What was it like to be idealized?

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Do you think pwBPDs remember idealizing you? I'm sure they cannot idealize just anyone, they must meet some pretty specific requirements in my experience.

But I wonder if they can remember that they idealized someone who was more capable of giving them what they were looking for. (if they can even make that distinction) On the other hand being more desperate would definitely increase the likelihood of starting to idealize someone who is completely not compatible with them.

They seem to be more drawn to certain types of characters. Maybe at some point anyone who gives them attention?

Do you think they keep looking for partners, with whom they can repeat the same pattern?

[shellbent]

Do you think pwBPDs remember idealizing you? I'm sure they cannot idealize just anyone, they must meet some pretty specific requirements in my experience.

But I wonder if they can remember that they idealized someone who was more capable of giving them what they were looking for. (if they can even make that distinction) On the other hand being more desperate would definitely increase the likelihood of starting to idealize someone who is completely not compatible with them.

They seem to be more drawn to certain types of characters. Maybe at some point anyone who gives them attention?

Do you think they keep looking for partners, with whom they can repeat the same pattern?

[Turkish]

Do you think pwBPDs remember idealizing you? I'm sure they cannot idealize just anyone, they must meet some pretty specific requirements in my experience.

But I wonder if they can remember that they idealized someone who was more capable of giving them what they were looking for. (if they can even make that distinction) On the other hand being more desperate would definitely increase the likelihood of starting to idealize someone who is completely not compatible with them.

Mine still idealized me as she was cheating. "Turkish is everything a woman could want in a man, but I just can't love him." In her mind, it wasn't cheating (though that's how the r/s started, unknown to me until I caught her), since even though she was living with me, the r/s was done (why sneak around then? It was still wrong).

They seem to be more drawn to certain types of characters. Maybe at some point anyone who gives them attention?

Do you think they keep looking for partners, with whom they can repeat the same pattern?

Who doesn't? My Ex was in a r/s 8 months before me with a guy who literally cat-called her on the street. Turned out to be a likely NPD who stole her car, after which she got a restraining order on him. He ended up in jail a two years later on something unrelated. She was feeling so lost by her previous bf (The One) dumping her, she jumped into that one.

She's back to the young, immature type with strong narcissistic traits. The current one paints himself as a star athlete (somewhat true, but he seems to play it up), juxtaposed with the caring, loving, very religious persona. I find that just weird. I'd chalk it up to my bias, but others think he's goofy too. He has indications of being a love addict as well, so in that, they are a good match. A lot of intensity, no real commitment, as in co-habitation, kids, careers, family issues. If it keeps her happy and lessens stress on me and the kids, I guess I should thank him. I had a hard time writing that last part, but it's true.

[Blimblam]

Do you think pwBPDs remember idealizing you? I'm sure they cannot idealize just anyone, they must meet some pretty specific requirements in my experience.

But I wonder if they can remember that they idealized someone who was more capable of giving them what they were looking for. (if they can even make that distinction) On the other hand being more desperate would definitely increase the likelihood of starting to idealize someone who is completely not compatible with them.

Mine still idealized me as she was cheating. "Turkish is everything a woman could want in a man, but I just can't love him." In her mind, it wasn't cheating (though that's how the r/s started, unknown to me until I caught her), since even though she was living with me, the r/s was done (why sneak around then? It was still wrong).

They seem to be more drawn to certain types of characters. Maybe at some point anyone who gives them attention?

Do you think they keep looking for partners, with whom they can repeat the same pattern?

Who doesn't? My Ex was in a r/s 8 months before me with a guy who literally cat-called her on the street. Turned out to be a likely NPD who stole her car, after which she got a restraining order on him. He ended up in jail a two years later on something unrelated. She was feeling so lost by her previous bf (The One) dumping her, she jumped into that one.

She's back to the young, immature type with strong narcissistic traits. The current one paints himself as a star athlete (somewhat true, but he seems to play it up), juxtaposed with the caring, loving, very religious persona. I find that just weird. I'd chalk it up to my bias, but others think he's goofy too. He has indications of being a love addict as well, so in that, they are a good match. A lot of intensity, no real commitment, as in co-habitation, kids, careers, family issues. If it keeps her happy and lessens stress on me and the kids, I guess I should thank him. I had a hard time writing that last part, but it's true.

Turkish. Ugh man reading this makes me wanna cry.  I'm sorry man.  I can relate to this so much though.

[enlighten me]

Im sure they remember that they idealised you but what they where idolising was the potential for the happy ever after. After being with us for a while we start to fail to meet their expectations. They put us on the pedestal and expected us to do the impossible. At the beginning we had the potential to be the one. The answer to their prayers but we weren't. Every little slip up was another crack in the pedestal. Be it that we where five minutes late due to a car crash or we got the wrong carrots. All of these little things where huge to a pwBPD because it showed we didn't care.

So the fact that we were idolised in the beginning means nothing at the end because like us they were idolising a figment of their imagination that never really existed.

[myself]

They see the good in us but exaggerate it. Seem to want to believe it but can't handle true intimacy. It's a survival game played while on the run. When they compare themselves to us they see our flaws but even more so see their own. Choosing to not face themselves they tear us down instead. Acting like they're idealizing themselves, but it's more like the opposite of that (shame). Many of us who are painted black are actually idealized so much the pwBPD can't bear to be with us. Because they get lost/confused by their own mirrors and projections. How confusing that must feel, to go from love to hate and back again so many times in life. It's like throwing away their hearts. And ours.

[BlackandBlue]

Im sure they remember that they idealised you but what they where idolising was the potential for the happy ever after. After being with us for a while we start to fail to meet their expectations. They put us on the pedestal and expected us to do the impossible. At the beginning we had the potential to be the one. The answer to their prayers but we weren't. Every little slip up was another crack in the pedestal. Be it that we where five minutes late due to a car crash or we got the wrong carrots. All of these little things where huge to a pwBPD because it showed we didn't care.

So the fact that we were idolised in the beginning means nothing at the end because like us they were idolising a figment of their imagination that never really existed.

