Long evening and morning of deciding not to fight

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

So... .couple things.  I still hope to learn how to properly validate... .or figure out what to validate... .especially when I am not at top of my game (when I feel bad).

And... .hoping for evaluation on "not taking the bait" and avoiding arguments.

So... .I've had a butt kicking cold for few days... .it's been very obvious.  I've taken care of myself.  Wife has been pleasant for a while now... .things have been calm.

Anyway... .yesterday I stared to emerge from the cold.  Still achy.  Went out to do some light walking... .try to stretch out and get rid of aches and pains.  Wife came out as well... .she decided to go for run.  I walked 10-15 minutes and went inside to stretch.  Felt a bit defeated... .I had wanted to do more.

Later that evening... .I got to feeling better... .and decided to go again.  Wife was in middle of some big phone conversation... .I went to walk.  I walked... .stretched... .walked... .almost quit a couple times... .but pushed through it.  

I get a phone call towards the end of the walk asking where I am... .telling me I am supposed to let her know where I'm at... .etc etc.  I didn't agree or disagree... .but let her know I was pushing on with my walk... .was struggling a bit.

I get home and she starts discussing my "2 hour walk"... .my clock says somewhere between 1 hr 15 minutes and 1 hr 30 minutes at worst.  I don't discuss my or her version of the length of the walk.  

I'm stretching and doing light exercise while this is going on.

I can tell their is the "air" about her that she is digging to start something.  A couple questions were asked in an OK way... .about the walk... .and I gave short... .direct answers.

She starts watching TV... .and I'm hopeful it's been worked through... .whatever "it" is.

She pauses TV and asks if I am doing ok... .since the "disappearing" thing has started again.  "No... .I'm not doing ok... .is my answer."

Back to TV she goes.

She pauses tv after a while and says... ."I've got to be honest with you... .You are a jerk!"  Note:  Her voice is calm it was said respectfully... .except for the content.  

I looked at her... .turned and walked out of the room.  I go upstairs and keep stretching and exercising in our room.

There is drama in the boys room... .s7 ends up crying.  We both show up at room about the same time.  Issue gets handled... .she goes back to living room... .I go with and we snuggle on couch some.  All seems well.

I tell her I'm going to get ready for bed... .that I'm hopeful I can get good night sleep and really emerge from sickness the next morning.

I'm dozing when she comes in to get in bed.  There is some light talk.  Then she wonders outloud if we are doing the right thing.  We are in our 40s (she says) and could easily start over with someone else.  Well... .maybe not easily... .

I don't directly respond to this... .

There is some other light talk... .and off to sleep we went.

Got up this morning... .was able to have good 20 minute snuggle before I got out of bed.  Then I went about getting kids up and going.

She gets dressed for work.  Comes "lightly storming" into the living room waving a note around.  It's from s7.  Nice note about her being good mommy.  She says this is what she needs from her partner and is sad she is never going to get it.  She is walking in and out of room as she says this.  

I ignore this and ask her if she would like some french toast sticks.  She says yes... .but wants them done in microwave.  (I'm making a big batch in oven)  I fix them for her... .bring her some milk.  

She accepts them without a word.

There is drama as S12 misses bus... .I drive him to catch bus.

When I get back she is "lightly storming" around house getting ready to head off to school (substitute teaching).  I make sure I'm by the door when she leaves.  Tell her she looks great... .get a peck of a kiss and off she goes.  

Couple things:

1.  I think I did well not biting on any of the "bait" she tossed out... .not even a nibble.

2.  There were a couple compliments I gave... .but didn't try to validate.  Partially because I felt bad... .partially because I didn't want to make the effort.

Thoughts on how I can try to validate in situations like these?  

What do I say when she starts talking about timelines that are way off... ."2 hr walk... ."  Because... .in my mind... .so what if I take a 2 hour walk... .or 2 minute walk.

FF

[formflier]

So... .couple things.  I still hope to learn how to properly validate... .or figure out what to validate... .especially when I am not at top of my game (when I feel bad).

And... .hoping for evaluation on "not taking the bait" and avoiding arguments.

So... .I've had a butt kicking cold for few days... .it's been very obvious.  I've taken care of myself.  Wife has been pleasant for a while now... .things have been calm.

Anyway... .yesterday I stared to emerge from the cold.  Still achy.  Went out to do some light walking... .try to stretch out and get rid of aches and pains.  Wife came out as well... .she decided to go for run.  I walked 10-15 minutes and went inside to stretch.  Felt a bit defeated... .I had wanted to do more.

