I was served the petition for divorce.

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Okay, so I was served the petition for divorce.

First, I'm shaking my head. Seriously, shaking my head. As I understand a petition for divorce, if I don't respond within the 30 days of being served, then H gets what he's requesting. Is that other people's understanding?

The reason I'm asking is he's essentially not requesting anything. We live in a community property state. He's asking community property & debts be a divided equitably. Kind of goes without saying. He's asking that individual property be determined. H has not mentioned he lives off a trust; he only mentions this on-paper only job he has so we can get insurance.

Process server--great guy (not sure why I was so afraid to take delivery) told me to then argue as to what I want. How am I supposed to argue about property being equitably divided? Jeez.

What I feel like right now, is that as is H's usual M.O. he's expecting everyone else to take care of what he wants. I am sure that he has not contacted his dad; my FIL would never have hired an attorney that did such a weird filing. Attorney just took a standard form from the courts regarding non-alienation of children (we have none) and allowing access to the marital home and never changed the language.

The petition is then requiring (at least as I see it) that I bring up the prenup, the trust, all that stuff. Jeez. I think the petition demonstrates that my H is either attempting to deliberately misrepresent his worth--why I don't know--or deliberately attempting to get me more actively involved--taking the lead essentially--in an action I don't want. Grr.  

I feel pissed. I didn't want the divorce. I really need to talk to my FIL. I think what we should do is have a legal separation. But I'll ask the attorney.

Will post tomorrow.

TMD

[toomanydogs]

Okay, so I was served the petition for divorce.

First, I'm shaking my head. Seriously, shaking my head. As I understand a petition for divorce, if I don't respond within the 30 days of being served, then H gets what he's requesting. Is that other people's understanding?

The reason I'm asking is he's essentially not requesting anything. We live in a community property state. He's asking community property & debts be a divided equitably. Kind of goes without saying. He's asking that individual property be determined. H has not mentioned he lives off a trust; he only mentions this on-paper only job he has so we can get insurance.

Process server--great guy (not sure why I was so afraid to take delivery) told me to then argue as to what I want. How am I supposed to argue about property being equitably divided? Jeez.

What I feel like right now, is that as is H's usual M.O. he's expecting everyone else to take care of what he wants. I am sure that he has not contacted his dad; my FIL would never have hired an attorney that did such a weird filing. Attorney just took a standard form from the courts regarding non-alienation of children (we have none) and allowing access to the marital home and never changed the language.

The petition is then requiring (at least as I see it) that I bring up the prenup, the trust, all that stuff. Jeez. I think the petition demonstrates that my H is either attempting to deliberately misrepresent his worth--why I don't know--or deliberately attempting to get me more actively involved--taking the lead essentially--in an action I don't want. Grr.  

I feel pissed. I didn't want the divorce. I really need to talk to my FIL. I think what we should do is have a legal separation. But I'll ask the attorney.

Will post tomorrow.

TMD

[flourdust]

Okay, so I was served the petition for divorce.

 Here comes the hard stuff. Even knowing it's coming (or suspecting ... .or even wanting... .), it can still knock you for a loop. Besides doing all the stuff you need to do ... .I'm going to urge you to connect with friends and other supporters ... .shore up your emotional resources, because you're going to want to lean on them.

Now, a little nuts-and-bolts advice... .

As I understand a petition for divorce, if I don't respond within the 30 days of being served, then H gets what he's requesting. Is that other people's understanding?

Divorce law in the US varies from state to state, and sometimes county to county. Don't rely on hearsay or online resources -- you'll pick up a lot of misinformation! Get those interviews lined up with attorney candidates ASAP, and be sure to ask that question up front. You can also look at your state or county's family law site, which probably has some plain English resources available.

How am I supposed to argue about property being equitably divided? Jeez.

Again... .question for the attorneys. It may not be as black-and-white as that. For example ... .and I am not an expert, just giving a hypothetical ... .you might be able to argue that because he has the trust, he has less need for the community property and you should receive an unequal distribution.