My ex said that I played her and led her on because I wasn't able to keep the honeymoon phase alive. She is literally blaming everything on me. She literally think I pretended to be someone I wasn't just to get her in a relationship and then change. I admit I changed... .I became so withdrawn and depressed because she was so emotionally draining.  Then she has the nerve to say I'm the emotionally draining one... .makes no sense. She broke me so bad I tried taking my life and she left me for that reason.

[enlighten me]

Hi Blackandblue

Im sorry that it got as bad as it did for you. They do have a way of draining us. Its as if they feed off of our life force and when its depleted blame us for not having any left. I hope you are recovering from your experience.

[BlackandBlue]

Hi Blackandblue

Im sorry that it got as bad as it did for you. They do have a way of draining us. Its as if they feed off of our life force and when its depleted blame us for not having any left. I hope you are recovering from your experience.

I am slowly recovering. Im going to therapy every week and reading here on these forums and it definitely helps. Although I get quite depressed at times I'm not suicidal.  I haven been since that incident when she left me. She picked a fight with me that night and wouldn't let up.

[tim_tom]

Im sure they remember that they idealised you but what they where idolising was the potential for the happy ever after. After being with us for a while we start to fail to meet their expectations. They put us on the pedestal and expected us to do the impossible. At the beginning we had the potential to be the one. The answer to their prayers but we weren't. Every little slip up was another crack in the pedestal. Be it that we where five minutes late due to a car crash or we got the wrong carrots. All of these little things where huge to a pwBPD because it showed we didn't care.

So the fact that we were idolised in the beginning means nothing at the end because like us they were idolising a figment of their imagination that never really existed.

this... .the intial idolization sets the stage for all the horrors that follow

[ScotisGone74]

I've never tried either, but if I had to guess I'd say it would be like heroin or coke.          Or having your own fan club.    Or having Your own cheering section out in the stands.      Nice for a while, but none are sustainable over the long haul.   

[Blimblam]

It's like drinking milk from your mothers teat as an infant.

[Fluff]

It's like drinking milk from your mothers teat as an infant.

+1

[Pingo]

It's like drinking milk from your mothers teat as an infant.

Exactly.  It made me feel so good.  Something I'd been craving. Approval. He adored me. I was perfect. He told me how sexy I was, how I was everything he wanted in a woman.  I was so giving, he was so appreciative.  My values similar (at least the ones he wanted to see). It set the stage for a nightmare. Because I wasn't perfect.  And I didn't always want to be sexy.  And sometimes I was tired and didn't want to cook for him or make his lunch or give him so much affection.  Sometimes I had different values and didn't like his extreme thinking. Sometimes I did things that he didn't like. I could never live up to his expectations and believe me I tried.  And then I was painted black.  The approval taken away.  The adoration gone.  No appreciation.  No affection.  My drug of choice snatched away from me (like the mother's teat I suppose). 

In our r/s the idealisation came and went.  There were many honeymoon periods followed by periods of instability and walking on eggshells then the inevitable silent treatments or on occasion rage.  It was maybe more the cycle of abuse rather than the cycle of BPD, I'm still not sure.  I married him 3 yrs into our r/s after many cycles.  How crazy is that?  The periods of instability became more frequent. Near the end the idealisation seemed so superficial, just words that he was using to manipulate me.  The trust was gone.  He was so insecure near the end, suspicious and possessive and smothered me nearly to death with this fake idealisation.  Unlike the drug it had been early on, it became something vile and disgusting and I had to get away from it.

[tim_tom]

My ex said that I played her and led her on because I wasn't able to keep the honeymoon phase alive. She is literally blaming everything on me. She literally think I pretended to be someone I wasn't just to get her in a relationship and then change. I admit I changed... .I became so withdrawn and depressed because she was so emotionally draining.  Then she has the nerve to say I'm the emotionally draining one... .makes no sense. She broke me so bad I tried taking my life and she left me for that reason.

Sounds like we had the same thing happen. Outside of trying to take my own life. Although I had one night where I strongly, strongly considered it, our last night together in fact

Mine chewed me up and spit me out, left me a shell of a man with no social life outside of her. By the end I had withdrawn, was drinking almost every night and had gained a bunch of weight.  Just couldn't handle the constant pressure to live up to her insane demands.  Then she left, and blamed it on me, said the she needed me then and I wasn't there for her. Nevermind that every time I spoke to her she was complaining about something to do with me, our house or my kids. I didn't have the energy anymore to soothe her

[bungenstein]

Mine chewed me up and spit me out, left me a shell of a man with no social life outside of her.

Is this what they to do? Try and make your life only and completely about them and nothing else, literally to eventually destroy all your relationships, your passions, your goals and your future, so that you are nothing but focused on them, your only purpose in life, and eventually what you need to survive.

[anxiety5]

They idealize based off YOUR reaction. In the beginning, they will throw lines out and I think they latch on when they see the eyes of someone who has been betrayed, hurt in the past, or has low self esteem. It has little to do with true compatibility and more to do with conditioning and lying. Most people who have low self esteem or self worth issues will go with the flow, to a fault. When you do this, they will treat you like a monkey and reward you with a banana by praising you and saying how amazing you are and how you are so much like them. How they have never met anyone like you before. This conditions the victim into giving and giving because when we have low self worth and self esteem, our value is derived by the reactions those around us project to us. So when she is telling you how wonderful you are (because you are doing what she wants, or cleaning up her house, or watching her kid, etc) that praise we get, is the idealization. But it's fake. It's conditioning. It's training you to be the good monkey as you learn that if you give give give you can always feel like you are amazing. The problem is, as you do these things, they eventually become expected, no more bananas for us monkeys. And the envelope is pushed further for us to give more and more. This breeds resentment when you inevitably realize the relationship is totally and completely one way. You instinctively push back. Then you experience your first rage episode, or 3 day shunning or the push part of the push-pull cycle. By now, sexually, emotionally, you are hooked. You desperately cling on. You apologize for HER actions. At first the make ups are intense. (more conditioning) In this, she is training you that if you give in, apologize, kiss her butt, buy her something, etc you will get your banana. Likewise she's flexing her might and letting you know that those 3 days you heard nothing from her, are just a taste if you ever dare mess with her, criticize her, or mess with her again. Now she has you. You are a trained monkey that obeys, gives, has no opinions, goes with her wants and needs, apologizes when she's being a jerk and picks a fight, kisses her butt and goes out of your way to give give give yourself to her at all times. By this time she no longer has a need to lustfully woe you, so the sex either stops or becomes mechanical and lifeless. You are in a relationship that is all give and her take, you are over ridden with anxiety as she begins to triangulate you into further submission by mentioning all the guys that hit on her, or how her ex showed up at her office.

