Delusions of Being Recorded?

[HurtAndTired]

Hi all,

As I have been in the process of placing and enforcing strong and healthy boundaries in my marriage, things have been improving vis-a-vis the level of chaos and insanity in my home, however, there have been some unexpected side effects and I am wondering if anyone else has had this happen to them.

Part of my plan is that I am no longer JADEing and I will not take part in circular arguments or tolerate verbal abuse. As a consequence of this, I am much calmer when my uBPDw tries to engage me in a verbal conflict. From where I stand, she doesn't know what to make of this. I am not responding "as I should" in the expected way, which seems to make her very uncomfortable.

For example, if she is dysregulated and starts to be mean and name call and/or starts making false accusations or pointed questions that are veiled accusations I try to respond to the emotion behind the chaos and validate what I can via the SET method. This has been productive but leaves her confused as to why I am not engaging. Part of her BPD symptoms manifest as paranoia (everyone is bad and is out to get her) so this naturally peaks her suspicions that I have ulterior motives in my calm responses.

Some more background. A while back I disarmed her emotionally abusive, and frequent, divorce threats by calling her bluff. I told her that while I do not want a divorce if she wants to proceed with one she will have to hire an attorney and file papers against me. I then disabused her of the notion that I would be a passive victim, roll over, and let her take everything. She has said, many times, that I would end up paying her alimony (she would "take me to the cleaners.") I told her that alimony is not a thing in our state (this is true. she works full-time and here alimony is never awarded unless it can be shown that the wife is completely financially dependent on the husband or that she is incapable of working.) I also told her that I would hire an attorney and would fight tooth and nail for full custody of our S2. I told her in no uncertain terms that her documented history of making suicide threats and having the police called to our house when she was threatening me physically would not be a good look on her in court and that "things won't turn out the way you expect them to."

I said all of this in a calm, matter-of-fact tone of voice. My intent was to disarm the constant threats, not to be cruel. Everything that I said to her was 100% true and I felt that she needed to know that what she was threatening me with would have serious and life-changing repercussions for her as well and that she needed to consider those before doing anything. It worked and I have not had one divorce threat since (it's been several months and normally I would get one every few weeks.) However, she now seems to be paranoid that I am collecting evidence for use in court should it ever come to that.

Now when she is dysregulated and is behaving in unacceptable ways (yelling, name-calling, swearing, making wild accusations, etc.) and I am calmly responding to her and using SET she frequently asks me if I am recording the conversation. She even once accused me of having cameras in the house to record her. Although I don't know exactly what to make of this, I think that it could be seen as a positive development if looked at in the right way. It means that a) she is self-aware in the moment that her behavior is unacceptable and would be seen as such by a neutral third party who was listening to or watching a recording and b) she has a healthy fear of crossing my boundaries (even while she is attempting to cross them.)

I do not want to nor do I enjoy her feeling distressed. However, I believe that most pwBPD do a pretty good job at self-regulation in most situations outside of their most intimate relationships because they fear the repercussions of insane behavior in public. My wife would never dream of screaming at or physically attacking her boss at work (even though she is frequently furious with her) because she fears being fired and/or arrested. This fear can and should be present in intimate relationships as well. As her FP, for too long I have allowed her to abuse me with no repercussion whatsoever. The abuse got worse over time as she crossed boundary after boundary with me doing very little or nothing to stop her. It is largely my fault that she lost her healthy fear of abusing me because I had weak boundaries. Now that I am changing and enforcing strong, healthy boundaries I think that this healthy fear of abusing me is returning and is manifesting as paranoia about being recorded.

Has anyone else had a similar experience after finding your backbone and ending the abuse?

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[kells76]

Hi HurtAndTired;

Good to hear, especially for your son's sake, that there is less chaos in your home.

Interesting question about paranoia coming up now. Am I reading correctly that she has had paranoid-type responses in the past as well?:

Part of her BPD symptoms manifest as paranoia (everyone is bad and is out to get her) so this naturally peaks her suspicions that I have ulterior motives in my calm responses.

Couple of "gut feeling" thoughts from me that aren't directly about the paranoia, but I think I can get them to circle back to that topic.

*There are two big levers we have in having a more effective, healthier relationship with a spouse with BPD.

One is boundaries (which you've been working on). Boundaries are for our protection only. Boundaries aren't to get the pwBPD to change, to make them feel something, to get them to "see the light", to teach them a lesson, or, importantly, to bring two partners closer together in a relationship. It's true that pwBPD may change how they respond to us, after we decide on boundaries for ourselves -- you may be seeing that with your W -- but that's a "might happen", not "will happen". Boundaries are so we're protected from and not around behavior that we've decided for ourselves we don't want to experience.

The other one is validation, which is for healthy connection between two people. I've learned a lot about true validation by reading and learning here. True validation isn't: placating, agreeing with falsehoods, making them feel better, saying "I understand that you feel XYZ", being positive, trying not to trigger them, letting them get away with something, mind-reading, rolling over, etc. It is: finding the feelings behind their words, putting yourself in their shoes, thinking to yourself: whatever the purported reason for that feeling, how would it feel to feel that? And then genuinely sharing that with them: "Wow, it would feel devastating/overwhelming/bad/frustrating to feel XYZ".

*Next thought:

I believe that most pwBPD do a pretty good job at self-regulation in most situations outside of their most intimate relationships because they fear the repercussions of insane behavior in public. My wife would never dream of screaming at or physically attacking her boss at work (even though she is frequently furious with her) because she fears being fired and/or arrested. This fear can and should be present in intimate relationships as well. As her FP, for too long I have allowed her to abuse me with no repercussion whatsoever. The abuse got worse over time as she crossed boundary after boundary with me doing very little or nothing to stop her. It is largely my fault that she lost her healthy fear of abusing me because I had weak boundaries. Now that I am changing and enforcing strong, healthy boundaries I think that this healthy fear of abusing me is returning and is manifesting as paranoia about being recorded.

Not sure if that is exactly it. I think you're right to bring up that pwBPD behave differently in intimate relationships vs work relationships, for example, though I think that's less about a fear of consequences in public versus the fact that BPD is an emotional disorder that shows up more in closer relationships. She doesn't have the same emotional connection to her boss/coworkers that she has with you, and that isn't because of the public/private distinction.