The petition is then requiring (at least as I see it) that I bring up the prenup, the trust, all that stuff.

Ignore anything you disagree with. The petition is his opening bid. You can respond with a counterpetition that throws all of that out and starts from your own position.

Take all your questions to the attorneys -- write them down as they occur to you. And we always advise that you bring up the mental health issues (and examples of how they translate into his behaviors) to help the attorney understand the case.

[toomanydogs]

 Here comes the hard stuff. Even knowing it's coming (or suspecting ... .or even wanting... .), it can still knock you for a loop. Besides doing all the stuff you need to do ... .I'm going to urge you to connect with friends and other supporters ... .shore up your emotional resources, because you're going to want to lean on them.

Now, a little nuts-and-bolts advice... .

Divorce law in the US varies from state to state, and sometimes county to county. Don't rely on hearsay or online resources -- you'll pick up a lot of misinformation! Get those interviews lined up with attorney candidates ASAP, and be sure to ask that question up front. You can also look at your state or county's family law site, which probably has some plain English resources available.
 Again... .question for the attorneys. It may not be as black-and-white as that. For example ... .and I am not an expert, just giving a hypothetical ... .you might be able to argue that because he has the trust, he has less need for the community property and you should receive an unequal distribution.

Ignore anything you disagree with. The petition is his opening bid. You can respond with a counterpetition that throws all of that out and starts from your own position.

Take all your questions to the attorneys -- write them down as they occur to you. And we always advise that you bring up the mental health issues (and examples of how they translate into his behaviors) to help the attorney understand the case.

Thanks, FlourDust. I have an appointment with an attorney tomorrow in the afternoon. I will have all my questions, and a counter proposal. Thanks.

Just an aside, there was nothing in this petition that I disagree with. Wow. Still just shaking my head. It's a lame petition.

TMD

[ForeverDad]

I filed for divorce, listing many points.  She responded aggressively with her own claims.  So far as I could discern, neither court nor the lawyers paid attention to those filings.  Since there was lack of agreement they proceeded with the typical with-children checklist.  Issuing a temporary order was top of the list.  Then mediation was next since we didn't agree.  Many court appearances a month or two apart are common.

The prenup may limit his financial exposure but we can't give legal advice on it.  Seek multiple consultations.  Maybe his FIL will be reasonable and a stabilizing influence on your husband, or maybe not, too often "blood is thicker than water".  The lawyer you hire is one you pay to be on your side.  You can even ask the court to have H reimburse your legal expenses but often a person's lawyer bills are paid from the person's marital equity.  Whatever happens, make sure you avoid a form filing, hand holding lawyer who only does settlements.  You need a lawyer who is prepared and qualified to go to trial if necessary.  Choose a good one from the start, you don't want to later hire a better one and pay extra to do so.

[toomanydogs]

I filed for divorce, listing many points.  She responded aggressively with her own claims.  So far as I could discern, neither court nor the lawyers paid attention to those filings.  Since there was lack of agreement they proceeded with the typical with-children checklist.  Issuing a temporary order was top of the list.  Then mediation was next since we didn't agree.  Many court appearances a month or two apart are common.

The prenup may limit his financial exposure but we can't give legal advice on it.  Seek multiple consultations.  Maybe his FIL will be reasonable and a stabilizing influence on your husband, or maybe not, too often "blood is thicker than water".  The lawyer you hire is one you pay to be on your side.  You can even ask the court to have H reimburse your legal expenses but often a person's lawyer bills are paid from the person's marital equity.  Whatever happens, make sure you avoid a form filing, hand holding lawyer who only does settlements.  You need a lawyer who is prepared and qualified to go to trial if necessary.  Choose a good one from the start, you don't want to later hire a better one and pay extra to do so.

