Really Struggling..

[MaroonLiquid]

So my uBPDexWife and I have not communicated in five days.  It’s almost like a standoff.  After the crap I’ve gone through and her telling me she is seeing someone (even though I think it’s a lie), I don’t want to look weak anymore.  I really want to talk to her and having a rough time with this.  I need some encouragement.  Thoughts?

Also, Formflier, can you link the thread with the letter you wrote.  I can’t find it.  Thanks!

[formflier]

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=315549.0

[formflier]

ML,

"I don't want to look weak because... .?"

You goal of remaining strong is?

What does "victory" look like?

What else is going on in your life?  How is school going? (I just finished my first two MBA classes... .dude... .my brain is fried... but I seem to be doing well)

How is your relationship with church?  God?  Are you in a mens group?

Are there other women you have gone out with?  Want to go out with?

(Basically trying to succinctly get a peek at where the r/s with your ex is... .in the context of your life.)

FF

[Lucky Jim]

Hey MaroonLiquid, What is it that you would like to discuss w/her?  I assume that the two of you are no longer married as you refer to her as your exW.  If so, I am uncertain what brings you to the "Conflicted" Board?  Are you hoping for a recycle?  Fill us in, when you can.

LuckyJim

[MaroonLiquid]

ML,

"I don't want to look weak because... .?"

You goal of remaining strong is?

What does "victory" look like?

What else is going on in your life?  How is school going? (I just finished my first two MBA classes... .dude... .my brain is fried... but I seem to be doing well)

How is your relationship with church?  God?  Are you in a mens group?

Are there other women you have gone out with?  Want to go out with?

(Basically trying to succinctly get a peek at where the r/s with your ex is... .in the context of your life.)

FF

Hey FF... .I know my post was rather vague.  Here goes... .

We were in a recycle and actually doing well.  She told me I’m the only person that has ever truly been there for her and how much she appreciated that.  Then out of the blue after two weeks, she told me there was a guy “she was interested in” but wanted to still be really good friends.  I wasn’t sure if she was telling the truth or trying to bait me.  I stayed calm and told her that if that’s the case I’m taking a huge step back from her as I don’t want to be “just friends”.  She said she understood however I’m sure she thought I wasn’t serious.  When I left, she gave me a long hug and a passionate kiss.  That was two weeks ago.  I did text her the next day asking if I had an antibiotic that I forgot at her house and went and got it from her.  Since then, we have had texted once last Friday to I let her know that a mutual friend had passed away.  We texted for just a few minutes and it was pleasant.  I truly am trying to stick to this boundary.  I don’t want to look weak because I’m usually the one in the past to contact first or move the “goalposts” so to speak.  She also usually texts me when she feels like I’m pulling away.  That’s usually after about a week to a week and a half.  As far as a victory, it’s more about me staying strong and showing her that my boundaries do mean something.  It’s also about not being a backup plan for someone.  I don’t deserve that.  She needs to feel the reality of me not being there and what that looks like.

As far as school, I am still taking classes and working toward my degree. 

I’m not in church at the moment.  I do feel some guilt there but I’m also finding it hard to go.  I feel like a failure, mad, etc and those are my issues to work through. 

As far as other women, I am having a hard time doing that honestly.  I’m still working through feelings with my exW and don’t think it’s fair to them until I can do this.  I also feel I’m holding out hope for a r/s and so I don’t want to move on.  I guess I’m stupid.    Just being honest.  Really trying to work through that as well. 

Does this answer your questions?

[MaroonLiquid]

One more thing that I forgot to mention.  I am really trying to focus on my three kids and have been for a while.  I still coach Softball for my girls and coach baseball for my son as well.  I have limited contact with her three kids as well but they aren’t a main focus for me as that is their mother.  I know they love me.

[formflier]

Hey man... .thanks for being open.

Here is my take... .with my knowledge of your relationship and BPD in general.  She (or BPD) is playing you.

The divorce was just a tactic to toy with you.  Mentioning the other guy was a tactic.  She "gets something" from that.  Yep... all that is vague.  But it plays to the BPD narrative.

I'm not suggesting she "thought all this out" in a sociopathic way.  Its' more a dysfunctional BPDish thing.

I could be wrong... .so please think through the value you place on my judgment.

You are not being stupid... .you are following your heart.  She is trampling on your heart.  It's your heart.  She is not going to protect it

I know you have a religious background, so... .please go read proverbs about "protecting your heart".  Who does the Bible say is responsible for protecting your heart?

What is the benefit of protecting your heart... .according to the Bible.