Assuming that she fears consequences of behaving badly in public is using our brain structure to try to impute meaning to her behavior, and her brain likely doesn't function the same way. "I'd sure be scared of getting arrested/getting shamed/everyone looking at me/what the neighbors would think" is something you and I might think because we don't have a PD and also have "generally normal" executive functioning. I'd caution away from concluding that your W has similar motivations or thought processes. She probably lives emotionally "in the moment" and so if she's not behaving wildly in public or with coworkers, it's because she isn't having deep emotional needs or triggered fears with them -- not because she has the insight to stop and think ahead about "how it would look". Anyway -- kind of a side point, but hopefully helpful to putting together a bigger picture of your W.

*Another thought:

It sounds like you're working the boundaries side of things pretty hard. It is hard work!

And it sounds like you're committed to staying in the marriage.

This stood out to me:

I do not want to nor do I enjoy her feeling distressed.

OK, now we're back to your original question about paranoia 

There's a better, more stable (less chaotic) foundation in your marriage -- but where do you go from here? Are you two destined to have this kind of rigid "she's afraid to cross my boundaries" relationship if you're going to stay together?

I think things can get better than how they are -- if you're willing to put in the work to validation that you've shown you're willing to put into boundaries. You've shown you want to learn new ways of relating to her -- maybe it's time for the next step forward?

So, the paranoia. I'm really thinking that it would be interesting -- and a positive move for your relationship -- if next time she says something like "I'm afraid you're recording what I say", you are able to genuinely validate her feeling: "That would suck to feel like you're being recorded". Or, "I'd feel scared, too, if I felt like someone was recording me and I didn't know".

I'm not saying that the "facts" she's constructed to explain her inner feelings are correct. You wouldn't have to lie and say "I sure am recording you!". And, now that you're aware of JADE-ing, I'm sure you already know not to argue her out of her position by "proving" stuff to her.

I'm thinking more of how the two of you can build (or rebuild) healthy connection.

For so long, there was unhealthy connection between you two -- engagement probably looked like verbal abuse, arguments, conflict, etc. That's ended, so let's take steps towards healthy connection, and validation is the approach for that.

Her feelings are real and really happening (just like anyone's feelings, mine and yours, are real and we notice them happening). The challenge with BPD is that she will struggle to identify her feelings as happening inside of her -- so she looks externally to find a reason or meaning for her feeling that way. That's how we get to the paranoid "are you recording me" place.

From what you've described, I think leaning hard on true validation may have a positive impact on this development. It isn't a magic wand -- it isn't like "boom, use it once and she'll never feel paranoid again". It's more of an approach that creates an atmosphere of "felt safety" in your relationship, where instead of her desperately trying to meet her emotional needs through escalation, she can have a moment of feeling understood and connected when you validate -- which decreases her need to be seen by getting big, arguing, abusing, etc.

Moreover, the way you interact with your W is modeling to your son how he should behave in relationships. Boundaries are so important and such a gift for your son to see you do. And they're one part of two -- remember to model validation to him, too.

What do you think?

[SaltyDawg]

Has anyone else had a similar experience after finding your backbone and ending the abuse?

Hurt and Tired,

Short answer: 

Yes, your observations are nearly an identical story to mine with a few differences. 


Long answer:

However, my BPDw taunted me to record her, as she didn't think she was doing this kind of stuff, guess what - I did.  I did record her for a while on a regular and consistent basis, and I captured admissions/examples/ of all 9 symptoms on video, it leaves no doubt as to what she really is - I also reviewed times when she was spewing her false narrative where she twisted her facts to match her feelings (feels like gaslighting) towards me me, and it left no room for doubt in my mind on her behaviors.  Normally I don't record her unless she becomes dysregulated (which has been less and less with her therapy).  I also captured threats to make false allegations, and so forth should it ever escalate to the point of divorce.

I initially did it to disprove her false narrative that she wasn't doing these things when in fact she was.  However, later on, I was keeping the recordings, in case her feelings escalated the situation to divorce and/or false allegations (it is my 'get out of jail' card should it come to that).

Also, when I wasn't as emotionally charged, listening to some of the recordings afterward, I discovered some very nuanced changes in her in response to me - I call these 'pre-triggers' as it essentially takes the safety off, before she becomes cocked and discharges on me or whomever, is triggering to her at that moment in time.

Several months later she asked me if I was recording her, and I confirmed it.  Like you, I did it to stop her abusive behavior towards me and the children, as she now has it in the back of her mind that these can be used against her if she acts too crazy.  It is a bit of a deterrent; however, like a couple of weeks ago, she lost it on our daughter and had a major borderline episode complete with projected physical violence, splitting my daughter black with a complete false narrative, and raging at her on the top of her lungs, I put myself in the middle to protect my daughter, and her raging was then taken out on me, albeit with less intensity as I have had firm boundaries on "all abuse must stop".  It's not just me that she has these issues with either.  She has lost it on the church bell choir director too (I missed the first few seconds of it, but I captured the remainder on video too, as I was not expecting her to behave that way in church).

Right now, I only record when I know that there are stressors to the point of where she might be triggered (usually couple's therapy, as I hold the triggering stuff for discussion there).  Most of the time, I no longer record, as I have plenty to protect myself, in case she elects to go that way.

There have been, and I still anticipate that there will be setbacks from time to time; however, generally speaking she is doing a lot better than she was 15 months ago, when I started to put into place those boundaries (finding my backbone as you put it).

This is the formula that works for me, and it would appear that it works for you too.

I don't feel quite as bad as you do about implementing these draconian boundaries, as it was necessitated by her horrendous behaviors - I personally feel that the alternative to implementing these boundaries and deterrents (of video and documentation) is far better than her being on the receiving end of abuse towards me and the children, that was continually being escalated until the boundaries were put in place - this is my logical side speaking here.  The good of the three+ (me, the children, and others) outweigh the needs of the one (abusive pwBPD).  I have literally faced terrorists with a machine gun pointing at me, and the terror that my wife was inflicting on me and the family, and it was a whole lot easier facing the terrorists than my wife when she is irrational.

I was, and I still will be emotionally supportive of her, and will listen to her, and validate what and where I can; however, I will not validate her distorted narrative of facts that has been distorted by her feelings.