MY point is this. There is no compatibility. The only compatibility is OUR willingness to be used and abused by someone who views you as a nothing more than an object. An object she manipulates to get what she wants and in the end, your needs will never matter.

Sounds harsh. The truth, often does.

[Infern0]

It was the best I've ever felt to be honest.

I think we have to admit though that idealisation is a two way thing. I mean she adored me and I adored her back.

You end up in this bizarre fantasy world where everything around you ends up falling away.

We would be in constant contact,  like texting every 5 minutes when we were at work,  and timing our breaks so that we could talk on the phone.

I thought she was something she wasn't too and had unrealistic expectations of what we could achieve together.

Me and her against the world was what we used to say. Everyone else just kind of faded out,  I didn't care.  :)idn't want to really see or talk to anyone else.  My entire life revolved around us.

So yeah it was the best I'd ever felt,  especially after years of being alone and mildly depressed,  but it was clearly a very unhealthy codependent type relationship.  And it turned my brain off.

If she'd asked me to move to India and become a monk I would have done it to be with her.  Free will and logical thought process.  Gone.

That's why I don't think a recycle could ever work. I'd either be back in that deluded state,  or else I'd know what I was really dealing with and probably be resentful that it just wasn't the same and took so much effort.

A normal healthy relationship with a pwBPD is not possible.  I know that,  but accepting that is proving more difficult.

[Fluff]

Wow Anxiety5. That was spot on. Add threats of suicide as another powerful tool. 

For so long I felt like one of her dogs, being trained. I recognized the techniques from dog training, but it was so well played, half-covered under an illusionary layer of stories, lies and hero projections unpenetratable for naive eyes in love. And when I vaguely saw these techniques past the illusion I just couldn't accept it as reality.

Wow, I (let myself) be brainwashed. That explains why I have such a hard time to let this go. Wow. F*ck this.

[BlackandBlue]

They idealize based off YOUR reaction. In the beginning, they will throw lines out and I think they latch on when they see the eyes of someone who has been betrayed, hurt in the past, or has low self esteem. It has little to do with true compatibility and more to do with conditioning and lying. Most people who have low self esteem or self worth issues will go with the flow, to a fault. When you do this, they will treat you like a monkey and reward you with a banana by praising you and saying how amazing you are and how you are so much like them. How they have never met anyone like you before. This conditions the victim into giving and giving because when we have low self worth and self esteem, our value is derived by the reactions those around us project to us. So when she is telling you how wonderful you are (because you are doing what she wants, or cleaning up her house, or watching her kid, etc) that praise we get, is the idealization. But it's fake. It's conditioning. It's training you to be the good monkey as you learn that if you give give give you can always feel like you are amazing. The problem is, as you do these things, they eventually become expected, no more bananas for us monkeys. And the envelope is pushed further for us to give more and more. This breeds resentment when you inevitably realize the relationship is totally and completely one way. You instinctively push back. Then you experience your first rage episode, or 3 day shunning or the push part of the push-pull cycle. By now, sexually, emotionally, you are hooked. You desperately cling on. You apologize for HER actions. At first the make ups are intense. (more conditioning) In this, she is training you that if you give in, apologize, kiss her butt, buy her something, etc you will get your banana. Likewise she's flexing her might and letting you know that those 3 days you heard nothing from her, are just a taste if you ever dare mess with her, criticize her, or mess with her again. Now she has you. You are a trained monkey that obeys, gives, has no opinions, goes with her wants and needs, apologizes when she's being a jerk and picks a fight, kisses her butt and goes out of your way to give give give yourself to her at all times. By this time she no longer has a need to lustfully woe you, so the sex either stops or becomes mechanical and lifeless. You are in a relationship that is all give and her take, you are over ridden with anxiety as she begins to triangulate you into further submission by mentioning all the guys that hit on her, or how her ex showed up at her office.

MY point is this. There is no compatibility. The only compatibility is OUR willingness to be used and abused by someone who views you as a nothing more than an object. An object she manipulates to get what she wants and in the end, your needs will never matter.

Sounds harsh. The truth, often does.

Do you think they actually know they are doing this or is it on a subconscious level? Everything you said describes my relationship with my exBPDgf. You're right... .The truth does hurt

[Blimblam]

They idealize based off YOUR reaction. In the beginning, they will throw lines out and I think they latch on when they see the eyes of someone who has been betrayed, hurt in the past, or has low self esteem. It has little to do with true compatibility and more to do with conditioning and lying. Most people who have low self esteem or self worth issues will go with the flow, to a fault. When you do this, they will treat you like a monkey and reward you with a banana by praising you and saying how amazing you are and how you are so much like them. How they have never met anyone like you before. This conditions the victim into giving and giving because when we have low self worth and self esteem, our value is derived by the reactions those around us project to us. So when she is telling you how wonderful you are (because you are doing what she wants, or cleaning up her house, or watching her kid, etc) that praise we get, is the idealization. But it's fake. It's conditioning. It's training you to be the good monkey as you learn that if you give give give you can always feel like you are amazing. The problem is, as you do these things, they eventually become expected, no more bananas for us monkeys. And the envelope is pushed further for us to give more and more. This breeds resentment when you inevitably realize the relationship is totally and completely one way. You instinctively push back. Then you experience your first rage episode, or 3 day shunning or the push part of the push-pull cycle. By now, sexually, emotionally, you are hooked. You desperately cling on. You apologize for HER actions. At first the make ups are intense. (more conditioning) In this, she is training you that if you give in, apologize, kiss her butt, buy her something, etc you will get your banana. Likewise she's flexing her might and letting you know that those 3 days you heard nothing from her, are just a taste if you ever dare mess with her, criticize her, or mess with her again. Now she has you. You are a trained monkey that obeys, gives, has no opinions, goes with her wants and needs, apologizes when she's being a jerk and picks a fight, kisses her butt and goes out of your way to give give give yourself to her at all times. By this time she no longer has a need to lustfully woe you, so the sex either stops or becomes mechanical and lifeless. You are in a relationship that is all give and her take, you are over ridden with anxiety as she begins to triangulate you into further submission by mentioning all the guys that hit on her, or how her ex showed up at her office.

