I don’t believe in radical acceptance

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I know that this will be met with disagreement, but I just don’t believe in this philosophy. Most of us that have been through one or several of these relationships has possibly experienced turmoil and the literal upending of our lives. BPD, along with the other 3 Cluster B’s lies on a spectrum. To me, radical acceptance equates to the standardization of PD’s. How is something on a spectrum standardized? Aside from that, mine knows right from wrong. That being said, I refuse the idea that I should radically accept her actions. I don’t believe that she is fully diagnosable. I do know that she carries enough traits to make life hell. I also know that she is in denial. Radical acceptance is a slippery slope IMHO. It is the ultimate enabler. I have read older posts about members wishing that these PD’s would make their way into mainstream media. What if they did, with radical acceptance tied to them? Radical acceptance isn’t scientific. It’s an opinion. A theory. I won’t radically accept my abuser. I will radically reject her. They know right from wrong. Radical acceptance enables, and I believe that it is counterproductive advice. I may be way off base. Please chime in.

[JNChell]

I know that this will be met with disagreement, but I just don’t believe in this philosophy. Most of us that have been through one or several of these relationships has possibly experienced turmoil and the literal upending of our lives. BPD, along with the other 3 Cluster B’s lies on a spectrum. To me, radical acceptance equates to the standardization of PD’s. How is something on a spectrum standardized? Aside from that, mine knows right from wrong. That being said, I refuse the idea that I should radically accept her actions. I don’t believe that she is fully diagnosable. I do know that she carries enough traits to make life hell. I also know that she is in denial. Radical acceptance is a slippery slope IMHO. It is the ultimate enabler. I have read older posts about members wishing that these PD’s would make their way into mainstream media. What if they did, with radical acceptance tied to them? Radical acceptance isn’t scientific. It’s an opinion. A theory. I won’t radically accept my abuser. I will radically reject her. They know right from wrong. Radical acceptance enables, and I believe that it is counterproductive advice. I may be way off base. Please chime in.

[Skip]

What does radical acceptance mean to you?

[JNChell]

Used in these terms, to accept what has been perpetuated on me while showing remorse to the perpetrator. To willfully accept abuse. To give a pass to someone that knows right from wrong.

[Skip]

Where did you get that definition (honest question)?

Radical acceptance means to accept reality as it is, not for what you wish it would be. Here is the full explanation from Linehan: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=90041.0;all

This is an application of it. This members is separated from her boyfriend but wants to get back together (you participated in her threads).  She has visions of returning to where the relationship was. She has lots of evidence that her boyfriend is dating. He says he is not. She want to believe that the relationship is on the mend.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=321221.msg12941515#msg12941515

Radical acceptance is accepting that the relationship is over, he is dating, and the old relationship is dead.

Radical acceptance is the opposite if wishful thinking.

[heartandwhole]

Used in these terms, to accept what has been perpetuated on me while showing remorse to the perpetrator. To willfully accept abuse. To give a pass to someone that knows right from wrong.

Yes, if that were my definition, I'd be rejecting it, too JNChell. I hear what you are saying.

I agree with Skip: radical acceptance to me is accepting what is, here and now. When I truly accept what IS, then I can open up to ways to change whatever is happening. If I refuse to accept what is, then I'm perpetually stuck in delusion, and can't make effective decisions.

heart

[JNChell]

Skip & heartandwhole, I’ll PM you guys this weekend. I’m crazy busy this weekend and still have to cram my training in so I won’t be on the boards much. Just letting you know I’m not ignoring the thread that I started. Have a nice weekend!   

[Jeffree]

Someone recommended that book to me a long time ago. I finally bought it, but it remains on my nightstand unopened.

I, too, have a hard time with the idea of forgiveness of someone like my STBx, who seemed to want to destroy me in every way possible.

However, I have moved on, and that shift has been so big as to make her so small in my emotional space and world that the least I can do is not take it personally anymore. I think to do this is enough as opposed to this whole big forgiveness thing.

J

[Skip]

I, too, have a hard time with the idea of forgiveness of someone like my STBx, who seemed to want to destroy me in every way possible.

I understand where you are coming from.

We did abuse recovery work with the Morris Foundation a few years back. It lead to all the steps (click each one). It's a really valuable tool.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=331826.0

#18, which comes late in the recovery process is:

I have resolved the abuse with my offenders to the extent that is acceptable to me.

HEALING [Step 18]: This step involves making a decision about resolving the issues left over from your childhood abuse with those who abused you and/or failed to protect you: your parents/abusers. The important task in this step is to resolve the abuse with your family in a way that is acceptable to you. You have the right to choose how to do this. It is not mandatory to confront your parents, family or abusers, although many survivors find confrontation valuable. However, you want to maintain a relationship with your parents/abusers without hiding your recovery efforts or denying your new identity as a recovered survivor, you probably will need to do something. And, if there is to be a continuing relationship, your parents/abusers will need to accept you as you now desire to be accepted: with respect, consideration and acknowledgement of the burdens you have overcome.

