I start to feel defensive and blamed falsely

[RestlessWanderer]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=347173.new#new

So here’s a scenario that plays out in different forms, but the theme is basically the same.

“RW, I see this unfinished job here on the floor. I’m not going to finish it. I’m not doing these things anymore. I’m going to now be the person you have told your friends that I am. You say I’m a bad person, so that’s what I’m going to be. I’m not going to be the “maid” anymore. You want to live in filth, so you can do the cleaning now. “

I start to feel defensive and blamed falsely for the state of things. I do my best to calm that feeling in me and not use that to form what I say next. But I stumble with thinking about what to say instead. Then I can’t think of anything to say that doesn’t come off as defensive or that points out her role in things. I know that either of those choices would escalate things, but I just get stuck and end up silent.

Since this type of thing is common, what is the concept to use as the framework for a good response?

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[formflier]

Hmm...

Well...there is no point "debating" or "fixing" her point of view.

So...I would probably say. 

"I hear you.."

And then go about your business.

I would NOT clean up the mess.  (there is another "rule" of mine that says if they ask nicely..they should get it...if "BPD asks"..hear them and move on)

Maybe clean it up later when she is not around. 

How have you been handling those in the past? 

There are other responses you can consider.

"I see.."

"Ohhh.."

"I'll give that some thought..."

Can you come up with a few more in similar fashion?

Best,

FF

[RestlessWanderer]

I am working on improving how I handle those types of situations. I like the “I see” response, that feels natural.

Where I fail is when I think I’m engaging in a normal conversation, but it ends up going sideways. She will ask me a question then refute my reply. If I try to clarify things it only makes things worse. It is so hard to not get upset with that crazy making. It feels like a witch hunt when I’m being called a liar and the truth doesn’t matter, it falls on deaf ears. I know better than getting sucked in, but it always starts out benign then turns into twisting my words. I have no idea how to handle these situations. The best thing I can think of is to stop talking as quickly as possible.

[formflier]

Can you give me an example or two (as much detail as possible) of the normal conversation, something is refuted and then things go sideways.

Also do some thinking about how many of these things go normally and how many go sideways?

I think that an "authentic" and "honest" response is likely best when thing go sideways.

"Oh babe...this conversation has taken an unexpected turn.  I'm going to take some time to think about what's been said."  (then take the time)

Best,

FF

[RestlessWanderer]

I can think of two recent events that are great examples.

5 days ago I decided I needed to run to the post office to mail some Halloween cards my son had made for his cousins. Since it was a Saturday I knew I had to get there in the next few minutes before closing time. I also saw it as an opportunity to show an effort  break my pattern of procrastination (something that has harmed my relationship with my wife). Upon returning my wife asked why I felt the need to go right then. I told her I wanted to get the cards there before the post office closed. She insisted that I was expecting a package and was trying to keep it hidden from her. At that point there was no convincing her otherwise. We went back and forth a few more times but I gave up once I sensed her getting more upset and on the verge of disregulation. Later in the day she text me with a question, then followed up with returning to the post office issue and accusing me of lying. I kept from engaging in more arguments on the matter and told her she could go to the post office herself and ask the post mistress about my visit.

Last night was another good example of this type of event. For some context, we nearly went on a trip this week out of state to celebrate my wife’s birthday. When we were discussing it I told her that I would have to self isolate for 14 days before I could return to work. I’ve been working from home but have had to go in every three weeks for the last couple of months. So, I would have to swap weeks with a coworker in order to comply with my employers policy. I also had a mandatory random COVID test last week at my job.
Last night my wife asked why I was self isolating since I had a negative Covid test. I replied that I wasn’t self isolating and only would have been required to if we had gone out of state. She then asked why I had to swap weeks with my coworker. I told her that I was still on my normal schedule of going in every three weeks. I then said that she must have been confused about what I had told her of what I would have done if we had gone on the trip out of state. She then insisted that I was lying to her about my work schedule, saying that it suddenly changed to every three weeks. I offered to show her my work calendar on my phone or work computer. She began to mock me and my usage of my devices to keep track of my schedule. I tried a couple more times to straighten things out but she insisted that I was lying. She also peppered in some insults which were getting meaner as time passed. Our volume started to get gradually louder. At this point I told her that I was no longer going to participate in this conversation. With her in the bedroom and me on the couch we both did some more muttering to ourselves until we calmed down. I stopped myself pretty quickly but she went on for a while, just loud enough for me to hear. But I remained quiet and went back to the show I was watching. Our son slept through all of this.