MY point is this. There is no compatibility. The only compatibility is OUR willingness to be used and abused by someone who views you as a nothing more than an object. An object she manipulates to get what she wants and in the end, your needs will never matter.

Sounds harsh. The truth, often does.

Do you think they actually know they are doing this or is it on a subconscious level? Everything you said describes my relationship with my exBPDgf. You're right... .The truth does hurt

This might sound wierd but I think it's both. Depending on who's watching. It's like an internal push pull within them.  They want to believe it but the don't sort if thing.

[anxiety5]

Don't let it hurt, I only know all that because I myself experienced that. Yes I think they are aware of it because you are serving a need for them. Filling a void. They need to find someone who they can latch onto who will tell them how amazing they are, put up with their nonsense without criticizing their fragile ego and anticipate their needs. THAT is love to them, whereas your view of the relationship at first was, I want to meet a smart, beautiful woman to share my life with and settle down. Notice, you are focusing on the relationship. They focus on themselves. They are egocentric. They are narcissistic. The defense mechanism in these individuals is something that amazed me. It's unbelievable the depths and layers to this system. This defense system is what allows them to protect that fragile ego while absorbing zero accountability for anything. They are stuck. Immature souls who have not grown or fully matured. They are not a complete emotional being. I do think they know exactly what they are doing. They don't do it to be sadistic, they do it because their lack of self worth is dependent upon servitude and control in order to validate their false sense of grandiosity. They need you to reinforce their idealized self. Where it becomes evil, is with the other traits all combined into one. That's what leaves that sick feeling in your stomach that this person is not human. It's the defenses, the sense of entitlement, that rules don't apply to them, and their lack of empathy. Have you ever had an incredibly bad day that is overwhelmingly busy? Perhaps on such a day you neglected your friends or family and instead paid laser focus to the tasks at hand. They have this vision on themselves. With someone so focused on themselves personally, it's impossible for them to even find the mental bandwidth to focus on you. That is why they condition you. Belittle you to never complain about your day, rage when you are demanding of their time and energy, it's why they are controlling and want you secluded. They want you focused on them at all times. You are conditioned to obsession. They are hyper sexual at first. They are full of compliments at first when you do something minor for them. This is all conditioning for you to give and give and give. As time goes on they will only give you that physical aspect or adulation in rare times when you are nearly broken or they sense you may leave. Why does a heroine addict use? I mean, they don't have teeth, live in the streets and pass out as soon as they take it. It's because they are stuck forever chasing the first high. That first rush of the drug in their system. It never feels that good again, but they will kill themselves chasing that high. Why can't a woman be a drug? Heroine may make you feel good, but when you meet a woman who is gorgeous, infatuated with you, complimentary, giving, loving, encapsulating, fun and unparalleled physical chemistry, that is EVERY bit as engrossing and addicting as a drug. You feel love. It's actually a BIGGER high, and it lasts a long time. That is essentially what we become. Enthralled in a hopeless death spiral, constantly chasing the high from when we first met this person. So enmeshed in our habits to give, please, nurture, caretake, or put out fires in order to hopefully get our fix, that we don't even see that we are being used. It is illogical for a person to seek love, find it, be given it unconditionally and then pull away and belittle the person who is giving them their all. If anything, if they really disliked us, they would leave right? Why then do they suck us back? It's because we serve a purpose. We become conditioned robots whose existence is perpetually stuck in a mindset that if we give a little more (chase that high) we will get that feeling back we once felt in the beginning. And along the way we end up buying them things, doing the tasks they don't want to do, and provide them the ego boost they are dependent upon. Is there ever a happy ending here? No. Even robots break down. After giving every ounce of ourselves, alienating our friends and family to devote ourselves to this cause, after doing our all, do we ever get anywhere? Would someone ever cheat on someone so selfless? It's a game to them. They are aware of it. And they are incapable of processing the feeling of guilt, there is no empathy. And their defenses do the final work of devaluing us, of deflecting everything so well that in the end they truly believe they were wronged and things did not work because of us.

[BlackandBlue]

WOW... .that's some intense stuff right there!

[Blimblam]

