Do they know?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Problem is, once you realize what's going on in a relationship like this, I think you're too far gone. Too emotionally invested and somehow have to go down with the ship. The pwBPD is ill, and there must be something seriously wrong with me as well

I can relate.

[Ironmanrises]

Problem is, once you realize what's going on in a relationship like this, I think you're too far gone. Too emotionally invested and somehow have to go down with the ship. The pwBPD is ill, and there must be something seriously wrong with me as well

I can relate.

[Mutt]

She was at the right place at the right time for me and I had all of the right vulnerabilites. Hard pill to swallow,  but at the same time, it's really made me take a hard look at myself. I can take that away and grow from it. I can't say the same for her. If there is another lesson learned for myself, it's to trust my intuition and I glossed so many things over inside and outward and I don't mean to be hyper-vigilant. Another girl willing to sleep on the first date with a stranger or sob/sympathy stories is getting shut down right away from myself. I put up with way too much garbage for being a nice, truthful and honest guy. There is a silver lining to all of this if you look inside.

[GreenMango]

I can take that away and grow from it

That's really half the battle in feeling better from all this. 

There is a silver lining to all of this if you look inside.

Very True.

[blurry]

You know another thing that sticks out to me, I'm judgemental, to the point I'm going to hell, guaranteed, i dont have enough lifetimes to change how judgemental i am, but I kept looking at all the red flags and telling myself not to judge, let her past be her past, and go by how she treats me. So I actually thought I was taking some kind of higher road by not judging. Now I realize I need to take being judgemental to a new level, and act on my instincts.

I can think of 5 clear textbook red flags that I saw or knew of inside the first 6 weeks and chose to ignore, 5 red flags that probably eliminate 60 or 70 pct of any potential partners for this woman. I can't imagine there's too many guys out there as dumb as I apparently am.

5 kids from 3 different guys, red flag, self medicates with pills, weed and alcohol, red flag, still living with ex when she initiated the relationship (had reached out to me about 4 times during that relationship to which I never responded to her before), red flag, best friends one of the dirtiest girls I've ever known, red flag, and a couple more I don't even want to mention. Yet she was so absolutely wonderful to me, I chose to ignore all that, and it wasn't even a thing at the time, till her BPD decided to make a surprise appearance, then it all made sense sort of.

I'm suddenly starting to feel guilty talking about my wife this way, especially now that I'm two weeks sober, but its so hard to not want to vent this stuff. I guess I'm looking for validation which I think is a codependant trait, I really better stay away from relationships for a long time I guess.

[clairedair]

I'm suddenly starting to feel guilty talking about my wife this way, especially now that I'm two weeks sober, but its so hard to not want to vent this stuff. I guess I'm looking for validation which I think is a codependant trait, I really better stay away from relationships for a long time I guess.

Hi blurry - I feel this way too but this is the one place where we can vent and we're not judged.  Even better, we get gentle (and not so gentle) nudges to help us move forward from the venting and focus more on our own stuff. 

What I write here is generally the really angry stuff but, bottom line, I don't believe my exH deliberately set out to make my life hell.  I have seen the pain he is in at times and I don't really believe that his recent instant remarriage means that he's now in a place of peace and wholeness.  However, in the past I've been angry for a while then repressed that because I felt guilty - just caused more problems so I vent here rather than let my kids hear me talking about their dad to the postman or anyone else who crosses my path!

I don't like how angry I feel just now - many months after our last split - but I am trying to stay with it more this time and work through it.  This board is a safe place to do that, and I also need the validation of realising others are in very similar situations and feel angry too!

It's interesting that you say that you're judgemental and yet not with your wife.  How do they have us behaving towards them differently?  I'm still trying to work that one out.

[GreenMango]

How do they have us behaving towards them differently? I'm still trying to work that one out.

Another really good question.


Blurry you cracked me up with this:

You know another thing that sticks out to me, I'm judgemental, to the point I'm going to hell, guaranteed, i dont have enough lifetimes to change how judgemental i am, but I kept looking at all the red flags and telling myself not to judge, let her past be her past, and go by how she treats me. So I actually thought I was taking some kind of higher road by not judging. Now I realize I need to take being judgemental to a new level, and act on my instincts.

