He called.to apologize: "I don't want to be that person."

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

I feel like I have entered the twilight zone. More so than I was at the end of my relationship where my partner had gone full-blown schizo.

Two days ago, on Tuesday, I had to go to my ex's and my previous shared home to discuss some important and unavoidable practical matters. Here's a recap of that visit from another thread:

That was rough, but unavoidable. We have some important documentation that we need to work on together, and while he DID reluctantly cooperate with it, he used the time that he knew I was a captive audience to tell me over and over again that I was a psychopath, and vast and sundry other horrific insults. Keeping him on task was... .difficult. He just wanted to insult and provoke me. I was surprised at how dysregulated and angry he still is even after I moved out 3.5 months ago (at his demand) and haven't said a harsh or argumentative word to him since. I actually don't get it. He has gotten WORSE.

Among the things he said to me in the hour I was at his home:

1.) I am a psychopath.
2.) I fled the U.S. to Europe because I am fleeing my serial killer past. (He used to think I just worked for the CIA. I've been demoted, apparently.)
3.) He no longer calls me by my name now, but "J.D.". For Jeffrey Dahmer.     
4.) Initially, he started calling me "T.B." (for Ted Bundy). But when I thought that meant "tuberculosis" he switched it to J.D. for clarity.
5.) My ex-husband does not exist. I made him up.
6.) My parents do not exist. I made them up.
7.) I don't really have a sister. I made her up. She's a serial killer, and my alter ego, therefore... .me.
8.) I never loved him, I just wanted to do experiments on him.
9.) He was afraid to be alone with me, because I might stab him dead.
10.) He will never date again, because I have destroyed him for all women. I have destroyed him completely. He will never love again, because I destroyed that in him. (This was legitimately the only one that made me sad, but I know I can't take all the blame for that.)
11.) All of my personal effects were exactly where I left them 3.5 months ago. The ones I did not take with me. It looks like I never left. Even my favorite throw blanket is in the spot I left it in mid-June. I didn't even open that can of worms, and just said nothing.

After that visit, and totally defeated and thinking that he may never normalize in any kind of way, I sent a message, very brief, saying this:

"I'm sorry you felt I didn't listen to you, and made you feel invalidated. I know that must have hurt you. I have had months to step back and re-evaluate things from an outside perspective, and I understand a lot more now. You needed something different from me and I had no idea how to provide it. I own 100% of my 50% of our relationship. The good and the bad. There's nothing else I can say, other than that."

Today, at work, my phone sitting on my desk lit up. There was his face, smiling at me, a picture I took of him in happy times, and he was calling for the first time in 3.5 months. My office mate is one desk away. I very calmly (while infarcting on the inside) picked up and stepped out of the room into a meeting room and shut the door.

"Hello?"

And he said, normal, calm tone... .the guy I used to know. "Hi, [BD]. Are you working?" I said yes, but I could talk for a bit, what's up?

And he said, (paraphrased but almost word for word to the best of my ability),

"I'm sorry to bother you at work, so I will try to be brief. I just want to say I'm sorry for how I acted and especially the things I said to you the other night. I have been having a really hard time with everything and I have been feeling hurt and scared and I acted out in a bad way. I shouldn't have done that.

I have been angry and defensive and holding a grudge and I don't want to be that person. It's destroying me, and I have to do better than this. I know our relationship has ended and so much damage has been done, but I don't want us to be at odds with each other. I have been seeing you in such a bad light lately, and that's not fair. I know there is much more to you than that, and I am not being reasonable. I have been angry and hostile since you left, and you have been civil, even wishing me well. Don't think I don't realize that." (He realizes he's been splitting? Wow.)

My jaw hit the floor. Finally, I said "Thank you for calling to say this to me. I really appreciate it. It took a lot of courage, to reach out this way. I accept your apology, and I also apologize for not always handling things well either."

He asked what I was doing after work tomorrow, and I said "I'm not sure." He said, "I'm unblocking you from my phone - that was unnecessary, I'm sorry for that too. Please text me if you'd like to have Chinese food after work. (There's a place near our house we always used to go.) No pressure, no drama. It's not an attempt to "fix everything" and jump back in the fire. I'd just like to have a pleasant dinner, no alcohol, and be kind to one another, and start working toward some kind of peace, maybe be in the same restaurant without it having to be awkward. I don't want things to be like this, with the animosity. If you don't want to, I completely understand... .but I just want to say I'm sorry for how I have acted."

There was zero hostility or dysregulation. He sounded genuine. And sane. I know he's not cured (hahaha). But I haven't seen or heard that level of normalcy from him in six months. At least. Maybe ever. He has never acknowledged splitting or that it isn't reasonable. And he certainly hasn't apologized in a very very long time... .for anything.

I damn near soiled myself. 

WHAT. THE. F**K?

[BasementDweller]

I feel like I have entered the twilight zone. More so than I was at the end of my relationship where my partner had gone full-blown schizo.

