How to validate engulfment?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

 I need to give my ex-BPD my new contact info (shared cellphone is expiring). I feel anxious, as during our last text he told me  "Good luck to you.  I hope you find someone better than me"... .Sounds final to me, so when I text him with the contact info I feel nervous that he'll feel engulfed.  (Not giving him the info isn't an option)

  If he reacts negatively, I'm wondering how to validate his feeling engulfed, while still trying to give him the info and remaining calm myself?  I would be hurt if he gets triggered and reacts negatively.  I realize how they react to attachment/detachment/loss/contact, etc.

Thanks,

Shatra

[shatra]

 I need to give my ex-BPD my new contact info (shared cellphone is expiring). I feel anxious, as during our last text he told me  "Good luck to you.  I hope you find someone better than me"... .Sounds final to me, so when I text him with the contact info I feel nervous that he'll feel engulfed.  (Not giving him the info isn't an option)

  If he reacts negatively, I'm wondering how to validate his feeling engulfed, while still trying to give him the info and remaining calm myself?  I would be hurt if he gets triggered and reacts negatively.  I realize how they react to attachment/detachment/loss/contact, etc.

Thanks,

Shatra

[patientandclear]

Shatra--I would repost this on Staying. Folks here don't focus much on validation and maintaining a viable connection with an ex wBPD.

[Mutt]

Hi shatra,

I can see how receiving a text would make us feel anxious.

It's almost three years after the split and I get emails from my ex and she can be condescending, volatile and sometimes detached.

"Good luck to you.  I hope you find someone better than me"... .

The goal is to try to find something to validate and don't validate the invalid. Is there something in this text message that's valid? My ex may be looking to sooth and I'm not in a role to sooth her. He made his choice to end the r/s and he didn't want to provide a reason why he ended it or give you closure?

I would try to write something that doesn't show emotion and I would simply give him your contact information.

"Here's my contact info for the cellphone, thanks"

You're worried about his thoughts, reactions and feelings... .How about you and how you feel?

[enlighten me]

Hi Shatra

I agree with Mutt. Keep it neutral and to the point. You cant change the way he feels at this moment. If he has painted you black then by being nice and trying to validate him may have the opposite effect. He may see it as you trying to manipulate him and therefore firm his belief that he is right to paint you black.

[shatra]

THank you.

Mutt wrote---

My ex may be looking to sooth and I'm not in a role to sooth her. He made his choice to end the r/s and he didn't want to provide a reason why he ended it or give you closure?

----He says he doesn't have a reason that he ended it.  I wasn't planning to ask him about that, I was planning to give him the new contact info. I am nervous that he will see this gesture as engulfing, and if so, I wonder how to validate his feeling engulfed (when in reality I am just updating him on the contact info)... .in other words, if he feels engulfed and gets upset and says "Well don't even give me the info then!"  due to feeling engulfed

Enlighten me wrote---

If he has painted you black then by being nice and trying to validate him may have the opposite effect. He may see it as you trying to manipulate him and therefore firm his belief that he is right to paint you black.

---As of the last text he has painted me white... .but I still fear that by my contacting him with the new phone info he will see it as engulfment... .and if he feels that and pushes me away I will be upset but still might want to validate his feeling engulfed (which would be hard for me to do).

[enlighten me]

A simple text saying "this is my new number if you need to contact me" should be sufficient and not trigger him.

If he does feel engulfed by this then I don't think anything else you say would have made a difference. You'll have achieved what you set out to do and he will have your number.

[shatra]

Yes enlighten, simple is the way to go----good advice.  If he protests and pushes me away saying ":)on't even send me the contact info!" and feels engulfed, maybe I can say "You're feeling like you don't want me to send it to you?"  as calmly as I can, though I would feel upset!

[Notwendy]

Do you have to ask if he wants it?

One option is to text- in one text to his phone: "Hi, this is my new contact info 555-5555, and my e mail is XXX@xxx.com. Hope you are doing well.

This way he has it - how he reacts is not predictable.

I understand that you want to give him your contact info, but doing more than that seems like an attempt to engage him in a conversation. He may not be interested in that. But you can send the info regardless.

[EaglesJuju]

Why would giving him your contact information make him feel engulfed?

[Herodias]

I guess I am to the point where I wouldn't care how he feels... .Once you are out, you're out. Make it short and simple.

