any advice on how to handle couples therapy?

[FirstSteps]

We have our second session on Monday.  The first was during a "good" phase so focused on the need for communication skills and so on.

But I am worried that it will turn into a session aimed at me for not "sharing" and communicating.  She is currently more or less giving me the silent treatment but it's of course my fault.

Does anyone have any advice or experience on how to navigate therapy with a BDP?

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RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

"Very carefully..." is my advice!       

Keep it about you and what you "understand"...vice what she said.

Quick example.

(hint..this is the "No" example") My wife was loud and obnoxious while berating me for breathing wrong the other night...please make her stop."

"I had a hard time understanding something very important to my wife a few nights ago.  How should I handle it when my attempts to understand appear to be upsetting."

Stick with stuff like the 2nd example, much less likely your pwBPD will get defensive.


So...why are you guys in counseling? 

Either one of you doing or have done individual counseling?

We certainly can help here...but will need lots more information.

Best,

FF

[FirstSteps]

Thanks!  This is super useful.

We are both in counseling - though my wife has fired or been fired by 5.  She's still in a ton of trauma/victim groups.  My therapist is actually the one who hinted to me that my wife could be uPBD, which was the revelation of revelations (though it took my 4 months to accept it and actually look it up!).

My wife has self-diagnosed as having C-PTSD with abandonment issues, which makes this all very complicated.  She talks the therapy game with a lot of skill and was a social worker herself before she stopped working.   

In our first session, it all got normalized.  We are just a couple with communication issues.  When she splits, we are "having fights" with both of us equally responsible.  Last night, she told me she was leaving me and spent hours sobbing with the door to her room open.  Today my daughter is having a horrible day and my wife says it's because of "our fight".

The new thing too is that any boundary of mine is perceived as "life threatening" and "not respectful of my abused inner child".  These new boundaries of mine are extremely uncertain and small, as I'm working hard to get the smallest bit of my own self back.   

Anyway, my fear is that I will get totally lost in her extremely intelligent and sophisticated equalizing talk.

At the same time, she does seem to have a level of self-awareness that a lot of uPBD seem to lack.  She will talk so sensibly about her issues, apologize, acknowledge that maybe we're not healthy together, that she can't emotionally regulate, that she has anger issues, that we need to keep the kids safer emotionally.  Then it just subtly shifts to blame.   

I honestly don't know if she has BPD or actually it is C-PTSD with BPD traits.  It doesn't matter to me, as I just want her to get care.   

And I want to both survive therapy and maybe even get something out of it!

[hands down]

In my experience, it’s a challenge to get the “real” relationship on the room with couples therapy. I’m a huge advocate of it, but that involves both parties being aware enough to bring the ACTUAL energy; circumstances and scenarios into the therapist together - without flooding. Which is why, imo, either a clusterB will often times remain invisible or get fired by a therapist.

It’s challenging but encouraging that there’s at least desire

[FirstSteps]

Thanks.  It's good to even think it's possible.  She also reconciles with me 1-2 days before a session (we've done this before) so we're "on the same page."  Which shuts me down, of course.  But I'm hoping the work she's doing will pay off and allow us to get to the real stuff.  And my work too, of course.

[formflier]

Good responses, I think I get a clearer picture.

I understand your worry about "getting lost" in her view, yet I'm struck that you seem to (correct me if I'm wrong) accept the idea that "how lost" you are is dependent in some manner on what she says/does.  Is that close?

Keep up the good work on coming back here and posting!

Best,

FF

[TheBatHammer]

Only one suggestion. Don't volunteer anything unless directly asked. Let the therapist guide the therapy.

[Seeleygirl]

Let the therapist guide the therapy.

Hi all. Just wondering - does couples therapy generally work for BPD? I have a therapist who said she would be willing to do couples sessions if we want, but I just can’t imagine how it would work. My pwBPD knows exactly how to be charming when we’re in front of others and he would almost definitely lie or project, saying things that he knows I would say before I could say them (like “I feel like I can’t say anything without being attacked” or that I keep pressuring him to work on his DBT - which I absolutely don’t but of course I happened to mention it once in a helpful way and now it’s “I won’t leave him alone about it” ). I’m just afraid he would either deny any of the things that are issues or, once the session is over, he would get super angry at me for saying whatever I said in front of the therapist. Just wondering if anyone has ever had good couples therapy with a BPDer? Thanks!