Later that evening... .I got to feeling better... .and decided to go again.  Wife was in middle of some big phone conversation... .I went to walk.  I walked... .stretched... .walked... .almost quit a couple times... .but pushed through it.  

I get a phone call towards the end of the walk asking where I am... .telling me I am supposed to let her know where I'm at... .etc etc.  I didn't agree or disagree... .but let her know I was pushing on with my walk... .was struggling a bit.

I get home and she starts discussing my "2 hour walk"... .my clock says somewhere between 1 hr 15 minutes and 1 hr 30 minutes at worst.  I don't discuss my or her version of the length of the walk.  

I'm stretching and doing light exercise while this is going on.

I can tell their is the "air" about her that she is digging to start something.  A couple questions were asked in an OK way... .about the walk... .and I gave short... .direct answers.

She starts watching TV... .and I'm hopeful it's been worked through... .whatever "it" is.

She pauses TV and asks if I am doing ok... .since the "disappearing" thing has started again.  "No... .I'm not doing ok... .is my answer."

Back to TV she goes.

She pauses tv after a while and says... ."I've got to be honest with you... .You are a jerk!"  Note:  Her voice is calm it was said respectfully... .except for the content.  

I looked at her... .turned and walked out of the room.  I go upstairs and keep stretching and exercising in our room.

There is drama in the boys room... .s7 ends up crying.  We both show up at room about the same time.  Issue gets handled... .she goes back to living room... .I go with and we snuggle on couch some.  All seems well.

I tell her I'm going to get ready for bed... .that I'm hopeful I can get good night sleep and really emerge from sickness the next morning.

I'm dozing when she comes in to get in bed.  There is some light talk.  Then she wonders outloud if we are doing the right thing.  We are in our 40s (she says) and could easily start over with someone else.  Well... .maybe not easily... .

I don't directly respond to this... .

There is some other light talk... .and off to sleep we went.

Got up this morning... .was able to have good 20 minute snuggle before I got out of bed.  Then I went about getting kids up and going.

She gets dressed for work.  Comes "lightly storming" into the living room waving a note around.  It's from s7.  Nice note about her being good mommy.  She says this is what she needs from her partner and is sad she is never going to get it.  She is walking in and out of room as she says this.  

I ignore this and ask her if she would like some french toast sticks.  She says yes... .but wants them done in microwave.  (I'm making a big batch in oven)  I fix them for her... .bring her some milk.  

She accepts them without a word.

There is drama as S12 misses bus... .I drive him to catch bus.

When I get back she is "lightly storming" around house getting ready to head off to school (substitute teaching).  I make sure I'm by the door when she leaves.  Tell her she looks great... .get a peck of a kiss and off she goes.  

Couple things:

1.  I think I did well not biting on any of the "bait" she tossed out... .not even a nibble.

2.  There were a couple compliments I gave... .but didn't try to validate.  Partially because I felt bad... .partially because I didn't want to make the effort.

Thoughts on how I can try to validate in situations like these?  

What do I say when she starts talking about timelines that are way off... ."2 hr walk... ."  Because... .in my mind... .so what if I take a 2 hour walk... .or 2 minute walk.

FF

[Notwendy]

FF, I will try to give some insights from the female or mom side of this:

"What do I say when she starts talking about timelines that are way off... ."2 hr walk... ."  Because... .in my mind... .so what if I take a 2 hour walk... .or 2 minute walk."

Does your wife have leisure time- time to herself to go to exercise class, take a 2 hrs walk, or anything that involves just her?

According to H's logic, he worked harder than I did ( outside of the home) and so deserved his time off. If I wanted to do something, I had to find a sitter because I could not ask him.  There was an assumption that if I enjoyed my time with the kids, and also my job, that this was all the "me" time I needed. I didn't expect it to be 50-50, but I would have felt less resentful had he offered to watch the kids once in a while as a gesture of solidarity.

So I could see your wife feeling resentful if you just took off on 2 hour walk while she was home with the kids, unless she could do something like this too. It would be better if the two of you have an agreement ahead of time- you have X hours to yourself, she does too.

"She pauses tv after a while and says... ."I've got to be honest with you... .You are a jerk!"

She gets dressed for work.  Comes "lightly storming" into the living room waving a note around.  It's from s7.  Nice note about her being good mommy.  She says this is what she needs from her partner and is sad she is never going to get it.  She is walking in and out of room as she says this. "



She's ticked off about something and it may be your decision to take that 2 hr walk without discussing it with her.