[OnceConfused]

The comments here to your post are very good. I think you just show a neutral tone , emotionless in your text or any communications.

Why do you feel that NOT GIVING YOUR PHONE is NOT an option ? I don't quite understand the requirement.

If you have to give the phone number then just be very simple, to-the-point approach: Don't respond to any of his attempt to make you feel guilty.

For example:

Here is my new phone number.

Don't even say thanks or hope you feel better ... .

What is done is done, so who cares about what and how he feels ... .

[shatra]

Good advice by all.

Once Confused, I still care about how he feels.  I would prefer it if he doesn't feel engulfed and then snap at me.

Eagles wrote

Why would giving him your contact information make him feel engulfed?

-----2 reasons come to mind:

1----his last text sounded so final "Good luck. Hope you find someone better than me"----so me providing info might make him feel engulfed

2-----he has BPD, and is very sensitive to either abandonment or engulfment.

   

   I am still not sure how to validate them feeling engulfed. If they felt abandoned I would validate:  You are feeling upset. Perhaps you are feeling abandoned or left out?  Would u like to talk more about it?   

   Not sure how to validate engulfment though

[OnceConfused]

Once Confused, I still care about how he feels.  I would prefer it if he doesn't feel engulfed and then snap at me.

You should care about him , but only a little . Because if you care too much, then you are setting yourself up to depend on him TO VALIDATE YOUR WORTH. You are not free because you are relying on his approval still of who you are. NOT GOOD, my friend. Too much co-dependency here.

[Mutt]

Hi shatra,

I hear you talking about his thoughts and feelings and I don't hear you talking about your thoughts and feelings. It sounds like enmeshment.

Enmeshment refers to a condition where two or more people weave their lives and identities around one another so tightly that it is difficult for any one of them to function independently.

Dangers of Enmeshment

[Notwendy]

Just to be clear- to validate someone is not something specific to people with BPD. Validation is a way of responding to people that is helpful in just about all relationships. However -- to validate someone is to respond to something they say to you. So first, there has to be a statement to respond to.

The reason it is discussed in relationships with pw BPD is that they can have a feeling and think it is a fact. If they express this to someone, it is tempting to dispute the fact that isn't real ( JADE) but that can feel hurtful to them because their feelings feel invalidated. The goal is to validate their feelings but not the fact that isn't true.

There is no specific way to validate engulfment. It is the same for any feeling. This is an example.

someone says " I know you are cheating on me"      response " That's crazy, I'm not cheating, how can you think that? " this is invalidating. However, if it isn't true, you don't want to say " You're right! I must be cheating"  So how do you validate the feeling and not the fact?

"Honey, I see you feel like I'm cheating and that must feel awful, would you like to tell me why you feel that way"


Another example is " It's cold in here!" the response " How can you be cold- I turned up the heat" is invalidating.  " Honey, I hear that you are cold. " then say nothing and see what else he says. Don't try to defend or fix it.   That is validating.

In general, validating statements repeat the feeling statement, but they don't defend or fix or add to it.



Again : a validating statement is in response to something said to you- you are responding to his statement. If you make an assumption about someone, then this is mind reading. These kinds of statements can feel intrusive.

Yes, pw BPD can feel sensitive to abandonment and engulfment- but assuming this is what someone is feeling and saying it to them can be inaccurate and insulting.

You really don't know how your ex will respond to receiving your contact information. He may say something, and there is the possibility he may say nothing at all. Even if he did feel engulfed, unless he says something to you, you do not have a statement to validate.

I agree with Mutt says- that you are concerned about his feelings. I also think you are hurting and wishing he would respond to your text in a way that is not hurtful to you. Although you do want to give him your contact number, if this is all you wanted to do, you would just give it to him. From your texts, to me it seems you want more than that- a positive exchange and how to make that happen.

You can't control his side of it. He may be happy, he may be angry and he may even feel engulfed, but that's a risk you take when you contact him.


So you are specifically focused on engulfment. Let's assume ( maybe true or not) that he feels engulfed. You send the number. He texts back something hurtful " I told you not to contact me"  - and you want to pursue this. One choice is that you validate this " Yes, I know that you didn't want me to contact you, but I wanted you to have my contact info because I would like to have it".

If he actually says " I feel you are not leaving me alone, engulfing me, or some statement, you can reply with the same type of statement " I understand that you feel this way" then say nothing, let him respond to that.

However, your other choice is to believe him  and say " I understand, I won't be contacting you again".