In summary, these boundaries are here to stay, as they seem to be the only thing that will mostly contain my wife's irrational outbursts, as she needs to have similar consequences to dealing with me as she would a coworker, fellow church member, etc.  If she feels safe, her behaviors escalate, so I find myself, keeping my wife at an arms length when she has the potential to dysregulate, and keep her far enough away so she will realize that there are consequences for her actions.  I am hoping to change this in the future; however, that is entirely up to her and her behaviors.  Since I cannot change her, it is likely here to stay, unless she continues to ask these questions, and not get triggered by the answers to her questions, and is willing to make the necessary changes where she does not push up against that boundary.

Thanks for asking the question.

Remember to do self-care, as I find it so important when dealing with all this stress.

Take care.

SD

[SaltyDawg]

P.S.  The 9th symptom of BPD is "Temporary paranoid thoughts or severe dissociative symptoms triggered by stress"

[CravingPeace]

Wow this related. Recently my wife was doing the usual behavior, and saying I had said something I hadn't. She also said maybe I had Alzheimer's like my father.  I made a remark that I had seen this cool device for work productivity that could record your screen and conversations and using AI help you recall anything. That would be useful now. She was really angry and said so you are going to spy on me. I said no of course not, I just saw this cool device and thought it would be helpful to know when I am being accused of dementia whether I actually said something I am accused of/or not. Granted I did record one conversation recently as I wanted to check whether as I suspected I was being told I had or hadn't said something when the inverse was true. Anyway the conversations stopped there.

She has been really cold recently and she has just asked if we could go do a divorce mediator. I asked what changed she said nothing has I want to make it work they say this will help.  Now today she sent me a long text about how the trust has gone from our marriage now I am spying on her and that I had said I don't enjoy talking to her so she doesn't see any point.

Twice I have corrected her and said I don't enjoy every week or so being asked for a chat where I am just critized that is what I do not enjoy.  It is not that I don't enjoy conversations with her, which she is now fixated on. I suggested perhaps "we" could be nice and compliment the good things each other does to make it balanced. But she ignores that and keeps saying I have said I don't enjoy talking with her. So now she thinks I am spying on her, also she thinks I have bugged the house and I don't want to talk to her. It is pretty clear this is what has driven her to want Divorce mediation!  I need to have a heart to heart and explain how I am not spying on her, I understand how upsetting it would be for her if I was, and I do enjoy talking with her when it is not me being body slammed over and over again about the various things about me she doesn't like!

[HurtAndTired]

Thank you for your replies Kells, SD and CravingPeace,


Kells. Thank you so much for your well-thought-out and detailed response! I really appreciate you taking the time to help. Let me start by saying that I might have overemphasized my wife's prior paranoia. While she has displayed paranoia, it has not been a main symptom for her. By my own (lay) diagnosis, she is a petulant sub-type BPD. Her symptoms have been dominated by frequent outbursts of anger and violence with extreme jealousy and isolating/controlling behavior.

The paranoia that I was referring to is a by-product of splitting (e.g. all men are bad, my co-workers are all lazy POS, etc.) It is an "everyone in my life is an A-hole" type of thinking rather than realizing that when you are surrounded by problems the one common thing (the A-hole) might be you. There might be some significant crossover between splitting and paranoia. The self-hate that comes from splitting on oneself makes blame-shifting to other groups of people a more palatable option. Hence the type of thinking that results, such as "my relationships all fail because men are all jerks who want to hurt women" rather than "I might be a difficult person to be in a relationship with" may be splitting that looks like paranoia rather than actual paranoia.

At other times the paranoia has been a product of the extreme jealousy. Even though I only used to leave the house to go to work, the store, or church she was sure that I was having an affair. I had been isolated to the point where I had no friends and barely even saw my family, but I would have to text her a selfie of myself with the priest or some such thing to prove that I was actually at church. The long and short of it is that she is not a paranoid nor delusional person, but rather that the occasional paranoia and delusions are transient by-products of the main symptoms (e.g. actually remembering me saying things I did not say so that inconvenient facts don't contradict her feelings) of petulant BPD.

SD Like you, I am in the midst of the fight of my life. It is a strangely adversarial mindset that I have had to take at the moment just to get things safe in my house for myself and my S2. While I do not think of my uBPDw as "the enemy" I definitely am fighting her unacceptable behaviors the way you would fight a fire, enemy combatant, or anything else that threatens your home, your life, and the life of your family. I call it strange because my partner is also my adversary, which feels strange, but I realize that by not tolerating her unacceptable behavior I am actually helping her by making her have to choose between leaving the relationship or learning to self-soothe. I take a large share of the responsibility for letting it get this bad in the first place. I should have made a stand years ago before things got this bad, and have a sneaking suspicion if I had been this hardcore about boundaries after the first slap that I could have gotten things turned around years ago.

To bring things back to the matter at hand. I am not actually recording her (although I have saved her texts threatening to kill herself, and I do have police records of them being called in response to her DV.) She is, however, very worried about being recorded. This is extremely out of character for her. She has never said this when she is at baseline and has only very recently said it when she is very, very dysregulated.

The clinician part of me observed the following chain of events happening in this order: she becomes dysregulated, I try to diffuse the situation calmly through SET, for whatever reason it does not work and she becomes more dysregulated and I remain calm and refuse to engage in an argument while validating what I can. She then becomes unnerved by me not "taking the bait" and stops herself (sometimes midsentence) and asks if I am recording the conversation. It is this stopping herself in the midst of dysregulation that I find fascinating and perplexing, as nothing like it has ever occurred during the 12 years we have been together. On the contrary, during dysregulation she tends to get more and more dysregulated until she either storms out and locks herself in a room, physically attacks me, or I am able to run away. Something has changed on a deep level, it has changed very recently, and I can only assume that it is in response to the changes I have made.

Kells, I know that you said boundaries are in place for our protection and not to change another person, which I agree with. But sometimes our protection necessarily involves forcing the person into a choice between staying in the relationship or persisting in the problematic behavior. I do not mean giving an ultimatum about leaving, I have already said I would not leave. I am talking about the practical reality that someone repeatedly going to jail for DV or having CPS called because they are a danger to their child will destroy the relationship unless the person with the problems seeks help. These are things that will happen to her if she attacks me or puts our S2 in danger. These are hard boundaries that exist for our protection. It is up to my wife to decide if she wants to change, but I will no longer be her safety net from hitting rock bottom.