It seems like this is happening with more frequency lately. Even if I’m agreeing with her in a conversation, she starts to act as if I’m arguing. In these cases I try to clearly state that I agree so she can keep from thinking that I’m trying to argue.

When conversations start to go sideways, I do my best to exit as quickly as possible. Admittedly, I could do it more gently as I often feel frustrated by the false accusations of lying. But I usually see the futility of refuting her claims early on and ends my participation. If she wants me to continue to listen and I walk away she usually gets more upset. Sometimes I will not leave the room but will go back to what I was doing.

[formflier]

OK...do you see the paranoia?

Stop trying to fix it...ever.  Listen, engage, support but don't affirm or deny.  Express that you are perplexed and need more understanding.

And no...do not say "I'm perplexed because I'm not getting a package (see the denial)."

So...write out a bit of what that might look like in either instance.  (both are great examples...I used to do the EXACT same thing with my wife...very frustrating)

Best,

FF

[RestlessWanderer]

Yes, the paranoia is glaringly clear.

Do you mean that once I sense things are going off the rails I should immediately communicate that I don’t understand the confusion and cease any attempt to clarify?

i.e. I don’t understand why you think I’m hiding why I went to the post office. (Invitation to rant about anything/everything I didn’t tell her about over the last 9 years and how not sharing=lying)

i.e. I’m not sure why you are confused about my work schedule

[Cat Familiar]

Do you mean that once I sense things are going off the rails I should immediately communicate that I don’t understand the confusion and cease any attempt to clarify?

Yes. Clarifying is Explaining. Remember the lesson on not JADEing? https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0

That was a big one for me, to get over my habit of explaining. I still catch myself doing it now and then.

As you’ve experienced, it doesn’t help.

Looking at it from her point of view, the more effort you put into explaining, the guiltier you look.

Use even less detail in the sample responses you give.

“What do you mean?”  “ I don’t understand.”  “What is it you are asking?”  “What do you want to know?” 

These kind of responses put her on the defensive, not you. Let her spell out her paranoid ideation, if that’s what she wants to do. Don’t help her by appearing defensive, which is what you’re doing by trying to explain.

Formflier has a lot more experience with this sort of thing.
Trust him, he knows what not to do.

[formflier]

i.e. I don’t understand why you think I’m hiding why I went to the post office. (Invitation to rant about anything/everything I didn’t tell her about over the last 9 years and how not sharing=lying)

i.e. I’m not sure why you are confused about my work schedule

Do you see the "poke" that you are using?  I can't imagine why you would do this.?...you you you..


as opposed to

"Oh babe...my schedule sure is confusing.." (does anything else need to be said?)

Best,

FF

[RestlessWanderer]

Do you see the "poke" that you are using?  I can't imagine why you would do this.?...you you you..

This unintentional “poke” has been behind many arguments. I will have to reprogram my reactions.

Let me try again.

“I understand my trip to the post office seemed random, but I have nothing to hide “ and then I disengage despite any further accusations

and...

“I can see that my schedule can be confusing, but I asure you it remains unchanged...every three weeks. I will be sure to let you know if it does change.” Using BIFF here since there was a question, but avoiding JADEing and saying nothing more would be appropriate right?

[RestlessWanderer]

Another question...