The process server told me that whatever lawyer I hire, s/he will subpoena my FIL to release money from the trust for legal fees.
As of right now, for a myriad of reasons, I intend to counter offer with a legal separation.
Will post after I meet with the first lawyer.
TMD

[ForeverDad]

Why a Legal Separation?  I recall my lawyer explaining he had only done LS twice in 17 years of lawyering.  Neither were for conflict.  He said one was because his wife needed medical insurance (a divorce final decree cuts off health insurance), otherwise they would have divorced.

Most here found that if their spouse wasn't in therapy with demonstrable progress toward recovery, divorce was inevitable.  People with BPD live in a black or white, yes no, all nothing worldview.  The relationship is similar, either it is or it isn't.  However, the distance is helpful but it would still leave you connected in ways that could negatively impact you.  Is LS your idea of a halfway solution to determine if that much is enough for you?

[toomanydogs]

Why a Legal Separation?  I recall my lawyer explaining he had only done LS twice in 17 years of lawyering.  Neither were for conflict.  He said one was because his wife needed medical insurance (a divorce final decree cuts off health insurance), otherwise they would have divorced.

Most here found that if their spouse wasn't in therapy with demonstrable progress toward recovery, divorce was inevitable.  People with BPD live in a black or white, yes no, all nothing worldview.  The relationship is similar, either it is or it isn't.  However, the distance is helpful but it would still leave you connected in ways that could negatively impact you.  Is LS your idea of a halfway solution to determine if that much is enough for you?

An LS would be for a couple reasons, one is health insurance, the other is I want to stay in the house.
TMD

[flourdust]

Can you say a little bit about your current living arrangements? I seem to recall that you and your husband live on a large property that has a house (you live in) and a guest house (he lives in). Is that right?

I think it's a really bad idea to end up in a living situation where you are still both on the same property. One of you needs to move away.

Was the house purchased before or after you were married? Where did the down payment come from -- commingled funds or assets from one side only?

[toomanydogs]

Can you say a little bit about your current living arrangements? I seem to recall that you and your husband live on a large property that has a house (you live in) and a guest house (he lives in). Is that right?

I think it's a really bad idea to end up in a living situation where you are still both on the same property. One of you needs to move away.

Was the house purchased before or after you were married? Where did the down payment come from -- commingled funds or assets from one side only?

The real estate transaction was really complicated. Bought after we were married. Owned by H's trust.

H moved out more than a month ago, not telling me he was moving out--telling me he was going away for a week, so he's not on the property, and I agree it would be a terrible terrible terrible idea for both of us to be on the property right now.
TMD

[formflier]

How did the attorney meeting go? 

Don't try to be fair... .this is about you and your future. 

Since I don't understand your relationship with your FIL... .I am hesitant to be to specific on how to contact or what to say.

Generally... .in writing is better, because it gives the other party time to process.  You can use delivery confirmation or signature receipt to make sure he has gotten the letter.

Or... .just call.  Would he answer?

Hang in there.

FF

[toomanydogs]

How did the attorney meeting go? 

I liked the attorney I saw on Thursday and will revisit with him on Monday to ensure we are on the same page. The lawyer I saw on Friday I didn't like it all. Funny, I'd thought I would; she'd sounded so good on paper, but the one on Thursday was recommended by the process server. In addition, a guy I contacted for security here--a guy I've known for 23 years--knows of the attorney I liked, said he's never heard anything but good stuff about him.

Don't try to be fair... .this is about you and your future. 

Thanks for this. People have been so great to me. Today, when I was explaining to a friend that I'd gone on match.com to see if anyone would be interested in me at my age, she said, "are you kidding? You're pretty. You're funny. You have a great personality." Almost made me cry. There's this great C/W song: Poor Pitiful Me. One of the verses explains how I've been feeling:
Well he really worked me over good
Just like Jesse James
Yes he really worked me over good
He was a credit to his gender
Put me through some changes Lord
Sort of like a Waring blender.