What I am really hoping. Hoping against all hope is that this strange new behavior, stopping in the middle of severe dysregulation, and trying to get herself back under control is indicative of her finally recognizing on some level that there is something wrong with her. Or, at the very least, that someone else would see that there is something wrong with her behavior. She has never been willing to admit that she might have problems other than acknowledging that she knows she "has a temper" but this is always followed by the qualifier "and so do you."

I also truly believe it is the fear of exposure that is driving her. There have been times when we have been in public and I can see that I have triggered her by the look in her eyes. She can contain herself; smile and act normal for everyone else, but the little looks she gives me to let me know that I am in for it the second we are out of sight/earshot from everyone else send shivers through my veins. This is different though because she is merely holding back the dysregulation, not stopping in the middle of it. I am keeping my fingers crossed that she has had or is in the midst of having a personal breakthrough of self-realization about her condition. Only time will tell.

CravingPeace I can sympathize with all that you are going through. It sounds like you were trying to offer a logical and elegant solution to an illogical situation which then triggered a deep fear of being spied on in your wife. It is ironic when someone who feels completely justified in going through your phone (in my case at least) fears having an invasion of their privacy. BPD has caused me to completely give up on logic and reason and instead try to just deal with emotion when conversing with my wife in a dysregulated state.

Kells, this brings me back to your advice to lean into validation with the same vigor that I have been using with boundaries. I agree with you 100% and I am trying to ease into doing more validation work. It has been getting easier the more that I do it, but it is still hard work and does not come naturally. As I have been getting better at it, it has been working more often, but like anything doesn't work all the time. Part of it is that I still need to improve my skill at it and part of it is that sometimes validation just doesn't work no matter how well you do it. I am dedicated to not only making my home safe, but to having my S2 see what a "more normal" relationship looks like. I am only six months into the boundary work, so the validation work is taking a back seat to the validation work at this point. My primary concern is and always will be safety, but I am already seeing enough improvement in the violent/abusive behaviors that I am starting to shift more into a validation/improvement of the relationship mindset. It is this increased feeling of safety that has given me the breathing room to remain calm and clinically observe behavior rather than falling into a "fight or flight" response. I'm not saying that I don't still experience an adrenaline dump and get scared when she dysregulates, but that I can keep calm on the surface and keep a cool head that permits validation, or at the very least keeps me from reinforcing unacceptable behaviors by JADEing or any of other responses that got us here in the first place. Due to my wife's track record of violence, however, I don't think the adrenaline dump can (or should) ever completely go away. I need to be able to prioritize my safety and that of S2 at the drop of a hat if it ever comes to it and hypervigilance is the natural defense mechanism that keeps me sharp and ready.

I think that I am going to use SD's metric of two years without a major event to consider her condition in remission. Ultimately I have to hope to have her come to a moment of realization that she needs to get help because I don't think that we can get to remission with all of the effort coming from me. For now, I am just happy to have increased safety in my home. I don't know where this road will lead, but I do have real hope for the first time in many years that it will lead to a better place. I have all of you good folks and the resources that you have pointed me to, along with a wonderful therapist, to thank for that. I am so grateful to all of you for taking the time to listen, to help, and to just be here for me. You have all been a light in a very dark place for me.

Thanks again,

HurtAndTired

[HurtAndTired]

*the validation work is taking a backseat to the boundary work at this point.

[SaltyDawg]

H&T,

I have a few clarifications to make as I was not as clear as I should have been...

SD Like you, I am in the midst of the fight of my life. It is a strangely adversarial mindset that I have had to take at the moment just to get things safe in my house for myself and my S2. While I do not think of my uBPDw as "the enemy" I definitely am fighting her unacceptable behaviors the way you would fight a fire, enemy combatant, or anything else that threatens your home, your life, and the life of your family. I call it strange because my partner is also my adversary, which feels strange, but I realize that by not tolerating her unacceptable behavior I am actually helping her by making her have to choose between leaving the relationship or learning to self-soothe. I take a large share of the responsibility for letting it get this bad in the first place. I should have made a stand years ago before things got this bad, and have a sneaking suspicion if I had been this hardcore about boundaries after the first slap that I could have gotten things turned around years ago.

Even though re-reading my response, I can see where I can be perceived of having an adversarial mindset with my wife with me expressing the trauma that my wife put me through when comparing and contrasting to real life terrorists - I was attempting to convey my emotions that I was feeling when my wife was much more impactful towards me, with her behaviors, as she is a person whom I love, and she supposedly loves me, versus facing a situation which is more conventionally known for inducing a trauma response.  I love my wife deeply, so, when her behaviors were so hurtful towards me, I felt them that more intensely than an 'almost' combat situation ( saber rattling ).

I was very much more fearful of my wife than a terrorist, until I finally figured out that I needed to shift my priorities from reconnecting with my wife, to putting a stop to my wife's increasingly bad behaviors that were very impactful towards not only me, but our children as well.  In essence, I finally 'grew a backbone' and stood up to my wife and implemented and enforced a strong boundaries in which I would no longer tolerate her bad behaviors towards me and/or our children with central theme of "all abuse must stop".

My mindset, I feel has always been of love, and working towards having a stable and loving relationship.  However, it did take me much too long of a time to decide and implement, that I needed to focus on maintaining a peaceful coexistence first and foremost, and if there was room left over after that goal was for the most part achieved, then, and only then, could we start to reconnect on a romantic level with each other.  In essence I shifted my priorities from the obvious of reconnecting as a couple, to the less obvious one of stopping the bad behaviors which were tearing us apart.

To bring things back to the matter at hand. I am not actually recording her (although I have saved her texts threatening to kill herself, and I do have police records of them being called in response to her DV.) She is, however, very worried about being recorded. This is extremely out of character for her. She has never said this when she is at baseline and has only very recently said it when she is very, very dysregulated.