[hands down]

Hi all. Just wondering - does couples therapy generally work for BPD? I have a therapist who said she would be willing to do couples sessions if we want, but I just can’t imagine how it would work. My pwBPD knows exactly how to be charming when we’re in front of others and he would almost definitely lie or project, saying things that he knows I would say before I could say them (like “I feel like I can’t say anything without being attacked” or that I keep pressuring him to work on his DBT - which I absolutely don’t but of course I happened to mention it once in a helpful way and now it’s “I won’t leave him alone about it” ). I’m just afraid he would either deny any of the things that are issues or, once the session is over, he would get super angry at me for saying whatever I said in front of the therapist. Just wondering if anyone has ever had good couples therapy with a BPDer? Thanks!

If by “generally” you mean “statistically” I’d have to say no. Most statistics would be slanted against the success of a BPD relationship entirely. This anecdotal but I’m fairly confident in my assertion.

I’d go so far to say that, from what I’ve seen and studied….  Tue ONLY clear marker for success is a pwBPD actively embracing their behaviors, tendencies and  wiring that lead toward the clusterB and BPD symptoms and traits (I tread lightly around diagnosis as it’s a waning element of modern psychology outside of how to bill for services)

That said. Recognizing, embracing and buying in to the work to get better, IMO is the ONLY marker of success…. (And if that is couples therapy then it can be beneficial.  If anyone goes to a therapist because they “should” likely won’t find value, especially a person with cluster B traits.

Does your spouse WANT to go, for the betterment of your relationship, to learn how to communicate and to become more of a support to you and vice versa?  That may be the closest thing to your answer.

[Seeleygirl]

Recognizing, embracing and buying in to the work to get better, IMO is the ONLY marker of success…. (And if that is couples therapy then it can be beneficial. 

OK yes that’s what I was thinking too. No he’s not there yet. He believes that he has BPD in that he agrees that he suffers from almost all the listed criteria, but he is reluctant to read anything about it or learn anything more about the behaviours he exhibits that are stemming from it. He knows that DBT is the way to go and that he can have success if he follows that route, but he hasn’t made any effort yet to try and go down that road. He said he’d be open to talking to a therapist “when he’s ready”, but like the DBT, doesn’t appear to be ready for that any time soon. He’s kind of in the denial stage I guess. The only behaviour he is willing to chalk up to the BPD is his angry outbursts and he continually rationalizes them as being justified or exaggerated or sometimes he just insists they never happened. It’s a slow road but he insists he’s “drinking the kook-aid” (not sure if that’s a good statement or not)

[hands down]

OK yes that’s what I was thinking too. No he’s not there yet. He believes that he has BPD in that he agrees that he suffers from almost all the listed criteria, but he is reluctant to read anything about it or learn anything more about the behaviours he exhibits that are stemming from it. He knows that DBT is the way to go and that he can have success if he follows that route, but he hasn’t made any effort yet to try and go down that road. He said he’d be open to talking to a therapist “when he’s ready”, but like the DBT, doesn’t appear to be ready for that any time soon. He’s kind of in the denial stage I guess. The only behavior he is willing to chalk up to the BPD is his angry outbursts and he continually rationalizes them as being justified or exaggerated or sometimes he just insists they never happened. It’s a slow road but he insists he’s “drinking the kook-aid” (not sure if that’s a good statement or not)

Then... you likely have the answer that... you probably already knew in your gut - that you had..

Much love and care... The one thing I have experienced through this disease is that your gut can speak loud...BUT, try not to process your gut feeling with your own cognition and processing theories. Your gut likely harmonizes with their feelings, which is good... BUT remember, someone wBPD will NOT process the same emotions the same way as someone without it...  This is not easy, and I believe the largest trap we can all fall in... "I know they feel this way - so they should do this thing"..