Two days ago, on Tuesday, I had to go to my ex's and my previous shared home to discuss some important and unavoidable practical matters. Here's a recap of that visit from another thread:

That was rough, but unavoidable. We have some important documentation that we need to work on together, and while he DID reluctantly cooperate with it, he used the time that he knew I was a captive audience to tell me over and over again that I was a psychopath, and vast and sundry other horrific insults. Keeping him on task was... .difficult. He just wanted to insult and provoke me. I was surprised at how dysregulated and angry he still is even after I moved out 3.5 months ago (at his demand) and haven't said a harsh or argumentative word to him since. I actually don't get it. He has gotten WORSE.

Among the things he said to me in the hour I was at his home:

1.) I am a psychopath.
2.) I fled the U.S. to Europe because I am fleeing my serial killer past. (He used to think I just worked for the CIA. I've been demoted, apparently.)
3.) He no longer calls me by my name now, but "J.D.". For Jeffrey Dahmer.     
4.) Initially, he started calling me "T.B." (for Ted Bundy). But when I thought that meant "tuberculosis" he switched it to J.D. for clarity.
5.) My ex-husband does not exist. I made him up.
6.) My parents do not exist. I made them up.
7.) I don't really have a sister. I made her up. She's a serial killer, and my alter ego, therefore... .me.
8.) I never loved him, I just wanted to do experiments on him.
9.) He was afraid to be alone with me, because I might stab him dead.
10.) He will never date again, because I have destroyed him for all women. I have destroyed him completely. He will never love again, because I destroyed that in him. (This was legitimately the only one that made me sad, but I know I can't take all the blame for that.)
11.) All of my personal effects were exactly where I left them 3.5 months ago. The ones I did not take with me. It looks like I never left. Even my favorite throw blanket is in the spot I left it in mid-June. I didn't even open that can of worms, and just said nothing.

After that visit, and totally defeated and thinking that he may never normalize in any kind of way, I sent a message, very brief, saying this:

"I'm sorry you felt I didn't listen to you, and made you feel invalidated. I know that must have hurt you. I have had months to step back and re-evaluate things from an outside perspective, and I understand a lot more now. You needed something different from me and I had no idea how to provide it. I own 100% of my 50% of our relationship. The good and the bad. There's nothing else I can say, other than that."

Today, at work, my phone sitting on my desk lit up. There was his face, smiling at me, a picture I took of him in happy times, and he was calling for the first time in 3.5 months. My office mate is one desk away. I very calmly (while infarcting on the inside) picked up and stepped out of the room into a meeting room and shut the door.

"Hello?"

And he said, normal, calm tone... .the guy I used to know. "Hi, [BD]. Are you working?" I said yes, but I could talk for a bit, what's up?

And he said, (paraphrased but almost word for word to the best of my ability),

"I'm sorry to bother you at work, so I will try to be brief. I just want to say I'm sorry for how I acted and especially the things I said to you the other night. I have been having a really hard time with everything and I have been feeling hurt and scared and I acted out in a bad way. I shouldn't have done that.

I have been angry and defensive and holding a grudge and I don't want to be that person. It's destroying me, and I have to do better than this. I know our relationship has ended and so much damage has been done, but I don't want us to be at odds with each other. I have been seeing you in such a bad light lately, and that's not fair. I know there is much more to you than that, and I am not being reasonable. I have been angry and hostile since you left, and you have been civil, even wishing me well. Don't think I don't realize that." (He realizes he's been splitting? Wow.)

My jaw hit the floor. Finally, I said "Thank you for calling to say this to me. I really appreciate it. It took a lot of courage, to reach out this way. I accept your apology, and I also apologize for not always handling things well either."

He asked what I was doing after work tomorrow, and I said "I'm not sure." He said, "I'm unblocking you from my phone - that was unnecessary, I'm sorry for that too. Please text me if you'd like to have Chinese food after work. (There's a place near our house we always used to go.) No pressure, no drama. It's not an attempt to "fix everything" and jump back in the fire. I'd just like to have a pleasant dinner, no alcohol, and be kind to one another, and start working toward some kind of peace, maybe be in the same restaurant without it having to be awkward. I don't want things to be like this, with the animosity. If you don't want to, I completely understand... .but I just want to say I'm sorry for how I have acted."

There was zero hostility or dysregulation. He sounded genuine. And sane. I know he's not cured (hahaha). But I haven't seen or heard that level of normalcy from him in six months. At least. Maybe ever. He has never acknowledged splitting or that it isn't reasonable. And he certainly hasn't apologized in a very very long time... .for anything.

I damn near soiled myself. 

WHAT. THE. F**K?

[Cromwell]

Please text me if you'd like to have Chinese food after work.

Well BasementDweller, thats your cover blown, CIA though? I thought a different agency. Remember your training though; deny and disavowal all knowledge of the mission .

Ive done my iin depth psychoanalysis on it all and highlighted the problem underlying the fantastic machinations.

guess that old saying was right all along, the way to a mans heart truly is via the stomach.

I think taking your cookery books back caused this catacylism.

[BasementDweller]

Haha! And this is just "the dive Chinese place"... .My ACTUAL cooking was what really hit home for him... .but baby steps. He's at least suggesting to eat in the same room as me. And a public meeting is manageable. He's far less likely to act out, but I genuinely think, at least this time, he won't.

I am starting to wonder if he is making some progress in therapy. Maybe he's on meds? I can't be sure. I can't picture him consenting to meds, but maybe he learned to recognize splitting after talking to his T? I know sometimes a pwBPD will suck up a bit once the smoke clears, because they do miss you or at least some supply you give them. But he sounded pretty humble and insightful, and that really is unexpected and unusual for him.

