Responding to a comment from another thread

[Dad50]

In another thread, I was struck by a comment from Ventak that made sense, and I have used. I didn't want to hijack that persons thread and post, so I made this new one. Here was the comment and my question:

What I tell my family...  If my BPDw had cancer and I told people that I love her but that seeing her suffer with cancer was just too hard on me so I was leaving her, everyone would consider me an a**hole.  But since she has a mental health issue, they are instead telling me to run for the hills as fast as I can.  To me there is no difference.  I certainly respect others who choose to leave, but it doesn't fit into my personal moral code.  At the end of the day we all need to be able to live with ourselves.

You are making a brave choice.  Be proud of yourself, I am.

I finally broke down and talked with my children (14 and 16) about my pwBPD, and used this exact same analogy. Part of me thought I was shielding my kids from most of the chaos and drama, but they are aware kids and I was being naive to think I could shield them entirely. I was torn about talking to them about it because it seemed like a grown up issue, but it affected them.

Anyway, I used the cancer analogy as well, and that my partner was sick. What my one child said is, "Dad, cancer doesn't make you hurt other people. "

As a 47 year old man I can reconcile that it is a disease and that I can separate the person from the disease. How do I ask that of my kids?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[tvda]

Ah, the old "if it were any other disease I would be an asshole for not sticking by him/her" fallacy...

I had a histrionic girlfriend when I was 30 (for those not in the know, that's sort of a kind of super-flamboyant chaotic and dramatic borderline variant). Being the good codependent and rescuer, I talked to my therapist about it...

I said "If a truck would have hit her and cut off her legs, putting her in a wheelchair, I would be a supreme A-hole to leave her because this made my life too hard. It's just the same thing for me, only it's not her legs that are impaired, it's her mind."

My therapist quickly set me straight, and said "If your girlfriend would have lost her legs, you would still be able to have a perfectly balanced relationship. Yes, you would be the big 'physical' caretaker. But she would be able to keep things balanced by being grateful, being there for your mental and emotional wellbeing, and fostering your mutual connection. But a personality disorder is a whole other beast. It makes it impossible for her (and you) to have a balanced, equal and deep relationship based on trust, intimacy and mutual respect."

I'm still grateful to this day to her for making this distinction, and relieving me of the misplaced guilt I felt. Something to think about.

[jmbl]

Thank you for this comment! I have diabetes, and my partner and I always make comparisons to how we are treated differently. If he did not put up with my challenges, he would be considered an a**hole. I'm told to leave him and it's so frustrating for people to not understand the double standard here. I have finally found a T who understands this and supports our relationship, what a relief!

[khibomsis]

We have to be careful to use the right analogy. I have felt the same way, but my then partner accepted the diagnosis, stuck with therapy and DBT and is doing the really hard work that is needed. The more I set boundaries the more she respects it. In a way, the problem is me, that it is taking time to work through my co-dependency and that is why there are not more boundaries. But we are getting there. It is tough but I guess what I am saying is it takes a lot of work on both sides.
The prognosis if a pwBPD refuses therapy or is in treatment to "save the relationship" rather for their health's sake is not good. I cannot think of a single case on these boards where the person has come right without therapy. And even with therapy the chances are maybe two thirds, because not everybody wants to put in the work. I have a friend of thirty years who has fired six therapists. Thank heavens I was never her lover, still there have been a good few years when I have just needed  a break from her. Untreated BPD is a lot of repetitive cycling and one does wear out.
The analogy would be if a person has cancer and refuses treatment or does not adhere to prescriptions. Would it be fair on you, the caretaker? And could we judge you if you chose lay that burden down? Not trying to discourage anybody. Just that these things weigh on my mind as I try to distinguish between compassion and co-dependency.

[babyducks]

Anyway, I used the cancer analogy as well, and that my partner was sick. What my one child said is, "Dad, cancer doesn't make you hurt other people. "

the cancer / mental illness analogy is, to me, a false equivalency.    just because two things share some characteristics does not mean they are the same.    your kid found one of the fallacies.     to me cancer/bpd exaggerates the similarity ... "its all an illness"   and ignores the differences ... violence is not usually involved in cancer where it is an important consideration in mental illness.

As a 47 year old man I can reconcile that it is a disease and that I can separate the person from the disease. How do I ask that of my kids?

I think the question is how do you protect your children and make them resilient in the face of verbal and emotional abuse.    as you noted,    kids pick up more than we give them credit for but struggle to process it.   