There's a happy medium here... . the grey area.  Discerning is good.  We all make choices on what will work with us.  People do it all the time - from clothes to what to eat for breakfast to mates.  Judgment has a pretty bad wrap-maybe its discerning?

[goldylamont]

Finally, earlier this year I lurked a bit on a blog & a forum or two where mainly pwBPD hang out. Perhaps due to the anonymity/comradery, I've found that they're more apt to admitting/sharing/discussing.

Of course, it seemed that, although they'd like to be better, they eventually tended to have the attitude of "eff it, I'm this way, oh well, if people don't like it then they can stuff it" -- and joke about it, or change topics and rant & rave about their latest issue/drama/problem (how they're right & everybody else in their offline world is wrong, etc.).


Short answer: Overall, I believe they know (perhaps less so for the younger crowd). But sadly I don't believe many really care in trying to get better, perhaps feeling it's too difficult/waste of time/others should be catering to them/etc.

wow delgato, a little investigative reporting, eh?  yeah this just confirms how i feel about it. obviously while no one would want to have a mental illness to say that my ex wasn't aware of many of her behaviors is preposterous. in fact, i think the more drama she caused, the more pain she inflicted the happier she was. just how her brain worked IMO. at the end of the day, even knowing this doesn't stop me from detaching and ultimately forgiving. however i think it's important to understand that some people continue to do whatever they want, simply because they can, because they haven't hit rock bottom so why care if they keep destroying others in the process? knowing this makes it easier to stay away.

[goldylamont]

My wife was just asking her ex to let her move back in with him, 3 WEEKS AFTER GETTING BACK FROM OUR HONEYMOON, 12 hours after we woke up with no issue, the same night she left. What message does that say to her 5 kids and her friends and family about her? Nothing probably, probably sends a message I'm some sort of horrible guy. Its like they're all playing dumb. Can you imagine her asking him to take her back 3 weeks after getting married, the same day where a petty argument triggered her and caused her to bounce... . and everyones telling me I should of been non- reactive towards that, like a man. It'll be a cold day in hell before I'm non-reactive towards something like that!

couple of things, when you say "... . a petty argument triggered her and caused her to bounce... . "-- i say No. it's wild how powerful their manipulations can be, it wasn't til over a year that i started finding out the depths of the deceptions. i don't know your situation totally, but i doubt some small issue "triggered" her causing the end of your r/s all of the sudden. more than likely she just felt like being with her ex; so then she made a conscious effort to cook up an argument, any argument so that she could use your inevitable reaction to justify what she was going to do. she knew she just wanted to leave and be with this other guy... . but wouldn't want to make herself look bad in the process. it's a simple scarecrow tactic, make up some crap, act crazy and then make you look like the bad guy. it will take you too long to figure out the ruse anyway; and it's worked for her many times in the past, so why not?

your feelings, the children's feelings? they don't mean as much to her than satisfying her need for "passion". it is what it is.

nothing that i'm saying is contradictory to the well informed comments about pwBPD suffering from abandonment fears, shame, etc.--this is the "why", however i think it's important to understand the "what" as well as the "why". understanding this truth as quick as possible can help us heal faster, IMO.

[GreenMango]

It the "how" how it presents, how it manifests, how the actions affect others... . the why is clinical and the how is how you respond or react.

[blurry]

Goldy, I definitely agree, it points towards the passive/agressive type thing they do, or at least mine does. I try not to react for a couple weeks at a time but then finally, what would seem like a non-issue to a healthy couple, triggers me to confront her.

I can't imagine she woke up that day pining for her ex, just can't, but she definitely reacted impulsively towards me and I think going for the ex was her instant idea of a solution, unlike normal adults who take a breather then talk things out.

It all points towards the emotional immaturity, like kids in a playground fighting over a ball or something when one screams to his bestfriend, " you're not me best friend any more, he is!" That's what I think anyway. Maybe I'm just trying to protect my ego here.

