Debilitating shame

[doubleAries]

Feeling pretty sheepish and creepy at the moment.

My T has been encouraging me to try an online dating website. I didn’t really want to, but finally decided OK maybe I’m ready for that. But now I see why he wanted me to do it—not because I’m ready for dating. To bring me face to face with the creepiness inside me that he’s been trying to get to for 3 years. I scrolled through literally hundreds of photos of guys (until they began to look like mugshots) looking for something in someones eyes that would make me believe that they were a serious and tough enough person to deal with all my baggage. Not just run from their desired "hiking trip and fun", screaming into the night. I thought I found one.

So I foisted myself onto this guy, and then for some absolutely bizarre reason, I flipped out and spilled my guts all over the place.

House on fire? horrible car wreck? No problem! Competent and confident!

Debating state senate president and minority leader on TV? Check—confident and competent.

Playing instruments and singing on a stage in front of a bunch of people? Yep—confident and competent.

Employer/business owner, dealing with sometimes difficult employees/customers? Hey—competent and confident! Out and about socializing? Woo-Hoo! Fun and outgoing!

Trying to befriend someone I find interesting? No prob…wait…urgh…if I don’t immediately disclose every skeleton in my closet I’m a fraud and liar…urgh…shut up…urgh…can’t….VOMIT, VOMIT, VOMIT….

What a creepy weirdo. How incredibly embarrassing. Dang—at least it’s someone online that I’ve never actually met, rather than some frightened sucker sitting on my couch trying to figure out how to get to the door the quickest route. He can escape a lot easier this way.

And then I came face to face with my imbedded shame. Spent 3 days wallowing around on the floor (literally) sniveling and crying. Witch Mom’s voice in my head, letting me know what a STOOPID POS I am, what a retard reject moron. But it’s even worse than that: I can’t even talk about that (being a retard reject moron) because it sounds like I’m fishing for assurance, manipulating for reassurance or compliments or something—being a self-important narcissistic a-hole. Because frankly, I’m not important enough to be a stupid POS retard reject moron. I don’t hate myself because I’m not important enough for self-hatred or self-pity. Heck, I don’t even get to be a writhing mass of protoplasm—that’s a little too self-important as well, isn’t it?

If you can possibly believe it, this guy will now occasionally reply to one of my emails, in a very distant aloof manner; very, very careful not to be personal in any way, shape or form. I’m not sure why he even bothers with that. It’s now time to shut up and go crawl back under the rock I slithered out from under. And that’s creepy too—imagine being him----some weirdo comes swooshing down out of nowhere (the exact kind of weirdo everyone is afraid of meeting on a dating website!) spews a bunch of vomitus weirdo-ness, and then disappears into thin air (at least there’s that last part, rather than a stalker…). I’ve tried to apologize, but the apology sounds self-serving and self-pity like. I’m not sorry for myself, I’m sorry for forcing my creepiness on some unsuspecting person. My apology is being brushed aside. As it should be I guess—I should have been sorry FIRST (and just shut up and minded my own business), not after the fact.

I don’t see myself getting over any of this. I do a pretty good job looking somewhat “normal” in the world—good job, community service, responsible, all that—but underneath, I’m not. And intimacy requires genuine and sincere emotional interaction. Right—and who wants to hear the slime I have to offer? I have some sincere and genuine emotions to share, but they’re GROSS. I can’t offer it anyway, because like I said—voicing it sounds like trying to elicit pats on the back and reassurance, like I’m wallowing in self-pity. If that reassurance ever does come, I don’t believe it anyway, so there’s no point fishing for it. "They’re just being polite", you know? No one wants that kind of crap foisted on them, and understandably. I wouldn’t either, were I a normal person. No one can convince me otherwise, because I have to do that myself. And I can’t. I just can’t. Mom’s voice just will not go away. I’ve begged, pleaded, argued, bargained and reasoned with it, and there is no exorcism of it.

I used to think that I could dig into people, ask lots of pointed personal questions in order to learn the stuff I didn’t learn growing up—how to be a “regular person”. How to develop some self-esteem and self-value. But guess what? People don’t like to be grilled about personal stuff—especially when they don’t even know you (I thought if they didn’t know me it would be easier because once I got what I was looking for I’d go away and leave them be in peace). That hasn’t worked so well, obviously.

Hiding from the world doesn’t teach you how to overcome your own hurdles and integrate, but it does allow something resembling inner peace. An imitation of it anyway, which is better than wallowing around on the floor like a POS that needs an @ss beating. I don’t have as much courage as I thought I had.

Oh, great…now look at me! Blathering on and on and on about shutting up! HAHAHA! Now I can’t shut up about shutting up!

I tried to delete my profile off the dating website but couldn’t figure out how, so I just took all the pictures off and re-wrote my profile to say this:

About Me

NO, NO, NO

How about some more no?

Trying to delete my profile and the site won't let me, so go ahead and read all about how what I want to say is NO, NO, NO

Still won't let me get away with too short of a description--so here goes:

Want a date with me?

Awesome.

Here's how it will go:

You: So, what do you like to do?

Me: Ramble on and on and on until you want to throw up and so do I.

You: uh... .seriously?

Me: Yep.

You: Well, why?

Me: I don't know. Loser I guess. Shall we start? Let me tell you about every creepy thing that has ever happened to me in my life... .

You: Wow! Look at the time! I just remembered something important I have to do! Uh, here's a fake phone number--call me.

Me: Sure, you bet.

First Date

there's only one date. See above.

[doubleAries]

The above is a pretty good example of the toxic shame I (and so many of us who grew up abused) engage in.

I've been in counseling for 3 years, and my T has been trying to get this through to me in every way he could think of. I was trying to understand but just haven't been able to grasp it. Until very recently.