Please do keep those records, and back them up in the cloud, do not destroy them, as they are your 'get out of jail' card should you ever need them.  It is very easy for my wife's feelings to distort the facts to the point of being false allegations of abuse, she has already done it and has the potential to do it again.  Our current couple's therapist is a former CPS LCSW, and she validated my point of view when my wife expressed I had done child abuse in front of several mandated reporters (see my previous posts on this topic).  Even though I do not wish to record her, I feel as though I must when she really becomes dysregulated, as I have no idea what kind of false narrative she will share with others, I see it as a necessary evil, in order to protect not only myself, by our children too.

In essence it comes down to "Hoping/Praying for the Best; however, Preparing for the Worst". 

I personally see the recordings, real and/or imagined, as a 'deterrent' for bad behaviors from our respective pwBPD.

Your mention of being out of character for her, is a form of paranoia while under stress, it is a symptom of BPD.  Her mind is over-exaggerating her feelings since you are behaving as though you are being recorded, by remaining cool, calm, and collected, I can see how she perceives this.  My recommendation is to tell her 'this is not true' and leave it at that.  If she persists, ask her to find the camera(s) and/or the recording device(s) and then you will talk about it.

The clinician part of me observed the following chain of events happening in this order: she becomes dysregulated, I try to diffuse the situation calmly through SET, for whatever reason it does not work and she becomes more dysregulated and I remain calm and refuse to engage in an argument while validating what I can. She then becomes unnerved by me not "taking the bait" and stops herself (sometimes midsentence) and asks if I am recording the conversation. It is this stopping herself in the midst of dysregulation that I find fascinating and perplexing, as nothing like it has ever occurred during the 12 years we have been together. On the contrary, during dysregulation she tends to get more and more dysregulated until she either storms out and locks herself in a room, physically attacks me, or I am able to run away. Something has changed on a deep level, it has changed very recently, and I can only assume that it is in response to the changes I have made.

This is where your wife and mine differ.  As I have always remained calm when she was dysregulated, my behaviors have not changed before or after.  The only difference is that instead of continuing to engage her when she is dysregulated (upon the recommendation of our couple's therapist), making these 'rage sessions' last up to 7+ hours (typically 2-4 hours), I would disengage, and go gray-rock on her immediately after verbalizing this - this would end her rage/dysregulation in a matter of a few minutes; however, it would take a lot longer for her to re-regulate, a sleep cycle (or two), instead of when she was done raging, typically +/- 2-4 hours time.  A slower time for her to recover for her, in exchange for a more peaceful home.  A 'win' for me and/or our children, while she is visibly upset in silence until she can re-regulate after she has a night's sleep.

Thanks for sharing.  Take care.

SD

[HurtAndTired]

Thanks for sharing SD.

I am always glad to hear more about where you are in your journey as you are (I believe) a little over a year ahead of me. It gives me hope that I will be able to be where you are in a year's time if I keep on putting in the work. I do think that you are correct that there is a difference in that I believe that my wife has been more physically violent with me and that this violence escalated over time in both intensity and frequency.

For an idea of the severity, I took the MOSAIC DV assessment and answered the questions in as much detail as possible. The results came back as an 8 out of 10 with a quality (accuracy) level of 178 out of 200. This put me (and by extension our S2) at "high risk" of "worsening abuse, substantial violence, and even homicide." She has, in fact, hit me in the head with a heavy object that could have (unintentionally) been fatal. That is not to say that she has always been violent. We have been together for 12 years and the first time she physically attacked me was 5 years ago.

Things slowly escalated over time, which is one of the reasons that I am so upset with myself. I feel like if I could have grown a backbone during the first 7 years of our relationship, while the abuse was solely verbal and emotional, it might never have devolved into violence. However, now that it has, my therapist has said that I am dealing with some pretty severe trauma. The boundary work has made me start to feel safe again, but I still occasionally drop into feeling as if she is an adversary when she becomes severely dysregulated. Given the level of trauma that I have been through, I am proud of myself for being able to ignore the adrenaline in these times and still keep a calm head even though my instincts are screaming "run!"

Because things are getting better and the physical violence has completely stopped for going on seven months (a new record) I am seeing her in this light less often, but honestly don't know how long it will take me to be able to completely let my guard down.

However, it did take me much too long of a time to decide and implement, that I needed to focus on maintaining a peaceful coexistence first and foremost, and if there was room left over after that goal was for the most part achieved, then, and only then, could we start to reconnect on a romantic level with each other.  In essence I shifted my priorities from the obvious of reconnecting as a couple, to the less obvious one of stopping the bad behaviors which were tearing us apart.

This is exactly where I am at right now. With the violence gone and the other bad behaviors reduced I feel like we are approaching a place where healing can begin.

Please do keep those records, and back them up in the cloud, do not destroy them, as they are your 'get out of jail' card should you ever need them.  It is very easy for my wife's feelings to distort the facts to the point of being false allegations of abuse, she has already done it and has the potential to do it again.  Our current couple's therapist is a former CPS LCSW, and she validated my point of view when my wife expressed I had done child abuse in front of several mandated reporters (see my previous posts on this topic).  Even though I do not wish to record her, I feel as though I must when she really becomes dysregulated, as I have no idea what kind of false narrative she will share with others, I see it as a necessary evil, in order to protect not only myself, by our children too.

In essence it comes down to "Hoping/Praying for the Best; however, Preparing for the Worst".

I personally see the recordings, real and/or imagined, as a 'deterrent' for bad behaviors from our respective pwBPD.

Your mention of being out of character for her, is a form of paranoia while under stress, it is a symptom of BPD.  Her mind is over-exaggerating her feelings since you are behaving as though you are being recorded, by remaining cool, calm, and collected, I can see how she perceives this.  My recommendation is to tell her 'this is not true' and leave it at that.  If she persists, ask her to find the camera(s) and/or the recording device(s) and then you will talk about it.

I am keeping all of the records backed up in the cloud per recommendations by my therapist. I am also taking a "hope for the best, but prepare for the worst approach." Fortunately, my wife is a big texter and I have abundant evidence from her texts alone. I don't currently feel as if I need to do any audio or video recording, although I can see the value of it for several reasons. I also think that your suggestion to simply tell her "this is not true" is the right way to go. I have been doing this so far, which has only led her to demand that I hand my telephone over to prove it...which is a non-starter...which (in her mind) proves that I am recording her...and then she drops it! This is proof for me that the "real or imagined" recording device is truly a deterrent.