I wonder if I'd set us back any if I showed up wearing this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/BOARDRIPPAZ-JEFFREY-DAHMER-CHARLES-SERIENM%C3%96RDER/dp/B01MSB6W8J

Or perhaps, THIS:
https://www.google.com/search?q=jeffrey+dahmer+t+shirt&client=firefox-b-ab&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=2aqInFaH-ar_GM%253A%252CEcDaWUfDhLcJ7M%252C_&usg=AI4_-kQ9eP2SoL5CU165LnnKaDgRQ0ztOA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwimt6CiyOzdAhVCjywKHW5XDlcQ9QEwCHoECAYQFA#imgrc=VRZv1_6gQE6FLM:

[Toohurt]

Hi Basementdweller,

I was in pretty much the same shock this time last week when my ex texted me saying that he was sorry for all the hurt he caused me unintentionally and how he’d never dreamed that things would go this wrong. He said he felt there were two identities in his mind lately, and he keeps switching back and forth ‘leaving the earth’ for a bit.
It made me howl in agony, reading this, and the tears just wouldn’t stop.
Yesterday however I received a cold phone call saying he now sees me for who I am, the cause and sole reason for all the torture he’s been through and that even though I can contact him if I  need to, something in his brain has switched off and he will never see me the same way again. (I’ve been split innumerable times before)
Agony, yet again.
That’s the tragedy of their situation, accepting that they aren’t capable of being empathetic or reasonable unless they’re trying really hard to change themselves. Their apologies also fail to really bring any closure.

[BasementDweller]

Hi, toohurt! 

I'm sorry you had to experience this... .it must have been so hard to start feeling optimistic, then have it all come crashing down again. 

Yes, I know my ex is also unpredictable and this apology doesn't mean he won't split again. I'm sure he will someday. Maybe soon. I think what shocked me is that this is the most reasonable I have ever heard him sound, even BEFORE things really went foul between us. It showed an awareness that he has never really expressed before.

I am aware it will always be a roller coaster ride with him. I'm treading lightly. I will meet for dinner and do gray rock/medium chill for the most part. He and I still live in the same part of town and he has two kids whom I was quite close to, and they are great boys. The more civility we have between us, the better, as us all running into each other at the local shops is inevitable. One thing I know, (despite how emotionally unstable he might be) that motivates him to be better, is his sons. They are teenagers and they look up to him. They liked me. They were home when we met on Tuesday, but stayed out of the room so we could talk. I don't think he wants them to see him being someone they cannot admire. If anything, he may make a genuine attempt at getting well for them. I hope so. He might be a mess when it comes to relationships with women but he is a very good father who loves his children to the moon and back. That might be part of why I still see good in him.

[1stTimer]

Hi Basementdweller, that is pretty amazing. Almost a wet-dream of what you/we would love to hear from our pwBPDs. You seem really centered even before that though, I particularly am impressed how you did not get triggered and your very wise "I own 100% of my 50% of our relationship". That is a big thing to tell someone and own; it sucks when people blame 50% of their 50% on the other person (or as with many BPD 100% of 100%). Anyway it sounds to me like a lot of his regulating back had to do with how you handled and even validated him.

I guess you also get from toohurt that it could cycle back at anytime but you seem to have your head around even that.

I have to say this thread for the first time gave me a lot of sympathy for what pwBPD even "mine" live with. What it reminded me most of all was when my father was in the middle stages of dementia and was still lucid. He'd be discussing something then stop and not remember anything about it. I told him once "That's ok Dad just take your time I'm listening" and he got tears in his eyes and said "Son, you have no idea... ." and walked away. I know Demenita and BPD are unrelated but in both cases not only does something not exist in your mind anymore you know it does not. And when it is back you know that it could disappear at any moment. And you have no control. So I'm thinking it must be terrible for a person to care about you and know that at any moment they wont' even remember feeling that and will only remember you as bad.  I hate just being mad at someone I love and accept that I will at times be. I can't imagine knowing that I will not be able to look at someone I love with a shred of love and just hate/disgust and have no control over that. I almost feel like I would want to, when they were in the place he was with you, hold them and tell them that you will always know they feel this way even when they 'don't' and forgive them for what they do or say when they don't because you know *this* is how they feel. Give them the space to come back to you safely is I guess what I am saying and yourself the space to be safe when they are not.

[Enabler]

Hey BD, lovely yet weird phone call to receive. Confusing as well I guess.

So, in mental preparation for the meal, all good reasons to be do cordial aside, what do you want from this meal? Zero objectives is fine, as it comes is fine, go with the flow is fine... .BUT, this is a man you have gone to great lengths to physically and emotionally distance yourself with and now you would have seen him twice in a few weeks. The last time you saw him he was angry and abusive towards you.

[Skip]

I will meet for dinner and do gray rock/medium chill for the most part. He and I still live in the same part of town and he has two kids whom I was quite close to, and they are great boys. The more civility we have between us, the better, as us all running into each other at the local shops is inevitable. One thing I know, (despite how emotionally unstable he might be) that motivates him to be better, is his sons. They are teenagers and they look up to him. They liked me.

