Incentivizing children to be financially independent

[formflier]

In other threads there has been some discussion about moving people towards financial independence.

Axiom:  Disordered and "ordered" people generally do what they are incentivized to do.

I'm not aware of anyway to get this done that doesn't involve setting a hard deadline/consequence and sticking to it.  If there is an incentive to "wait out authorities", then most people will do that.

I can appreciate that parents want to "do this as nicely as possible", so the idea below has a "coming alongside" feel to it, it incentivizes them earning on their own and respects their decision to not earn (if that is their choice.)

For simplicity's sake I'm going to break this into "4 quarters".  So in one year you wean them off.

Quarter 1:  You put together your pool of support money and let them know that you will provide $2 of support for every $1 that they earn.  They prove earnings with their paystub (or however earnings are reported to taxing authorities)

Quarter 2:  $1 to $1

Quarter 3:  You provide 50 cents for each dollar they earn.

Quarter 4:  You provide 25 cents for every dollar they earn.

First quarter of the next year take a vacation and enjoy them being on their own.

Critical points.  They earn first and then you support their earnings.  

Should they choose to not support themselves, respect their choice.  Life consequences generally have a way of motivating people.  Don't short circuit this process with a "rescue".

Best,

FF

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Turkish]

How would one apply this if one's child were at risk of being homeless if financially cut off which often is the case given a dual diagnosis (substance addiction)?

[Resiliant]

Hi Formflier,

I have read many of your posts and have found your advice to be solid and most helpful!   

As a parent of an adult BPD son I can see where many parents might look at your plan and say "wouldn't that be wonderful but it simply will never work with my child".

Should they choose to not support themselves, respect their choice.  Life consequences generally have a way of motivating people.  Don't short circuit this process with a "rescue".

This is something that I 100% agree with, and something that I had to do.   I told my son that I don't care if he chooses to be rich or poor,  it is his life and I will love him either way.

I just want to share my story for anyone who is scared to let their adult child go (financially).

My son was homeless for a time.   During that time he would take on odd jobs, but didn't really want a job.  He expressed a hatred for "evil corporations".  We did not allow him to live with us without going to school or having a job and paying rent.  I never offered him money and he knew better than to ask for it. 

From age 17 to 26, he wandered.  Took on odd jobs.  Didn't have a license and hitch-hiked everywhere, including across the country back and forth a few times. For quite a while in his mid-twenties he busked for a living.  I was concerned about him, but didn't let it consume me.  His hair was in dreadlocks and it looked like he had a rat's nest on the back of his head.  Still, I think those were the happiest times of his life!

In his late twenties, one day he suddenly purchased a brand new car.  It was a complete surprise to us.  I asked him how he would qualify for the financing and he said that he told them he would be making X amount working for Uber.   Uber worked out perfectly for him for a few years and I was so thankful for it.   It was perfect because if he was having a bad day emotionally, he could just choose not to work until he felt better.  He had major sleep deprivation issues and he could work around that as well, making his own hours whereas if he had a regular job and a boss he would be fired for calling in sick or making excuses etc.

He always smoked weed and my husband always insisted that weed was the whole problem in his life.   I was finally able to confidently say to my husband that it wasn't the weed that controlled my son's behavior, it was the BPD or else he wouldn't be able to maintain this job.  He refused to risk his job, his license or his car and never drove under the influence.  It was finally proof that it wasn't the weed that was controlling his life.  He was able to control the weed.  The weed was just a coping mechanism.

I honestly thought that Uber was his perfect answer and that he might do this for the rest of his life although I worried that he was barely making a living and putting far too many miles on his car for what it would become worth.   At the same time I was so happy that he had this opportunity and I was proud of him for his turn-around and how well he took care of his car.

Long story short, at age 30 he eventually quit working for Uber and took a full time job doing something I never thought he was capable of.  This year he worked 5 days a week, 11 hours per day.  He had to get up super early in the morning.  He had to discipline himself to get to bed on time and do what it took to make sure he could sleep.  It wasn't perfect, he was unbelievably irritable, upset with me that he had to do that to survive and that I wouldn't let him work for me instead.  He told me that he had to drink himself (alcohol) to sleep each night etc.  It was incredibly hard for him, but he did it and stuck it out until the end of the season.  He can have the job back in the spring if he wants.   I told him that I hope he is proud of himself because that was a huge accomplishment.

