever, even though her BPD is ever present. Once I understood my boundaries and enforced them I was much calmer, not reactive and it opened the door for me to have empathy which turned into being able to use other skills. Our relationship is intact, it is challenged at times, but we come back to center much quicker now. We are now in a place to be able to have a relationship with her, we have detached with love, we still watch in pain as she continues to struggle and fall, but we keep using our skills which help her. We are now a place of comfort for her, where communication, sharing, love is probably her only place in her world that is comfortable, maybe even tolerable for her.

I can't stress enough what boundaries have meant to us.

[twojaybirds]

I know I have lots of boundaries not just with my dd.  They all help me stay healthy in each situation.

work:  I will not work past a certain hour

          I will not work on weekends or vacations

         I will take my lunch break every day

knitting:

       I will not knit for money

       I will not give knit items as personal gifts

       I will not allow my yarn stash to grow out of its current space

good friends:

      I will say no if I cant honor a request

      I will ask for their help or support

      I will be honest

dd:

      I will offer help when I can (emotionally and physically)

      I will not judge

      I will not pry or ask questions 

      I will say no if I cant honor a request

      I will be honest

         

[Survive2012]

Dear Being Mindful,

You say you enforced your boundaries. How did you enforce them? Are there two steps? (In the first one you create the boundary, in the second one you enforce it?)

Survive

[Being Mindful]

Dear Being Mindful,

You say you enforced your boundaries. How did you enforce them? Are there two steps? (In the first one you create the boundary, in the second one you enforce it?)

Survive

Hi Survive,

Yes, everytime my boundary is being challenged, I enforce it. See my previous example which is a bit long (sorry). If I am being verbally abused, I remove myself. If she is blaming me, I remove myself. If I feel threatened or afraid for my well-being, I will remove myself or call 911 depending on the circumstances. I enforce the boundary when it is being challenged. If she becomes physical, I call 911.

While my boundary is being challenged, I state my value, the action I am taking and assure her that we can come back another time when it is appropriate... .  appropriate time could be; when calm, when I'm done with work. It all depends on the boundary value. The enforcement is always the same, consistent in my action otherwise she will learn that she can break it again and again. This is why it is important to understand your boundaries very well, so that you protect them ALWAYS.

Once I determine I had to define, understand and enforce my boundaries, it became very easy for me. Almost immediately, I felt an internal peace, a shift of power, I felt strong like I was finding myself after years of suffering and pain. It was very difficult for her and in fact she got worse initially. I took that as a sign that something was working and not that I should back off.

For reasons I don't completely understand boundaries was my first step that created change in me such that I could then work on other skills like validation.

Is everything great, no. She still has major challenges, but we see a change for the better in our relationship and that she is functioning at a better place... .  and so are we.

[Survive2012]

Thanks very much, Being Mindful. Now it is clear.

Thanks a lot for your help.

I just see that I HAD boudaries and that, one after the other, I lost them.

The situation is worse now.

I find myself in trouble as my husband said I was too hard when I had boundaries. This is why I lost them. Now, is it too late? Can I start them again?

I had the boundary that, when my son insulted me, I would not let him my computer.

Have a good evening,

Survive

[lbjnltx]

It is never too late to set boundaries.

Think carefully before you set a boundary... .  what are the possible consequences that you will have to deal with?  are you willing to protect your boundary no matter what?

Having the boundary that you won't listen to insults is a good boundary to have.

How does denying access to the computer protect you and your boundary?  Are they closely related?  Tying unrelated consequences to defending your boundaries may cause confusion or water down the value you are trying to protect.  Remember, the boundaries are about you and defending them is what you can do ... .  what you have the power to control... .  self.

If you are looking for ways to motivate your son to regulate his emotions that is good. Positive reinforcement is more effective than negative consequences... .  that is a different subject all together.

[Being Mindful]

I'll add to what lbj said... .  my boundaries both what they are and how I protect them are all about me and protecting my values and my relationships. They are not about my d. either in trying to punish her (take away the computer) or to control her behavior. Although over time, she has learned that I have value based boundaries. Together, we have a healthier relationship.

I think one misconception on boundaries is that we tend to confuse them with contracts. Contracts that have consequences in attempt to hold them accountable and change behavior. That is not boundaries.