"Gray rock" (passive aggressiveness) or medium chill (which started on this iste) are not a great tools.  I wound encourage you to find an authentic and calm mind space for dealing with him.

It's a subtle difference - the biggest part being to let go of the resentment/triggers (there are many) and focus on being a really nice amicable ex... .which you can build around the theme of "how do we do this best for the boys".

He likely has an expectation of reconnecting - there have been many recycles - you night to stay away from that.

It sounds like there has been some serious mental illness in this relationship and it will cycle through again - now is the time to set the parameters that will help you best navigare if things get hard again.

Question. Why are you meeting? Are you cautiously (very cautiously) testing the water?

[BasementDweller]

So I'm thinking it must be terrible for a person to care about you and know that at any moment they wont' even remember feeling that and will only remember you as bad.  I hate just being mad at someone I love and accept that I will at times be. I can't imagine knowing that I will not be able to look at someone I love with a shred of love and just hate/disgust and have no control over that. I almost feel like I would want to, when they were in the place he was with you, hold them and tell them that you will always know they feel this way even when they 'don't' and forgive them for what they do or say when they don't because you know *this* is how they feel. Give them the space to come back to you safely is I guess what I am saying and yourself the space to be safe when they are not.

Exactly this, 1stTimer. This is one of the things that was (of course) a huge monkey wrench in our relationship. Not only that he did this, but that I couldn't wrap my head around it. I had no idea what to do when he split like that, and I guess for a while I did everything wrong.

This last visit, he was splitting bad, and I totally recognized it. I also anticipated it and fully understood it this time. This was the first time that I was to come to our prior shared home in the 3.5 months since I moved out. It's now just "his home"... .but we did so much work on it together, and it still looks very much like I am still there. I know this visit terrified him. Of course it would. All the pent up feelings, seeing me face to face in the home he drove me out of, the fact that he both loves and hates me. I think he needed something to convince him that there was a good reason I was gone. I am a bad person and he's happier without me. Except it's not true. I saw the pain and struggle when he lashed out at me, and instead of reacting I just listened. I knew it wasn't true. I knew he was just struggling.

Within two days, he brought himself around, and worked himself through it. And called to apologize. That's a first. Maybe he's making progress in therapy, maybe he saw that I did not lash out back at him, and I let him vent. Maybe it's a combination of things. I don't know, but I was happy to see that he understood and corrected his own behavior.

Hey BD, lovely yet weird phone call to receive. Confusing as well I guess.

So, in mental preparation for the meal, all good reasons to be do cordial aside, what do you want from this meal? Zero objectives is fine, as it comes is fine, go with the flow is fine... .BUT, this is a man you have gone to great lengths to physically and emotionally distance yourself with and now you would have seen him twice in a few weeks. The last time you saw him he was angry and abusive towards you.

Hi, Enabler!  Good to hear from you. I touched on the aspect of his last abusive tirade in my response to 1stTimer. I'll say that I am finding that the less I am affected/offended/hurt by his abuse... .the less it feels like abuse and the more it looks and feels like a struggling person in pain. I no longer take his insults personally. (And if you look at them, really, how could I?) I let him get the rant out of his system this time, and he came around on his own.

I had put distance between us because I did not want to quarrel with him. I know now, I don't have to. No matter what he says or does. I don't have to participate. (It took me a while to understand that. A little too late to really make any improvement in our relationship, but maybe we can salvage a civil friendship.)

Truth be known, I don't want there to be distance between us. Maybe some, but not complete. As things are now, with the wound still fresh and him having a long way to go to be in a healthy head-space (if he ever gets there) I would not rekindle a romantic relationship. I would, however, like to be something akin to friends and at least comfortable with each other. According to him, that is his goal with this dinner at the Chinese place, and I agree with that, and am very ok with it.

"Gray rock" (passive aggressiveness) or medium chill (which started on this iste) are not a great tools.  I wound encourage you to find an authentic and calm mind space for dealing with him.

It's a subtle difference - the biggest part being to let go of the resentment/triggers (there are many) and focus on being a really nice amicable ex... .which you can build around the theme of "how do we do this best for the boys".

He likely has an expectation of reconnecting - there have been many recycles - you night to stay away from that.

It sounds like there has been some serious mental illness in this relationship and it will cycle through again - now is the time to set the parameters that will help you best navigare if things get hard again.

Question. Why are you meeting? Are you cautiously (very cautiously) testing the water?

Hi, Skip! 

Good suggestions... .I didn't realize "gray rock" was passive aggressiveness... .I thought it was just a way to stay neutral and not engage in arguments. But I like your suggestion to be amicable and friendly and not as stone-cold impersonal. I would prefer that too, and will approach the meeting like that. I guess if I am too neutral he may pick up on it as a defense mechanism, and that will also possibly put him on the defense.

I don't see him wanting to recycle. He's very clear on that. He has stated multiple times there is no fixing this relationship, and even when he is trying to be peaceful he still says I hurt him so badly he can never go back to that. That was never my intent, but I understand that's how he feels, and I have to respect that... .and, as I said to Enabler, the wound is still too fresh, and he is still too unstable. Maybe he always will be. I don't want to go back to that either, and I think he wants me back even less than I want him back. There are times when he really seems to hate me.