What can be done about the damned if you do damned if you don’t situations?

example: tonight my wife is blaming me for not changing the oil in our truck, which she mostly drives. A couple of weeks ago I told her I was going to go buy the supplies to change it myself. She was already upset with me because she had asked me to do it sooner but I hadn’t don’t it yet. So, she told me not to do it, that I had waited too long so she was just going to take it to a shop to get it done. She made it clear that she didn’t want me to do it and if I did she would get even madder. So I left it for her to take care of. Now she’s mad at me because I didn’t do it.
This is another common thing. She makes it clear that she doesn’t want me to do something. Then gets mad when I did as she wished.

[formflier]

Look at your two proposed responses?

Do you deal with "facts"?  Is there an attempt to "set her straight"?

Do you "join with her in her view"?

Clarity:  No you should not  join with her in negative views of you and you also shouldn't refute those either.

Look through her statement and feelings and find places you can come together with her.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Don't participate in catch 22s and no wins.

Note...you con't control if she does them...you only control if you honor those with debates.

"Babe...I trust your judgment about the oil change."  (note...you aren't talking about you and your failures)

Perhaps use humor "If I didn't know better, it appears you are complaining about your mechanic.  Is that your intention?"

Be direct:  "Babe...I'm not able to participate in complaints right now.  I'm available to chat after dinner."

You can play around with all those.

Let's switch gears.

Hey...I'm curious about something.  It appears to me that you care a great deal about providing a good service to her..respecting what she says.  Do I have that right?

Is that reciprocal?

Best,

FF

[RestlessWanderer]

Look at your two proposed responses?

Do you deal with "facts"?  Is there an attempt to "set her straight"?

Do you "join with her in her view"?

Clarity:  No you should not  join with her in negative views of you and you also shouldn't refute those either.

Look through her statement and feelings and find places you can come together with her.

I’m not sure what you’re getting at. Can you clarify?

[RestlessWanderer]

Let's switch gears.

Hey...I'm curious about something.  It appears to me that you care a great deal about providing a good service to her..respecting what she says.  Do I have that right?

Is that reciprocal?

I suppose that’s how I treat everyone. Golden rule.

As far as it being reciprocated, not lately. In general, I imagine the BPD tendency of perceived slights goes in the face of respecting us. Ever since she thinks she caught me cheating or attempting to cheat she has been on the warpath. She says her T is suggesting she treat me as I’m treating her (which I seriously doubt could be true).

[Cat Familiar]

I’m not sure what you’re getting at. Can you clarify?

What FF is getting at is you keep invalidating her. You don’t realize that you are doing that, because you are trying to tell her the truth. But every time you “set her straight” and tell her the facts, you are driving a wedge between you.

I know, this is crazy. You just want to tell her the truth and have her accept it.

Well, it doesn’t work that way. That’s fine with a normal person, but she has a personality disorder. You can’t just tell her the truth and expect she will believe you.

In fact, what you’re doing is undermining your own attempts to be understood.

Think about that.

I know it doesn’t make sense, but her brain doesn’t work the way yours does, or mine does, or FF’s does.

And because of that, we have to bend our way of communicating if we want to be understood.

Every time we try and tell them our version of the truth, we are in effect, telling them that they are out to lunch. That may well be true for us, but consider how that must feel for them.

The best we can do is to consider how they think and feel and not, with our words diminish them, which is how they feel if we tell them our facts, which are in direct opposition to their feelings.

It’s annoying to have to translate how we speak into ways they understand and won’t reject what they hear. But do you want to be understood? If so, it’s worth the trouble. And after a while, it becomes easier to speak BPD. It always will be a foreign language, but we can become proficient where it’s no longer a bother to communicate that way.

[formflier]

RestlessWanderer

Just like you are "getting to know" your wife through the lens of BPD.  We are getting to know you.  I'm still trying to figure out if you do better with short bulletized points or longer...more paragraph like explanations.

What do you think?

I broke down the super important parts of "the lesson" below.

Please stop worrying about "how" for a minute...or longer.  It's critical you get the point we are trying to get you to accept.  Invalidation is BAD

Once you internalize that lesson, we can work through the "how" with examples and all that.