When I spoke to him at Christmas he sounded so happy.  He was back out west and told me that he put a deposit on a place where there was lots of work and he was going to find a job for the winter.  It was such a good feeling to hear him talk so happy and to hear him saying that he's going where the work is!  Such a positive change.

My point of this story is that things can eventually get better, even if it takes several years.

Also, why should we impose our values on them once they are full-fledged adults?  As Formflier said, respect their choice.

With BPD shame is a big issue.  When our kids are dependent upon us they are not proud of it.  Being able to be self sufficient helps to build confidence in themselves.

If we don't have the faith in our kids that they can do or achieve something, how are they going to have faith in themselves?

Let go... and let live

R

[formflier]

How would one apply this if one's child were at risk of being homeless if financially cut off which often is the case given a dual diagnosis (substance addiction)?

The more complex the diagnosis, the more important it is that appropriate medical professionals state their opinion regarding ability to work (very important to separate ability from desire).

There are those where the incentives might be put in place to incentivize them for applying for disability or taking other steps to get aid.

Basically a spectrum from fully able to work but enabled not to work and on the other end someone with visions of grandeur that they can work, yet no medical professionals agree they can sustain work (or perhaps full time work).

I've been and continue to be a parent that is intentional about creating resilient and self sufficient children.  This was done easiest when we lived on a farm full time.  Plenty of hard and smelly work to do that quickly shows kids that "no work is beneath them".

That's really the starting point.  My goal was to get them to understand that their work was about providing for others and those (including animals) that were depending on them.

So, when I hear tell of 20 somethings that "won't take jobs beneath them"...uggg...double and triple ugg.

Kids and adults need to figure out first they can do things by themselves and that when the break things or "effe it up" that they (alone) can clean up their mess and get on the right path. 

Tough to watch your kids screw up and hold back as (at best) a cheerleader. 

Once they get it they can really do it alone, then they are ready for teamwork...then you get synergy and all kinds of good things start happening.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Great story!  Thanks for sharing.

I love questions like below.

If we don't have the faith in our kids that they can do or achieve something, how are they going to have faith in themselves?

I remember the first time I really...really had to apply this.  I was scared to death.

I suppose my oldest was around 3rd or 4th grade at the time.  We had pretty good climbing trees in our back yard and since he is naturally a bit of a timid child, I had incentivized him to go higher a few times.

Naturally he started thinking he could go to the sky and then one day went up a tree I didn't think he could climb.  Way up.  Like if he had asked me ahead of time, I would have nudged him towards another tree.  Well he was so focused on getting up there he didn't spend much time looking down. 

Well...he looked down and freaked.  I freaked too but did it internally.  He was asking me to get the ladder or call the fire department or whatever.  He "couldn't" get down.

Just about that time Mommy opened the door and said lunch was ready.  I collected rest of kids and hollered up to him that lunch was ready and he probably shouldn't delay coming in because we were all hungry and might eat it all...

He sounded kinda panicky...I told him he could do it.  You got up...so you can get down.

Well...as we were getting towards the end of the meal a sweaty guy came walking in grumping and complaining, yet he was standing taller. 

I don't think he ever climbed that tree again (thankfully), yet I'm also glad I let him sort it out.

Best,

FF

[Trust5]

 Thank you F F for a good suggestion and formula for providing financial support. I will bring that to the counselor when we get there.  I am finding it helpful to read others posts. For example, trying to see our BPD child’s viewpoint of feeling shame of not being financially independent. I know our daughter felt some guilt over us paying thousands of dollars for her to be in a residential facility. But now that she has been out for two years, she forgets that we still have a monthly loan to pay off since it was so ridiculously expensive and I’m not even feeling like the investment was worth it.  I would welcome more suggestions for making her accountable in baby steps.

[formflier]

 
Can she pay the loan?

Best,

FF

[PeaceMom]

Trust,
The last time DD19 uBPD was arrested for climbing on ExBF’s roof and claiming she would harm herself and taken to hospital, she accrued a $2000 copay. Previously, I had told her that “next time you need to go to hospital you will have to
Pay your portion”. After she was released and the bills started coming in, I sat with her very calmly when she was more regulated and had her call the billing dept and tell them she was a 19 yr old part-time college student w/a part time job and asked if she could pay $50 a month. They agreed and she’s chipping away at it.

I am absolutely NOT a success story on this forum and we experience immense daily struggles in my family, but wanted to make this suggestion to you!

Could this possible work for you?