This guy I mention above is a few months away from his Masters degree in clinical psychology (nice change of pace--my counseling must be paying off--compared to my usual attraction to schizophrenics, serial killers, and various abusers; "that's all that would have a POS like me, right? RIGHT?" meet my mother. Her voice is in my emotions). I mentioned something about soothing angst, and he asked me about that--asked "what angst? what kinds of thoughts surround it?" and I just spewed.

Actually, what happened is I tried to translate the feelings to words, and as an example, went with what I felt when I was creating my profile on the dating website. It went like this (and I'm leaving edited foul language in, because this is what "mom's voice" talks to me like):

“what the f*** do you think you’re doing? Seriously—who the h*** do you think you are? AS IF. So what—you’re going to pluck some poor son of a b*** off the internet and turn his life upside down with all your nonsense horses**t? How could you possibly believe anyone wants to hear your long winded boring bulls**t? Are you retarded? Stop it right now before you make an absolute fool of your stupid self, and quit pretending that you are in any way lovable, because you’re not. You’re just not and you know it.”

And as I wrote that, I felt it intensely and flipped out--spent most of the next 3 days rolling around on the floor (literally), crying and castigating myself for crying ("what a snivelly little crybaby! Quit feeling sorry for your stupid self and get up and do something productive, you sniveling lazy martyr loser!"

Unfortunately, I also continued to spew to this guy, who--I'm sure--was completely overwhelmed (uh, we've never met and had only exchanged a handful of messages and emails by then). And castigated myself for that too. I tried to apologize, but castigated myself for even that ("oh, NOW you're sorry--what a loser! you know what you are? a manipulative lying self pity freak!" and I knew that even if he were to say "it's OK" I would not believe him ("he's just being polite--feeling sorry for me. He's saw through me now, that I'm an absolute weirdo, undeserving of anything but rejection and scorn. And it's all my fault, because I couldn't keep my GIGANTIC STUPID mouth shut! Geez, can't you EVER just SHUT UP?"

I resolved to slink off and leave this guy alone, but confusingly enough, just when I've written him off, he sends another email--yes, distant and not even remotely personal, but still--apparently not completely scared off----("NOT YET, you loser! I'm sure you'll continue to find a way to blow it though-that's what you do BEST, right dirtbag? RIGHT?"

I spent about an hour typing (to myself, not this guy or anyone else  ) all that crap that "mom's voice" says to me and cried really, really hard. And right now, I feel like I've at least begun the process of making friends with my shame. I can even laugh at "mom's voice" instead of cringing.

[jhkbuzz]

Wow, it sounds like the degree that you're beating yourself up is waaaaaay out of proportion to what you did  (oversharing in a conversation). Consider this: this man is still in touch with you... .perhaps you are not as awful as you tell yourself you are? Perhaps he sees more redeeming qualities in you than you see in yourself?

I don't know if you're familiar with schema therapy, but Dr. Jeffrey Young postulates that all human beings have emotional "modes" that they function in.  There are times that we flip in and out of these "modes" based on whether or not we are triggered. There are healthy, functional modes (healthy adult, happy child), but there are also maladaptive modes.  These maladaptive modes develop in childhood in response to events in childhood that you could not control, but they wreak havoc in our adult lives when we carry them into adult relationships.

It sounds like you are in "punitive parent" mode when you are busy telling yourself what a worthless POS you are. (Punitive Parent : feels that oneself or others deserves punishment or blame and often acts on these feelings by being blaming, punishing, or abusive towards self... .www.schematherapy.com/id72.htm).  An FYI:  Schema therapy addresses the many different ways that therapist can help people integrate their different modes... .but the objective is to ELIMINATE the punitive parent mode... .it has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.  It does nothing but LIE to you and, as you have figured out, it is an internalized voice of a critical parent.

I've also recently watched TED videos of Dr. Brene Brown - she is a researcher who has studied vulnerability and shame.  Very very insightful.

Sending warm wishes your way... .you are a person who is completely worthy of love and acceptance.

[Pingo]

doubleAries, do you write for a living?  Because your writing style is fantastic!  But what you are writing about is very sad.  I'm so sorry that you are beating yourself up like this.  I agree with jhkbuzz, that Punitive Parent does nothing but wreaks havoc on your life!  It lies!  You most certainly do deserve love and acceptance.  And to be honest, going on a dating website is a good way to practise changing that pattern.  So you feel ashamed because you overshared (been there, done that!).  This guy means nothing to you.  Try again.  Maybe you'll overshare again.  These people don't know you!  In the big scheme of things they don't matter.  You might find with some practise you are able to pull back a little and realise you have a right to your feelings, you can own your experiences, even the shame, and still be a worthy person. 

That mother's voice, I know it all too well.  Mine didn't verbally abuse me.  But the shame and judgement was there nonetheless.  It is a hard voice to shake off.  But not impossible.  You are doing it right now, by opening up about your shame.  Realise that takes a tremendous amount of courage!  Sending you hugs! 

[Grey Kitty]

  doubleAiries

I wish I had a solution for your toxic shame. You and I both know it isn't that easy. 

First off, your writing had me laughing my head off. Literally. Score one thing you don't have to be ashamed of--have you ever considered stand-up comedy? Especially the revised dating profile!

On a more serious note, this is another way to distract yourself (and all the rest of us here!) from the hurt you experienced and are still experiencing. I notice that the only sad/mean/hard things you express in any detail are the parts where you beat yourself up over what you did.

I'm feeling very tender-hearted today. If I read the original over-sharing email you sent, I would probably be weeping for your loss and pain... .and I even know a good chunk of your story from these boards.


Second off, "a few months away from his Masters degree in clinical psychology" ... .I hope he's not going to use you in his thesis!


Lastly... .I think that those three days wallowing and crying are one of the most important parts of your path to healing this. On a serious note, I've been doing a lot of that kind of grieving... .both for my marriage (which may not survive) and for what I was doing to myself during and before it. I'm finding things that are breaking my heart right open these days.

It hurts. But it hurts in the right way. I hope you find something similar.   

[doubleAries]

Awesome--thanks, all, for your warm empathy.