You are right there is serious mental illness there, and it runs in his whole family. It's an extremely difficult situation. But I mentioned above why I want to see him. I do miss the part of him that was my friend. That cool, funny, weird guy I used to talk and laugh with about all manner of bizarre sh!t. The guy he is when he's not losing his mind over a romantic relationship. I still care about him as a person, even if the romantic aspect of our relationship went toxic. I want us to be civil and kind to each other and set a good example for the kids, since we do still live in the same part of town and our paths will cross. If this is possible, I am willing to do my part.

Most importantly and unavoidable - I have to meet with him regarding legal issues. (Nothing bad between us, like courts, police, anything like that.) It's practical legal things having to do with business, and foreign citizenship.) We have to collaborate and cooperate with each other on these non-personal but important things that require both of our involvement. So we have mutually agreed to not mix that with our personal strife and handle our practical responsibilities like adults. (Fingers crossed!)

Regarding "testing the waters"... .only to see if we can establish some kind of friendship. Not "best friends", but civil people who can meet occasionally without drama. The fact that he seems willing to initiate this is huge. I will try it, and worst case scenario, he acts like a fool in the restaurant, and I leave. I don't foresee that though. He asked to meet, claiming he wanted to discuss practical things and try to be at peace with each other, and drop the grudges. He doesn't usually make an overture of peace if he's not really interested in it. If he wants to attack me, he just comes out swinging. He never pretends it's a truce, then goes off the rails. He's at least straightforward that way.  If he wants war, he's pretty clear on that.

Doesn't seem to be the case this time.

 

[Enabler]

It's good to have eyes wide open and a view on where you see certain things going. You know your ex better than anyone on the boards.

It's good to get the admin done and dusted especially when he appears to being reasonable and co-operative. Admin and the mutual need for you to get this completed can easily turn into a carrot to keep you coming back to see him, procrastinate, stall and keep you partially attached and less free to make independent choices... .those little threads which keep you mutually tied together. If I'm honest I have to be a little bit suspicious about his motivations for the meal being completely without romantic agenda... .I mean could any of this be done via phone or mail?

It's easy to minimise the last incident of chaos or slightly dilute the negative elements of the relationship after he's done something positive/good/normal. I'm typically pessimistic about the outside world, however I tend to be optimistic about my own path to happiness. I can easily interpret a brief moment of niceness from my W into "she's turned a corner", "she's had a moment of self reflection", "she's had a change of heart", only to be dashed moments later when normal returns. I'm not saying you're just waiting for him to say "lets have another crack" and you'll be back in his house with him and his kids in a flash... .I'm just saying that from what you have written, and that's between the lines as well as the statements itself, I sense you're not as closed to the idea sub-consciously as you say you are consciously. Maintaining a friendship with someone you have had a long period of intimate relations with is very tough, there's always likely to be one or other who has more desire to rekindle the relationship than the other. It's not to say it can't be done, just typically involves being an emotionally healthy adult.


Enabler

[Enabler]

I guess this is what I am eluding to as well... .

Mission Creep - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_creep

[BasementDweller]

It's good to have eyes wide open and a view on where you see certain things going. You know your ex better than anyone on the boards.

It's good to get the admin done and dusted especially when he appears to being reasonable and co-operative. Admin and the mutual need for you to get this completed can easily turn into a carrot to keep you coming back to see him, procrastinate, stall and keep you partially attached and less free to make independent choices... .those little threads which keep you mutually tied together. If I'm honest I have to be a little bit suspicious about his motivations for the meal being completely without romantic agenda... .I mean could any of this be done via phone or mail?

Haha! "Mission Creep" - I have never heard of that. I'll keep it in mind, then.

Some of what we have to do can be handled by phone or email (and is) but other stuff not so easily. We do need to sit down at least 1-2 more times and go over some paperwork and also attend a meeting together next week.

Regarding romantic agenda, I truly think not at this point. Even when apologizing, he stressed that he does NOT want to get back together, and this cannot be fixed. I didn't argue. I think if there is an ulterior motive beneath the surface, it is more likely to assuage his own guilt and want to feel more like a "good guy". I don't think it's romantic at all, but possibly egoistic. I can live with that. Peace would make me feel better too. If that helps feed his ego and need for self-validation, that's fine.

It's easy to minimise the last incident of chaos or slightly dilute the negative elements of the relationship after he's done something positive/good/normal. I'm typically pessimistic about the outside world, however I tend to be optimistic about my own path to happiness. I can easily interpret a brief moment of niceness from my W into "she's turned a corner", "she's had a moment of self reflection", "she's had a change of heart", only to be dashed moments later when normal returns. I'm not saying you're just waiting for him to say "lets have another crack" and you'll be back in his house with him and his kids in a flash... .I'm just saying that from what you have written, and that's between the lines as well as the statements itself, I sense you're not as closed to the idea sub-consciously as you say you are consciously.

It's true that I still have feelings for him but I will not enter into a relationship with him again any time remotely soon, and would not even consider it unless I saw accountability, change, and awareness of his part of the conflict, and prolonged and regular therapy - with progress. I will not even entertain this for consideration for at least another year. IF I am single. I don't make important decisions based on feelings without allowing logic to be at the head of the table. There is no logical or rational reason to recycle. It would be a disaster.