Serious... .very important that you understand that... .clearly.

I'm going to push pause before I give you any more recommendations...

Your thoughts up to this point?

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

Hey man... .thanks for being open.

Here is my take... .with my knowledge of your relationship and BPD in general.  She (or BPD) is playing you.

The divorce was just a tactic to toy with you.  Mentioning the other guy was a tactic.  She "gets something" from that.  Yep... all that is vague.  But it plays to the BPD narrative.

I'm not suggesting she "thought all this out" in a sociopathic way.  Its' more a dysfunctional BPDish thing.

I could be wrong... .so please think through the value you place on my judgment.

You are not being stupid... .you are following your heart.  She is trampling on your heart.  It's your heart.  She is not going to protect it

I know you have a religious background, so... .please go read proverbs about "protecting your heart".  Who does the Bible say is responsible for protecting your heart?

What is the benefit of protecting your heart... .according to the Bible.

Serious... .very important that you understand that... .clearly.

I'm going to push pause before I give you any more recommendations...

Your thoughts up to this point?

FF

You aren’t the first person who told me that these are tactics that’s she is using.  I believe that.  For what, I have no idea except to see how far she can push me or whatever.  I don’t think it’s sociopathic either.  I know what she tells me in our private time together and have always felt she was truthful when she said those things and also know the push/pull dynamic and how that works as well.  I do need to do a much better job of protecting my heart and that’s another reason I’m pulling back.  I don’t want to be a doormat any longer.  Also, protecting my heart allows me to hear gods voice more clearly. 

[formflier]

The scripture says that "All" things flow from your heart.

All... .

That's a lot.

Listen man... .this is the relationship she is offering.  Period.

So... .either get happy with that and occasionally get laid and have times that "seem" intimate and truthful and be ready to have another life when she discards you... again... .and again.

If you choose to continue, you will have to find a way to "harden" your heart to protect it.  She will continue to trample on it.  Please believe that

or

What would "all" things flowing from your heart look like if you had no relationship with a woman... .or a healthy relationship.

"All things"... .

that would include your parenting... .right?

Big picture:  She has shown you what she has to offer.

What are you going to do about that?

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

The scripture says that "All" things flow from your heart.

All... .

That's a lot.

Listen man... .this is the relationship she is offering.  Period.

So... .either get happy with that and occasionally get laid and have times that "seem" intimate and truthful and be ready to have another life when she discards you... again... .and again.

If you choose to continue, you will have to find a way to "harden" your heart to protect it.  She will continue to trample on it.  Please believe that

or

What would "all" things flowing from your heart look like if you had no relationship with a woman... .or a healthy relationship.

"All things"... .

that would include your parenting... .right?

Big picture:  She has shown you what she has to offer.

What are you going to do about that?

FF

Gee FF... .I always look forward to your honest and brutal feedback on things.  
Just kidding.  I do appreciate it.  Part of me is fearful in letting her go completely and that’s my own abandonment issues I need to deal with.  That part of me also would accept crumbs.  I know this seems sad to be truthful about, but I’m trying to deal with my feelings and fears.  If I let her go I am scared I may be alone the rest of my life.  The sad thing is I’m a decent looking guy who is a good person so I don’t know what I’m scared of.  I don’t know why I continue to hold out hope that she’ll change.  Oh well.  I’ll get through it.  Also, a part of me does look forward to communication just because I know sex is coming.  Sad, but true.

[formflier]

Hey... .listen.  Have you asked anyone else out on a date, coffee, talk... whatever?

I don't think you should wait until you feel ready or think you are over your ex.

I DO think that you should be upfront and honest about where you are in "looking" for a relationship.  So... after a date or two, let them know that you enjoy their company and are sorting yourself out from a divorce.  Don't over explain.

Once you actually have a couple dates and actually have a good time and... .perhaps... .actually get laid from a woman that is ok with a casual relationship... .I think the world may look a lot different to you.

I think your old relationship may look different to you. 

Note... .if you go down this path, I would never discuss it with your ex.  That's an intimate part  of your life.  Lots of feelings... .  Has she earned your trust to share that part of your life?

FF

[Notwendy]

ML, just my two cents here, but being in limbo is stressful.

You are divorced and yet, still sleeping with your ex.

I'm not being critical of two consenting adults- who can choose to do what they want to do- but can you handle this emotionally? Is it good for you? Or is it making it more difficult to move on with your life?

Sex is a lot of things, but it is also emotionally binding at times. IMHO, it is hard to move on, and recover from an emotional bond when there is still physical intimacy.