Now I want to share (overshare? ) a little more... .

jhkbuzz---yes, that "voice" is definitely way out of proportion to my "crimes". I'm not surprised really--I think many of us have that "voice" (the reason I put "voice" in quote marks is because usually it isn't in actual words like thoughts are. It's emotionally based, so it's more subconscious, and effecting behavior). And I also think that "voice" does actually take on some of the characteristics of the person(s) who fed us that shame as children. And in my case, that was a true Sadist (with a capital S, I'm not just throwing the word around) mother. She has actually said those kinds of things to me, and now I say them to myself, with her rage and tone of voice. Yes, it is alarming--but it accurately reflects the level of abusiveness I dealt with as a child.

Pingo---I don't write for a living, but under duress of my counselor I am writing a book about my childhood. The working title is "daughter of the witch" but I am very seriously considering calling it "Hansel and Gretel get their @sses beat until they're bloody". This sounds bizarre until you read the book--one of my mothers daily sayings to my brothers and I was "do you want me to beat your @ss until it's bloody?" and then she'd do it. I've read about those who, in a truly traumatic situation, laugh inappropriately out of sheer nervousness and fear. That's exactly where my sense of gallows humor comes from. Laugh or die (or have a psychotic break).

Grey Kitty---hey, pal! Good to hear from you! Sorry to hear you're going through the wringer. But maybe your wringer will spit you out the other end in even better shape like mine just did with me. And yes, I also hope I don't just become a case study for this guy. Hard to explain, but after scrolling through literally hundreds of pictures on the dating website, when I came to his I actually drew a sharp breath in and stopped in my tracks. Not just the "cute factor" (although he certainly is cute), but the look on his face, more specifically--something I saw in his eyes in his photo. A driven intensity that isn't completely warped--just like me. I was even more intrigued when I read his profile--it was very honest and direct, rather than pretty packaging best foot forward kind of stuff. So to the point--I don't want this one to get away, it would be really hard to find a better or even close to similarly suited person. I wasn't really looking for anyone, until I saw this one. And I want this person in my life in a way I've never wanted anyone in my life ever before. Uh, even though I've done just about everything I can think of to sabotage it.

Which brings me to this... .

ALL---thanks so much for your caring responses, and I want to share with you the outcome of my meltdown, especially because I hear all of you referring to this "voice" in the same way I always did. About "getting rid of it", of "banishing it". I want to talk about that, and the important thing I learned from this meltdown.

I did my 3 days of wallowing on the floor. Then I had a couple of days of tentative and somewhat numb reprieve (during which my stress weakened me and made me susceptible to a wretched case of the flu). Then it came back. Full force. The next day of wallowing on the floor was more intense than all of the other 3 days combined. I wasn't even crying anymore, I was making this horrible keening/lamenting sound. Scared the stuffing out of my poor cats. This went on for hours and hours, and all the while, "mom's voice" was just tearing me to shreds for doing it.

And finally when I absolutely really truly could not sob anymore, I rolled over out of the fetal position onto my back... .and it all became clear. It is and was simple and easy. I clear as a bell understood what my counselor has been telling me all along, about nurturing myself. I understood what my dating site guy told me about befriending his emotions, and having a cup of tea with his shame. I finally, finally understood.

I'm not sure if the rolling-on-the-floor-agony was really necessary. Maybe it was--maybe I needed to wade straight into the fire of shame to get through it, maybe others don't--I don't know that part. It is what it is, and I did it the way I did it. But what I finally understood was something I already knew, in part-- that all the years and years of begging, pleading, bargaining, threatening, reasoning, cajoling, cringing, and arguing with that "voice" never made one lick of difference. If anything, it made it worse.

At that moment, laying on my back on the floor, ribs aching from hours and hours of lamenting and sobbing, with that voice STILL screaming at me, I kind of took it in my arms. I spoke out loud to it, and I said "look here, mom's voice (because that's what I'm going to call it), you have always been there for me. You have been there through thick and thin, through EVERYTHING. You have never left my side. Ever. Now c'mere and give me a hug. I'm sorry for your hurt and pain and fear. Eventually I will be able to tell you I love you. But right now, let's sit down and have a cup of tea together." And that's exactly what I did. I made some chamomile and peppermint tea, and sat on the couch, and talked out loud to myself. For a little bit, "mom's voice" was stunned into silence. Then it started again--"you're talking out loud to yourself, weirdo. You're having a psychotic break. You're crazy. you belong in a psych ward. What kind of weirdo---" And I interrupted and said "ah, mom's voice--there you are again, you crabby little devil, you. Let me explain something to you... .what you are saying is not 'THE TRUTH'. It's called fears. And it's OK. It's OK to be afraid. We're all afraid sometimes. Your fears are a little mutated because you've been banished to the basement all by yourself for a long time. But now you're here with me and we're having a cup of tea. It's OK to be afraid."

OK? I just talked to "mom's voice" like a small child. Like a small child who is scared and angry and neglected and abused. Because that's who "mom's voice" is.

And "mom's voice" is still with me. "Mom's voice" is already lessening in frequency and intensity, after only a couple of days, but it's still there. My own understanding prevents "mom's voice" from dictating my actions, reactions, behaviors, and feelings. But it's still there. For now. Until it heals. Which it is and will continue to do. Like always, "mom's voice" doesn't always come in words--it is, after all, banished to the basement where I can barely hear it anymore, even though it makes it's presence well known (and we can't let anyone in the house when we have a tortured hated kidnap victim hidden in the basement, now can we?)---mostly "mom's voice" comes in feelings. They are easy to spot now. The debilitating queasy fear, second guessing, and rug-yanked-out-from-under-me self doubt. Ah--there it is... ."mom's voice". C'mon out and have some tea. Look at the sunshine--isn't it pretty?