Also, I am seeing someone, and he is a very good man. Stable, calm, kind, and he likes me. I will not toss him aside and possibly hurt his feelings to jump back into the fire with my still very disordered ex. Hell no. I am enjoying the peace of being in the company of a man who doesn't go nuts on me. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ytb06MQVsM <-- Best movie moment ever.

Maintaining a friendship with someone you have had a long period of intimate relations with is very tough, there's always likely to be one or other who has more desire to rekindle the relationship than the other. It's not to say it can't be done, just typically involves being an emotionally healthy adult.


Enabler

This is very true. I am willing to give it a try - at least a casual friendship. If it turns out to be too difficult, lesson learned. I have successfully stayed friends with every ex I have ever had, even one I loved dearly and really did not want to lose. (Long distance and bad timing did us in, but there was a lot of love there. Still is, on both our parts.) After a while, it was ok, and my feelings of love took a backseat to the appreciation of him as a person and a friend. He is the same with me. It's no secret we know we are oddly made for each other, but he's in a relationship, and I have been up until recently too, and am now dating.

I am sure I can be friends with my BPD ex. The concern is if he can. I'm willing to give it a shot, since I prefer that to holding a grudge, or being NC. I'll do what turns out to be for the best... .but I am willing to try this. It would be great if it could work. And again, I don't mean best buddies who hang out all the time. I mean civil people who CAN meet SOMETIMES... .and have it be ok.

[Enabler]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ytb06MQVsM <-- Best movie moment ever.

A colleague made this comment today - "I have to say its one of the strangest relationships".

[BasementDweller]

Hahaha! I think I said that many times during my stint with BPD ex. Sometimes strangely good, other times, a full-blown nightmare of epic proportions.

[BasementDweller]

Quick update: Just had the dinner and looked over the paperwork. No drama, no manipulation, no recycle talk. It was a totally pleasant experience. It was like having dinner with a friend. Not sure how or why it was so easy, but it was. He was absolutely... .normal. Might be just a calm spell, but I won’t complain.

[Enabler]

Perfect, good for you and hope it was a weight off your mind.

[BasementDweller]

Definitely! I’ll write a bit more about it soon. On a bus right now. :-)

[Cromwell]

On a bus right now. :-)

back to HQ in St Petersberg for Debrief?  

BasementDweller, psychic hotline told me ages ago you were a Femme Fatale

Anyway, glad it went well for you. 

[Chitchat]

Does your ex know you are seeing someone?

[MeandThee29]

It's good to have eyes wide open and a view on where you see certain things going. You know your ex better than anyone on the boards.

Testing the waters is fine if you feel steady yourself and are emotionally prepared. This may not be a turnaround after all, and you have to be prepared to accept that. People don't change suddenly. The level of disordered thinking you describe before the switch flipped is a concern.

Keep your guard up though. Baby steps.

[Chitchat]

But don't make important decisions based on feelings without allowing logic to be at the head of the table.

But do humans not make important decisions based on logic without allowing feelings to be at the head of the table?

[Husband321]

Also, I am seeing someone, and he is a very good man. Stable, calm, kind, and he likes me. I will not toss him aside and possibly hurt his feelings to jump back into the fire with my still very disordered ex. Hell no. I am enjoying the peace of being in the company of a man who doesn't go nuts on me. 

When you told the current guy you are dating that you are having dinner with your ex, what was his reaction?

[BasementDweller]

Howdy! Sorry for delayed replies. Very busy weekend without much screen time.

So the meeting went well, and my ex was remarkably civil and also very clear in his head, which I haven't seen in a long time. We discussed what we needed to, and he didn't try to initiate any kind of quarrel at all. It was a huge departure from how he behaved two nights prior to the meeting, but I think seeing me for the first time in what was once our home likely threw him for a loop. He brought himself around though, which was new for him. I know he has been in therapy, but I am left wondering if he is on some type of mood stabilizer. He typically would not consent to meds, but who knows? I also think that me giving him his space after the first visit, and not engaging in any drama helped. At least I hope so.

But do humans not make important decisions based on logic without allowing feelings to be at the head of the table?

Yes, they do chitchat, but I typically do not. Actions based purely on emotion can often be regrettable. I am trying to embrace the "wise mind" mindset and look at feelings and logic and how they can work together, but this is a bit of a challenge for me, being way more of a thinker than a feeler. Working on that. ;-)

Testing the waters is fine if you feel steady yourself and are emotionally prepared. This may not be a turnaround after all, and you have to be prepared to accept that. People don't change suddenly. The level of disordered thinking you describe before the switch flipped is a concern.

Keep your guard up though. Baby steps.

Yes, I agree, meandthee, that this is still basically a "violent mood swing", but I'm relieved that this time the mood swung into a better place, not worse. However, I am still very much on guard, and also very mindful of my own reactions and responses and how they can make all the difference in the world in how he behaves. I just wish I had mastered this sooner. 

Does your ex know you are seeing someone?

Not that I am aware of, chitchat. I don't see any good that could come from revealing that detail right now. He hasn't asked me to reconcile, and I don't want to know if he starts dating someone. The less emotionally charged material we have to deal with right now, the better.