Don't let it hurt, I only know all that because I myself experienced that. Yes I think they are aware of it because you are serving a need for them. Filling a void. They need to find someone who they can latch onto who will tell them how amazing they are, put up with their nonsense without criticizing their fragile ego and anticipate their needs. THAT is love to them, whereas your view of the relationship at first was, I want to meet a smart, beautiful woman to share my life with and settle down. Notice, you are focusing on the relationship. They focus on themselves. They are egocentric. They are narcissistic. The defense mechanism in these individuals is something that amazed me. It's unbelievable the depths and layers to this system. This defense system is what allows them to protect that fragile ego while absorbing zero accountability for anything. They are stuck. Immature souls who have not grown or fully matured. They are not a complete emotional being. I do think they know exactly what they are doing. They don't do it to be sadistic, they do it because their lack of self worth is dependent upon servitude and control in order to validate their false sense of grandiosity. They need you to reinforce their idealized self. Where it becomes evil, is with the other traits all combined into one. That's what leaves that sick feeling in your stomach that this person is not human. It's the defenses, the sense of entitlement, that rules don't apply to them, and their lack of empathy. Have you ever had an incredibly bad day that is overwhelmingly busy? Perhaps on such a day you neglected your friends or family and instead paid laser focus to the tasks at hand. They have this vision on themselves. With someone so focused on themselves personally, it's impossible for them to even find the mental bandwidth to focus on you. That is why they condition you. Belittle you to never complain about your day, rage when you are demanding of their time and energy, it's why they are controlling and want you secluded. They want you focused on them at all times. You are conditioned to obsession. They are hyper sexual at first. They are full of compliments at first when you do something minor for them. This is all conditioning for you to give and give and give. As time goes on they will only give you that physical aspect or adulation in rare times when you are nearly broken or they sense you may leave. Why does a heroine addict use? I mean, they don't have teeth, live in the streets and pass out as soon as they take it. It's because they are stuck forever chasing the first high. That first rush of the drug in their system. It never feels that good again, but they will kill themselves chasing that high. Why can't a woman be a drug? Heroine may make you feel good, but when you meet a woman who is gorgeous, infatuated with you, complimentary, giving, loving, encapsulating, fun and unparalleled physical chemistry, that is EVERY bit as engrossing and addicting as a drug. You feel love. It's actually a BIGGER high, and it lasts a long time. That is essentially what we become. Enthralled in a hopeless death spiral, constantly chasing the high from when we first met this person. So enmeshed in our habits to give, please, nurture, caretake, or put out fires in order to hopefully get our fix, that we don't even see that we are being used. It is illogical for a person to seek love, find it, be given it unconditionally and then pull away and belittle the person who is giving them their all. If anything, if they really disliked us, they would leave right? Why then do they suck us back? It's because we serve a purpose. We become conditioned robots whose existence is perpetually stuck in a mindset that if we give a little more (chase that high) we will get that feeling back we once felt in the beginning. And along the way we end up buying them things, doing the tasks they don't want to do, and provide them the ego boost they are dependent upon. Is there ever a happy ending here? No. Even robots break down. After giving every ounce of ourselves, alienating our friends and family to devote ourselves to this cause, after doing our all, do we ever get anywhere? Would someone ever cheat on someone so selfless? It's a game to them. They are aware of it. And they are incapable of processing the feeling of guilt, there is no empathy. And their defenses do the final work of devaluing us, of deflecting everything so well that in the end they truly believe they were wronged and things did not work because of us.

My ex has empathy. She has the capacity to be the most giving compassionate person I have ever known in my life. I have no doubt about this in my mind.  The disorder carpmentalizes her perception. The disorder was triggered And took this part of her away from me and gave it to someone else. Unfortunately those people just use her. Their was a pureness to my ex like I have never known except in an old growth forest.

[shellbent]

My ex has empathy. She has the capacity to be the most giving compassionate person I have ever known in my life. I have no doubt about this in my mind.  The disorder carpmentalizes her perception. The disorder was triggered And took this part of her away from me and gave it to someone else. Unfortunately those people just use her. Their was a pureness to my ex like I have never known except in an old growth forest.

This is the same way I felt about my ex. I wonder if it was what I wanted to see, or whether it was a reflection of what she saw in me.

I felt understood like never before, like she could calm me down like nothing else. It seemed as if she was just as giving as I am in a relationship. And I was all that she had been waiting for in her life.

She did have problems in her every day life, getting to places and sticking to activities we previously agreed to. She always put other people's feelings before her own. So she was constantly drained of energy.

Until one day the trigger started things up in her mind, and then the only way for her to deal with this things is bail. She never spoke her mind. All she said was "I am a relationship addict and I need to be alone."

So maybe in the back of her mind she had all these negative thoughts, but I never felt used by her, only frustrated that she was so all over the place.

In the end she gave up, I was certain in my mind that there was nothing too wrong for us to be together. So naturally I tried to hold on, and she could tell I would do anything to make her happy, basically then I was under her control. She still couldn't face whatever things happened in between. Maybe I triggered both and it went from abandonment to engulfment.

In some way I feel like our relationship existed only for the sole purpose of ripping apart two souls and unearthing the most horrible abandonment fears that have been lurking in the both of us since the beginning of (our) time.

I felt like we were the same two souls on a search for "someone special", somebody who knows exactly what it feels like to be rejected and abandoned. When you have so much and can give others so much of emotions, it seems like everyone is ripping you off. Making you feel unlovable, unimportant, needy, used, and betrayed.

This is where the hypersensitivity starts out, since almost nobody can reciprocate the type of loving care that the pwBPD feels in moments that overwhelm their bodies, they feel short changed by everyone. I think when they met us, they didn't feel that by letting out pandora's box they would scare us away. When I sensed that she had so much care and deep emotions I instantly felt connected to her in a way, that she became instantly able to open up to me. It actually made me feel much more alive to be sharing such intense emotions with someone I feel close to.

So the main difference between her and I, is while I am not afraid to confront someone and tell them (even when they have hurt me bad) how I feel about a certain situation, she was unable to do just that, the only thing they could do is cut off the limb. I stay to talk it over, while she runs and made up her mind and imagines the worst possible things imaginable. All made up in their minds, but if I have a feeling that has no proof of someone wanting to hurt me, I will go to them and make sure that I am just imagining this and that they never really did want to harm me.

This is the hardest part for me to understand, how can someone feel so unworthy that they will not tell you their opinions about the "problems" or their feelings. (eg.: in the r/s.) How come I still couldn't make her feel good enough, important enough to want to work things out, or at least make sure that my feelings are aligned with the truth.

[anxiety5]

I'm not disagreeing with you. You obviously would know this more than me as I've never met her. I just want to mention, be sure not confuse empathy with compassion. Not trying to sound patronizing. I myself mistook the two for each other. My ex was giving too, and even very thoughtful at certain times. She was compassionate to strangers or co-workers, etc. She definitely lacked empathy when her symptoms were present. Someone who is egocentrically focused on themselves is incapable of empathy. Empathy as defined by the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes. People who are controlling and demanding usually lack empathy. Because it's about their needs being met. They lack any capacity to empathize with the fact that you have a separate life, or things that you had to get done.