I hope this helps someone else. I feel literally reborn and excitedly look forward to whatever next revelation life has to offer. And hey--you know what? Maybe the dating site guy won't like me as much as I like him, even though for some weird reason (hahaha!) he keeps emailing me. But that's OK too.  

Peace and blessings, all!

[Pingo]

Whoa, doubleAries, I'd call that quite the breakthrough!  And you know what?  Maybe YOU won't like HIM in the end!  Maybe he won't be good enough for what YOU deserve!  You get to decide! 

Peace and blessings to you too!

[doubleAries]

Haha! Thanks, Pingo--you could be right!

And by the way (and this has me literally laughing out loud), my new revised profile (on the dating website) has been read a LOT more times than my original one! 

[Grey Kitty]

Since you are pursuing this guy... .you aren't looking for anybody else to date right now... .if you leave your new and suddenly popular dating profile up, I expect to see the meme going around as a facebook graphic within a month or three!   You could be a thing of legends!

 That is an amazing story! The cup of tea was really sweet.

And the the rolling-on-the-floor-agony... .It obviously turned out exactly as it was meant to. Exactly what you needed to go through at this time.

What I'm going through isn't nearly that intense. (I don't have that intense a voice in my head to befriend) I'm finding a lot of grief on the way to accepting that my wife is who she is, and some of who she is involves doing things that don't work for me. I've borrowed from the captain of "Team Grey Kitty" a fantastic term: Tears of Divine Intervention. I've cried quite a few. They are a completely different class from the more normal tears.

I have no doubt that a better Grey Kitty is coming out the other end.

[doubleAries]

OMG

I just got a flirt/message on my "dating profile".

Cut and paste:

princess

Hello dear ho re you doing and how is your day going? compliment of the season... .i must tell you this you re seme very beautiful please tell me that you re ok

Uh, I hope this guy is joking, but looking at his profile, I don't think he is.

 

Holy Hangovers, Batman--this could actually be fun   

[doubleAries]

Oh, making clear to the directly above that I have no intention whatsoever of responding to any messages sent to my revised profile--just will be fun seeing any messages that come in response to it. 

[Grey Kitty]

I'm sure that comic relief does you a LOT of good at a time like this! 

[Harri]

Hi DoubleAries.  Thank you for sharing all that.  I can relate to a lot of the feelings you wrote about, specifically the shame and the guilt.  I have that mother from hell voice in my head too and I have been trying to figure out how to deal with it.  This right here is gold to me:

I just talked to "mom's voice" like a small child. Like a small child who is scared and angry and neglected and abused. Because that's who "mom's voice" is.

A while back I came to see the small hurt child behind the raging witch queen that was my mother... .I just never thought to talk to her and embrace her like I would any hurting child. 

I hope this helps someone else.

It has.  More than you can imagine.  Thank you.

[Grey Kitty]

I do have one concerned question for you... .are you still considering dating this guy if he is willing?

I know this is off-topic from the shame issue. Speaking of which... .you have sat with it for a couple more days. How are you feeling about the shame, mom's voice, and all today?

[eyvindr]

Awesome stuff, doubleAries!

You had me a "creepy and sheepish"! You definitely have a knack for painting a darkly humorous picture!

Hang in there!

[doubleAries]

Harri--super! Isn't it weird how so much of a picture can be filled in, yet one tiny little missing piece of the picture makes all the rest of it unintelligible? That's how I feel, anyway. Geez, I've been seeing a counselor for 3 years who has been doing this ground work all along, who has continually talked to me about "nurturing the child within" (which sounded a little too... ."new agey" for me). Even though I know that "voice" (and like I said, it's not like I'm hearing voices--most of the time it's feelings, not thoughts or "voices" is my own, with a borrowed tone and style, I still wanted it to be "NOT me". My counselor has even tried to get me to talk out loud to the child in his office--which I couldn't. That's pretty weird, right? Talking out loud to your former child self! Well, I suppose that's not who I talk out loud to anyway--I talk out loud to my adult self that used to be a child. And most of the out loud talking has stopped already anyway. Amazing how fast this is moving along now, now that the one little (but huge) missing piece has become conscious.

Grey Kitty--I certainly was considering dating this guy. But that's now completely out of my hands. I've sent him several emails this week (hmmm... .there's mom's voice again, wanting to add ... ."like a desperate pathetic stalker!" which of course I am not. Let me talk in typing to her for a minute, to get the practice: "mom's voice, it's the pain and embarrassment of rejection we're dealing with here. You're calling me a pathetic desperate stalker because you want to believe that you deserve rejection and others rejection is your own fault. It's OK to be hurt, and it's OK to be embarrassed. It's OK to hope and not get what you hoped for. What's the point of avoiding the relatively minor pain and embarrassment of being rejected by someone you've never even actually met, by tearing yourself to bloody little shreds? Not a very good avoidance technique in the bigger picture, is it? Haha, OK let's have a little tea while we experience the pain and embarrassment, and consider how that proves I/"we" do actually exist and care" So anyway, I haven't heard anything from him since Tuesday morning, which was a breezy little "nice day, I'm going for a bike ride" thing. The communication has been very one-sided on my part for longer than that, and especially now that there is no response at all. I'm going to save it for someone that participates in the conversation. Heck, "mom's voice" is a better conversationalist than this guy! 

Meanwhile, an amazing transformation has been happening for me. Most of yesterday I spent in a very cool head space. I really don't know how to describe it--but at the risk of sounding "new-agey"  it felt like clean, clear white light. Like all my defenses were down and a clear clean light was up. Like I clearly understood that others actions and reactions and thoughts and feelings are their own and not mine, and not dangerous to me in any way. Worthy of examination and pondering, like unwrapping trash wrapped pieces of treasure. Others treasures and my own. And examining the trash too, because it used to be treasure, like a cocoon used to be treasure before it completed it's important purpose. Treasure is in the eye of the beholder. And it's ok to choose what you want to be trash or treasure. And the little kid in me--who always has LOVED treasure chests, delighted in being allowed to open treasure chests--even if the treasure chest is labeled "Pandora's box".  I don't know, maybe I'm losing it  Seriously, I feel pretty awesome and free.

eyvindr--  thanks!