Keep focus that boundaries are all about you. Isn't that nice? Doesn't that make you feel good that thru these you can take care of yourself, you can exit when you determine that your boundary has been crossed? And through all of this, you can find a healthier, stronger you and have a better relationship? 

Your questions are good. Keep asking them. It is generating good information here.

[qcarolr]

How would the above boundary protect the relationship?

In my situation ... .  when raged at and verbally abused I would initially react negatively, become unsure of what to say or how to say it, say something hurtful and the situation would escalate.  From these situations I began to develop an anxiety disorder and would walk on eggshells.  The safe space and assurance that boundaries created gave me a place to be calm, choose how to respond instead of react, and not cause escalation/damage to the relationship further. 

As time went on I learned skills (using SET, validation)that keep me engaged w/an emotionally dysregulated person longer so that I can help her work towards wisemind.  Over time trust was built and now she and I can converse about anything and everything in constructive ways partly due to me and partly due to her having skills too.

Did my boundary change? No... .  I just don't feel that my emotional stability is threatened any longer.  The boundary is still in place should I feel that way again.  This boundary protects our relationship.

Sounds like figuring out boundaries around being emotionally or physically abused is a primary value. It is for me too. What is different in the past few months so this is working so much better in my household? I have had this value, and tried boundaries with it for a long time with little success? Even though I still react emotionally at first, I can walk away and walk back, sit down, remain quiety, let DD speak her piece no matter how loud. Then things get quiet and then we can actually talk.

Am I more consistent in my responses? Yes, though not perfect.

Did things get worse before they got better? Yes, much worse for everyone.

Am I better managing my bipolar II disorder, so can better maintain a calmer self? Yes, went back on my meds and have increased them last spring.

Did it help that I took a break from the physical presence when DD had crossed this boundary in front of gd7 when she was 4? I got restraining order to keep DD away. Calling police did not seem to be making a difference. She always came back from ER psych eval within a few hours with increased sense of power over us.

We allowed DD to return to our home when she chose to get out of meth intense r/s with homeless bf/protector (a 20 month r/s). We chose to set limits on raging behaviors but with few other expectations. She could smoke pot with her medical mj license and drink her malt liquor - both legal - as long as not effecting anyone else in the house. Immeditate responses to raging - police, ER with psych eval.; limits on contact with gd (ie. no unsupervised time; being taken out of neighborhood by dh or myself and dropped on the street.

DD has been under court monitoring since end of Feb arrest for DUI - not doing anything more intense than pot Feb-Oct, not doing even pot now and fro 24 - 48 months conviction for DWAI. Court can put her in jail for violation of probation for one year. She does not want to go to jail - taking risks with her probation are hers alone.

Many of her extreme rages in past 10 years I believe were driven by cocaine or meth. I have been able to listen to some 'confessions' from her, without judgement, in the past couple months that have confirmed some of my guesses. She has great pride in stopping the cocaine on her own and not returning to it in Mar 2007 when 8 week pregnancy confirmed (she had lots of cocaine related problems with her menstrual cycle and thought she could not get pregnant). Now she even wants to stop cigs. - she has tried replacing pot with more nicotine and it is making her sick  She is actually trying to get what she needs with rx meds from mental health center. Point of this ramble:  :)D is in a more stable state of being past 10 months so she is open to learning, to questioning herself, to listening, to responding not reacting. She has been moving in this direction since Jun2011 when she returned home - but was still an occasional meth user IMHO due to raging episodes prior to the DUI arrest in Feb.

So I think when I detached from her, yet stayed connected in limited ways at first, I was able to help myself. As I was able to practice - model - better ways of coping for her, she was able to respond to me instead of react. This has been a gradual process starting with dropping the RO after 6 months in 2010. I am in awe of the changes in all of us in our household, including bf"M". For real  change to stick, it every single member of our household has had to make changes in how we interact, think, and treat each other.


lbj can say things with so many fewer words  I think I am trying to illustrate the same message.

qcr  

[Survive2012]

Thank you Ibj, Being Mindful and Qcr!

It's getting clearer: no contracts, nothing to do with 15yo son permission or not to use something etc.

Certainly, the boundary to walk away when abused is a vital one.

Which other boundaries do you have that are linked to your safety?

Thanks so much for helping!

 

Survive

[heronbird]

I think it is important for our boundaries to be as few as possible, also very consistent is important too, I notice pwBPD thrive on structure, even though you would hardly believe it.