Written by Warren Zevon, by the way. Great songwriter. But that song really captures how I'm feeling these days.

Since I don't understand your relationship with your FIL... .I am hesitant to be to specific on how to contact or what to say.

Generally... .in writing is better, because it gives the other party time to process.  You can use delivery confirmation or signature receipt to make sure he has gotten the letter.

Or... .just call.  Would he answer?

Naw. If he was going to answer, he'd have done so by now. In a way, when I'm feeling positive, both my H and FIL have done me a favor. I never would have filed for divorce from my H. Because of the age difference, it would be akin to my abandoning a son. I could never do that.
And my FIL not getting back to me, although it hurts, furthers my resolve to make sure I take care of myself financially and not try to be over accommodating.

Hang in there.

FF

Thanks, FF. Yesterday was a rough day. Today has been pretty good. I met with a psychiatrist for my own issues with anxiety. This is the doc who referred me to the medical cannabis program, and his approach is generally holistic. He reminded me to eat well. I haven't been eating at all. 

 I've been reading your most recent posts. I haven't had a chance yet to comment. I really loved your letter to your wife. I wish I could write one like that to my H. Maybe I'll write and not send.   

TMD

[formflier]

Full disclosure... .I've not been eating well either.  I eat a lot... .I'm not hungry... .but very different than eating well.

I had a good 6-8 month run of regularly seeing the dietician at the VA... .good exercising... all that.  Then I was out of state working on the flip house (ex rental) and my Dad had his stroke... . I really enjoy food... .it's comforting... .I'm deliberate about providing that comfort and "being kind" to myself, but I do need to bring some discipline back in and eat healthier.

Once I get in a routine... .things go great... .my life hasn't been routine since... June.  That really sucks...


OK... .back to your stuff.

Tell me about how you have tried to contact the FIL?  How often... do you know message got through... etc etc.

Since it appears you are about to retain an attorney... .I would say leave any further FIL action until after advice from attorney.

Good attorney's are a blessing... .and can be expensive... .I just sent about $5 grand to my lawyers for expenses... .

With a properly crafted plan, and an attorney that understands your goals... .this move could set you up for a good transition for... .your future.

TMD,

I'm pretty sure that many people would describe you as "nice", "caring"... ."nurturing"... .etc etc... . :)o I have this right?

Those characteristics and a successful court case... .many times... .don't go together.

I'm glad you have heard good things about this attorney.  Before retaining him, ask him about times he has had to "get rough"... ."put pressure on"... ."knife the other side in the back"... .etc etc.

Unlikely to be the right opening strategy... .but I guarantee you that you want a guy that can do that and has the wisdom to guide you.

It would seem like there is a good amount of wealth involved here.  You would have had a part of it, if not for the divorce filing.  Use the legal process to make yourself whole... .please don't worry about nice or fair.

This is your future... .

FF

[toomanydogs]

Full disclosure... .I've not been eating well either.  I eat a lot... .I'm not hungry... .but very different than eating well.

I had a good 6-8 month run of regularly seeing the dietician at the VA... .good exercising... all that.  Then I was out of state working on the flip house (ex rental) and my Dad had his stroke... . I really enjoy food... .it's comforting... .I'm deliberate about providing that comfort and "being kind" to myself, but I do need to bring some discipline back in and eat healthier.

Once I get in a routine... .things go great... .my life hasn't been routine since... June.  That really sucks...

Hi FF,
  I thought I'd responded to this. I guess I got sidetracked. Not surprising. When I'm slightly stressed, I tend to overeat; when I'm way past slightly stressed, I stop eating. And I saw my psychiatrist on Friday, who asked if I were eating healthy. "Yeah," I said. "When I eat, but right now I'm not eating."

I sympathize (and empathize) with life not being routine. It does suck. I need the routine, so I can be productive. When things go south, I'm not productive at all, and then I feel anxious because I'm feeling lazy, and then I get more stressed and can't eat... .Well, you get the picture.