[Grey Kitty]

DA, my biggest concern about dating him would be that you picked him out... .when you were half-way through these incredible changes you are making. As you get more comfortable with sharing tea with mom's voice, you will probably choose differently.

Well that, and if he *IS* interested in dating you after the VOMIT VOMIT VOMIT followed by BEAT SELF UP FOR VOMITING, etc... .isn't his interest after that a    ?

I love your cocoon / treasure image, and the way you are feeling as you come out. Another way of looking at it is that you spent three years putting the rest of the picture together... .so you could see what space was missing and finally go looking for that one last piece. All that went before was necessary groundwork.

[doubleAries]

Grey Kitty--awesome healthy thinking! So maybe this guy is pretty healthy himself, seeing as how I haven't heard from him in several days, and for several days before that it was just extremely breezy stuff about going for a bike ride.

However, for someone who is on the verge of becoming a counselor--and indeed is already working with clients for his internship--you'd just think maybe he'd have the courtesy to say something, anything--"best of luck, have a nice life", whatever. What kind of seems    to me right now is that he seemed to be totally fine with me vomiting on him but when I get my act together he's no longer interested and just melts into the ether with no parting words at all. Let this be a lesson for many of us about choosing a good counselor, one who practices what he or she preaches. As well as internet dating--never know who you'll meet--could be someone who just brushes you aside, or it could even be someone who swoops out of nowhere and vomits all over you!  

My own counselor, who I did choose carefully and who I do trust, was excited for me for all of this. And we both said at the same time "this changes EVERYTHING" and indeed it does. Including the urge to VOMIT.

how are things for you, Grey Kitty? I've been thinking about your "tears of divine intervention"--please, do share.

[Grey Kitty]

I have a favorite saying when discussing the mental health of peolpe who are counselors (or becoming ones).

Have you ever met an optometrist with 20/20 vision?

Seriously... .though, I suspect that most people take an interest in that field because they have had people very close to them, if not themselves who NEED IT BADLY.

This guy I mention above is a few months away from his Masters degree in clinical psychology (nice change of pace--my counseling must be paying off--compared to my usual attraction to schizophrenics, serial killers, and various abusers;

yes a step up from that 

But check for individual   just like you would if he was an engineer, lawyer, or delivery truck driver.

You will probably never know about this guy. Maybe he just felt initially drawn to your pic, so he kept talking to you... .then he start to come to his senses, re-read the VOMIT notes, talked to a friend in his classes and ran away screaming like a sensible person would 


When your current profile gets a message, for fun you should at least reply with "No, No, NO!"


As for me... .I'm finding acceptance of where my wife is, and acceptance that she's trying to go someplace from there. Where she is doesn't work for me. I'm giving her a few weeks to decide she's going someplace that does work for me.  I just wrote a little more about that here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=241137.0;all

Haven't had tears in a couple days. I'm sure they will find me soon enough.

I'm also finally choosing to do things with my life that work for me, and it isn't comfortable yet, but I'm feeling good about the stretching! I'm also feeling very good about the supportive people I'm gathering around me in my life.

[doubleAries]

hmmm... .yes, your scenario makes a lot of sense. It really does. *sigh*

Well, I'm kind of back to where I was before anyway--I don't think I'm ready to be stepping out there just yet. And geez--especially after reading your link! No offense intended at all, just thinking relationships are in fact pretty complicated and I've got my own complications right now. Not fair to dump a big pile of my own vomit on anyone else right now, and can't really deal with anyone else's at the moment either. I commend you for the patience and tenaciousness and dedication & commitment you are capable of right now. I'm not there. Just not.

I have been divorced from a guy with bipolar 1 (mixed) with paranoid delusions and bipolar driven ASPD and NPD for 2 years now. We were married for almost 18 years. We managed to straggle out of a nasty and very weird (really? what a surprise! ) split up still as friendly as could be expected (in fact, he still works for me, albeit from his own place and not at my workshop), but there's not much point in pretending (a) that wasn't a very dramatic 18 year diversion from my own issues (I promise you--that serious diagnosis, by its very nature, always took priority. Always.), and (b) that diversion wasn't simply a diversion that didn't create even more issues.

I am leaving for a 3 week long trade show on Monday. Wouldn't you know, my show partner will be the ex-husband. My son flaked out and last minute, so the only other person who knows how to do this show, of course, is the ex... .In any case, my last appoint with my T was Tuesday and I won't have another until I get back. When I left his office, he very solemnly told me "I understand you are in a very vulnerable place right now... .don't hesitate to call me if you need help." (In reality, he is often hard to get ahold of without an appointment--he's a pretty popular and busy guy) I kind of thought "huh?... .what's that supposed to mean?" but brushed it aside because I was busy feeling so serene. But I see what he means now. It's going to be a strange show for me, and I will be leaning on my friends here at BPD Family to help me get through it (if you all would, please watch for my posts to personal inventory) as I think I'd rather hole up in my cozy house and ponder my way through this, but I can't--this show is expensive, already paid for, and a huge part of my annual income.

This so called "clear, clean, light" thing (not sure if it's a phase or a new way of seeing things) brings many insights. Some of which are peaceful and serene. Some of which are not. I don't mean memories from a childhood in hell bubbling up--I never had repressed memories. Maybe it's emotions--not even attached to memories--from a childhood in hell bubbling up--I'm not really sure yet. Some of this is what I think is a more objective view of myself and my issues (not to be confused with my mothers gigantic issues which were all encompassing for her kids) and they're... .for brevities sake, icky.