When you told the current guy you are dating that you are having dinner with your ex, what was his reaction?

Hi, husband321!  He was very understanding and supportive about it. He did say he hoped that my ex wouldn't start yelling at me or acting out, and he was relieved when I was able to tell him that it was totally civil. Whew!

[Long_term_dad]

I feel like I have entered the twilight zone. More so than I was at the end of my relationship where my partner had gone full-blown schizo.

... .

Well, BasementDweller, what an experience.  It sounds like you have perspective and are getting some good supportive insights from others here.  What resonated with me was your description of the slurry of complaints about you heaped on you.  I was at my BPDs the other day for some routine moderately unpleasant paperwork ( the day before we actually got on well - we didn't finish the paperwork so i returned) and, like you observed, it was interesting to see how she flipped into this dysregulated angry word-salad crazy-making barrage of sh*t when we broached one difficult subject in which (I gather) she felt at a disadvantage.  I've worked hard, like you, to put up and maintain boundaries and as a result I didn't get ensnared like I once would have, and that's good news, but I noticed a residual effect afterward, a kind of unease and free-floating anxiety, just from having been there.  Her default behavior is to lapse into a recitation of old harms and wounds inflicted on her by me, in a quasi-friendly form of " I'm just telling you how I feel" as if it's my duty to sit there and get showered with that miasma of blech. The thing is, I used to do exactly that: sit there and let her sh*t on me, and then wonder why I was in a fog and confused and feeling anxious and emasculated.  As I recall it it's a bit embarrassing for me, but that was the tractor beam I allowed myself to get trapped in.  Score one big point for boundaries, though. This time as the barrage began I stood up, folded up my laptop and put it in my backpack, and said "I am not going to participate in this conversation", and she backed down and we made it through most of the sh*twork.  I was proud of being able to deal with it in a healthier way and I have to credit both the "Eggshells" book and the group support here.

[BasementDweller]

Well, BasementDweller, what an experience. 

Hi, Long_term_dad!  It's been a ride, I tell ya. Never a dull moment!

"dysregulated angry word-salad crazy-making barrage of sh*t" HAHA! Yes. Exactly this. Well said! I also get the regular itemized list of perceived slights spanning back nearly three years, that have already been discussed and resolved a million times over. He will still bring up the time I revealed that I don't boil my eggs the same way he does, and that it was "horribly offensive" to him. And various other similar charges.

I'm sorry to hear you have been subjected to similar. Nothing like an avalanche of verbal abuse in the middle of an otherwise fine day! I'm glad you were able to get her back on task and diffuse the tirade. Good work! It does get easier, as your suit of armor gets thicker.

Since that apologetic phone call, and the dinner that went well, I have met with him once in town to exchange paperwork. He was cold and defensive, but not abusive. The following day, I attended a professional meeting with him (cold and defensive beforehand, an absolute champ during - totally cooperative, no signs of dysregulation, and then cold and defensive right after.) He later switched back to civility when I did not respond in kind, and showed no defensiveness back at him.

Basically, the more obnoxious he becomes, the more calm I become. He's not used to that, and I can see his gears turning, struggling to process that his control over me has completely disintegrated.

I've been to the house once after the meeting to pick up some items. He was mostly ok, then he emailed me an invoice he knew I needed without me having to ask, with a very polite message. An hour later, he sent me an email that started out congenial and regressed into him telling me not to wait on him for anything and to move on with my life because "you are who you are" (meaning me) and he doubts I "could ever do any better or different."    Now that I have largely detached from him, I just see him spinning like a top, and all over the map. I don't need to point out the projection here. I'm learning from my experiences and bettering myself after this break-up... .he's still doing nothing better or different - at least not consistently.

I thanked him for the invoice and responded to none of the rest. It crossed my mind to question what makes him think I haven't moved on since I initiate no contact with him, unless in writing re: practical matters... .and I am also seeing someone. But whatever. That would be JADE, and of no use. I really don't even find any of it triggering anymore. Just sad.

There's no need to ever go there, re: telling him I have moved on and am dating. My life has gotten a lot easier since I stopped taking his bait, and I also now see clearly that any dysregulated behaviors or snide remarks from him are an attempt to assuage his own guilt, and convince himself that I deserve to have been treated the way I was - but he knows damn well better than that. It's so obvious that the gravity of what he has destroyed and what he has lost has finally hit him like a ton of bricks. As it should.

AND: his calm, collected, rational behavior in the professional meeting proved he CAN control himself when it behooves him to do so. He never gave me the luxury of his ability to "reel it in"... .but he sure as f*$k CAN do it for others. I watched it with my own eyes. Knowing all that - I take it all with a grain of salt. I still care about him as a person, but I do not trust him, either to tell the truth when he's upset, or to be emotionally reliable. I hold no grudge against him, nor do I harbor feelings of obligation any longer. I wish him the best and hope he finds a way to get well. He's a smart man with a lot of good qualities. It may be futile on my part, but I hope he some day finds happiness.

He could have had it with me... .but then again, due to his emotional limitations... .he couldn't.

[Enabler]

He could have had it with me... .but then again, due to his emotional limitations... .he couldn't.