I would disengage, and go gray-rock on her immediately after verbalizing this - this would end her rage/dysregulation in a matter of a few minutes; however, it would take a lot longer for her to re-regulate, a sleep cycle (or two)

My wife is now taking the same amount of time to return to baseline. However, this is a huge improvement as she put me in silent treatment mode for an entire month back in August. When she is this dysregulated I go to my safe place in the guest bedroom and sleep with the door locked. One to two sleep cycles seem like the blink of an eye, and frankly give me a chance to catch up on my own sleep in a safe environment. Now when she returns to baseline she either directly or indirectly asks me to return to the master bedroom and I know it is safe.

As always, thank you for your encouraging words and insight. It helps so much to be able to have a place like this to reflect on things and have people who truly understand to bounce these observations and ideas off.

Thanks again,

HurtAndTired

[SaltyDawg]

H & T,

   Thanks for writing, again. 

I am always glad to hear more about where you are in your journey as you are (I believe) a little over a year ahead of me. It gives me hope that I will be able to be where you are in a year's time if I keep on putting in the work. I do think that you are correct that there is a difference in that I believe that my wife has been more physically violent with me and that this violence escalated over time in both intensity and frequency.

The act of a woman being physically violent with their partner, according to a peer reviewed study of prison inmates, 50% of women could be diagnosable as being BPD on this trait alone.  Furthermore, the informal poll, on BPD family (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=240171), when processing the numbers indicates this number is more likely around 66-69% from both sexes, male and female, being polled, the numbers do not lie. 

As of the time of this posting, 349 people have taken this informal poll on BPD family.  I can only assume a 50/50 split of male and female of persons being polled, as this number is an unknown I will assume that 175 of them are males.  In this poll 160 people where hit or intimidated by their female partner, also assuming that there are an equal number of MM & FF LGB partnerships, this number is not factored in.  So, with all of these assumptions being made, one can loosely correlate that of the 175 persons in this poll 160 of them have been hit and/or physically intimidated by a female is 91%, whereas the half of partners are being hit/intimidated by men (77/175) that number is 44%, and the overall DV number factoring in all sexes is (160+77)/349 is 68%.  So with a reasonable amount of certainty no less than 68% and that number is more likely closer than 91% of all persons are hit by their female partners, their partner likely has diagnosable BPD whether or not it is diagnosed in the case of the BPD family survey.   

BTW, the ratio of men hitting women vs women hitting men are consistent with the peer reviewed prison study where only 25% of men who hit women can be diagnosed as BPD.  Informal pole ratio is 44%m/91%f=0.48 when compared against the peer reviewed formal study is 25%m/50%f=0.50  (a 2% variance which is statistically insignificant) so my feeling is that the BPD family poll is likely more accurate than the prison study as these ratios are consistent across both the formal study and the informal poll.  To me these statistical numbers are downright frightening!

Physical violence has always been a firm boundary for me, so my wife has not escalated it, and when she does, I take action.

My wife's first two instances were way back in 2009.  The 2nd time was late at night, my wife had pushed me against the stairs, and our toddler daughter at the time came out of her room only to see mommy with hand cocked about to punch the crap out of me.  This terrified my wife, and scared her straight for more than a decade.  At that time, I contacted the local DV shelter, and had to contact them 3 times before they responded, and when they did, I was snubbed by the female president of the organization, as I was politely informed they did not protect men, and to use my intelligence to seek help elsewhere -- even though women are statistically twice as violent as men (although not as strong as men).

In 2022, when my wife had her most recent suicide attempt, and this was followed by physical violence towards me in my sleep where I was snoring too loudly, punching me in my back, kicking me, smacking the sh!t out of the wall where loose debri inside the wall rattled around, among other acts.  I did report the incidents in 2009 as I could tell my wife was about to become violent again, and I wanted to head it off.  When confronted, my wife readily admitted to our then couple's therapist (as she had punched me and kicked me earlier that morning), and she was reported to the authorities by this therapist only for the 2009 incident that she readily admitted to.  Little did the couple's therapist realize, she had done two acts of physical violence 88 minutes apart earlier that morning.  Other than the shovel incident on the 16th of this month, she has not escalated to hitting with objects, until recently.  This is consistent to what I have read, where it will escalate from incident to incident, and I can confirm this, and this is also consistent with what you have described with your wife.

Until 2022, I retired from my job as a sailor, where I was gone 80% of the time, and then I was home full time, and that got on my wife's nerves, so with me being physically not present, this allowed my wife to behave better. 

For an idea of the severity, I took the MOSAIC DV assessment and answered the questions in as much detail as possible. The results came back as an 8 out of 10 with a quality (accuracy) level of 178 out of 200. This put me (and by extension our S2) at "high risk" of "worsening abuse, substantial violence, and even homicide." She has, in fact, hit me in the head with a heavy object that could have (unintentionally) been fatal. That is not to say that she has always been violent. We have been together for 12 years and the first time she physically attacked me was 5 years ago.

I too took the MOSAIC assessment, results are 8/10 with 167/200 quality score for my wife.  As I indicated previously, the physical violence towards me started 8 years after meeting her, although, she was physically violent against herself with a knife to her wrist only 2 weeks after our honeymoon ended, and that was 2 years, 5 months, after we started dating.  My SB (fortunately I did not grow up with him, and do not share a surname with him; however, it is scary that my dad did marry his mom) is a notorious top 100 all time killer as ranked by People Magazine ( Psychology Today has labeled him a sociopath and possibly even a psychopath both of which are subset of ASPD, also cluster-B ), and my wife and him have similar personalities traits in some aspects.

Things slowly escalated over time, which is one of the reasons that I am so upset with myself. I feel like if I could have grown a backbone during the first 7 years of our relationship, while the abuse was solely verbal and emotional, it might never have devolved into violence. However, now that it has, my therapist has said that I am dealing with some pretty severe trauma. The boundary work has made me start to feel safe again, but I still occasionally drop into feeling as if she is an adversary when she becomes severely dysregulated. Given the level of trauma that I have been through, I am proud of myself for being able to ignore the adrenaline in these times and still keep a calm head even though my instincts are screaming "run!"