Although you know she has BPD, some of these issues are the "Men from Mars, Women from Venus" issues, perhaps exaggerated. I think it is hard for people with BPD to express their wants directly- perhaps they hint and want to have their minds read, but I think sometimes everyone falls into the trap " If he (or she) loved me then he'd do what I want without me having to ask". Then, when the strong hint isn't picked up, they can resort to saying things like "maybe we should just start over this isn't working". I know I have a tendency to feel as if- well if you are not happy with me, then don't be here" - maybe as a holdover from seeing my parents fight a lot. But this is an unrealistic response to you taking a walk. I can rationalize this, but perhaps your wife doesn't as much in the moment of the emotion. "You're never going to get it" is an expression of exasperation. " I fear that I won't be validated like I need to be".

The validation about being a wife and mother is hard to get. Society doesn't put this on a pedestal like it would something like being a rocket scientist. Someone can say " I'm an electrical engineer" and the response is "ooh that's cool". "I'm a housewife" ... .oh that's ... .uh... .nice". Just about the only person who could validate us is our spouse- nobody else sees what we do as well, or loves the kids like we do. Also, saying validating things is one thing, but then taking off to do your own thing without at least talking about it first is invalidating. My H feeling entitled to take off all day without giving me some choice in the matter,  while I could not do this felt invalidating to me, even if it didn't appear to be to him. His refusal to do dishes felt invalidating because of the implication that " this job is beneath me" therefore you do it. So then, if he said " You are a wonderful wife and mother" but his actions were such that he took what I did for granted, then what he said felt more patronizing. What I felt he could not "get" was that doing the dishes, just once in a blue moon, would have felt more validating than saying something because the gesture would mean something to me. So, what feels validating to your wife?

Now, before you decide I am whakko, I am aware of the other side of this, the "Mars" side. And to nons who do most of the work at home, I do understand, as I was raised by a mom who is like this. I also value what my H does for us. It isn't about the dishes, but the unspoken invalidations and resentments that can become out of proportion over time.

I'm presenting the "Venus" side for clarification. The Venus side can be emotional, even if we know quite well that feelings are not facts. I appreciate my husband and truly want him to enjoy his free time. However, over time, if resentments were there, something small like taking a 2 hour walk when I thought it was shorter might have exacerbated them.

IMHO, your wife is resenting something. Even if she has BPD, that doesn't mean her resentments are out of the ordinary marital conflicts that many people have, but BPD could change the intensity of how it is felt and expressed.

[formflier]

Does your wife have leisure time- time to herself to go to exercise class, take a 2 hrs walk, or anything that involves just her?

Yes... .she has... .and "takes"... .way more leisure time than I do.  2 to 3 times as much.  I used to keep track when it would be challenged in the past... .that didn't help.

She goes to Karate, kickboxing, takes time out at home to do workouts.  At various times she has demanded... .invited... .cajoled me into joining her in these activities.  I have politely refused.  I'm not at that level of fitness right now... .and most likely would injure myself again trying.  I've done so in the past (injured myself trying to "keep up" with others in fitness)

My wife has seen the medical reports... .VA decision letters about all of this... .and from time to time will think I'm a "faker"... .other times will buy into it.

Many times my wife will take her leisure time... ."her" time... .and then come home and sit on couch and watch TV, and do facebook, and have radio on and be trying to "teach" kids morals at the same time. 

Or... .more rare... .is sit there and watch TV and not communicate.

Maybe a long winded way of saying that any argument in her head about her not being able to do same thing has no basis in fact... .not that facts matter.

IMHO, your wife is resenting something. Even if she has BPD, that doesn't mean her resentments are out of the ordinary marital conflicts that many people have, but BPD could change the intensity of how it is felt and expressed.

Very likely... .depending on how things feel when she gets home... .I may ask her about resentment.  Asking her how she feels has gotten no response.

Thanks for perspective... .

FF

[Notwendy]

I agree that how they see it could be out of proportion. Yet in their minds, it is not. My mother did very little of the work of raising kids and taking care of the home, but if you listen to her story, she was mother of the year. Strangely, some of her "memories" sound a lot like things I told her "Hi mom, I was driving the kids to their activities when you called" could then become " I remember driving you kids around all the time" . Well, I don't remember this as all the time, but once in a blue moon. Same as my H, bringing up memories of him and the kids, and saying " I do dishes". Yes, probably less than 5 -10 times in many years of marriage. But hey, he does dishes. ( I bring this up as an example, I have long decided to just do them. This dishes are done or they wait for me in the sink. )

H had no problem working all week, then spending much of the weekend on his stuff. He would either sleep in, by that time the kids were up, dressed, and we would be at the park. Or he'd take off on some all day golf trip. Family vacations were like this too. Me and the kids at the beach, him on the golf course. If I said anything about it, I'd get some logical rant about how much harder he worked than I did and then an accusation that I was keeping him from doing what he wanted to do.