Not the same flavor as "mom's voice", not the self castigating, self shredding stuff. But these insights into myself; years of being at my core, a sort of non-entity--a non-existent, disconnected, mirror like 'person' whose only value came from others. A real identity crisis, even though I determinedly developed areas of my life quite well. Interpersonal relationships have been a problem my entire adult life, with progress, but so slow and twisted that I did finally seek professional help. Definitely the seeds for BPD. I've repeatedly tried to get my T to diagnose me as a BPD (as well as a number of other things--PTSD, Stockholm Syndrome, OCD--anything I found that I saw a trace of myself in. Not because I want a diagnosis, but because I know SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH ME, and I can easily convince myself that if a BPD (or other diagnosis) is so clearly in denial of their issues, then how do I know I'm not in denial? Yeah--that's probably it. I'm in denial and I must overcome the denial in order to get on with whatever treatment is required to recover and become "normal".

I know my T will not lie to me, but "mom's voice" can be quite convincing, whispering in my ear that counselors frequently don't tell their BPD patients that they are BPD, lest they stop coming for treatment/counseling, and that I am indeed a BPD. He keeps assuring me that I am not BPD, PTSD, OCD, or any of the other things I come up with, and while yes, he sees threads of these things, he doesn't even see "traits" so much as just threads and that I don't come close to qualifying for a diagnosis of any of them. And I continue to assure him that he can go ahead and tell me the truth--I promise that I am sincere about my commitment to counseling. Sometimes he is amused, other times exasperated.

Sometimes "mom's voice" is incredibly harsh, accurately reflecting the level of severe abuse and rage I endured as a child. Other times, it is still shame based but more openly fearful instead of rage filled, and "sounds" more logical and reasonable--more "truthful". It is difficult to discern the difference at times between rational logic, and fear & shame based "logic" for me. I go around and around in a circle, like a dog on a chain. All of this is becoming more clear (that clean, clear, light thing--argh! hard to come up with good articulate descriptions sometimes! Symbolism will have to do). But some of what I see now about myself now isn't so fearful or hateful, but is still quite uncomfortable. The twistedness is difficult to view--painful and embarrassing (embarrassment is, of course, a subsidiary of shame). I don't know--it's all a little weird. And my T is right--vulnerable.

[Grey Kitty]

  Yes, you are vulnerable, and you are walking straight into danger. There is strength in the vulnerability, but it is hard to see. Sometimes knowing how fragile you are is amazingly powerful. This thought... .and how I share that place with you is bringing up more of those Tears of Divine Intervention for me.

The position of "Though I walk through the valley of death, I shall fear no evil... .because I'm the meanest, baddest SOB in the valley" might make you feel better about your trade show with your exH... .but that isn't where you are.

Good luck. Three weeks is a bit of a marathon for something like that. [Sanity check: You ARE staying in your own hotel room, NOT with him for this show, right?]

hmmm... .yes, your scenario makes a lot of sense. It really does. *sigh*

Well, I'm kind of back to where I was before anyway--I don't think I'm ready to be stepping out there just yet. And geez--especially after reading your link! No offense intended at all, just thinking relationships are in fact pretty complicated and I've got my own complications right now. Not fair to dump a big pile of my own vomit on anyone else right now, and can't really deal with anyone else's at the moment either. I commend you for the patience and tenaciousness and dedication & commitment you are capable of right now. I'm not there. Just not.

My wife and I have been polyamorous for a while... .and the r/s that we both got into initially were very drama-filled... .and my r/s with my wife is today. [Understatement!] Even though I have had a strong desire to try out dating for a few years now, I've avoided it, for that exact reason: I didn't feel that it would be fair to the person I started dating to rope them into the sort of r/s drama I'm living. (And if they wanted or needed that sort of drama... .well, they weren't the person *I* wanted to be involved with!). So I'm staying out of the pool these days. (Wish my wife was... .but that is part of the drama   )

I think in this case, you learned what you needed to learn, plus got some comic relief. Be patient with yourself--you will feel differently about dating at the right time.


So hang in there, take care of yourself... .I remember my meditation teacher saying that sometimes the right thing is to push yourself to go sit on the cushion and practice when you don't want to... .and sometimes the right thing is to sit down with a cup of tea and NOT push yourself.

With this trade show, I'd recommend you err on the side of being gentle with yourself, DA, and just make it through these three weeks, and keep your business together.

The issues bubbling up in therapy... .issues you are sharing here... .you don't have to hurry to deal with them--they've been with you now for most all your life, and you've made it this far. You can let them wait a little longer. Be gentle with yourself. 

And you may find that that act of self-compassion does as much for your healing as facing the crap head on would have.

[willtimeheal]

One of the best books and talks I have heard about shame and vulnerability is by Dr. Brene Brown. She has researched it for years and she uses people's stories as her research. When I listened to her talk and read her books it was eye opening for me. You can google her Ted TV talks. These talks are unbelievable and once you understand shame and vulnerability life gets better. Listen to the talks.

[doubleAries]

willtimeheal--thanks, I will do that. I also just got in the mail a book I ordered by John Bradshaw called "healing the shame that binds you"--I'm going to bring that along on my trip (as well as my laptop, and I can watch the videos you recommend).

Grey Kitty--what an absolute sweet heart you are! I certainly hope things work out in a peaceful way for you, one way or the other. If things don't work with your wife (and I see clearly that you do want that to work into a loveable situation), then one of these days when you dip your foot back in the pool, some very lucky gal is going to snap you up and keep pinching herself to make sure she isn't dreaming!

How's this for the sanity check? This show is huge (it's the Tucson gem and mineral show). The entire town basically becomes the show, and most "booths" are actually hotel rooms (including mine). So sleeping rooms are extremely difficult to find and when one does actually appear, it's around a gazillion dollars per night. I have to sleep in my "booth" room. So does the exH. We do have separate inflatable twin mattresses at least, and he has quite a few old college friends who live there that he'll be visiting with after show hours, and perhaps even staying with on occasion. It's going to be tight quarters, and rough. But this show represents about 1/3 of my annual income, and I have some major (and expensive) dental work going on. Have to do it.