Tell me about how you have tried to contact the FIL?  How often... do you know message got through... etc etc.

Ahh... .H's family is odd to say the least. FIL gave me a cell number where I could reach him, and he gave me his personal line at work and he gave me a general gmail account, which he doesn't check with any regularity. He lets the cell go to voicemail, and his personal line at work no longer goes through.

I had a friend over yesterday, who was helpful in validating why I think I can't reach FIL. I believe that my FIL has had it with the drama and is intentionally stepping back and letting H and I to work this out. The problem, as I've said, is that H has no authority to release funds from the trust. It's just kind of a mess.

Since it appears you are about to retain an attorney... .I would say leave any further FIL action until after advice from attorney.

Agreed.

Good attorney's are a blessing... .and can be expensive... .I just sent about $5 grand to my lawyers for expenses... .

Again agreed. Mine will require $5K retainer.

With a properly crafted plan, and an attorney that understands your goals... .this move could set you up for a good transition for... .your future.

I meet with the lawyer again tomorrow to ensure we are on the same page. The friend who came over yesterday also validated my concern that H may be on meth.
I know that I can't save my H. I also know that because of the age difference and the overall dynamic of our r'ship, I've frequently felt as if H is my son, and, in many ways, the divorce petition read more like a runaway note a child would give a parent.
I then ask what I'd do if my own son were on drugs and was behaving in such a self-destructive way? Would I try to help one more time? Would I suggest an alternative to leaving?
I am so conflicted. I am worried. I am hurt. I am angry. And I need legal advice from a lawyer, who can see me for who I am. Another lawyer I interviewed, I'm pretty sure saw me as a gold digger, and when I asked about H being on drugs, she said, "Oh, aren't you sweet. It's not your problem."
I need to ensure whoever represents me sees who I really am and will give me good legal advice.

TMD,

I'm pretty sure that many people would describe you as "nice", "caring"... ."nurturing"... .etc etc... . :)o I have this right?

LOL. It's how I ended up rescuing horses, dogs, cats, even a two-legged rat. Yeh, I'd say I'm caring and nurturing.

I'm glad you have heard good things about this attorney.  Before retaining him, ask him about times he has had to "get rough"... ."put pressure on"... ."knife the other side in the back"... .etc etc.

Unlikely to be the right opening strategy... .but I guarantee you that you want a guy that can do that and has the wisdom to guide you.

It would seem like there is a good amount of wealth involved here.  You would have had a part of it, if not for the divorce filing.  Use the legal process to make yourself whole... .please don't worry about nice or fair.

This is your future... .

FF

Thanks, FF. As always, I read your posts or those from 'ducks, and I end up crying. I am so touched that people I really don't know reach out to me when I'm feeling so broken. Thank you.  
TMD

[formflier]

I need to ensure whoever represents me sees who I really am and will give me good legal advice.
 

TMD,

Hey... .it's me.  I've got your best interests at heart.  Not your H's.

You need an attorney that you can get along with.  Please don't worry about if he "see's" you the  right way.

I'm much more interested in him helping you "produce the gold"... .than him figuring out... .or in anyway expressing that you are or are not a gold digger.

Again... .it's me. 

Now is the time for you to "act like a gold digger". 

I'm serious.  I say it that way because... .since you are nice and since you really care what others think and since you probably will do lots of things in an attempt to get others to "think" a certain way about you... .  That if you proceed from this point forward as a gold digger... .(your version of one)... .you will probably be ok.

You need a lawyer that supports that vision and can explain what that looks like. 

Le'ts put on a different "lens" or "point of view".

My goal would be to have people in his family... .post divorce... .look at how things went down and shake their heads and say that your H really messed up and it cost the family a lot.

I DO NOT want them to say... .wow... H messed up, I'm glad TMD was so nice about it.


Do you get the difference?

I understand you are not a gold digger.  I do.  You can act like a gold digger and still not be one.  Make sense?