[GreenMango]

Blurry it doesn't feel good to invest a lot on a relationship to have the other person not value it or you - then choose someone else.

That ego thing you mentioned isn't uncommon.  It's painful and it brings out feelings of anger and hurt.  Anger being the mask to hurt.  Because this stuff hurts.  There's really no shame in that - people have feelings.

Sometimes looking at the facts of what actually happened - how you were treated, words versus actions etc - help to uncloud these mixed up feelings.

[goldylamont]

It the "how" how it presents, how it manifests, how the actions affect others... . the why is clinical and the how is how you respond or react.

haha, GreenMango, very insightful. i agree that there is also a "how" perspective and this has to do more with our own personal reactions or how this affects us or others, meaning the "how" aspect doesn't have to do with the pwBPD but with us.

for me, understanding more about "what" was going on was very helpful to change "how" i reacted to things. for example, my ex would start fights on purpose to be cruel, so that she could try to make me angry and react. i never thought this was something she was doing on purpose... . but when i finally trusted myself, trusted my gut, i found out "what" she was up to. she was recording our arguments, and when i did all the right things by trying to leave, calming down, refusing to argue or validated her and basically tried to step away--this pissed her off so she would keep provoking me, because she wanted to get me to sound abusive while recording me on her phone. so, me trusting my gut and knowing fully "what" was going on, i was able to call her out on her isht, i was able to not react angrily to her manipulations, i was a better person for it.

this is what i'm saying--calling them out on their manipulations, not saying it to them per se, but understanding "what" they are up to gives us the upper hand, increases our awareness so that we don't fall into the traps they want to set. of course not every argument is manipulative to this degree, but some are.

understanding "what" is going on helps us immensely control "how" we react.  

[goldylamont]

... . I try not to react for a couple weeks at a time but then finally, what would seem like a non-issue to a healthy couple, triggers me to confront her.

i know, this was one of the most damaging things for me too. having to hold back from reacting to her emotional abuse. i think holding things in like this, trying to be the "bigger person" is one of the most hurtful parts of the abuse. because there's no way, ever, to approach the issue in a respectful manner. the ruse is that it's not the issue at all, it's the disrespect or dishonesty surrounding it. for me whatever behavior from her was one thing, but the most damaging to me was her unapologetic, disregulated or dishonest responses to me if I brought up issues (even small ones).

[Ironmanrises]

... . I try not to react for a couple weeks at a time but then finally, what would seem like a non-issue to a healthy couple, triggers me to confront her.

i know, this was one of the most damaging things for me too. having to hold back from reacting to her emotional abuse. i think holding things in like this, trying to be the "bigger person" is one of the most hurtful parts of the abuse. because there's no way, ever, to approach the issue in a respectful manner. the ruse is that it's not the issue at all, it's the disrespect or dishonesty surrounding it. for me whatever behavior from her was one thing, but the most damaging to me was her unapologetic, disregulated or dishonest responses to me if I brought up issues (even small ones).

I had issues with that too in round 2 of relationship.

I too tried to be the bigger person by not reacting... .

Made no difference.

She launched missile after missile regardless.

It didnt matter what i did or didnt do... .

Or said or didnt say... .

Or how understanding i tried to be... .

There was no stopping it.

[goldylamont]

I had issues with that too in round 2 of relationship.

I too tried to be the bigger person by not reacting... .

Made no difference.

She launched missile after missile regardless.

It didnt matter what i did or didnt do... .

Or said or didnt say... .

Or how understanding i tried to be... .

There was no stopping it.

remember this if you ever start blaming yourself for things falling apart. i'm sure you overreacted at times; sure you did things you aren't proud of. it's healthy to own up to this and make sure we don't react in these ways again. however, i think we all know the truth is that the only solution was to end the r/s and go complete NC. i hate seeing people beat themselves up thinking "if only i hadn't said this or done that" that things would have been better. no, you just would have been a nicer doormat 

[GreenMango]

There is a good lesson in all this on how we respond or will respond.

this is what i'm saying--calling them out on their manipulations, not saying it to them per se, but understanding "what" they are up to gives us the upper hand, increases our awareness so that we don't fall into the traps they want to set. of course not every argument is manipulative to this degree, but some are.