There is much talk about safe sex in terms of pregnancy and STD's. But sex is not safe when it comes to emotions. I would think it would be tough to continue to have sex with an ex that you deeply love and not have that keep you attached.

The push pull, on /off of a relationship can also mimic a drug. Highs and lows.

I think you are being honest with yourself on two important things: you are willing to take crumbs, and are afraid to be alone. These are two aspects of yourself that are your part in this. It is great that you see this, because if something is about you- you have the ability to work at change with this. You can not change her, but you can change this part of yourself. It may not be easy- it does take some work, but it is possible.

IMHO, I would wait to start dating until addressing these two issues. Dating out of fear of being alone, or when willing to take crumbs can possibly lead you into a relationship that gives you crumbs. It is also difficult to be emotionally present on a date when your feelings are attached to someone else. Meeting people, being friends - sure, but I have read that going from one relationship to another without some emotional healing first is not a good idea.

Most of us don't want to be alone. Yet, it can be possible to be content with being single. That's a great place to start when meeting others- content - as you don't need someone to soothe your being alone but can be with someone without that fear.

I don't know what you will choose to do, but IMHO, if you choose to move on, I think not being physical with your ex can help keep your feelings clearer.

[formflier]

but being in limbo is stressful.

Perhaps examine how you have dated in the past.  I had lots of first and second dates.  Was pretty much fearless asking girls out.  So... .I got shot down a lot and went on lots of dates.  I'm an extrovert.  I found people (girls in particular) fascinating. 

So... it took a while for me to form emotional attachments (I did have several serious relationships) but honestly I didn't seek those out.  There were also times that I realized "I was on the rebound" and would do stuff with girls but was clear in my head that I would not proceed further for a while.  I was also clear with them.

So... .I would think along those lines when deciding to date or not.  If you can't "casually date"... then I wouldn't recommend it for a while. 

Frankly, part of why I recommend this to you is that I don't think you will have much problem getting a date, with any sort of reasonable effort. 

Let a couple months pass with having a few different dates with a few different women... .and I think lots of your "fear of being alone" will subside to a manageable level.

But... .there is a moral thing here to.  Don't present yourself as "ready" for a deep relationship... .because you are clearly not.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I like both what formflier and Notwendy have said.

I agree with formflier that it would be a good idea to ask out women for coffee dates or something not serious. Also acknowledging that you are going through a difficult phase might be helpful. I think women might be very interested in hearing some details about your situation with your ex.

So many men are unwilling to speak openly and honestly about their feelings and I find it really refreshing when they do. Your situation is not an uncommon one. So many of us have found ourselves in limbo about an ex. Sharing that with a woman friend (and as long as you keep her as a "friend" and nothing more until you feel resolved about your relationship with your ex)--I think that would be a way to "separate the wheat from the chaff." You will learn more about this new friend and be able to see (without dipping your toe in the water, so to speak) whether she might be a suitable romantic partner someday.

And many women will understand. The right one will be willing to wait it out until you feel "done" with your previous relationship.

The question is: do you want to be done?

[MaroonLiquid]

Do I want to be done?... .

The short answer is yes and no.   

I need to be done with the “crazy-making” dysfunction and move forward in my life.  I don’t want the “push/pull” dynamic anymore either.  I know that I’m a good guy and deserve better than the abuse I’ve gotten. I can’t fix her.   I love her though and it’s hard to let go.  The fear I deal with of not having a r/s with her ever again is dwindling.  I’m facing that fear head on.  We haven’t spoken in 12 days.  I’m actually surprised she hasn’t tried considering she has always hated when I didn’t contact her.  I’m sure she expects me to break down first though.  That’s been the usual pattern.  I am done chasing as she knows I love her.  I need to be strong for myself and I’m focusing on many other things.  Really focusing on my biological children.  It’s helping... .

[Lucky Jim]

I’m a good guy and deserve better than the abuse I’ve gotten. I can’t fix her. 

Like what you're saying there, MaroonLiquid.  Suggest you return the focus to yourself, and to your biological children.  Be kind and compassionate to yourself.  What is the best path for you?  What would you like to see happen?  What are your gut feelings?  These are tough questions, I know, but might help you to find your way.

LuckyJim

[Sunfl0wer]

I love her though and it’s hard to let go.  The fear I deal with of not having a r/s with her ever again is dwindling

Thinking... .you can continue to love her.  No need to stop.