One day, last year, dd had new bf, we had heard he was a druggie and lots or worrying things about him, never met him, dd rings us, says she wants to borrow £10, dh said shed have to come home for it as we hadnt seen her for ages. She came home and she was off her head, she couldnt walk, she kept bumping into door frames and falling down the stairs, her speech was slurred, this new bf was sitting upstairs in her bedroom while she was downstairs going mad for this money, she was shouting at us and we told her she couldnt go out in the state she was in as it was dangerous, this one time dh decided to stand in front of door and insist she didnt go out.


Eventually she started hitting and kicking him, we eventually had to let her go, but dh followed her and called the police, we wanted her to go to A&E the police called an ambulance but there were none so none would come , so in desperation we had her arrested for kicking her dad.

This was the worse thing we ever did, we should of just let her go, we were trying to enforce our boundaries and this is how it all went wrong, she could of ended up never speaking to us again and she would of had good reason, The Police were not geared up to take her and they kept her in a cell and were horrible to her, even worse than at A&E. I was so upset, it was the worse outcome. I wish we had just let her go.

Boundaries are a minefield and there is a fine line as with most things with BPD

[lbjnltx]

I think it is important for our boundaries to be as few as possible, also very consistent is important too, I notice pwBPD thrive on structure, even though you would hardly believe it.

I agree heronbird.  If we carefully examine our long list of "boundaries" we usually find that within that list there are really only a few that can be covered seperatly.

Eventually she started hitting and kicking him, we eventually had to let her go, but dh followed her and called the police, we wanted her to go to A&E the police called an ambulance but there were none so none would come , so in desperation we had her arrested for kicking her dad.

This was the worse thing we ever did, we should of just let her go, we were trying to enforce our boundaries and this is how it all went wrong, she could of ended up never speaking to us again and she would of had good reason, The Police were not geared up to take her and they kept her in a cell and were horrible to her, even worse than at A&E. I was so upset, it was the worse outcome. I wish we had just let her go.

Boundaries are a minefield and there is a fine line as with most things with BPD

This is a difficult situation to find oneself in and a good example of why it is so important to have well thought out boundaries.  The question I possed earlier

"are we willing to defend our boundary no matter what" becomes important.

If heronbird had the boundary of "If you become verbally abusive I will leave" would this situation have ever occurred?  If her d is not living at home and her boundary was "If you become verbally abusive towards me you will leave" would this situation have turned out differently?  heronbird found out that defending this boundary with police intervention was too costly for her family.  This is where fear and guilt come into the situation.  heronbird, in retrospect would have let her d go rather than hold her accountable for the physical abuse.  The situation became about punishment rather than protecting her boundary... .  that is how I see it... .  perhaps you see it differently heronbird.  At the point that the decision was made to try to protect her daughter from herself by not allowing her to leave the lines of the boundary became skewed by concern for her d's safety over concern for her/dh's safety.  This is not an easy situation!

A lot of unintended consequences came from the decision to call for help... .  is this anyones' fault?  How much we allow the consequences of our children't choices to come to them is up to each of us to decide.  Was heronbirds' daughter aware of the boundary in advance?  Was she aware that the police would be called if physical abuse occurred?  In a state of drug induced confusion would it have mattered to her d?  Is that relevant?

It is my opinion that to hold someone accountable for respecting my boundaries that person needs to know what my boundaries are.  My boundaries would remain in tact no matter the other person's state of mind.  Our BPDkids need to know that there are consequences for their behaviors... intended and unintended... .  they own them either way.  Do we have the strength and courage to let those consequences come to them?

This is the hardest part of parenting a child with mental illness.  My overall philosphy is that there are lessons to be learned for our kids if we are willing to allow them to come.  It is all so hard!

[Survive2012]

Dear Ibjnitx,

Thank you. Your posts are so important.

I understand why there must be very few boundaries: they must be at the very top of our priority list for survival. It's just like if there is an earthquake and you can only chose one thing to take with you while escaping: you take the most important one.

Therefore, the boundary of "when verbally or physically abused I walk away" seems to me the most precious one to keep and defend no matter what happens next.

I'll have this one and that's it.

And you are right also with the lessons to be learned by our kids.

Have a good day  

Survive

[Thursday]

Hello all and Happy New Year to everyone!

This is such an important discussion.