Best,

FF

But every time you “set her straight” and tell her the facts, you are driving a wedge between you.

 
In fact, what you’re doing is undermining your own attempts to be understood.



That may well be true for us, but consider how that must feel for them.

[JaneWrites]

I don't have much to contribute to this thread, but I just wanted to say I've so appreciated going through it. RW, you're not alone in all of this confusion and bumbling the script, so to speak, in trying to find the right formula of words when we're in these situations.

I'm mourning the years I didn't know and just kept arguing. Cat's quote here really nails the struggle:

But every time you “set her straight” and tell her the facts, you are driving a wedge between you.

I know, this is crazy. You just want to tell her the truth and have her accept it.

Well, it doesn’t work that way. That’s fine with a normal person, but she has a personality disorder. You can’t just tell her the truth and expect she will believe you.

[formflier]

Quick story (sadly..I have a ton of them)

When we lived in the Dakota area..towns were far apart and things were sparse.  So...finding a place like Burger King could be unusual (most towns had a local burger joint, but it wasn't a chain).

Anyway...I had been working on a property that was a long way off from our home (hour to hour and a half).  My wife made some mild accusations of me doing the nasty with girls in my harem (I used to have an extensive harem...those were the days) and I mentioned that I stopped and went inside a burger king to eat and relax before continuing home.  (I had probably hung out for 15-20 minutes eating the whopper and reading the local paper).


She was convinced she had me...there is no burger king in that town, therefore I had to be spanking a buxom broad's bottom nice a red...

Later I got her in the car to do something else (I forget how the situation initially calmed) and after running our first errand I drove to the town in question, went through the drive through at Burger King and got her a meal.  

Of course along with the "see..there is a Burger King and you can see inside where they have all the papers available to read".

Now..in my mind...convincing her that I was not banging a buxom broad's bottom by proving there was a burger king would be a good thing.  However...in reality it stoked the fire...it feed the monster...

So...do you see how I "sat her straight"...can you imagine how shaming that must have been?  I'm right...you are wrong.

Now..I'm ok with that.. I was wrong once about something in an argument...it wasn't that bad for me.

Yet for her...it's not just a detail...it somehow proves that she is wrong..she is flawed (not the argument is flawed..but she as a person)

Uggg...

Now I "bubble wrap" that part of her psyche.   There is just too much damage

So..."Hey...wouldn't a better way be?"  versus "You might be wrong about.."

And also...does it matter is a big question I ask myself.  So if I'm convinced there is a better way, step 1 is asking if it matters...just join in with her and spend time together...don't be a process improvement guy all the time.

Best,

FF

[RestlessWanderer]

Cat, you hit the nail on the head, I didn’t realize I was being invalidating. Even though I knew that it was important to avoid, I haven’t fully identified the subtle ways I am still doing it. The way that you described it too Cat was helpful. My wife’s dysregulation often gets triggered by what she decides are lies, whether it be an incorrect statement I make, something I haven’t told her, or something I did lie about (no excuse for this, short sighted decisions to try and avoid getting her mad). So when Cat pointed out that the truth can be invalidating my mind was blown.

FF thank you for your patience and trying to learn how I learn. I do well with both short and sweet or longer descriptions. Where you often lose me is with the open ended questions. They are great at getting me to look at myself and my actions, but sometimes I’m not seeing the lesson. So, I guess sometimes I need a little more clarification on where my actions became the trigger despite my intentions.

Back to the lesson, I never thought of what I was doing as “setting her straight.” I kept thinking that she’s demanding the truth and I’m giving it to her, but she’s not accepting it. I kept thinking how it felt like a witch hunt, no matter what I said she “knew” the truth.

Ok, so to try again with my responses. Regarding the post office run, her truth is my trip to the PO was suspicious because it came out of no where so the obvious explanation was I was hiding something from her since the world is against her. I suppose a response along the lines of “what would make you think that?” could be a decent response.