How much good is come out engaging this way with a person with a mental illness?   You know the why and the what.  Will one upping them bring on an awakening?

Is there a way to assess your values and match it to actions in this?

Ps almost everyone here has at one time or another stooped to their level.  Engaging in conflict - but get this my guess and experience was doing this alleviated the other persons feelings of mounting anxiety and irritability effectively letting them transfer their emotions to you.  Dysfunctional soothing at its finest.

These aren't the actions of someone well equipped - these are autoresponses from a person who doesn't have healthy coping skills.

[changingme]

I don't know if they all know, but mine knew something was off.  He told me that he didn't know why he did what he did, that he was ashamed of his behavior, that he had done things he wished had never come to light, and he apologized.  Then he turned right around every time and treated me badly again.  It was almost like part of him was watching the horrible things and was helpless to stop it, but that same part sabotaged the evil part and made sure he was punished in some way for his actions.  Part of him cried to me, and part of him tried to destroy me.  I don't understand it either.  I just know I am glad that I don't have to deal with it any more than I do.

This is perfectly said for my experiences as well.  He knew something was wrong, he knows he self-sabotaged things, he knows about BPD, yet at the same time he can't stop it.  He is helpless to stop it.  Even learning about BPD he hasn't fully accepted it... . I believe that is just too painful for him to do. 

[blurry]

Yep Goldy, you hit on it again. It wasn't the actual behavior itself, the behavior itself would of gone unnoticed, or not worth raising an issue over, I a healthy relationship. But based on our past, it was an issue to me.

What always made things escalate was me questioning the behavior and getting told "oh its nothing", "oh well, get over it", "its none of your business, leave me alone", "if you ask me one more time, I'm calling the police", "grow some #$%%& and be a man"... . that's what got her own a$$ kicked out this last time finally, for once. It was always me getting kicked out before.

I tried explaining to her politely as I could, many times, for instance, her not initiating, or her turning down sex for a couple weeks, yeah in a healthy relationship, pms, headache, physical ailments, all good reasons to decline or avoid sex for some period of time. Now in her case, id explain, being that she had an ex, and a stranger off the internet inside her multiple times in the previous months, well then the lack of sex becomes kind of alarming in my mind. She never seemed to appreciate that thought process I had during those conversations, I wonder why?

[GreenMango]

She never seemed to appreciate that thought process I had during those conversations, I wonder why?

Really? 

[goldylamont]

There is a good lesson in all this on how we respond or will respond.

this is what i'm saying--calling them out on their manipulations, not saying it to them per se, but understanding "what" they are up to gives us the upper hand, increases our awareness so that we don't fall into the traps they want to set. of course not every argument is manipulative to this degree, but some are.

How much good is come out engaging this way with a person with a mental illness?   You know the why and the what.  Will one upping them bring on an awakening?

Abso-friggin-lutely it brought some of the greatest awakenings and aha moments I've had to date. Seeing the manipulation in all it's glory was equal parts sickening and depressing (knowing that she was capable of this) and also healing and beautiful (because I found out that my instincts were true, I wasn't crazy and I wasn't the bad guy). It was incredibly healing, as traumatizing as it was GreenMango.

Is there a way to assess your values and match it to actions in this?

Ps almost everyone here has at one time or another stooped to their level.  Engaging in conflict - but get this my guess and experience was doing this alleviated the other persons feelings of mounting anxiety and irritability effectively letting them transfer their emotions to you.  Dysfunctional soothing at its finest.

These aren't the actions of someone well equipped - these are autoresponses from a person who doesn't have healthy coping skills.

I have never disagreed that stooping to their level is ever a good idea. I don't feel like I'm being heard so I will try and state it again clearer--the moments where I realized that I was being manipulated on purpose by my ex caused me to behave in a more rational, less emotional, more positive frame of mind, instantly! You are assuming that I figured out what she was up to and blew up? The opposite was true, in the two moments i can remember--I calmed down and the whole argument ended. And, she never tried to pull that stupid isht again because she knew it wouldn't work.