FF

[toomanydogs]

TMD,

Now is the time for you to "act like a gold digger".  

I'm serious.  I say it that way because... .since you are nice and since you really care what others think and since you probably will do lots of things in an attempt to get others to "think" a certain way about you... .  That if you proceed from this point forward as a gold digger... .(your version of one)... .you will probably be ok.

I friggin' love this! When I first met my H, he was constantly trying to give me money, and not like $500 here $1000 there; he was trying to give me $50,000. Plus, he gave me access to all his bank accounts. If I'd been a gold digger, I'd have taken his money then, never somehow tried to "make" him marry me, so I could get money later. Thank you. Thank you thank you thank you. Even if I act like a gold digger, I'm likely to be really low key.

My goal would be to have people in his family... .post divorce... .look at how things went down and shake their heads and say that your H really messed up and it cost the family a lot. I DO NOT want them to say... .woe... H messed up, I'm glad TMD was so nice about it.

Yep, one more time the family had to bail him out. Likely, the family will find a long term facility for him.

Do you get the difference?

I understand you are not a gold digger.  I do.  You can act like a gold digger and still not be one.  Make sense?

FF

Yes, all of this makes sense.

A development: and I'm about to start a new thread about it. I have reason to believe/suspect that H & P were/are having an affair. I will bring this to my lawyer's attention today.

Seriously, I wish you knew me in person. I am so not a drama person. I am so not the woman my H, in retrospect, seemed to want. I'm just a combination of a Catholic kid raised in the 50s and 60s, whose mother died, and who was then raised by a stepdad (considered him my real father), who happened to be an academic, the very antithesis of the devout Catholic my mom was. I'm a combination of faith and intellect, blue collar roots and a graduate degree. I'm more heart than head, and I'm kind. I'm decent. And I'm really shaking my head. I was deceived, and I was probably compliant in the deception.

Sure have learned a lot.

Thanks, FF. Have a good Monday,

TMD

[formflier]

At my heart... .I'm a southern redneck from the mountains of Appalachia.  My Mom happened to be a professor and my Dad was a banker (plus farmer on side).  So... I "had to be" a good student.

I'm first generation (as in my family moved to the mountains), but all my friends were multi-generational.  

Anyway... I grew up helping work in tobacco fields tried to live out my teenage years in a muscle car imagining I was Bo Duke... .yeah... .successfully ran from our version of Roscoe several times and then went off to college and had to cleanup (somewhat) to be  Naval Officer.  Aviator types tend to be a bit "boisterous"  (polite way to put it)... . I've got a masters from War College and working on an MBA from national university.

Yet... .a situation where someone says "hold my beer... watch this... "(stereotypes become stereotypes for a reason)... .is guaranteed to put smile on my face.  

My first girlfriends Dad had a moonshine still... .made most of his money that way.



FF

[formflier]

 
At my heart... .I'm a southern redneck from the mountains of Appalachia.  My Mom happened to be a professor and my Dad was a banker (plus farmer on side).  So... I "had to be" a good student.

I'm first generation (as in my family moved to the mountains), but all my friends were multi-generational.  

Anyway... I grew up helping work in tobacco fields tried to live out my teenage years in a muscle car imagining I was Bo Duke... .yeah... .successfully ran from our version of Roscoe several times and then went off to college and had to cleanup (somewhat) to be  Naval Officer.  Aviator types tend to be a bit "boisterous"  (polite way to put it)... . I've got a masters from War College and working on an MBA from national university.

Yet... .a situation where someone says "hold my beer... watch this... "(stereotypes become stereotypes for a reason)... .is guaranteed to put smile on my face.  

My first girlfriends Dad had a moonshine still... .made most of his money that way.

I still have my aviator mustache... .even though there is some grey in it now.  Good to know at least in my wife's mind... .I've still got a harem... .I mean... .the mustache... .it's like a magnet for those needing some... .



FF