And now the schedule issue. I think I need to dissect this one a bit more to identify where things went sideways. She asked why I was still self isolating and “understood” that I had explained that I had swapped my schedule around. So I guess since I thought I was helping her clear up the confusion I didn’t think I was being invalidating. Perhaps asking instead “what is it that you want to know honey?”

Does this then just delay invalidation since she will probably ask me a question that she “has the answer” to and any truthful response would be invalidating? Since she thought I was self isolating, but I wasn’t, and she asking why I was, would I be invalidating her if I told her that I wasn’t self isolating? And since she got mixed up on my schedule, telling her what my schedule is could also be invalidating. I guess I could use some examples on how to reply in this situation. I’m not sure if I’m hearing what she may be feeling here so I don’t know which direction to take.

Thanks again Cat and FF. Don’t give up on me, I’m getting this and both of you are being a great help!

[RestlessWanderer]

So..."Hey...wouldn't a better way be?"  versus "You might be wrong about.."

And also...does it matter is a big question I ask myself.  So if I'm convinced there is a better way, step 1 is asking if it matters...just join in with her and spend time together...don't be a process improvement guy all the time.

This is something that I do that is triggering for her. She asks me to do something, but me and my old friend ADHD didn’t pay attention to or forgot all the details of the “how”. We got the “what” done, but since the “how” was part of her identity I ended up invalidating her. Now this one seems to land in two different and very distinct problem areas. By doing it my way I invalidated her. But by doing it her way do I end up reinforcing and “training” the “do what I want and how I want it or else I will throw a tantrum“ side of things.

[formflier]

Generally short is better because it hands over less "potential ammunition".  

Think about it this way, they are on high alert for deception.

So...is giving them 10 things to evaluate better..or 30?  Even if all of them are clean as a whistle.

 With more they could assume that they will not be able to "catch" you...so they despair at that.

Where 10 is more manageable...

The post office one is actually kinda tough...offhand I would say "Oh babe...(place hand on her forearm) I'm here.  Can I reassure you?) or just "Oh babe..I'm here."...then perhaps some distraction and offers of togetherness.  

"hey...I'm going to go brew some tea.  Let's enjoy it together on the porch and talk more."

Then you go to the kitchen and take a deep in and out breath.  A couple of them.  Make the tea and remember...facts don't matter.  And you are the teflon man.

Schedule is easier and a bit of a white lie is ok.

shake you head a bit..."my schedule is tough and with all this virus stuff...(let it trail off)  I have a hard time keeping up with it (even if you don't)"  (now..pivot distract and offer togetherness)

"I'm sure I've isolated when I don't have to...that sucks (trail off).  Say...how about we schedule a picnic on..."

Again..the exact words aren't what I'm trying to teach you.  Imagine the attitude that produces them.  The goal...

If they get hyper focused on details...validate and ask.

"Wow..those details are complicated (even if not to you).  Do you want to get into each of the details?

then wait

"OK babe...this is tough stuff.  If you want to work through this I've got to slow down and focus."

Let me stop here.

How does this come across to you?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

This is something that I do that is triggering for her. She asks me to do something, but me and my old friend ADHD didn’t pay attention to or forgot all the details of the “how”. We got the “what” done, but since the “how” was part of her identity I ended up invalidating her. Now this one seems to land in two different and very distinct problem areas. By doing it my way I invalidated her. But by doing it her way do I end up reinforcing and “training” the “do what I want and how I want it or else I will throw a tantrum“ side of things.

When she asks...hand it back to her.  Babe..I can get that done for you, but sounds like it's better for you to do it in your way. 

DO NOT BECOME HER ROBOT

Listen babe...you've obviously thought this through and I don't mind if you do it in your way.  Or if you want me to do it in my way..that's ok too. And hey..you know me an my memory..(trail off)  Let me know your preference.

Best,

FF

[RestlessWanderer]

Let me give you another scenario from a couple of days ago to try and see if I can apply what you’re teaching me here FF.