I guess if I could make it through 16+ years of the witch mother, I can make it through 3 weeks of massive emotional shifts during a trade show! My workshop is on the lot right next door to my house. When I was going through the wallowing on the floor crying jag, I'd go out to the workshop and get my employees set up with their tasks, and start working on my own, and then try to be casual and say "oh--I forgot something in the house. I'll be right back" and then beeline for the house and wallow around on the floor for a while. Then head back out to work, all casual. Sheesh. That was hard.

I understand exactly what you're saying about the dating thing! That's how I feel too--adding a very slight twist to it: I have no business roping someone else into my chaos, but anyone who said they didn't mind (or thought it was cool) I sure as heck would run away from as fast as I could!

And speaking of... .this morning a few of my guy pals sat me down to set me straight. They didn't want to hurt my feelings but didn't want to see me hurt either (that was the opening speech) and told me their take on Mr. online dating guy. Which is pretty similar to yours. That they think he was initially excited to meet someone and then started going "what the... .?" But they think all the later infrequent breezy (about going for a bike ride) replies to my long soul purging emails were a form of baiting. Baiting me to keep up the vomiting diarrhea of the mouth (which I did). And probably not for material for his thesis, but more likely for guffawing entertainment purposes, and probably not just for himself but also for some of his friends. A great big   went off over my head. Duh. Talk about humiliating. Going to need 5 or 9 cups of tea with good ol' "mom's voice" this evening  

Here's one of the things that's going to be a bit rough at this show: I don't drink or use drugs, I don't like to watch TV. Hey--to each their own, but for me, these things smack of anesthesia. I don't like anesthesia. I like to be alive and aware of being alive and thinking, feeling, experiencing. 12 hour days of sales and smiling cheerfully will be something of a distraction. Until the door closes. *sigh* I can do it. (Hey DA--you're an ARIES--think of it as a challenge   )

[Pingo]

willtimeheal--thanks, I will do that. I also just got in the mail a book I ordered by John Bradshaw called "healing the shame that binds you"--I'm going to bring that along on my trip (as well as my laptop, and I can watch the videos you recommend).

doubleAries, I really loved this book!  It was a life changer for me, I hope you get the same from it!  Bring along a journal to use, there are invaluable exercises in the book!  And good luck at your trade show! 

[Grey Kitty]

Uhm... .about that trade show... .It sounds like you have good reasons for bouncing that sanity check so bad you will probably need a new bank account And I hope it fills your financial bank account at least.

Here's one of the things that's going to be a bit rough at this show: I don't drink or use drugs, I don't like to watch TV. Hey--to each their own, but for me, these things smack of anesthesia. I don't like anesthesia. I like to be alive and aware of being alive and thinking, feeling, experiencing. 12 hour days of sales and smiling cheerfully will be something of a distraction. Until the door closes. *sigh* I can do it. (Hey DA--you're an ARIES--think of it as a challenge   )

My challenge (for myself) is to live life more in touch with my feelings, being more open, and more genuine. I've got lots of experience checking out on and avoiding feelings. I bet that was a critical tool you had to make it into an adult life given your witch mom. You are now realizing that this tool isn't serving you well in relationships as an adult, and looking for new ones. 

Anesthesia isn't a good life's plan. I've used it as a coping tool myself. Plenty. (Honestly, when I spend hours a day on these forums, mostly dealing with other people's problems, I am letting myself off the hook and either not making the tough choices I've got in the rest of my life, or not doing the actual work I say I'm choosing to do. ... .I pat myself on the back for choosing a way to do this that is at least helping others! ... .I've also spent days playing games on my phone   )

Anesthesia is very helpful when used for the right reasons. I wouldn't want open heart surgery without it!

Your house isn't next door, you can't go over there and weep for an hour. Make a choice about what you want to do during your downtime. You have a lot of heavy emotional processing you are doing, and plenty more to do. If you don't do it during the show, it will be waiting for you when you get back home and catch your breath and catch up on sleep. (Don't worry... .if you decide not to look and dig at the show... .and you NEED to... .your baggage knows where to find you!)

You could watch videos or read books about vulnerability and shame, talk to mom's voice, and journal about it.

You could watch youtube videos of stupid cat tricks, or work on your business plan for the next year, or pick up your phone and talk to the most supportive / least toxic person in your life. Call your T and check in. Go out and walk, or run, then take a hot shower or bath. I'm not recommending you start on TV, drugs, or alcohol 

What do you do to sooth yourself?

[HappyNihilist]

doubleAries, thank you so much for sharing yourself like this. You are an amazing writer! And might I be so bold to say that you seem like an amazing person, too. I hope you are able to see that for yourself. 

I well know that toxic shame, that negative criticizing voice, that deep feeling of not being worthy or lovable. Your descriptions made me laugh but also grabbed onto my heart. You are not alone.

You are doing great, wonderful, hard work on yourself.

Meanwhile, an amazing transformation has been happening for me. Most of yesterday I spent in a very cool head space. I really don't know how to describe it--but at the risk of sounding "new-agey"  it felt like clean, clear white light. Like all my defenses were down and a clear clean light was up. Like I clearly understood that others actions and reactions and thoughts and feelings are their own and not mine, and not dangerous to me in any way. Worthy of examination and pondering, like unwrapping trash wrapped pieces of treasure. Others treasures and my own. And examining the trash too, because it used to be treasure, like a cocoon used to be treasure before it completed it's important purpose. Treasure is in the eye of the beholder. And it's ok to choose what you want to be trash or treasure. And the little kid in me--who always has LOVED treasure chests, delighted in being allowed to open treasure chests--even if the treasure chest is labeled "Pandora's box".  I don't know, maybe I'm losing it  Seriously, I feel pretty awesome and free.

I know exactly what you're talking about... .it is an absolutely beautiful, amazing transformation... .you will never be the same from this point forward. Hold onto that feeling of light and understanding. 