Your fear... of not having a r/s, I am curious about.
Via behavior, she is communicating to you the relationship she is available for for you.  Are you afraid of loosing this? 
Or are you afraid of releasing yourself from hoping for what you do not have?

[formflier]

The less you can make it about a power struggle between the two of you... .who is going to cave in first... the better it will go for you.

Let her think about it... however she wants to think about it.

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

The less you can make it about a power struggle between the two of you... .who is going to cave in first... the better it will go for you.

Let her think about it... however she wants to think about it.

FF

I'm going to answer all the questions later this evening as I'm about to go into a school function for my daughter.  But FF, what did you mean by this?

[formflier]

 
You mentioned that you analyzed it as a power struggle... .so... it's in your mind.

It may or may not be in her mind.  Let her figure that out... .I'm less concerned about her mind.

More concerned about yours.

Don't make it a power struggle... .live your life... a healthy life... .if she is there... .she is... .

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

Be kind and compassionate to yourself.  What is the best path for you?  What would you like to see happen?  What are your gut feelings?  These are tough questions, I know, but might help you to find your way.

LuckyJim

Im trying to be kind to myself.  :)oing a pretty good job this time I think.  The best path for me is to move forward with my life regardless of her.  My gut feeling is there isn’t anyone else like she claimed and when I said I was taking a huge step back, she lied and backed herself into a corner.  I believe she thought I would beg her not to or become clingy and I didn’t.  I was very proud of myself.

Thinking... .you can continue to love her.  No need to stop.

No plans to.  She does need to know that I have boundaries and when I say something I mean it.  Especially when it comes to taking a step back because she is “interested in someone else” regardless what the truth is.

Your fear... of not having a r/s, I am curious about.
Via behavior, she is communicating to you the relationship she is available for for you.  Are you afraid of loosing this?  
Or are you afraid of releasing yourself from hoping for what you do not have?

I’ve been afraid of letting her go and not having any r/s.  Especially from the one of hoping what I do not have.  I am much better about it now because I’ve really gained strength over that fear.  It’s becoming less of an issue.  But it still is there in a minor thought process of that makes sense.

You mentioned that you analyzed it as a power struggle... .so... it's in your mind.

It may or may not be in her mind.  Let her figure that out... .I'm less concerned about her mind.

More concerned about yours.

Don't make it a power struggle... .live your life... a healthy life... .if she is there... .she is... .

FF

Gotcha.  Makes sense.  I am definitely living my life and like not dealing with some of the drama. 

[formflier]

You know me... I'm a words guy.  Words give you attitude and thinking "nudges" in the right direction.

I would suggest instead of doing boundaries so she "knows" things... .you should do boundaries to protect yourself... ."protect your heart".

She may "know" at the end of that experience that you have a pink elephant in your bedroom that you are attracted to... .or that you want to eat cheese grits for all three meals.  (note... .this is actually a good and sometimes satisfying thing... . )

It's not about what she knows... .

Reflect on the difference for a while... .let me know what you think...

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

You know me... I'm a words guy.  Words give you attitude and thinking "nudges" in the right direction.

I would suggest instead of doing boundaries so she "knows" things... .you should do boundaries to protect yourself... ."protect your heart".

She may "know" at the end of that experience that you have a pink elephant in your bedroom that you are attracted to... .or that you want to eat cheese grits for all three meals.  (note... .this is actually a good and sometimes satisfying thing... . )

It's not about what she knows... .

Reflect on the difference for a while... .let me know what you think...

FF

I’m honestly trying to do that.  I am focused less on what she “knows” even though I still want her to learn things.      It’s hard to focus on my needs when I have never really done that before.  Hard habit to break.  Taking this day by day trying to sit with my feelings and fears and feel that I am doing a much better job than I used to. 

[formflier]

A good T will help you with your "selfish meter".  I really don't want to  be a selfish guy... .however... I, like most others on these boards need to do a much better job of taking care of themselves.  

Honestly, when I "feel" that I am being selfish, I'm likely doing a pretty good job of taking care of myself.

Try that on for size.

Switching gears.

Seriously dude... .go out on a couple coffee dates.  Casual... . I would challenge you to keep it light on first date... or two... .have good boundaries... .don't get deep in old relationship stuff.  Focus on each other... .

If intimacy develops, then details and "secrets" can come out.  Somehow, I think most of use had that kind of backwards too.  We saw "quick intimacy" as a good sign.  Likely it is a red flag.  Not a fatal one... .always... but a red flag.  

One red flag... .no biggee.  If someone has several... but they are all someone else's fault... .RUN!