[shatra]

Mutt wrote--

hear you talking about his thoughts and feelings and I don't hear you talking about your thoughts and feelings. It sounds like enmeshment.

---I had written that I feel nervous---it's an uncomfortable situation to be in.  My thoughts are that I need to give him the info re: cell phone contract, but knowing he has BPD, he might react by feeling engulfed.  If he didn't have BPD, I wouldn't be as focused on his reactions. In the past when I was unprepared for his reactions, with BPD they often come out of the blue and are extreme. Otherwise I would just "wing it"

[Notwendy]

Maybe role playing the conversation will help.

I understand that you assume  that this is what will go on, from past exchanges with him. You wish to be prepared for his response.

So first of all--- How will you send him the info and what will you say.

Second- what is the response you think you will get from him when he ( as you believe he is) feels engulfed?

Write out the scripts of how the conversation might go. What are the possible ways that you feel might happen? What are your ideas of how to start this conversation?

Since we don't know your ex, tell us how a conversation would go when he feels engulfed, and how you know that this means he is feeling engulfed ( ie how he says it, how he lets you know what is going on with him, or how you know it)

[shatra]

Notwendy wrote---

How will you send him the info and what will you say.

Second- what is the response you think you will get from him when he ( as you believe he is) feels engulfed?

Write out the scripts of how the conversation might go. What are the possible ways that you feel might happen? What are your ideas of how to start this conversation?

Me texting: Hi--the cell phone contract is up next month. Here is the new number

Him ----(if he feels engulfed)  We said good bye last month! What are you texting me for?

Me---I just wanted you to have the number for future reference

Him---What future reference? You know I'm aggravated with my son---I don't need this on top of it!

Me---Yes, that's a lot to deal with.  Well, this way you have the new number

Him---What is the reason you're giving it to me?

Me---In case you need it for future  reference

Him---I really feel closed in by this! We separated las month!

Me---You're feeling closed in since we are separated and I'm giving you the updated contract info, I understand... .

[enlighten me]

Hi Shatra

That's way too much in my opinion. You can see how it is escalating.

A simple "as the cell phone contracts are up I thought it appropriate to give you my new number just in case you needed to contact me"

Then ignore any negative replies or just say " Im sorry it made you feel that way" and leave it at that.

You will have achieved what you wanted and avoided the drama.

[Notwendy]

Shatra- this is a good start, and it isn't even certain that the conversation will be as long as this, the role playing here is a way to work out your concerns about how this would go.

While you are concerned about his feelings, consider this idea- it is how his reaction makes you feel. You are feeling fearful of him feeling engulfed because that would feel hurtful to you. In a different situation, I think you would not have any concerns about giving someone your contact info. You'd probably say " Here's my number" and that would be that.

What makes this different to you? The possibility of his emotions, but that's not something you can control. Your part is how you feel when he is upset with you. The break up is recent, and it hurts. This is understandable- I think many of us have been there.

It's OK to make a validating statement to his feelings, but even then, it isn't possible to manage someone's feelings. I think a difficult part of this exchange for you is your feelings, and that is something you can manage- because they are yours.

This doesn't mean not to feel them. It is scary to contact him, and if he reacts in an angry matter, that can feel hurtful. However, you can still choose to not be reactive. His emotions may escalate, yours may too, but you can remain calm and not escalate the situation. You can also choose to end it, kindly, if it gets to be too much. While you are concerned about his reaction, you also have control over your side of the conversation.

Me texting: Hi--the cell phone contract is up next month. My new number is ##### if you ever need to reach me.

Him ----(if he feels engulfed)  We said good bye last month! What are you texting me for?

(Validate that he said goodbye and exit the conversation- there isn't an engulfment statement to validate)

Me: Yes, we did. Take care, bye.  ( no reaction or drama, just a polite goodbye)




If you take it further- realize that you are also participating in taking this further- which is violating his boundary- he told you he has said goodbye.



Him---What future reference? You know I'm aggravated with my son---I don't need this on top of it!

Me: I understand, take care, goodbye  ( an exit that respects his boundary)

Now, if you continue this-

Me---Yes, that's a lot to deal with.  Well, this way you have the new number

Him---What is the reason you're giving it to me?

Me---In case you need it for future  reference

Him---I really feel closed in by this! We separated last month!

Me--- I understand. Take care goodbye.