My wife was in her room doing her thing. Our son had just come back from visiting my mom. My wife asked if he had spent any time outside yet. He hadn’t, so I said we’d go outside and do something. A while later we came back in to get some more toys to take back outside. Somewhere in that time span that we were outside my wife had been calling for us, “screaming at the top of her lungs” apparently. We never heard a thing. This happens frequently. She will be in her room and will be talking to us or calling out for us, but due to ambient noise and other factors like her being in the closet or bathroom or facing away from us, her voice won’t make it to us. So that day she was bothered because we had “ignored her”. She then began to rant about it. My son and I were perplexed and just went back outside to continue playing. But since I opted to not stand and listen to the many ways I am the cause of the end of the world, she then got even more upset, came outside and pointed out how I was giving my son a bad example and therefore he was inevitably going to become an alcoholic drug addict. She called him inside, and locked me out. I waited about 25 minutes then went to the front door with the toys and, she was standing there with the door open, I went back inside without incident.

I did make attempts to “set her straight“ regarding the facts of not hearing her and therefore not ignoring her. I told her I wasn’t going to just stand there and listen to her berate me so I walked away. I can see how the latter was invalidating, but I was enforcing my boundaries. I didn’t see it then but can see now that the former was also invalidating.

So how could this have gone better?

She wanted me to listen to her tell me how I invalidated her. But since she was crossing my boundary I stepped out. Which further invalidated her. I suppose I could have omitted my invalidation of her perception of us ignoring her. And since she was ranting I don’t know that I could have squeezed in something validating.

FF feel free to redirect to the previous scenarios if we aren’t ready to move on yet.

[RestlessWanderer]

FF I’ve been reading through your last two lessons. One thing comes to mind, and it may just be means how I’ve grown so gun shy with her. That being said, do you anticipate those responses being effective if it seems like she is already leaning towards the anger side of the spectrum? I start to play out how I think things might go and it seems to me like she has already made up her mind that she’s going to be angry about these things. So in my mind these deflections and redirections may prove to stoke the fire in other ways.

What are your thoughts on this?

[Cat Familiar]

FF, I had to put on my nitpicky hat when I saw, “Hey...wouldn’t a better way be?”

Invalidating is insidious, and all together way too easy for those of us who are Thinkers, rather than Feelers.

It only makes sense that we are much better at logic, because that’s the focus of our world. So it’s likely that our ideas are “better” than ideas coming from someone who filters information through their emotions, rather than utilizing their intellectual abilities.

How about—“Hey...what do you think of this?”

or “Here’s another way to look at it.”

[Cat Familiar]

If you can get a word in edgewise, you could say, “Oh, that must feel terrible, thinking that we’re ignoring you.” Ideally, if she’s not already too upset, perhaps you could give her a hug. “You’re really important to me and I definitely want to hear what you have to say.”

“Maybe we need something like a bullhorn, a dinner triangle, or an air horn so when we are outside, we can hear you over the ambient noise.”

That you went back outside and didn’t address her emotions, was another form of invalidation.

Yes, it’s really hard and as you try and fix one problem, such as strengthening your boundaries about not sticking around to hear abusive language, you can create another problem.

It’s fixable, but it will take time and effort. Don’t worry.

[RestlessWanderer]

I suppose if I was able to cut in and validate her we may not have gotten to the point where my boundary was crossed.

[RestlessWanderer]

Any tips for shielding my emotions as she’s throwing hurtful accusations so I can avoid focusing in on that and thus keeping myself from wanting to just walk away?
Hindsight makes it easy to break down the situation, but in the moment I need to learn to deflect the missiles and see what is urging her to pull the trigger.

[formflier]

FF, I had to put on my nitpicky hat when I saw, “Hey...wouldn’t a better way be?”

Cold busted...

Actually...I've been out mowing on the tractor for a while...and I often mull over things I've posted. This was one of them.

I've been deliberate about using the word "curious" with my wife and my kids for a while now.

After all...if you are curious, it's unlikely you are also judgmental at the same time.

Anyway..."I'm curious about how x would work..what do you think?"

Best,

FF