You must remember that, because you are dealing with people who may never have faced or changed their own abusive behavior, the degree of resolution will depend on the extent to which they can acknowledge the abuse. For this reason, there is a wide range of possible resolutions which, ultimately, will determine whether you can still have some kind of relationship with your parents/ abusers. If you decide to confront them, it is critical that you go into it fully prepared for whatever responses or consequences follow. If they do not want to hear your experience or accept the person you are becoming, then you must face the question of whether ongoing contact will be healthy for you.

This step presents the big issue of whether to forgive your parents/abusers. In a sense, resolving the abuse means coming to terms with what was done to you and accepting the feelings you have toward the people that did it. For some people this means forgiveness, but not necessarily for you. Those who were very sadistically and severely abused may never be able to forgive their parents/abusers. Accepting that the abuse occurred and putting it all behind you once and for all may be the only resolution that makes sense and feels right. Deciding whether to forgive or accept is your choice and no one else's.

This is the bpdfamily's (as an organizations) suggestions on the matter. All of us face this decision. Member's go different directions when they do. There are lots of reasons for that  that are valid in each case. And people change their minds after a while. That is valid too.

Everyone on this back board has starred down this issue and made a decision that gets them to step #19.

As a team, we should understand and support this diversity. The choice is often deeply personal.

PS: Tara Brach's book on Radical Acceptance is different than Marsha Linehan's clinical "Radical Acceptance". Brach is talking about finding inner peace by accepting (forgiving, etc) yourself. Its also about accepthing the world the way it is rather  than stressinng over it not being the way you want it to be.

[once removed]

radical acceptance is a zen sort of concept, but its not really hard to put into practice. the essence of it, to me, is, "it is what it is". its not the same as, but i consider it strongly related to Wisemind. most of the time we are using Wisemind, we are radically accepting our situation for what it is.

think of a time in your life that you were overwhelmed by something. everything about the situation sucked. but you understood that you couldnt go back in time to stop it. you didnt minimize or overstate the enormity of it. then you gritted your teeth, and you played the cards you were dealt and faced the situation, and the reality of it.

thats radical acceptance to me. i radically accepted that i was deeply wounded by my breakup, that i had a long road of recovery ahead of me, that it would entail ups and downs with a whole lot of downs, and that eventually, i would make it through stronger than before.

[JNChell]

I said I would PM, but I’ll just go ahead here. The only understanding of radical acceptance that I’ve had up to this point has been from a MRA [Men's Rights Activists] point of view. I haven’t read about it here. Clearly, it is opinionated or ideological as it has a different meaning to different people or groups. A MRA resource is where I found the term and description. It was described as I stated in my first couple of posts. It makes sense to me. The worldly and personal view makes sense as well. But, right now, where I sit with my own thoughts and ideology? I have no desire to understand or accept her influence on my life. Understand her traits? I have to. It goes that far and no further.

[Skip]

For 15 years, bpdfamily.com has been a gathering place for openness, emotional support and clinically responsible information -- 24 hours a day. bpdfamily is not a victims community or an emotional free-for-all. The members here are genuine and caring.The site is clinically based and the editorial has clinical oversight. The discussion are moderated and the members who come here are serious about learning and growing. It is a safe place for intelligent discussion and respite from the egos and tempers that plague many large blogs and messageboards.
https://bpdfamily.com/about

My suggestion is that we work here with the clinically based definitions as we try to do in all cases. That is our platform.

There are a lot of terms and concepts floating around the Internet with multiple meanings. And then there are the made-up things like "hoover", "greyrock", "gaslight" that are more superlatives that concepts and they obscure more than they clarify. Plain English says it better. I was hoovered. I got a text last night.

We have carefully published the clinical definitions here and want to steer our members to use them so that we are all using a compatible vocabulary. All our definitions have a clinical source.

[Turkish]

JNChell, I don't know if this will help you,  but my T told me a few years ago,  "I sense that a lot of your anger comes from expecting her to be who she is not."

[Harley Quinn]

Hi JNChell,

This is a good discussion.  I can see there are different perceptions of what this means as will often be the case as we all have our own map of the world and people will change meanings to suit their own cause.

To me, Radical Acceptance (DBT tool - predominantly based on mindfulness) is simply about getting to grips with reality.  An example from my own r/s is that when it became physically abusive, I minimised this to some degree and also found myself excusing the behaviour as stemming from my dBPDbf's illness and poor coping skills.  In short I attached a story to the situation.