Its actually easier to just delete that ;-)  - and ONLY go by the evidence in front of us - the only predictable thing about deep PD type hurt, is... its unpredictable.  Go by the present and the facts

Take care !

[Seeleygirl]

Then... you likely have the answer that... you probably already knew in your gut - that you had..

Yes you’re right - thank you   

[formflier]

 now it’s “I won’t leave him alone about it” ).

There are times to be careful..and there are times to "own things...loud and proud".

So...you wan him to do this therapy..his DBT and he makes the quoted comment.

I think you should own it.  "No I won't...your health is too important, as is mine."

Then let the counselor explain to you and he what you should do when a partner is ignoring what they have agreed to do in therapy.  

Said another way, they are going to say whacky things...they just are.  Know this...prepare and use it to benefit your relationship, when it comes up.

Best,

FF

[Seeleygirl]

I think you should own it.  "No I won't...your health is too important, as is mine."

Then let the counselor explain to you and he what you should do when a partner is ignoring what they have agreed to do in therapy.  

OK thanks that’s a good tip! We’re not in therapy yet (I was but he never was) and I don’t think it’s going to happen any time soon. He’s just not in a place yet where he feels he’s wrong about anything. He agrees he has all the criteria but the anger issues he writes off as justified due to other people’s actions and the rest of it he doesn’t believe actually happens, or it doesn’t happen the way I think it does, and he doesn’t want any of it to be because of the BPD. It doesn’t make any sense to me but that’s where he’s at right now. I guess it’s baby steps for now and I’ll hang on as long as I can. Thanks!

[FirstSteps]

I understand your worry about "getting lost" in her view, yet I'm struck that you seem to (correct me if I'm wrong) accept the idea that "how lost" you are is dependent in some manner on what she says/does.  Is that close?

This is really insightful and I've spent the weekend thinking about it.  Yes, I am assuming that she holds the power to shape the session, and I'm absolutely avoiding doing things in therapy that will "betray" her.  Ugh. 

Our session was cancelled because we've got covid in the family so I've got two weeks to sort this out.  My wife has absolutely shown incredible insight and progress this past week, which makes me hopeful.  I'm wary of getting too sucked in, but it feels like she's actually addressing her issues and our issues in a thoughtful way.  So fingers crossed we're at the start of a better road.

[PearlsBefore]

The only marriage therapy that offered any success for us was an elderly married couple who offered couples therapy as a personal mission through a religious outreach program (not of our faith); they'd been married thirty years themselves, so had a good grounding to be able to say "this is normal for marriage" instead of "omg that's not how it would happen in my Liberal Arts program!", etc. All four of us would sit together for an hour, then the last five minutes I'd go chat with the husband while she chatted to the wife - we both agreed it was far more healthful than any other therapy she'd sought out.

[formflier]

  Yes, I am assuming that she holds the power to shape the session

As do you!

Listen..BPDish stuff is like taking a blender...putting it on high and inserting your brain.  So...be kind to yourself.

Just as important, be deliberate in your thinking and asking yourself..."Am I conflating important issues" or perhaps "having priorities out of line".

So I'm not saying that you should be "red and free" in therapy (I'm retired Navy guy...so bonus points if you can explain "red and free") with what you say.

But...just as importantly.  If things matter greatly to you, yet you won't bring them up in therapy because of what she might say or do...that's really more of a values problem or an honesty problem (I'm not the biggest fan of "honesty" as a word there..but can't think of a better one right now)

Example:  If you go to therapy because you want to communicate with your pwBPD (in a healthy way) that you are uncomfortable with her selling her boogers online...yet you are terrified because you know she will exclaim...I don't have boogers...you are the booger, how dare you betray my trust..you aren't the man I thought you were...you must not love me (you get the picture).

Well...that's an "honesty problem" if you avoid that and stick to "safe topics" like whether the lid should be left up or down.

You are important.  Your desires and values are important.

Don't give away your power to shape the session, just as much as you shouldn't expect her to give away all her power.


Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

From my experience I’d say don’t go in with a laundry list of difficult behaviors. I had experienced such a shutdown in communication with my husband prior to couples counseling that being in a safe place, I wanted to share everything all at once. He felt ganged up on and like our sessions only served the function of me *bashing him*.