FF

[Grey Kitty]

ML, you sound all over the place about your ex and dating, and that is really understandable.

Q1: What do you want from your ex?  (And is your heart longing for something more than that?)

Q2: Of the things you do want, can she provide them?

Q3: (Presuming an answer to Q2 that I've read from your history... .) Which of these things that she provides in a on/off push/pull way work for you that way?

[MaroonLiquid]

ML, you sound all over the place about your ex and dating, and that is really understandable.

Q1: What do you want from your ex?  (And is your heart longing for something more than that?)

Q2: Of the things you do want, can she provide them?

Q3: (Presuming an answer to Q2 that I've read from your history... .) Which of these things that she provides in a on/off push/pull way work for you that way?

Q1:  I love spending time with my ex.  I miss the intimacy and I don’t just mean sex.  Is my heart longing for more than that?  Still yes, but I’m a lot more realistic.  I’m also trying to work through that I need to focus on myself and move myself forward even if she doesn’t follow.  I’m really trying to do better.

Q2: can she provide them?  When she isn’t pushing me away.   

Q3: that’s a great question.   

Right now, I’m trying to face my emotions head on and it’s tough.  I’m staying strong by sticking to my boundary by not contacting her and I’m proud of myself.

[formflier]

ML,

If I asked you to answer Grey Kitty's questions with a yes or a no... .could you... .would you?

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Q2: can she provide them?  When she isn’t pushing me away.   

Q3: that’s a great question.   

I thought you would get a bit of that from Q1/Q2... .radical acceptance of who she is... .she CAN provide many things you want, like, love... .but she can only do it in an on-and-off, push-pull fashion.

And yes, Q3 is a great question. Also a hard question. I suspect that thinking about it is far more important than a yes/no answer.

Perhaps it is 'worth it' for now but not longer-term. It could be a way to stay in the lives of her daughters until they become young adults and have the power to make the choice for themselves (without being overruled by your ex) on how much contact to have with you. I'm sure that there are other reasons to say it is 'good enough for now'. (As a few friends of mine have said... .repeatedly while describing messed up women they were involved with... ."well, the sex was really good "

Right now, I’m trying to face my emotions head on and it’s tough.  I’m staying strong by sticking to my boundary by not contacting her and I’m proud of myself.

Boundaries are to protect yourself, not to punish her. How are you protecting yourself from by not contacting her?

Anyhow, stay strong, and take good care of yourself. 

[MaroonLiquid]

I thought you would get a bit of that from Q1/Q2... .radical acceptance of who she is... .she CAN provide many things you want, like, love... .but she can only do it in an on-and-off, push-pull fashion.

And yes, Q3 is a great question. Also a hard question. I suspect that thinking about it is far more important than a yes/no answer.

Perhaps it is 'worth it' for now but not longer-term. It could be a way to stay in the lives of her daughters until they become young adults and have the power to make the choice for themselves (without being overruled by your ex) on how much contact to have with you. I'm sure that there are other reasons to say it is 'good enough for now'. (As a few friends of mine have said... .repeatedly while describing messed up women they were involved with... ."well, the sex was really good "

Boundaries are to protect yourself, not to punish her. How are you protecting yourself from by not contacting her?

Anyhow, stay strong, and take good care of yourself. 

The sex is always really good!   

Anyway, my boundary isn’t really about her.  It is to protect me.  I told her I was taking a big step back because there was “someone else” according to her.  Even if there isn’t, that is my line and I was drawing it with her.  In the past, I drew a lot of lines and moved them.  Honestly, our r/s had gotten to the point where she pulls me back in to “get something from me” and then discards me.  It was also to the point where we would have sex and then a day or two after she would discard me.  It was to the point where I was feeling used.  I’m trying to break that cycle.  Not for her, for me.  I’m trying to rebuild my dignity and self-respect.  It’s hard because in a way (and I know it’s my own unhealthiness), I feel like I’m abandoning her.  That’s hard for me because I care for her very deeply and she said I’m the only person that has always been there for her.  I’m really surprised that after 15 days she hasn’t tried to contact me.  This is the second longest time this has happened.  The longest was almost a month.  Usually it’s less than a week.  Oh well.  I miss her but it’s getting better.

[formflier]

I would still push for a yes or no answer.  I do realize that "yes, but... ." or "no, but... "... .that there is lots of stuff that matters in the "but" part.

I would be supportive of a continued relationship of some sort if the answer was "no"... .however I would push hard for you to take deliberate steps to "keep yourself healthy" and open to other relationships.

Proud of you for holding your boundary... .

FF