Survivor, I so identify with your plight in trying to understand what these unfamiliar terms mean, in tying to figure out what to do with a child who is simply NOT doing well.

When first encountering my dBPDSD21 when she was a younger teen, I was at first floored and taken aback at her behavior but certainly had no idea of how to go about interacting with her so I was constantly making mistakes. My mistakes were made worse by my assumption that what was wrong with her was simply bad behavior due to inconsistent, inattentive parenting and over permissiveness due to the family situation (Mom dx with cancer when SD was 7-8 and sick for the next five years, died when SD was 12-13)

A punitive response to my SDs behavior had hardly any impact on her. I've found she can be incredibly tolerant of deprivation AND she will stop at nothing to obtain what she truly feels entitled to- which then evolved sneakiness, lying, theft and an overall worsening of behavior.

And in the process so much damage is done. She lacks the empathy needed to fully "understand" what her behavior does to others. Boundaries are there, amoung other reasons, to protect me from her lack of empathy. My boundaries with my SD, in a very real way, allow us a relationship where she is not given free reign to do further damage. The past is the past, she has been forgiven but I am mindful of what has already transpired as I would be foolish to assume great changes have been made without evidence of such. In other words, today is a new day.

I really need a place to be with her without resentment and hurt and my boundaries free me to have that. My boundaries cut away the confusion of how to act when she crosses them. example- SD has a potty mouth. I prefer that she not f-bomb around me but my boundary about this is for out in public. I don't want to be at a table with her at a restaurant with people around us offended at her language. I've explained to her why it bothers me, I've offered to remind her if she makes a mistake and she knows I'll leave the situation if she continues. It may sound iike this is about her behavior. It is, however, for me. It makes me so uncomfortable to be in this situation because I have empathy for the other people. I can't enjoy myself if this is going on and don't want to be helpless to endure the situation because I can't control her behavior. So, I have a plan for getting myself out of the situation. And she knows exactly what that is.

The natural consequence of my boundary is that SD doesn't like to eat by herself in a restaurant and will have to do so if she choses not to clean up her language. Since she has successfully cleaned up her language in the past I know she can do so and I try to be a cheerleader for her as regards this... .  (I'm so proud of you when you are able to eat a meal and share conversation when you don't cuss! That shows maturity! Your stories are so cute, especially without the f-bombs! You know how uncomfortable it makes me when you curse in public and you didn't and that makes me feel so special, thank you for that!)

My SD is a real sucker for the above and I can do this for her... .  and for me it feels so much better to say uplifting and positive things than to wring my hands as she dysregulates and f-bombs even more until the gray-haired lady at the neighboring table gets up and comes to our table and tells SD she is a disgusting person and they are moving so her grandchild doesn't have to hear her foul-language, with a nasty  glare at me for "raising" such a beast!

Hope this discussion continues!

Thursday

[lbjnltx]

Wonderful post Thursday!  I like how you explain how your boundaries protect the relationship.

lbj

[Survive2012]

Thanks, Thursday,

Another step in learning.

This explains well. It isn't "against" her behavior, it is "for" your relationship!

Thanks so much. You are very helpful!

 Survive

[qcarolr]

A punitive response to my SDs behavior had hardly any impact on her. I've found she can be incredibly tolerant of deprivation AND she will stop at nothing to obtain what she truly feels entitled to- which then evolved sneakiness, lying, theft and an overall worsening of behavior.

Thursday - this so applies to my DD. When we evicted her with RO we believed this would motivate her to get into a program to get off the street. Nothing we were doing was making things "better". She endured an extreme level of deprivation and just basic grossness. Yet, in some way she found herself out there and I see her using these extreme experiences in positive ways with herself and her friends now. ie. she would make a great intake counselor for a recovery or homeless shelter situation - she has developed great compassion. And she is able to set needed boudnaries for herself.

I know this is not everyone's experience - our kids are each a unique mix of genetics and life experineces.

It is my opinion that to hold someone accountable for respecting my boundaries that person needs to know what my boundaries are.  My boundaries would remain in tact no matter the other person's state of mind.  Our BPDkids need to know that there are consequences for their behaviors... intended and unintended... .  they own them either way.  Do we have the strength and courage to let those consequences come to them?

This is the hardest part of parenting a child with mental illness.  My overall philosphy is that there are lessons to be learned for our kids if we are willing to allow them to come.  It is all so hard!