[Pingo]

They need to find someone who they can latch onto who will tell them how amazing they are, put up with their nonsense without criticizing their fragile ego and anticipate their needs. THAT is love to them, whereas your view of the relationship at first was, I want to meet a smart, beautiful woman to share my life with and settle down. Notice, you are focusing on the relationship. They focus on themselves. They are egocentric. They are narcissistic. The defense mechanism in these individuals is something that amazed me. It's unbelievable the depths and layers to this system. This defense system is what allows them to protect that fragile ego while absorbing zero accountability for anything. They are stuck.

Anxiety5, you have very wise words, you are telling my story, every bit of it.  But I have a defense system also.  That is why I ended up being caretaker to this individual and allowing my own needs to be put aside.  I didn't do it consciously.  I didn't decide I'm going to use this person to fulfill my needs.  The patterns are just ingrained.  I needed the shake up of this BU to realise that I have these compulsions. That I have these dysfunctional defenses.  I use r/ss as well as other things (food, alcohol, sex, spending money) to numb the pain I was in.  I never became an alcoholic, I didn't become obese or a sex addict and I was able to remove myself from this r/s.  Why?  B/c I am self aware I guess.  I could look at myself and see that I needed to get a hold of myself.

It's the defenses, the sense of entitlement, that rules don't apply to them, and their lack of empathy.

I think this is what separates us from them.  His sense of entitlement meant he could use and abuse me to have control over me and possess me like an object.  I didn't want to be an object any longer.  I wanted to be seen and respected as a person.  Was this entitlement a conscious decision on his part?  I'm not sure.  I decided it didn't matter, it was abuse nonetheless.

Like you stated, Anxiety5, it is an addiction and I am going through the withdrawal like a heroine addict.  When I realised this it gave me a lot of compassion for myself for staying for so long and putting up with so much.  I stopped being self-condemning and started to do everything I could do to break the addiction.  That is why NC is so important as well as not putting myself in situations where I'll be triggered.  4 mths out I'm starting to feel like I'm detaching, starting to get 'sober'.  

[Pingo]

I'm not disagreeing with you. You obviously would know this more than me as I've never met her. I just want to mention, be sure not confuse empathy with compassion. Not trying to sound patronizing. I myself mistook the two for each other. My ex was giving too, and even very thoughtful at certain times. She was compassionate to strangers or co-workers, etc. She definitely lacked empathy when her symptoms were present. Someone who is egocentrically focused on themselves is incapable of empathy. Empathy as defined by the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes. People who are controlling and demanding usually lack empathy. Because it's about their needs being met. They lack any capacity to empathize with the fact that you have a separate life, or things that you had to get done.

But isn't compassion a result of empathy?  Don't you have to recognise others' suffering and pain to feel compassion?  Could it be perhaps that these people are more likely to show empathy/compassion with people who don't trigger their defenses of survival?  Could explain why the SO is usually the one who never gets any empathy/compassion from the pwBPD.   Also, I think we need to remember that there are different degrees of the disorder.  Some may cope better than others outside the r/s and are more able to show empathy/compassion to others.  In remembering that they have the emotional maturity of a child, this could explain why they have such a hard time with this.  My son who is 10 is so compassionate for animals or people who are suffering, he is really a sensitive little guy.  But then other times he's totally self-absorbed and selfish, especially towards his family.

[anxiety5]

They understand compassion because without it, there wouldn't be any idealization phase. They can be very compassionate towards their significant other during the pursuit phase. Much like they can be extremely seductive yet once you are married, essentially become A-Sexual. Everything is a means to an end. Compassion can be part of their repertoire during the pursuit or initial relationship phase prior to marriage. Therefore as a tool, it can resurface from time to time if it is needed to illicit the response they desire from the other person or newly met person. You also must remember a couple FOUNDATIONS of BPD, that you will see anywhere you read on it. First,  these people "remove a mask" and show their true self. They are obviously capable of faking compassion and empathy because if they weren't than we would be so turned off by how sick and detached they are at the very beginning, we would never date them. They understand these are human elements and they temporarily possess them, again during the pursuit phase. It's part of what leaves us in awe of this "amazing person" The mask is removed once we are enmeshed and hooked. Then the act, or facade can end. Also, one of the key elements of enforcing boundaries in these people if you are attempting to work through things with them, is paying attention to actions not words. Again, this is proof in the fact they are adept at faking emotions, or what we would deem to be humanizing elements of character. Even if you catch them in the act of doing something, it's never guilt that is triggered. It's shame. They do not feel bad about getting caught. It's why they attempt to deflect, deny and project it back. They feel shame for being caught. Once again, because they are smart enough to "understand" the way humans act, and the behavioral and cultural norms in society. Therefore the shame is triggered when there is undeniable proof that they are an act. When they can no longer pretend to be Mr. or Miss. Perfect. 

They feel compassion when feeling that way can get someone else to give them what they want. Empathy never gets them anything because the entire principal is understanding HOW SOMEONE ELSE feels and responding accordingly. This defies their entire nature. Hyper focused on their own needs, egocentric and narcissistic to a fault, these principles are polar opposites to thinking in any terms of someone else's needs or experience. Empathy to them is a barrier. It's an excuse. It's the validation of why you may not live up to their needs (perhaps you are sick and couldn't do what they want) And if they had empathy for you, they would understand this and go easy on you rather than drive you into the ground to extract everything they can from you.

[anxiety5]

P.S. recognizing someone else's suffering and pain have nothing to do with empathy. That's intuition. Something they definitely have. That entire principal is why they can spot a codependent from a mile away. They hear the yearning, the pain, the suffering in this person's stories, behaviors and responses to their behaviors. They recognize these things absolutely and totally. Their lack of empathy is quite evident by the fact that after they recognize the fragility of a person who is essentially an enabler because of past trauma, instead of nurturing this person they use these things to their advantage. Knowing that this person has attachment issues, or is a fixer or rescuer, they end up taking you for a ride to push all of the buttons to trigger you into an obsession with them so that they can have unmitigated control over you and your willingness to bear witness to their objectification and abuse of you. This is not empathy. It's a predator in the hunt.