Such a good place to be.

[BasementDweller]

Such a good place to be.

I guess realizing this is a good place for me... .in a left handed way. For him it's kind of tragic, eh? I'm not perfect, but I'm a good woman, dammit! Fool done messed up! 

I can't wait until he tries to get back in the dating pool and remembers why he was so impressed with me, by comparison, in the first place.   It's shark infested waters out there, and he knows this all too well. I'd be willing to bet my life savings that he will soon after commence to complaining to me about my replacement, and wanting sympathy because she isn't down with his behavior - OR - she's more unhinged than he is.

How's by you, Enabler? 

[Enabler]

Funny how you can see these slow motion train wrecks. Not sure why I think the 55yr old portly womaniser who's on his 3rd trip round the marital block isn't a great match for a 39yr old blonde hottie... .oh... .that's it... .he agrees with all the sh!t he has no idea about doesn't he. King validation. Well, lets see how good he is at validating when he's got some vested interest and living the facts. Small rant over.

I'm living the dream every day in every way. Emotionally my rubber band is pretty strong, I ping back quicker and quicker every time a BPD oddity occurs. Sometimes I don't even stretch, and just see straight through the weird. I can't say it's a meaningful existence... .and I mean existence, because I have no real trajectory and cannot plan for the future with any real direction, only an array of potential outcomes. Life is on hold for me, life is on hold for my kids... .silly things like buying furniture or kitting out bedrooms... .what's the point when one doesn't know whether they will be moving into a smaller house. I make the best of a bad predicament and see that the impacts are minimal... .however I can't help but think sometimes that it's less the impacts I should be concerned with and more the lack of millage the kids could have achieved if they weren't held back by this 'situation', like someone has the brakes on permanently. They are probably blissfully unaware that there is anything on hold as it's their normal... .but I do.

We have a date for the first hearing of the divorce, the decree Nisi. First financial discussions were okay bar one difficult 'non-rescuing' question I asked her. Since then there has been little discussed. This is likely because of other things going on and her being unwell, but the urgent and unbearable narrative situation doesn't seem to be matched by actions and focus. These are her choices and I will stand by what I think is right... .which is my choice... .and yes, that also means my life is on hold because of said choice.

It's not such a bad place either.

Enabler

[BasementDweller]

Funny how you can see these slow motion train wrecks. Not sure why I think the 55yr old portly womaniser who's on his 3rd trip round the marital block isn't a great match for a 39yr old blonde hottie... .oh... .that's it... .he agrees with all the sh!t he has no idea about doesn't he. King validation.

Enabler

I LOL'd at this. Not because it's actually funny... .but just the ridiculous irony. My ex trashed some of my other exes for "not being there for me in the end" (I never had a bad, or non-amicable break-up) and touted what a superior guy he was, and how I had finally hit the gold mine. He also trashed his ex-wife for cheating on him and being "untrustworthy". I now wonder if any of that was true. He launched a smear campaign against me too in the end, all of it lies. I am now left wondering if her cheating on him was a lie too, and instead she just left him - and soon after met someone else because he was so impossible. I'll likely never know.

When he devalued and discarded me, he seemed to have forgotten that none of my exes had never tried to do any such thing, and he triangulated his ex-wife who was now painted white, and he kept trying to get reassurance from her that he "wasn't that bad... ."

Oy.

He also hated his sister and disowned her every few years only to take her back when he wanted something, and needed a partner in crime. She was painted black for three years until he needed another rescuer. She jumped right back into the drama, full bore, because... .Histrionic Personality Disorder for her. Any attention is good attention as far as she is concerned. Family events were always fun with that crew, let's just put it that way. 

Not long ago I was in your shoes and just waiting for my ex to cut the crap and drop the act, as he kept screaming at me that he hated me and wanted me gone, yet would do zero to cooperate with us splitting up and me moving out in any kind of normal way. Finally I fled in terror when he went way too far into prolonged psychosis, and there wasn't even anything left of him that I recognized. It doesn't seem like your wife is that off the deep end, right? But she is demanding action (divorce) but not really participating in the process in any kind of convincing way, is that right?

[Enabler]

Correct. Said she wanted a divorce in Mar last year. It's glacially slow with each bit involving a 3 month stay of execution. What hurts at the moment is the passive aggressive / ST behaviour. I send a whatsap and I get ignored all day, yet I see her online for ages I assume talking to other people. No doubt I will get some message after 5 when she knows I am on my way home or she wants to tell me she's going out tonight saying "Oh, sorry, I just saw this, been flat out all day... ." then partially answer the question I asked at 9am. You can't pull the BS card since you can't prove what she was or wasn't doing. I feel like saying:

 "HEY! This is your choice to get a divorce, I'm the one that's supposed to be kicking and screaming and I'm not. Do what you've got to do, be civil and treat me like a regular human being. I may not like what you are doing and I'm sure as hell not going to help you or make it easy for you, I may even hate you for what you are doing, I may want to scream and shout in your face for what you are doing... .but I'm not... .SO GET ON WITH DOING WHAT YOU SAY YOU NEED TO DO, the door is open, no one is stopping you, just do it with some dignity and integrity please. I'm not going to die, I AM GOING TO THRIVE."

But there's no point in saying that.