Boundaries go both ways. If he makes a statement that he does not want to be contacted, then you have the choice to respect that boundary or not. If his boundaries are violated, then it would make sense that he feels irritable.

[shatra]

notwendy wrote--

Him ----(if he feels engulfed)  We said good bye last month! What are you texting me for?

(Validate that he said goodbye and exit the conversation- there isn't an engulfment statement to validate)

Me: Yes, we did. Take care, bye.  ( no reaction or drama, just a polite goodbye)

------Knowing him, that would probably trigger his feeling abandoned, just to abruptly stop the discussion there.  He never told me not to contact him, but I am just guessing that as a BPD he might see the contact as engulfing, and then see an abrupt getting off the phone as an abandonment.  I can try to keep the talk as simple and validating as possible.

[livednlearned]

Hi Shatra,

It's a good question, how to validate engulfment.

Do you think it's possible?

Someone tells you good-bye, have a nice life. Don't come to my home, I'm done.

Isn't it invalidating to purposefully ignore his boundary?

[shatra]

Live wrote

It's a good question, how to validate engulfment.

Do you think it's possible?

----From what I've read, any feeling, no matter how irrational or unfounded, can be validated

Someone tells you good-bye, have a nice life. Don't come to my home, I'm done.

Isn't it invalidating to purposefully ignore his boundary?

----From what I've read, it is not uncommon for people with BPD to say goodbye, say those things, and then switch later on. He never said not to come over, actually he has invited me over... .he is upset because I hadn't called before coming over

-----The cell phone contract is a shared one, so there is no boundary to ignore.  What I am asking about here is how to handle it when we need to contact them and they may feel engulfed, as it is common among BPD's

[OnceConfused]

I think the issue that the shared phone bill causes you to still entangle with your xBPD.

The best I think once the r.s is over, is to MAKE IT OVER . Let by gone be by gone.

About the phone,  you can go to the phone store and get your phone plan and still using the same phone number. I don't see that is the problem at all.

In a way, per your writing here I got the feeling that you really don't want this to be over. His conversation with you seems to say that he wanted to say good bye but you really don't let that happen. Am I wrong or right here?

[shatra]

Once wrote---

The best I think once the r.s is over, is to MAKE IT OVER . Let by gone be by gone.

---He has BPD and we have had separations before. It may not be over.

About the phone,  you can go to the phone store and get your phone plan and still using the same phone number. I don't see that is the problem at all.

--Tried that---it would be more costly than a shared plan

In a way, per your writing here I got the feeling that you really don't want this to be over. His conversation with you seems to say that he wanted to say good bye but you really don't let that happen. Am I wrong or right here?

----He said goodbye, and then later on sent me flowers.  With BPD they can end it one month and be back the next month. 

   I am not sure whether I want it to be over or not.

    Based on the replies here, with people writing "Once the relationship is over, make it over"  and   "someone tells you Have a nice life. Don't come to my home, I'm done"  (none of which was said by him---in fact he has invited me over to his home)  I get the sense I may be posting on the wrong board. I am not with my BPD, but he has returned before  and I need help in reading his BPD signals and sorting through my feelings about being broken up.

[livednlearned]

Hi shatra,

I think you are on the right board  

The confusion may be because your question hints at two issues.

One is whether it is healthy to validate engulfment the way you are suggesting (giving him your number).

The other is how to validate engulfment.  

The first question is about examining your role in the dynamic. Is it healthy, given the current status of your relationship with him, to reach out? You want to give him your phone number so he can reach you again when and if he is ready. That is about you. If you want to make sure he knows how to reach you, I am guessing that when he tries your number, he will know you have changed your number. He can email you, no? Or come by your home? Or send a letter? To find out how to reach you.

The second question is about examining what validation is, and what engulfment is. Validation is accepting and acknowledging his feelings and perceptions as valid. This question is about him -- you want to know if there are tools and lessons that will help minimize the engulfment. To me, it seems that validating him during times he feels engulfed is to simply give him space. Validation does not have to be verbal. It can be as simple as giving someone space when he or she asks for it.

If that is difficult for you to do, to take the chance that he will not reach out and track you down, why do you think you feel that way?

[Notwendy]

Shatra,

I don't think you are on the wrong board. The different forums- staying, undecided, etc are designed to help people sort out their feelings in relationships with pw BPD. Your feelings and sadness are valid and the board is here to help you sort them out.