[twocrazycats]

Peacemom, what you describe sounds like a HUGE success. It's not just your daughter paying off the copay, it's her learning how to manage situations like that rather than just avoid them or expect someone else to handle them.
2CC

[PeaceMom]

2CC-
Thanks for that. I’d never have had the courage to do that if I hadn’t read ”Loving Someone w/BPD”. It’s very tricky not to fragilise DD who IS fragile. Maybe she’ll think twice before she impulsively climbs on a roof and threatens to kill herself. But maybe not. One thing I’ve learned is that nothing is certain in the BPD Arena and like Skip said it’s like handling a bomb.

[Swimmy55]

I do agree with some aspects of this post.  However the key here is the dual diagnosed adult child  has to be willing to be evaluated to qualify for disability.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[formflier]

 However the key here is the dual diagnosed adult child  has to be willing to be evaluated to qualify for disability. 

Yep...100% agree.  When you look at people that "aren't willing", take a deliberate...hard look at the "incentives" that are influencing them in their life.

If there is an incentive to do things other than the "healthy" choice, a lot of thought needs to go into changing those incentives...especially if it becomes obvious there was NOT a lot of thought put into putting the current incentives in place.

Also, dual (or multiple) diagnosis often have competing treatment goals (effects).  Perhaps a medication that helps one thing, makes someone gain weight, which negatively affects hypertension (for instance).

Often wisdom can be elusive in these situations and results are in a zigzag pattern.

Then, there is also a question to be asked of mental health providers.  "Does this disorder likely result in irrational behavior"  If so, that complicates incentives ...which normally work well with rational thinkers.

Good thread...keep it up!  Anyone want to start a thread to talk about their dual diagnosis situation? It seems several have brought them up.

I kinda have that going on with me personally.  I am "single diagnosis" for mental (PTSD) but have a laundry list of physical issues.  Many times working on one affects the others in ways I didn't see coming.  (100 % permanent and total through VA and on SSDI from social security).

Best,

FF

[Swimmy55]

Hmm, good food for thought FF.  I have to ponder this some more.


 

[zachira]

I think having a plan for incentivizing children to be financially independent is all about having healthy boundaries with the child. Certainly there has be financial boundaries no matter what the capacity is for the child to be independent, and this can include setting up a trust in which someone is appointed to manage how the money is distributed to pay the child's bills, like rent.

[formflier]

Hmm, good food for thought FF.  I have to ponder this some more.

And..when pondering.  If your particular financial situation is "working for you", then put your thoughts elsewhere.

If you feel like you have been trying and trying to get X to happen financially, yet it doesn't change or (heaven forbid) gets worse...FF bets there are some incentives in there that are aligned to meet the goals.

I'm also a big proponent of celebrating and splurging, when long term financial goals get met...or milestones get past.

I did a few weeks ago with my last cell phone "move".

My oldest three are now completely responsible for their cell phone bills and usage.  The next three down are on low cost, low data plans (republic wireless) and they routinely spend most of the month without data (but can call and text or get on wifi for data).  

They may or may not learn from this...time will tell.  When I need to get in touch with them they answer or respond to a text (at this point FF moves along)

My wife and are "one flesh" on reducing screen time for them inside the home (inside our boundaries).

We are also pretty solid that the last 2 aren't getting smart phones for a long time.  Perhaps "flip phones" that only call and text.

Anyway 6 months ago cell phones were a thorn in my side.  I wasn't happy...they weren't happy.

Now...no more thorn.  I'm happy.  I'm assuming they are happy...(sometimes ignorance is bliss).   

Best,

FF

[PeaceMom]

Swimmy
My DS24 BP1 w/BPD traits and SUD allowed my to make the call to SS office to ask Qs about Disability. He allowed me to fill out his paperwork and send in Med records. They required one long consult with a Psychologist. He’s was easily awarded SSI AND SSDI based on his BP1 diagnosis and inability to maintain work or college for a long period of time without becoming quite ill.
He jokes about it a lot and says it’s ridiculous and embarrassing but we simply say currently you meet the criteria. If and when you do not, you will no longer receive it. We have really worked on not stigmatizing him for it.

Unfortunately one can’t live off $600 a month so we support him. He was able to work last year and his benefits were reduced quite a bit. But sure enough he spiraled into serious illness and had to be hospitalized for months and lost his job.

Has your DS considered governmental assistance?

[Swimmy55]

I've been writing a lot about my story here for the past 9 months so I won't get too deeply into the weeds again.
   