[babyducks]

We have to be careful to use the right analogy.

a dog and a cat are both animals.   both mammals.   both have fur and four paws.    therefore I can treat them the same and expect the same response from them.   that's another false equivalency.   it puts too much emphasis on the similarities and not enough on the differences.

[Breakingpoint13]

I remember watching something where they said. Not quoted;

Boderlines are chrildren in adult bodies, when a child doesnt get their own way they throw their toys out of their pram and paddy. When a child throws a tantrum imagine they run into traffic, us as the adults, the care giver, the co dependant, we run straight into the traffic after them to stop them from getting hurt, not looking at the danger that is coming straight towards us first and will get hit protecting them. Yes we want to protect them, but we cant. They are adults and if they want to run into traffic then thats on them. We are no good to anybody if we dont protect ourseleves first, or even worse dead from taking the hit from the on coming wagon!

[pursuingJoy]

Analogies aren't usually a one-for-one perfect fit. Maybe the bottom line is that there isn't a one size fits all response to the stay or go questions that we find ourselves asking.

Dad50, your kid made a great point. As an adult, you will be able to tolerate and navigate behaviors that could hurt them. I don't believe in protecting kids from every harm. I believe in empowering them to navigate grief and difficulty, however it is important for them to believe that you're supportive, for you to model healthy relationships and communication, and that to a large degree, for their emotional wellbeing, that they're growing up in an environment that feels safe. is it enough to model healthy responses to conflict and empower them to speak up and set their own boundaries?

My kids (16, 17, and 20) used to love their stepdad. They hate him now and are demanding that I divorce him. It's led to painful conversations with some truth and a lot of catastrophizing. In years past, I was always a safe place (read: enabler/rescuer) for them if he hurt their feelings. Today, their anger towards him has transferred to me and they're living with their dad full time. I don't regret my choice to stay married. I will weather this storm and survive. My kids are resilient and as much as my heart aches, something in me believes this is a season. I wanted to share my experience as future anger towards you may be another dynamic to prepare for.

How do you take this on without triangulating? I respect that you're tackling this, it's tough. I wish I'd done a better job.

[exasperatedwifey]

I agree with others on here who are saying that cancer and BPD aren’t comparable. As a parent, we are responsible for the physical and mental health of our children. It’s such a difficult position to be in. We love our children and we love our pwBPD. I have always felt like the buffer between the two. I try to lessen the blows of the bad times.

When is enough, enough? For right now, I truly don’t know. Are my children being irreparably harmed? I sure hope not. We have such open dialogue about our family situation (the children and I). I’m hoping that therapy, us applying what we learn about dealing with BPD behaviors and time will work everything out.

[Cat Familiar]

The difference that I think needs clarification is that there is agency and personal responsibility with BPD. Many have noticed how a pwBPD can be in the midst of behaving badly with a family member, then act quite differently when an unexpected visitor arrives or the telephone rings.

There is some level of choosing to behave a particular way.

I’m not fond of the comparison to a potentially deadly medical diagnosis.

[Ventak]

Dad50, I'm glad that the statement resonated with you, though I think some context is necessary.

In my case, I have also put some fairly hard boundaries in place for reconciliation, including therapy, DBT, and couples therapy.  In the case of the person I was responding to.. she is in therapy now and her pwBPD is starting therapy soon iirc.  She is in the beginning of her journey, much like I am.. learning not to JADE, learning to SET, etc.  We have both made the decision that change is possible and worth the effort.  I respect that others make different decisions, or have tried change (often multiple times) and only achieved negative results.

For my family, they just see that I was hurt by my BPDw, that our children are suffering, and that I should not give her another chance.  I respect their perspective as well.  Having told them this analogy has helped them better understand why I am willing to give her a chance to prove she can grow, I can grow myself, and that I am willing to take that journey together until we find it is or is not going to work.  Since my family knows about the boundaries I have set, and are holding me accountable    I also added that if she had cancer, but refused chemo and was lashing out every day that would be a different story.

To answer your question, I would say that people with cancer do in fact hurt other people.  I know that if my wife had cancer I would be hurting every day... not by her words, but by the loss and grief I would feel.  It is also quite common for people to go through the grief phase when they learn they have a terminal illness, one stage is anger -- and they will lash out as angry people do.  The main difference to me is that with cancer death is soon and people understand the hurt will be going away soon so accept it, where BPD can go on for decades, and if untreated will almost certainly go on for decades...