In the responses, people are considering different possibilities with your relationship- one is that it is ongoing, the other, is that your ex wishes to end it.

The confusing part is that, as you have stated, your ex has in the past, said he wants to end it and then decides he does not. If, as you say, he may say "it's over" but he really doesn't mean it, this makes it hard to know if he means it or not.

Your question is how to be validating. If indeed your ex is saying what he feels, then you contacting him is invalidating his boundaries. If he doesn't mean what he says, then this is confusing. Still there are choices about how to respond to what he says.

The first is to assume that he means what he says and wants his wishes respected. The relationship is over and he means it. Your choice is to decide not to contact him or to contact him, and if he gets upset, either respect that or keep the conversation going.

From your posts, it seems you do not believe that he wants it to be over.

You maintain that because of his actions and in the past, he doesn't mean what he says. It isn't over and you wish to keep it going.

I agree, it is hard to deal with feelings of a break up. It hurts. I think the hardest place to be is in the unknown. Is it over or is it not?

I wonder, if he wanted it to be over, what possible ways could he say it. Do you feel that because he has BPD it is not possible for him to want it to be over? If it was, how would you know?

Then, there is your feelings. You don't want it to be over, and you don't want to not contact him. That is your choice. You asked about how to validate his feelings of engulfment. Same as validating all feelings. Your role playing post is a good example of how to validate while continuing the conversation. It isn't possible to predict his response exactly so the possible responses are endless. The only way to know is to try it.

[shatra]

Lived wrote---

I am guessing that when he tries your number, he will know you have changed your number. He can email you, no? '

-----To not give the new number to someone and have them find out when they try to call me wouldn't be nice---I wouldn't do that. He can't email me.

The second question is about examining what validation is, and what engulfment is. To me, it seems that validating him during times he feels engulfed is to simply give him space. Validation does not have to be verbal. It can be as simple as giving someone space when he or she asks for it.

-----So if he feels engulfed by having my number, give him space? That's a good idea.

If that is difficult for you to do, to take the chance that he will not reach out and track you down, why do you think you feel that way?

-----I know I would feel upset and he would as well, if a number were changed and the person didn't even give me the new number.\

Notwendy wrote---

If indeed your ex is saying what he feels, then you contacting him is invalidating his boundaries.

-----We broke up, but he has invited me over and has invited me to call him. So my contacting him would in fact not be invalidating his boundaries. The only thing he is upset about is that I came by without calling first.


From your posts, it seems you do not believe that he wants it to be over.

You maintain that because of his actions and in the past, he doesn't mean what he says.

-----I'm not sure if he wants it to be over or not.  I am basing my doubt on the fact that he has done this before and returned, and on the fact that he is diagnosed with BPD.

I wonder, if he wanted it to be over, what possible ways could he say it. Do you feel that because he has BPD it is not possible for him to want it to be over? If it was, how would you know?

-----Because he has BPD, he has said it's over before and then taken it back and reunited with me. It's also a pattern I read about repeatedly with people with this disorder.  Not sure how I would know from him if it was really over----what possible ways were you wondering about?.

[OnceConfused]

I am totally confused with your situation. It sounds like what he says is not what he means, or at least that is what you believe. So you both are trying to second guest each other's intentions.

So when he says he hates you and then leaves you - does it mean he loves you?

WHen he says he loves you - does it mean he hates you?

It is so hard to read mind. Would you agree that we would rather be clear about our intentions? If yes, then why not clarify them, sit down and have a heart to heart talk. Be truthful .

[shatra]

Lived and learn wrote--Someone tells you good-bye, have a nice life. Don't come to my home, I'm done. Isn't it invalidating to purposefully ignore his boundary?

---He never said don't come to my home. He has in fact invited me over. The boundary is to call first (as this is his boundary with everyone)

Once Confused wrote--

It sounds like what he says is not what he means, or at least that is what you believe. So you both are trying to second guest each other's intentions.

So when he says he hates you and then leaves you - does it mean he loves you?

WHen he says he loves you - does it mean he hates you?

---He never said he hates me.  Yes, especially with his BPD it means second-guessing his intentions. This is partly because of splitting, push-pull, and inconsistency.  What they say one day often shifts dramatically the next day.  And especially when it comes to breakups, part of the disorder is that they are very back and forth.

---Maybe I am taking comments too literally, maybe when people write back things that the BPD never said, they are paraphrasing what I had written earlier?