[Fluff]

Do People with Borderline Disorder Have Empathy?

www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201309/do-people-borderline-disorder-have-empathy

[anxiety5]

Ah, thanks Fluf! Perfect

[Pingo]

P.S. recognizing someone else's suffering and pain have nothing to do with empathy. That's intuition. Something they definitely have. That entire principal is why they can spot a codependent from a mile away. They hear the yearning, the pain, the suffering in this person's stories, behaviors and responses to their behaviors. They recognize these things absolutely and totally. Their lack of empathy is quite evident by the fact that after they recognize the fragility of a person who is essentially an enabler because of past trauma, instead of nurturing this person they use these things to their advantage. Knowing that this person has attachment issues, or is a fixer or rescuer, they end up taking you for a ride to push all of the buttons to trigger you into an obsession with them so that they can have unmitigated control over you and your willingness to bear witness to their objectification and abuse of you. This is not empathy. It's a predator in the hunt.

From an article on theTricycle website about compassion meditation:

"Psychologist and primate researcher Frans B.M. de Waal began this conversation by identifying empathy as an automated, involuntary, biologically-inbuilt reaction.  He contrasted the reactive component of empathy with the predominantly cognitive dimension of compassion or “self-aware sympathy” exhibited only in animals capable of mirror self-recognition."

If this is true then I would think both empathy and compassion are directed from being able to look outside of yourself/ your own needs.  I can see this being near impossible with a pwBPD.  Maybe it can come out at times in small doses but not in r/s where their survival is at stake.  I think what you are saying is that they have 'pseudo compassion' in order to draw us in, it's all a calculated act and that's why the idealisation phase ends when they 'have us'?

[Fluff]

Just playing around here, but I think the pwBPD looks up to us as untouchable parents in some sense (that they try to control). It's ok to rebel against your parents without any real concern for their feelings. Parents are super humans. Rebel against the parent, it's your right, they can take it. Be devastated when they couldn't take it. Make sure they don't leave. Repeat.

Well, I have read this so many times but it clicked for me now. When you're in the parent role they don't have to use empathy/compassion/sympathy. You're an all mighty parent.

Edit: You use the empathy/compassion/sympathy for someone in a worse position than you. Or someone that's "weak" at the moment in some sense. You don't worry about hurting someone that's super strong.

Edit2: I don't know... .

[myself]

that's why the idealisation phase ends when they 'have us'?

They're wired for the chase, and for running away, not for staying. Deep down, it's about trying to not 'have' themselves. Self-sabotage. Once they have us, they don't really know what to do. Controlling, and out of control, feelings become overwhelming. It's when they start waking up from one dream and when another is beginning. Bad patterns overlapping. They also find they don't know how to handle that we can't really save them. How to face that we also idealize them but they know they can't live up to it either.

[anxiety5]

Your parent comment is true. What is love defined as? Mostly everyone has their own interpretation. It's one of the strangest things. Everyone seeks it. Everyone has felt it, yet nobody can define it. In the early stages of childhood if a parent is unreachable, distant, or purposefully neglectful of a child, this can plant a seed. Parents are idealized when we are children. We only grow opinions of them later. In essence, if the idealization of an unreciprocated, unavailable person occurs, it can leave an impactful emotional disturbance. The feeling of chasing, of depravity, of pursuit is how the child felt towards the idealized parent. This becomes their interpretation of what love is. That's why the BPD often times is associated with inverse patterns wherein if you love them more, they love you less and if you leave they come chasing. It's not sadistic. It's very real to them. That feeling that we've all felt in the chase of another person, awakens those deeply imbedded feelings of what they view as love. Unless they seek help, if they are a low functioning BPD, they will spend eternity stuck in this pattern of relationships. Psychologically they are trying to resolve the issue they had as a child, by recreating these relationships as adults. Without awareness, they don't understand these things. To them, they don't feel that feeling of being alive once the relationship is valid and secure. It's not that they are "bored" It's their passion simply fades and they don't feel it anymore because they are no longer in pursuit of you. This is also a reason why BPDs and Narcissists often team up. Narcissists and their fear of engulfment, will push a pursuing BPD away, keeping them laser focused, and "in love" with the person they can't have.

It's sad really.

[findingmyselfagain]

The idealization felt like "falling in love." I'd never really let myself go in head over heels before. She came on very strong with the love-bombs, soulmate talk, and affection. I bought the story that all of the previous men abused her. Now I know that maybe they did, in her mind, but after how she destroyed our relationship I don't know if that's the whole truth. I can remember when we first met that she would just stare at me sometimes while I was driving down the road, just looking at me and idealizing me as much as you could imagine. Within just 2-3 weeks she was letting her daughter call me "daddy" and telling me how much she wanted to have children with me.

I was younger then and more naive, and had never experienced anything like the borderline experience. I take love more seriously now, and I wait before I allow myself to get emotionally attached. My last girlfriend had some qualities that wasn't compatible with what I need, so allowing myself to move slower (possibly slower than her) made it easier to end things. I wish I hadn't bought into the idealization so quickly and easily. Who doesn't want to fall in love though? For a long time I just thought that I finally and really found the One.

[BlackandBlue]

But what if they are a high functioning pwBPD? I've thought of my exgf as being high functioning because she is intelligent and is good a wearing the mask but she seems to be stuck in the relationship pattern you described. It's crazy but now that I think back to a conversation we had early in our relationship right when it was taking off, she said she's in a a continuous cycle where she gets involved with men like her dad... .someone she didn't think to highly of. This was a total red flag I ignored. I don't think I'm anything like her dad thou.

[dermo]

she introduced me to her 10 year old son very early on and i have found that difficult in terms of NC... .the penny also dropped to me that she had done her best to alienate him from his father... .even though our relationship was faltering she wanted me to take her and the son on the first contact with his dad in 4 years. This despite the fact that she was having an affair with a married Police Officer anyway. Its sole purpose was to wind the boys dad up.