Let her talk and given enough rope, she will indeed hang herself, given the counselor is skillful.

[FirstSteps]

Thanks to both.  I think it's both smart for me to not go in with a laundry list of problems and start babbling about my emotional unsafety.  But I do really have to sort out what is important to me.  Right now, I just don't know. 

It's almost harder now that she is seemingly making real progress.  Is this just another illusion?  Or if it is real progress, it becomes so, so hard for me to make things uncomfortable on my end.   This is almost my new focus - how I act when things are good.

[AnaisNin]

So, if this is just general couples therapy, I would try to tell the therapist the problem is emotional regulation, and to work on emotion focused therapy. This way, when your spouse gets very disregulated, the therapist will notice and encourage to state how they are feeling and why. If they start to rage or ramble, the therapist can bring it back to...i need to hear how you are feeling and why...you may have some success with that. I think open talking therapy is dangerous for BPD and counterproductive.

[GaGrl]

I agree -- if you present the problem as how quickly emotional discussions escalate to a level that is unmanageable, the T can watch for that dynamic.

[FirstSteps]

That's a great idea, thanks!  I can actually see how I can articulate that too without causing WWIII from the start. 

She actually admitted yesterday that she's addicted to chaos - or more specifically to the endorphin rush that comes after we "reconnect".  It made me realize yet again how central I am to the whole cycle and that I've been codependently feeding into the chaos for so long.

[kells76]

So, if this is just general couples therapy, I would try to tell the therapist the problem is emotional regulation, and to work on emotion focused therapy.

if you present the problem as how quickly emotional discussions escalate to a level that is unmanageable, the T can watch for that dynamic.

Great advice to narrow down the focus. That in and of itself is having some boundaries around the sessions, which models the idea that boundaries don't have to be "announced and explained"... they can just "be".

I can actually see how I can articulate that too without causing WWIII from the start.

Glad you have some ideas for bringing that up! One way that I thought of when I read the suggestions was: "I'm concerned that emotional dysregulation is coming between us". That keeps it away from blame (YOU'RE the dysregulated one) so that the focus can stay on problem-solving, yet it isn't "covering up" what is going on or refraining from stating the problem out of fear of another's response.

Would love to hear your idea for bringing it up!

[FirstSteps]

This was really good advice - to narrow it down and then make it non-personal.

Unfortunately, it was a mess anyway.  She doesn't manipulate directly or tell outright lies about me.  She is too earnest and she has done real work.  It got dysregulated in a more subtle way.  She ended up crying for most of the session and telling me and the therapist that she felt judged.

Then I really got it in the car after.  I betrayed her.  I backstabbed her.  I'm a perpetual trigger.  I'm controlling her subtly with my coldness.  No amount of validation or mirroring has any effect.

The thing is - so after an hour, she calms down into a place where I can reach her.  And then she's suddenly present, and I feel all warm and fuzzy because I'm vulnerable too.

Except I said in therapy that this is EXACTLY what I couldn't do - only resolve issues after hours of circular, soul-exhausting fighting.  I was expressing this in the car to some degree - I didn't fall into her arms and start laughing. But I still felt that and also went along with it it because I'm not yet willing to say we're done.  So she says we're done 20 ways in the car but then at the end it's all about how she is the one who is really committed and would never leave.

I realize I need to figure this out myself.  Do I want to stay?  Can I stay?  I have at least accepted that she will not leave.

And I feel so trapped.  But also warm and fuzzy and relieved.  I have no idea where this will all go from here, but I definitely kept my cool in therapy because of this advice.  Also, my wife was so obviously dysregulated that the therapist did not blame me for anything.  

[formflier]

So...it would be interesting to try driving separately.  Let her calm down by herself and then when you get together after an hour...maybe she will be better.

The key is to not "take it" for an hour..so she calms.  Figure out a way to be left out of that.

Best,

FF

[FirstSteps]

Thanks.  That's a good idea.  She doesn't drive so I'm stuck in the car but I do think I could gently just say I don't want to get into it until later.  That's obviously flipping a coin but I'm getting better at that, and she is more or less accepting it.