I wanted him to have some time for himself, and also some family time. However, in black and white terms, if I requested some family time, or asked him to watch the kids- it turned into an accusation that I was not allowing him to have time to himself - at all.

The point I am trying to make is that if even it appears unbalanced, to them, their situation is grossly unfair. My mother would be angry and resentful, but even from the kids' perspectives it seemed that she didn't have much asked of her.

My mom has shared about feeling invalidated in her marriage. In ways, I can see it, although growing up it seemed as if she was the queen and we were her serfs. My father was invested in his career and she felt that she didn't have the validation he had. However, some of her invalidation is perceived, not real. I can make the slightest suggestion and she can feel invalidated. Likewise with my H- his family was traditional- I don't think his father ever made anything to eat for himself, washed a dish, and would not know what to do with a diaper. So my asking him to do something his father wouldn't do was probably very invalidating to him.

LOL, I got it from both sides- doing stuff my mother refused to do and my H refused to do. My mother even told me she felt sorry for me that I had to do all this stuff. I just thought that was strange- didn't moms take care of kids, change diapers, fix meals? At least that's what I did. However, I could see where my H's refusal was also more meaningful to me than to someone not raised like me.

So, things can get imbalanced, and something that might look insignificant can be weighted with emotional meaning, as they can be symbolic actions. Maybe in black and white thinking, a little of something means all or none depending on how it is perceived.

[vortex of confusion]

I'm dozing when she comes in to get in bed.  There is some light talk.  Then she wonders outloud if we are doing the right thing.  We are in our 40s (she says) and could easily start over with someone else.  Well... .maybe not easily... .

It is probably good that you didn't respond. I do want to pull it out and ask you to think about it. I know that my husband and I have both said things like this. Can you say with complete honesty that you haven't gotten tired of all of the BS? I know that there have been times when I have had thoughts that it would be easier to be alone or start over with someone else because I am tired of all of this. I know my husband tries and I know that I try. It seems like no matter how much we both try we can't quite get things figured out. I could easily get caught up in being self righteous and say that I don't think my husband is trying. From where I sit, I wonder if it will ever be enough because of all of the crap that has transpired between us. I am sharing this because it might be helpful to talk to your wife about it when you are feeling up to it. If both of you are feeling frustrated, why not share the frustration?

She gets dressed for work.  Comes "lightly storming" into the living room waving a note around.  It's from s7.  Nice note about her being good mommy.  She says this is what she needs from her partner and is sad she is never going to get it.  She is walking in and out of room as she says this.

Golly gee, FF, she is telling you exactly what she wants and you aren't listening.   When is the last time you wrote her a love note?

Think about all of the times that you haven't taken the bait and have "ignored" her. She tried to bring up whether or not the two of you are doing the right thing staying together. You ignored her. She tried to bring up the fact that she wants/needs more praise and recognition. You ignored her. To you and me and others, you are protecting yourself by not taking the bait. To her, it is likely that she feels completely ignored. It seems like she is trying to reach out to you but has absolutely no clue how to do it in a grown up manner. When is the last time the two of you went to MC?

1.  I think I did well not biting on any of the "bait" she tossed out... .not even a nibble.

Thoughts on how I can try to validate in situations like these?

When you find yourself in those situations, how do you honestly feel? I have found that being honest without any attitude has actually been helping. The thing your wife said about wondering if you are doing the right thing is something that has come up here. At one time, I used to get defensive and angry. Now, I tend to get quiet and sad when that topic comes up because I feel the same way at times. I can remind my husband (or he can remind me) that we are doing the right thing because, putting all other BS aside, we both agree wholeheartedly that we want to give our children an in tact home for as long as humanly possible. Sure, all of the other stuff is still there and is messed up. We are doing what we are doing for the kids. That is one area where we can actually agree without fighting/arguing/etc. As a result, I try to steer a lot of things in that direction.

I am going to ramble a bit to give you an idea of what I have said/thought/felt. Maybe you can pull something from it to use to help validate your wife. First off, I am choosing to stay with my husband because I can't imagine anybody else trying to step in and be the father of my kids. I don't want anybody but him being the father of these kids. could somebody else do it better? Possibly, maybe, I don't care. Bottom line is that he is their father and I am not going to do anything to interfere with his ability to be their dad. I may not like him as a husband but I can sure as heck appreciate his attempts at being a father.

What do I say when she starts talking about timelines that are way off... ."2 hr walk... ."  Because... .in my mind... .so what if I take a 2 hour walk... .or 2 minute walk.