Radical Acceptance brings to mind the core teachings of mindfulness - which is in itself paying attention in a particular way: on purpose, in the present moment, and nonjudgmentally.  

I prefer when thinking of radical acceptance, to consider an experience or situation for that reason, rather than attaching a story to it.  eg 'my partner has a mental illness' - that's a fact.  Undisputable.  I don't have to like it.  It just is.  Struggling to incorporate that fact into our story, plans or wishes/desires is where the discomfort sets in.

What I failed to do when my r/s became violent was to accept that I am being physically abused here; this is a behaviour he demonstrates rather than being swamped by my own perceptions and judgements of what was happening and why - or worse, denial.  With that clarity of mind, of acceptance, I might have made different decisions.  

[Jeffree]

"I sense that a lot of your anger comes from expecting her to be who she is not."

As for myself, I would counter that with a question: Why is it that when someone turns out to be who they are not, it is always in the worst way as opposed the best way?

J

[Skip]

As for myself, I would counter that with a question: Why is it that when someone turns out to be who they are not, it is always in the worst way as opposed the best way?

Can I counter, too  

When we meat someone and fall for them, we assign to them a lot of characteristics that we want in our partner. This is natural. They do the same. We all sense this and try not to disappoint or disqualify ourselves.

So, often when the person is no who I thought she was... .we are often saying, she is not who I wished her to be. And this then becomes a negative to us.

I dated a girl a few years back, who was cute, sweet, nurturing. Shortly after we became physically involved, she had some ideas that really did not appeal to my image of who I wanted her to be. Someone else would have loved these things.

[Jeffree]

What I am saying is that I don't know if I have ever heard someone say, "Oh my God, he/she is even better than I ever imagined" and that the person gets even better after that all over again.

It seems like we always start off great, and if we're stupendously lucky it stays relatively that great way. Should anything change thereafter, it's almost always for the worst, unfortunately.

I think that's why so many people wind up here.

They thought they were dealing with one type of person who turned out to be a whole 'nutha type of person. They showed us one face while there was a whole different face doing all kinds of different things elsewhere.

Thus, I doubt just about anyone would be given the characteristic description of a pwBPD upfront and say, "Sign me up for that!" Instead, we got bamboozled or bamboozled ourselves and that can be very hard to accept, especially if it was premeditated.

J

[enlighten me]

At first I thought that radical acceptance was a bit of a Christian concept like forgiveness. I now see it as accepting that my ex is who she is and will do what she does and theres nothing anyone can do to change that. Gone is my belief that if I just tried hard enough I could help/ change her.  I also accept the fact that were not a good match.

[JNChell]

In a nutshell, RA is the here and now. Make a choice to take it or leave it, or just let it be what it is. To let the here and now flow over us? The same concept as sitting with our feelings?

[JNChell]

Expecting her to be who I thought she should be is a fine line. I didn’t have expectations of her returning to the girl that I met. I wondered where she went, and what I did to cause her to recoil. I don’t feel this way anymore, just venting. Just trying to make sense. You know, I pushed awful hard to get that person back. The harder I pushed, the more I realized, and the further she withdrew.

There is no real future in a relationship when dialogue, problem solving and resolution attempts actually cause intense conflicts. There is only self loss. Once that happens, we’re in a danger zone.

[Mustbeabetterway]

Hi JNChell,  this is a worthwhile topic.   Thanks for posting.  I was reading about distress toleration because when situations make me feel anxious, I often want an immediate relief From the uncomfortable feelings.  I may tell myself that I can’t stand it anymore.  When in reality, if I just wait it out, surprisingly the discomfort passes and I feel better for having successfully tolerated those feelings.

So I have been trying to tolerate temporary discomfort instead of avoiding it or scrambling to make it stop.  One tool for this is radical acceptance of what is.  Like others have said, it’s accepting reality without feeling like it must change for me to be okay.  If a person cannot accept what is, then she/he will be constantly fighting reality. 

It doesn’t mean that you approve of what is distressing you.  Not accepting is trying to exert your will over something that is not yours to change.  It’s like the Serenity prayer - God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference.

Mustbe

[SlyQQ]

not really sure what you are asking you don't seem to have any problem radically accepting. It seems you are on top of that , its what you are going to do about it that seems the dilemma.

[heartandwhole]

In a nutshell, RA is the here and now. Make a choice to take it or leave it, or just let it be what it is.

Have you noticed that "taking it or leaving it" doesn't negate the fact that it IS?

What is, is. It's done and we don't have a choice to make it not be what it is. Do we fight what is and suffer, or do we accept what is and respond?

There's a saying: Pain + Resistance = Suffering

Great discussion. 

heartandwhole