[jhkbuzz]

jhkbuzz---yes, that "voice" is definitely way out of proportion to my "crimes". I'm not surprised really--I think many of us have that "voice" (the reason I put "voice" in quote marks is because usually it isn't in actual words like thoughts are. It's emotionally based, so it's more subconscious, and effecting behavior). And I also think that "voice" does actually take on some of the characteristics of the person(s) who fed us that shame as children. And in my case, that was a true Sadist (with a capital S, I'm not just throwing the word around) mother. She has actually said those kinds of things to me, and now I say them to myself, with her rage and tone of voice. Yes, it is alarming--but it accurately reflects the level of abusiveness I dealt with as a child.

No, I don't think that's true.  Most of us don't.

Am I self critical sometimes?  Sure. Do I question myself sometimes?  Sure. Do I beat myself up (psychically) to a bloody pulp?  No.

[doubleAries]

jhkbuzz--Beating ourselves to a physically bloody pulp would put us smack dab in the middle of the movie "Fight Club".

HappyNihilist--I see you have a KMFDM quote--my favorite band of all time! Thanks for letting me share. Not everyone cares to hear this kind of sharing.

I'm still out of sorts a bit, feeling like a fringe member of society.

I don't think I'll ever get on a dating website again. Really. I saw profile after profile of guys saying pretty much the same thing--"I don't have baggage and neither should you".

I'm unsure here... .I will be 50 years old in a few months. Do people of this age really not have baggage? I mean, it kind of seems like if you don't have any baggage by 50 then you aren't doing anything, like living. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe people who had reasonably healthy parents don't feel like they have baggage.

I feel kind of "stuck" in a way. I'm not stuck in victim mode, but it seems to me that if you grow up in an abusive environment (and especially a severely abusive environment) you basically have the choice of carrying on the tradition, or yanking yourself up by the bootstraps. By which I mean yes, looking at "here's what happened to me" but not staying there--moving to the next step of "OK, and what do I do with this?" Trying to spin straw into gold. Looking within not just without. And I have had to spend a LOT of time on that (I don't really mind--it is what it is). But many, many people consider that "BAGGAGE". And it's not just awkward to them, it is repulsive. Which makes me feel repulsive. Which leads right back to my sadist witch mother telling me day in and day out for years and years and years how repulsive I was to her. Which inevitably leads to wondering--at least in emotions if not thoughts--am I repulsive? Is there something inherently "wrong" with me, besides my baggage? A difficult cycle to break... .

Grey Kitty--thank you so much for checking in on me. It is touching and moving in a more profound way right now than I can possibly express. I mean that. It's difficult to do light, breezy sales when in my head I am immersed in intense introspection. All of this has changed my life--my whole life--forever, and I am only barely grasping the gravity of that.

Wow.

Who needs drugs, when life itself is so incredible?

[Grey Kitty]

Back to the dating website.    Have you got any new messages for "No, No, No"?

My take on baggage is that most people have it by puberty, and may keep collecting more for a while after that... .perhaps quite a while after that. I'm looking at 50, I feel like I'm learning how to set down a lot of mine just now. However if I saw a profile that like "I have no baggage and you better not either" I'd interpret that as "I'm in denial about my baggage, and I'll blame you for anything that goes wrong in a r/s with you."

Whatever baggage you have, and however you dealt with it, by 50 you sure will have some history, at least!

In your case, you built up a lot of very serious and powerful defenses to protect yourself from your childhood. They served you very well--I remember you saying that when you meet people who went through the kind of abuse you did, they are non-functioning basket-cases. You survived and did much better than that!

Here's a parable: Someone was on a journey and got stuck at the bank of a big river for a long time, unable to cross. Finally they managed to make a raft. It was a lot of effort and it was very important to them. Then upon crossing the river, and continuing their journey on a road, they struggled to drag a heavy raft behind them because it was so useful on the river... .not noticing that it was really slowing them down on the road now.

You are letting go of some of your old defenses now. Kinda like dropping the raft and walking with a spring in your step.

[HappyNihilist]

HappyNihilist--I see you have a KMFDM quote--my favorite band of all time! Thanks for letting me share. Not everyone cares to hear this kind of sharing.

I'm still out of sorts a bit, feeling like a fringe member of society.

My exBPDbf actually turned me on to KMFDM; I'd heard them before, but didn't really start listening to them until him. He had some good taste.  But it was one of my friends who pointed out that "I (Heart) You" perfectly describes a BPD relationship.

I know, I'm so thankful to have this place... .being able to share so openly and deeply. It helps unlock so much.

It's difficult to do light, breezy sales when in my head I am immersed in intense introspection. All of this has changed my life--my whole life--forever, and I am only barely grasping the gravity of that.

Wow.

Who needs drugs, when life itself is so incredible?

You are going to deep, amazing, dark, beautiful places within yourself.

If it's at all possible for you to take a couple days just to yourself, I would encourage it. I was lucky enough to be able to do so, during a similar time -- took some time off work, told friends and family I needed a few days to myself -- and having those uninterrupted hours to lose myself in intense introspection was incredible.

My take on baggage is that most people have it by puberty, and may keep collecting more for a while after that... .perhaps quite a while after that. I'm looking at 50, I feel like I'm learning how to set down a lot of mine just now. However if I saw a profile that like "I have no baggage and you better not either" I'd interpret that as "I'm in denial about my baggage, and I'll blame you for anything that goes wrong in a r/s with you."

Whatever baggage you have, and however you dealt with it, by 50 you sure will have some history, at least!

This is pretty much my take on baggage, too... .and I would interpret such a statement similarly.

There's a Japanese art form called Kintsugi, fixing broken pottery with lacquer resin mixed with precious metals. It's based on a philosophy that "treats breakage and repair as part of the history of an object, rather than something to disguise."

People who deny their history by disguising their brokenness aren't likely to be fulfilling partners for people who acknowledge and embrace their brokenness, and want to repair and sublimate it to create the beautiful work of art of themselves.