I have learned to be more direct with DD about what is important to me and how I plan to protect this. In the past I just walked away, usually in tears, and avoided the issue - made myself into the victim giving her so much power as the persecutor.

I also realize that her being out of our house was needed for me to get out of the way of her learning from her choices. I was always thinking she could not do it on her own - the guilt driven "i have to do this for her" after all the years of advocating for her in school with her learning disability.

It is easy to get really confused. This is a great topic - so much wisdom here.


gd is begging for my attention - gotta go for now.

qcr  

[lbjnltx]

Thanks, Thursday,

Another step in learning.

This explains well. It isn't "against" her behavior, it is "for" your relationship!

Thanks so much. You are very helpful!

 Survive

Well said Survive!

[frustratedmom]

These kinds of boundaries might all be useful when a child is still at home or wants to be part of or communicate with the family in some way.

When the child only wants a relationship with you on their terms, and threatens no contact if you do not actively support their lifestyle, boundaries are useless except to maintain separation.  Lip service validation may be useful for maintaining a contact with a positive aura, but beyond that it is difficult to maintain a relationship based on true honesty.

FM

[Thursday]

frustratedmom,

I no longer have expectations for the sort of relationship with my SD that would involve the same directness and  honesty I enjoy in my other relationships. It would be nice but I am merely hopeful rather than waiting for this to happen.

SD no longer lives with us but she does give the impression that she wants to maintain a pleasant relationship with me and her father.

Lip service validation... .  ugh... .  I see what you mean in it's stark reality.

None of it is easy, some of it is unpalateable, most of it is unnatural. A lot of it hurts like H3LL.

thursday

[pattyt]

These kinds of boundaries might all be useful when a child is still at home or wants to be part of or communicate with the family in some way.

When the child only wants a relationship with you on their terms, and threatens no contact if you do not actively support their lifestyle, boundaries are useless except to maintain separation.  Lip service validation may be useful for maintaining a contact with a positive aura, but beyond that it is difficult to maintain a relationship based on true honesty.

FM

True... .  so true.

[qcarolr]

These kinds of boundaries might all be useful when a child is still at home or wants to be part of or communicate with the family in some way.

When the child only wants a relationship with you on their terms, and threatens no contact if you do not actively support their lifestyle, boundaries are useless except to maintain separation.  Lip service validation may be useful for maintaining a contact with a positive aura, but beyond that it is difficult to maintain a relationship based on true honesty.

FM

Even with things better with my DD26, she still wants things on her terms. She just doesn't get that from me. I have few expectations for my DD other than she maintain self-control in our house and for her to leave or go to her room if she cannot. She is gone at least half the days during the week including the nights.  You are so right about the desire for a 'relationship based on true honesty' being difficult, if not impossible. If this fantasy has crept into my replies on this post - I apologize.

Sometimes my boundaries do maintain seperation. That is a major consequence. And DD keeps reaching back out to contact again. I am getting better and better an not contacting her when she is gone. And being here for her at MY convenience, not hers.

I cannot imagine the pain for those whose children turn away and never reach out for you again. They have set their own rigid boundaries it seems. Oh the pain of this - brings tears to my eyes and an ache in my heart. This is a risk that is always there for many here.

Hope I am not rattling around in a circle today. qcr  

[Being Mindful]

These kinds of boundaries might all be useful when a child is still at home or wants to be part of or communicate with the family in some way.

When the child only wants a relationship with you on their terms, and threatens no contact if you do not actively support their lifestyle, boundaries are useless except to maintain separation.  Lip service validation may be useful for maintaining a contact with a positive aura, but beyond that it is difficult to maintain a relationship based on true honesty.

Dear FM,

Just something to think about in my experience... .  

My d has not lived at home for over a year and my boundaries still work. I don't like or accept her lifestyle, yet my boundaries still work to keep the relationship in tact. My d. can threaten no contact and I have learned that I cannot control this. Still my boundaries protect me and protect the relationship. In fact, my boundaries have helped to continue learning and growing within our relationship and has allowed her to grow.

Because boundaries have been so valuable, it breaks my heart that you have not experienced the same. They were a tough concept initially for me and I thought no way could one thing be so helpful. Those of us that have had the positive experience could try to help. Is there something we could do to help you out? My heart breaks for you in this regard.

Being Mindful