Unfortunately you cannot train (by having a firm boundary) violence out of someone who is prone to it, as I can attest with the recent January 16th incident with my wife and daughter - there will be lapses from time to time.  Just like Siegfried and Roy being mauled by on of their tigers in a show, it is a tiger's natural instinct just as it is for a borderline.

Because things are getting better and the physical violence has completely stopped for going on seven months (a new record) I am seeing her in this light less often, but honestly don't know how long it will take me to be able to completely let my guard down.

NEVER completely let your guard down.  As I indicated above, it can be as short as 88 minutes between incidents or more than a dozen years.  The most recent incident since I started to more strongly and actively enforcing a boundary it was 13 months and 10 days before a physical projection of violence occurred where my wife threw a snow shovel at or in the vicinity of my daughter, bringing her to tears out of fear of what mom might do to her.

This is exactly where I am at right now. With the violence gone and the other bad behaviors reduced I feel like we are approaching a place where healing can begin.

For me, that is something I am struggling with.  On the good days I want to be with her; however, on the bad days, I want nothing to do with her.  I so much want to believe this wishful thinking, as there has been evidence it is heading in this direction; however, with each lapse (mainly verbal), I find it difficult to have any meaningful healing, even though there have been a few spurts of healing here and there.

My wife has addressed some of the symptoms of BPD to my satisfaction, although she has some lapses:

  Impulsivity in ≥ 2 areas that could harm themselves (eg, unsafe sex, binge eating, reckless driving)
  Repeated suicidal behavior and/or gestures or threats or self-mutilation
  Inappropriately intense anger or problems controlling anger

However, the rest of them still need to be addressed.  I personally feel that the following two symptoms need to be addressed a lot more, before we really can start to reconnect like we did at the beginning of our relationship where she did the love bombing:

  Rapid changes in mood, lasting usually only a few hours and rarely more than a few days
  Temporary paranoid thoughts or severe dissociative symptoms triggered by stress

I am keeping all of the records backed up in the cloud per recommendations by my therapist. I am also taking a "hope for the best, but prepare for the worst approach." Fortunately, my wife is a big texter and I have abundant evidence from her texts alone. I don't currently feel as if I need to do any audio or video recording, although I can see the value of it for several reasons. I also think that your suggestion to simply tell her "this is not true" is the right way to go. I have been doing this so far, which has only led her to demand that I hand my telephone over to prove it...which is a non-starter...which (in her mind) proves that I am recording her...and then she drops it! This is proof for me that the "real or imagined" recording device is truly a deterrent.

This is where my wife differs from yours.  Mine hates anything in writing, so I was compelled to record.  My theory on this, is that if it is in writing it is generally factual - and as she changes her facts, to match her feelings.  If her feelings are written down in text/e-mail, then if and when she changes those facts, I can call her out on it, and ask her why her facts have changed.  So, she does not allow her facts to be set in writing, so she can freely change them on the whim of her feelings.

My wife is now taking the same amount of time to return to baseline. However, this is a huge improvement as she put me in silent treatment mode for an entire month back in August. When she is this dysregulated I go to my safe place in the guest bedroom and sleep with the door locked. One to two sleep cycles seem like the blink of an eye, and frankly give me a chance to catch up on my own sleep in a safe environment. Now when she returns to baseline she either directly or indirectly asks me to return to the master bedroom and I know it is safe.

I am confirming it now also takes your wife one to two sleep cycles to return to baseline?  I want to make sure I am understanding you correctly, as you indicated a month previously, which is not consistent with the 'mood swing' symptom of BPD.  I am curious.

As always, thank you for your encouraging words and insight. It helps so much to be able to have a place like this to reflect on things and have people who truly understand to bounce these observations and ideas off.

You're welcome.  My pleasure.

Be sure to do some self-care.

Take care.

SD

[HurtAndTired]

Thanks again SD,

Unfortunately you cannot train (by having a firm boundary) violence out of someone who is prone to it, as I can attest with the recent January 16th incident with my wife and daughter - there will be lapses from time to time.  Just like Siegfried and Roy being mauled by on of their tigers in a show, it is a tiger's natural instinct just as it is for a borderline.

NEVER completely let your guard down.  As I indicated above, it can be as short as 88 minutes between incidents or more than a dozen years.  The most recent incident since I started to more strongly and actively enforcing a boundary it was 13 months and 10 days before a physical projection of violence occurred where my wife threw a snow shovel at or in the vicinity of my daughter, bringing her to tears out of fear of what mom might do to her.

I completely agree with both of these statements. I guess I was talking about letting down my emotional guard. I don't believe that I will ever be able to, nor should I, lose my hypervigilance around her when it comes to physical violence, especially when she is dysregulated. I don't kid myself that she can be trained out of anything, especially when extremely dysregulated and her eyes go black. There is no one consciously piloting that ship when she is like that. It is pure primal rage and the only option is to get away. If, or rather when, she crosses this boundary the result will always be the same. The police will be called, again. I am hoping that being consistent with this boundary will help her hit rock bottom and she will be able to admit to herself that she needs to be in therapy.

For me, that is something I am struggling with.  On the good days I want to be with her; however, on the bad days, I want nothing to do with her.  I so much want to believe this wishful thinking, as there has been evidence it is heading in this direction; however, with each lapse (mainly verbal), I find it difficult to have any meaningful healing, even though there have been a few spurts of healing here and there.

The healing I am referring to here is my own. I am finally beginning to reclaim the person that I used to be and am no longer dominated by fear. I am ambivalent about ever getting back to the love-bombing type of relationship that we had in the beginning. As I said in a different post, I have realized that there are many, many types of love in the world besides romantic love. The love for family, friends, God, and a parent for a child. I am content to live with the rest of these loves in my life and to have them fill my cup, especially my love for my son. If we are ever able to get to a place that approximates a "normal marriage" it will just be a bonus. The thing that I am most interested in is safety and stability for myself and my son right now. I need to provide him with a good environment to grow up in and set a good example of how a sane, calm, rational adult acts. I finally have the hope that this will be possible.

I am confirming it now also takes your wife one to two sleep cycles to return to baseline?  I want to make sure I am understanding you correctly, as you indicated a month previously, which is not consistent with the 'mood swing' symptom of BPD.  I am curious.