After being violent with me back in Feb I gave DS a final ultimatum of get help or  I will start the 30 day eviction process in accordance to our state.  Within one week he bashed in portions of my home,causing  thousands in damage.  So I had to call for an emergency psych eval and restraining order against him at the same time etc etc 
.  He declined rehab and got kicked out of another relative's house after 6 weeks. 

 The piece of good news in all this hell, is that I opened some of his mail back in late November and found out someone other than me has made a payment for his credit cards and car insurance.  He has scraped  some type of something together.  I have no idea if it's legal .  However, he is alive and at least he is aware he has bills that must be paid. In short, while he was with me after graduating in 2017, nothing  worked  for me at all. I/he was at the far end of the spectrum where  the only final terrible incentive left was   getting kicked out .  I am trying to flip this into a victory ( even if it is a sad one) where he is now doing ( so far) what he couldn't do when he was living with me.

[Swimmy55]

I don't want to end it on that note.  It is New Years after all.
I am happy, Peacemom that your son is getting some SSI.  I know you were wondering about him stating school this past semester.  I think this is wonderful.

I am interested in hearing others - this is a good , thought- provoking post.

[Swimmy55]

Happy New Year to all,
 This post has helped me a lot.  It reinforced to me that I did all I could humanly do with my  DS.  I have had doubts ( still do, truthfully).  I have been feeling guilty for setting up boundaries for him;I mistook him crashing through all my boundaries / incentives through 2017-19 as a failure on my part.  With the help of this post I have  turned over everything I did/ didn't do and I see that I just didn't have a choice. 
I know men and women are suffering on these boards, but in my experience in the world, it is always the mother's fault.  I was even told my son's condition was my fault by my son's therapist / social worker at Sheppard Pratt back in 2009- one of the country's top psychiatric hospitals.  So the doubt eats away at my psyche , etc etc.
Anyway, thank you FF for starting this post.  And I am thankful for this forum as well.

[PeaceMom]

Swimmy,
I’ve been in awe of your bravery and hold you in the highest regard. We are dealing with the most difficult personalities on the planet so we must figure out how to give ourselves the grace and compassion we deserve. I’m learning that being a “good enough” mom is me doing my very best. Happy New Year!
(P.s. my kid was at Menninger (the other top psych hospital in the U.S.) and I received the same treatment of the mother is at core of his problems bc of my lack of boundaries! Ridiculous and untrue!)

[Swimmy55]

Thanks , Peacemom, for sharing about Meninger's and the reminder that being a good enough Mom is enough .

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[livednlearned]

We are dealing with the most difficult personalities on the planet so we must figure out how to give ourselves the grace and compassion we deserve.

Amen to that PeaceMom.

I also think having a BPD child is uniquely difficult. More complicated than a BPD spouse in many ways.

My ex had BPD (spouse) and my husband's D23 (child) has BPD. Husband's ex is also BPD, we share that marital experience in common.

The challenges as a parent have more complicated dynamics (viewing as a step parent). The boundaries H was able to erect with his BPD spouse are much, much harder to erect with a child because of the nature of their biological bond and the internal and external pressures he feels as a parent.

As dad, he also has more cultural training to push the fledglings out of the nest so to speak. Whereas moms are trained and rewarded and socialized to nurture nurture nurture. Even as step mom to SD23 I feel I have to all but rewire myself as a parent.

There is a lot of shame in our family dynamics where there should be awe. To set a boundary with a BPD child takes a degree of strength and courage that most people simply cannot see.

[PeaceMom]

LNL,
Can you expand on the notion of awe as opposed to shame?
Shame is a common denominator in all w/BPD and maybe even their immediate families. My Pia Mellody FOO intensive really focused on giving shame back to whomever it rightfully belongs to vs. carrying it for another. For example, if DD19 puts something on social media (like an inappropriate, provocative photo of herself), I might see it and instantly feel shame was over me. What that is actually about is not knowing where she ends and I begin. Little children take on the shame of shameful adults in their lives who don’t own their own shame. As an adult, I’m to use my adult logic and not take on her shame.

[livednlearned]

Can you expand on the notion of awe as opposed to shame?

Given how disordered and dysfunctional and off the rails my blended family is (none of the 4 kids are neurotypical ...), we've kept a lot of plates spinning.

I am working daily to feel awe and gratitude for what we've accomplished in spite of these challenges. 

[PeaceMom]

Got it -this goes along perfectly with learning self compassion.