She faked like she was scared of me several times, crying the PTSD her crying "just go away!". and each time i dutifully went away, i was horrified that i could actually scare her like this. so i did the "right" thing. this solved *nothing*, she did it several times more. but, the one time when it just clicked in my head what she was up to, that she was faking PTSD, as i said, i was able to remain calm, i was able to tell her i didn't think she was actually that afraid, and that if she was then she was free to leave. calm, cool, collect and left her an open pathway to the exit--she stayed right where she was and through her anger i could see her real intentions. it was beautiful to know this truth, that i wasn't presenting myself as a violent man. Heck yeah this was a beautiful (yet terribly heartbreaking) awakening.

She made a habit of recording arguments and when I didn't blow up as you say, this would frustrate her so she'd follow me around and throw more insults to try and get me to lose it so she'd have the audio. Once I called her out on it ("why do you have that phone in your hand? you're recording this?", I immediately contained myself. I told her it was dumb, and it hurt like hell later but I dealt with it on my own--but now I knew the game, and this further made me watch what I said. I knew it would only hurt me whether it was being recorded or not.

I've never claimed that we nons should not be accountable for the bad things we did in the r/s. I think it's critical to understand all of the truth, which albeit different for each of us. Me understanding her narcissistic games gave me the insight and protective wisdom to stay calm, become stronger in front of her, and not react. What's wrong with that?

[goldylamont]

She never seemed to appreciate that thought process I had during those conversations, I wonder why?

Really? 

because she's mentally ill. and it doesn't matter if you said the foulest thing to her or the nicest thing to her, the outcome would have been the same. she's still mentally ill either way. you know this because you tried both approaches, and neither absolved the issue, right? but which approach is better for your well being?

we can see how foolish it is to allow them to get us to the point where we actually act like the monster. that's what she wanted, but best to not fuel the fire so she can justify her behaviors. reacting like this only hurts us in the end, which in the moment i feel is exactly the effect they want. i did many breathing and grounding techniques which helped my reactions a lot. by accepting the shocking truths we can raise our awareness of ourselves, our reactions and emotions and behave better in the future.

[blurry]

Always wish I could go back to the beginning and either never confronted her about her behavior and/ or never reacted to it. To not rock the boat, so to speak. But I'm kidding myself if I think that was ever possible. I feel like if I acted like I didn't care, then I might as well really not care, and be done with her. Idk, so many conflicting thoughts about the whole thing, gotta stop the ruminating.

[GreenMango]

I did that blurry.  Thought pick my battles - brushing the others off - was the path of least resistance.

Those conflicting emotions are difficult.  Hang in there.  It took time to get this deep its going to take time to dig out.

[Learning_curve74]

i hate seeing people beat themselves up thinking "if only i hadn't said this or done that" that things would have been better. no, you just would have been a nicer doormat 

Too honest... .  

Another thing to add to the ongoing conversation, I think many pwBPD are also easily bored and need the drama and conflict to feel something, to feel alive. My BPDex actually told me many times, "I'm bored", to get me to do something with her. She acted like a little kid in an adult body. 

[KellyO]

@goldylamont

I know what you mean, and I'm with you in this. For me, it was CRUCIAL to see what was going on to get out of the final delusions and hopeful self-deception I still had. My ex went so far that he cut all sex, all physical contact, everything in his final means to get upper hand. I don't give a damn about upper hand, I don't need it, I don't want it, but neither do I want to have a partner who is willing to go to any lenghts to control me, even if it means he has to hurt himself in process. I understood that he REALLY is rather without if getting something would mean I would get something too.

I had to see how far he is ready to go to control me, to have the feeling of being the one who makes rules and who is in charge, and who gets his needs met. It is sickening, and it is an eye-opener. You have to see it to get free, to understand that all those cosy nice feelings you have are just your own illusions and wishful thinking, your partner has agenda of his/her own and it is not a nice agenda.