Perhaps I was using the wrong terminology. It was not a mood swing. It was a split. My wife is an amazing grudge-holder. When she splits on me I do not doubt that there is something in her that probably tries to reset after a day or two, but she has a way of stoking herself up and re-angering herself all over again.

Not being privy to her thoughts, it is possible that she even returned to baseline long before she stopped giving me the silent treatment. It is possible that once she started the silent treatment, she just couldn't admit that she was wrong for doing so, felt shame at her treatment of me, or had just painted herself into a corner someway and did not know how to get out. To be fair, this is the longest silent treatment that she ever put me through and it was part of an extinction burst.

Although a month was the longest she has split on me straight, she has on several occasions gone for a week or two with the silent treatment when she has judged me guilty of some particularly distasteful offense. Like I said, I have no idea what is going on in her head when she is blocking me out, only that I used to beg and plead for her to stop ignoring me and now I just ignore her ignoring me for the most part. I will occasionally say hello, offer to pick her up something from the store, or some such thing just to test the waters, but I am completely ok with her ignoring me as long as she wants to. It is this demonstration that it no longer bothers me that I suspect is behind the behavior diminishing in duration and frequency.

When it comes to verbal abuse (screaming/cursing, etc.) that has almost always been a sleep cycle or two to reset to baseline. It has only been when things escalated to the emotional abuse of silent treatment that I knew I was in for the long haul. I don't know if this extended grudge-holding is a feature of the petulant sub-type of BPD or if it's just a personal quirk of hers, but I have seen her angry at someone else and observed her mentally (she sometimes talks to herself out loud) kind of pumping herself up to stay mad at this person. It was bizarre. The person was not around (someone at work) and we were not talking about them. We were just driving along in the car, listening to music on a road trip, and she started talking to herself. It was like she was going through a litany of all the reasons why this person was a jerk. I can only assume that she does something similar with me when I am the target.

I hope that clears things up.

Thanks,

HurtAndTired

[SaltyDawg]

H & T,

   Thank you for responding and clarifying.

I completely agree with both of these statements. I guess I was talking about letting down my emotional guard. I don't believe that I will ever be able to, nor should I, lose my hypervigilance around her when it comes to physical violence, especially when she is dysregulated. I don't kid myself that she can be trained out of anything, especially when extremely dysregulated and her eyes go black. There is no one consciously piloting that ship when she is like that. It is pure primal rage and the only option is to get away. If, or rather when, she crosses this boundary the result will always be the same. The police will be called, again. I am hoping that being consistent with this boundary will help her hit rock bottom and she will be able to admit to herself that she needs to be in therapy.

If the eyes go black, this is rare, but from what I have read from varying sources, this is a physiological effect typically associated with a sociopathic mental state where anger activates the sympathetic nervous system. This is the part of the autonomic nervous system from the primitive cave man part of the brain that creates the "fight or flight" response.  You are absolutely right in what you have said.  Call 911 every time this happens, and stay out of her way, as she has absolutely no control over herself in that state.  Hopefully she will figure it out after she regains some control.  Make sure that 911 knows about this condition, as she will require special handling or it can become tragic. 

Also, if you can record it with a cell phone, this will help her get the help she needs whether or not she wants to get that help.

I have not observed my wife's eyes doing this; however, there have been a handful of members, including you, who have described this phenomena - even though there is a lack of documentation on this with regards to BPD,  I feel that this is an extreme mental disconnect, even by BPD standards.

The healing I am referring to here is my own. I am finally beginning to reclaim the person that I used to be and am no longer dominated by fear. I am ambivalent about ever getting back to the love-bombing type of relationship that we had in the beginning. As I said in a different post, I have realized that there are many, many types of love in the world besides romantic love. The love for family, friends, God, and a parent for a child. I am content to live with the rest of these loves in my life and to have them fill my cup, especially my love for my son. If we are ever able to get to a place that approximates a "normal marriage" it will just be a bonus. The thing that I am most interested in is safety and stability for myself and my son right now. I need to provide him with a good environment to grow up in and set a good example of how a sane, calm, rational adult acts. I finally have the hope that this will be possible.

Ahh, understood.  I am at the same point as you, not a year ahead, you have learned so much quicker than I have.  I am hopeful and wishful that this will approximate a normal marriage, and I too would consider that a bonus, as that is a secondary goal, no longer the primary one, that the couple's T wants me to do (as primary).

Perhaps I was using the wrong terminology. It was not a mood swing. It was a split. My wife is an amazing grudge-holder. When she splits on me I do not doubt that there is something in her that probably tries to reset after a day or two, but she has a way of stoking herself up and re-angering herself all over again.

From my understanding, the mood swing which often coincides with the anger symptom, the mood swing is what causes the split, where she is now in the mood that you can do no right/good irrespective of the anger level.  My wife has been getting better at not holding grudges (through therapy), she used to hold grudges a lot longer and a lot more frequently too.  Your 'grudge' explanation makes sense.  Mine has done that too, and still does it as she says she 'doesn't trust' me (for reasons of her own making).

When it comes to verbal abuse (screaming/cursing, etc.) that has almost always been a sleep cycle or two to reset to baseline. It has only been when things escalated to the emotional abuse of silent treatment that I knew I was in for the long haul. I don't know if this extended grudge-holding is a feature of the petulant sub-type of BPD or if it's just a personal quirk of hers, but I have seen her angry at someone else and observed her mentally (she sometimes talks to herself out loud) kind of pumping herself up to stay mad at this person. It was bizarre. The person was not around (someone at work) and we were not talking about them. We were just driving along in the car, listening to music on a road trip, and she started talking to herself. It was like she was going through a litany of all the reasons why this person was a jerk. I can only assume that she does something similar with me when I am the target.

I hope that clears things up.

Yes, it does clear things up, a lot.  My wife does something very similar, doesn't talk to herself, but she vents to me, to obtain validation of her feelings (which I do, as her feelings are valid) and her skewed facts about the person at work (which I rarely validate, as I don't want to validate the invalid; however, if I am aware it is true, then I will validate).

Thanks for the clarification.

I am so sorry you have the 'black eye' version of your pwBPD, as that can be truly terrifying when you have to witness this.

Good luck, and take extreme care, that includes self-care.

SD