Her parenting with him was pure alienation... .dad does not give us any money (he is unemployed and she has a good job), yes you do not have dad about but you have a wonderful mother... .she took umbrage at some of my comments... .

the irony is my ex was the same and post divorce i had to battle Parental Alienation with my ex... .i was being drawn to the same type of woman... .their other similarities were gaslighting... .usually with reference to affairs... .

Idealized? We were going to buy a cottage in France, i was going to look after her when she was older if she ever got ill, sexually she said she worshipped my ££$$... .what was there not to like?

In the end they become like a very powerful drug... .they drift between your reality and somewhere else... .the hardest and deepest scar is one i had in both relationships... .you make love and as you do tell them you love them... .you are exposed as you ever can be... .and during that time they are having another relationship... .

i dont think i could ever figure it out and never will... .it is inverted abuse... .they have been abused... .they become the abuser... .

[Blimblam]

They put themselves in a others shoes so much they become their own shoes. It's just not sustainable. It eventually triggers in both of us expectations the other can not live up to and it falls apart. There is empathy, extreme empathy but carpmentalized. When that compartment is shut off to us it blows our mind.

[anxiety5]

high functioning doesn't really differentiate. I think you should look up the different types of BPDs. You may have been dating the more lower key type who doesn't have these outbursts as frequently. But the person I dated has a six figure manager job and a graduate degree. She was what they call the "queen" type. Her emotions are raw, exposed and volatile. No matter what the type, the only people who seem to be aware are the immediate family and the spouse. The immediate family are most likely BPD themselves, they raised them. Or at the very least enablers because that's how this character was raised by and nurtured to begin with so they had a play in creating them. Some red flags looking back, they don't have many close friends. The ones they do have are superficial. There isn't a "real" friendship. It's more akin to 2 people who barely know each other but both want to go see the same movie. Witnessing the conversations, it's all a facade, there is no depth in the dialogue. It's like hanging out with someone you don't know, you aren't going to really be yourself. This is also a chance to see their act in full play. More red flags, they will tell you about their ex's but there is always cloudy/shady ways they split up. Never a defined event, or moment. I now see that's because when things get bad these people find your replacement and phase you out. And the relationships have an overlap that they will never admit, but many times they were seeing both people for a period of time and chose one over the other. Also, they rarely have any identifiable passions or hobbies. If they do, they skip around. One day they are Tiger Woods in training, golfing daily. The next month there are cob webs on the clubs in the garage. They also are always changing things. And doing so often illogically. They will all the sudden replace a perfectly good couch, get a new car, change the color of paint on all the walls, etc. They immerse themselves in these projects. A lot of times they never start or get finished. It's just an insight into their frantic ever changing focus. Apply that to you as their significant other, and although perfectly good, one day they will be shopping for your replacement for seemingly no reason.

[Lion Fire]

The idealization was intoxicating to say the least!

She finally caught me at a vulnerable time in my life... .my business was in it's last legs, I was selling my home and generally things were in a shakey state. I was single at the time and she came on strong, for 2 years on and off. She was skillful I'll give her that. She'd located my weak spots... .self esteem issues, I was living a solitary and somewhat austere life and she would say the right things at the right times.

Once I took the bait after 2 years of pressure by her, it was like I entered wonderland   It was all about soul mates, lets build a home, have kids, travel, "roll down hills together", make love every day, go to music festivals... .think big and live our dreams. She used the words unit, cell love, forever love, UNITed etc every day. She laid on the sex stuff big as well.

I overruled my instinct and the massive red flags and went for it.

It really was too good to be true. A fantasy world she created and I bought it and ran with her.

Like wonderland... .

Once things switched, when normal living arrived with day to day stuff she spun out and went into a hysterical panic and brutally smashed the relationship.

It was frightening and confusing. It still is in a way.

The part I miss the most is the dream which was everything I ever wanted. She gave me a glimpse of that and then violently tore it to shreds.

[Blimblam]

I think the subtype has a lot to do with it.

My ex was a waif.  

She has a friend who is a BPD nar comorbid which manifests as the queen she didn't have empathy.

She had another friend who was BPD/histrionic manifest as the siren/queen again little to no empathy.

I believe the subtype of the queen to be a narcisistic persona they adopt and it sucks up their capacity for empathy.

My mom was a waif/witch

When in waif mode she had a degree of empathy. She has since become waif/witch/queen/hermit. I believe the queen to suck up all her capacity for empathy. The queen becomes a vortex within their own being.

[BlackandBlue]

I do believe my exBPDgf's mom is either BPD or npd. The first time I met that lady I sensed something was quite right. She seemed really full of herself and really disrespectful. She definitely has no empathy toward anyone either. From conversations with my ex her mom was very hard on her with everything. Whether it was in school or in sports the she pushed her really hard... .too hard in my opinion. My ex had the 4th highest gpa in high school and is in a computer engineering program in college... .that's why I considered her high functioning. I have looked different types of BPD and I thought she seemed like a waif to me... .I could be wrong thou. I'm not sure if she was cheating on me or not... .I don't think so but the thought of it is making my heart really ache :'(

[Blimblam]

I do believe my exBPDgf's mom is either BPD or npd. The first time I met that lady I sensed something was quite right. She seemed really full of herself and really disrespectful. She definitely has no empathy toward anyone either. From conversations with my ex her mom was very hard on her with everything. Whether it was in school or in sports the she pushed her really hard... .to hard in my opinion. My ex had the 4th highest gap in high school and is in a computer engineering program in college... .that's why I considered her high functioning. I have looked different types of BPD and I thought she seemed like a waif to me... .I could be wrong thou. I'm not sure if she was cheating on me or not... .I don't think so but the thought of it is making my heart really ache :'(

I think they have the capacity for the other subtypes within them. I really think identifying which mode they are in is a lot more important than what we talk about on the boards also. I have seen all the subtypes within a pwBPD before. They are all in their.

[fred6]

By this time she no longer has a need to lustfully woe you, so the sex either stops or becomes mechanical and lifeless.  

Exactly what happened. After about 7-8 months she pretty much shut down sexually.