You are contradicting yourself. If it doesn't matter whether you take a 2 hour or 2 minute walk, why do you have a need to correct her when she is talking about a timeline being way off. 2 hours is not that far off from an hour and a half. How about saying nothing unless it is actually relevant? In this instance, how would she respond if you simply acknowledged that you were gone with something like, "I didn't realize I was gone so long." It is almost like you are stuck at the timeline. This isn't the military where timelines are important. As a stay at home mom, I can tell you that time sometimes seems to be relative. Some days, an hour seems like 5 hours and other days 5 hours can seem like 5 minutes. It all depends on what is going on. I find it irritating when somebody wants to argue about a timeline when the timeline isn't really relevant to the conversation. What is relevant is that X happened and X is what needs to be discussed. The timeline feels like a distraction to keep from discussing X. My husband has done that to me and I have said, "Okay. Fine. The timeline isn't what I am trying to talk to you about. I don't see that as relevant. What I want to talk about is X."

[Notwendy]

LOL Vortex- I get the timeline thing. My H argues about that down to the minute, except that the timeline is relative to him. If he's gone 2 hrs, then it's an hour. If I am gone 2 hrs, it is "all day!"   


It wasn't the difference between a 1 hr walk or a 10 hour walk. It was in the message she heard or felt when you extended your walk. Now granted you can't do much about how someone else hears something, especially if someone is making up things, but you can put yourself in their shoes.

For instance, once I realized that making suggestions to my mother feels invalidating to her, even if I don't intend it. I don't do it, unless she specifically asks for them.

[formflier]

Golly gee, FF, she is telling you exactly what she wants and you aren't listening.   When is the last time you wrote her a love note?

About a week ago... .maybe week and a half.

It was unsolicited... .but now that she has mentioned it... .it is likely that my next couple notes won't matter because she "made me" write her a note.  I'll most likely keep writing or doing things... .

More later.

FF  

[vortex of confusion]

It wasn't the difference between a 1 hr walk or a 10 hour walk. It was in the message she heard or felt when you extended your walk. Now granted you can't do much about how someone else hears something, especially if someone is making up things, but you can put yourself in their shoes.

That's the thing. . . There was no agreed upon time. FF went for a walk and didn't say how long he would be gone. How can you extend something when there wasn't a set time to begin with?

Does wife expect FF to announce when he is going to leave? Does she expect him to give her an ETA every time he leaves the house? Is there a non-verbal understanding that the two of them let the other know when somebody is leaving and when they might return?

[formflier]

 

This issue has come up in a similar fashion in the past. 

It would appear that before I leave the house... .I'm supposed to track her down and make sure she knows my itinerary... .and possibly even get permission to go.  The permission thing hasn't happened in long time... .long.  I was stupid back then... .pre bpdfamily.

Anyway... .she does not extend me similar courtesy... .she comes and goes as she pleases.  Sometimes... .if I'm right there... .if we are talking... .she will tell me what's up... .and that's fine.  But she doesn't go out of her way.

My basic thought on this... .is I am ok with her behavior in this regard... .so I mirror it as much as possible.  Do unto others... .

Anyway... .so... .while it's not unheard of that I tell her where I am going... .it is not common practice.

I would be happy to follow her lead and make it a common practice.  Following her lead means... .if she makes it a habit... .I will happily put up the effort to match it.   

So... .at some point... .she got upset... .concerned... .whatever... .and called.  I answered... .even though I was breathing heavy from walk... .we talked... .I would assume she would be satisfied at that point. 

Something else is most likely afoot... .I have no idea who she was talking to on the phone before I left... .but I do know there is some drama brewing between her sister and an aunt.  The women seem to be huffing and snorting about who is right... .can you believe so and so thinks this... .has this attitude.

Sister wrote some big email to their dad about it... .expressing sisters unhappiness... .this is between sister and her dad's sister (the aunt).

Or... .I could be totally off base.

Sigh... .

IN other news... .my d18 and I finished up a brake job on the big farm truck today (even though we are off farm... .for now).  It was good to spend time with her... .and to get that job behind us.

Maybe going to change oil and some other fluids in her truck... .later this evening.

This is same daughter that is most likely off to college this fall... .I'll do an update on that later... .things are looking up... .a bit.

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

You've always been so helpful to me, so here is a thought as a female. I like to know if BPDh is just going to take off, and not because I'm trying to be controlling. I just think it's courtesy. Mirroring rarely works with them, I find. I mean, it's perfectly okay for them to justifying doing things, but if the non does the exact same thing, it's perceived differently to them(usually in a negative way, of course). Forget trying to point out that they do the same thing, and that is JADE anyway, right?

I've mirrored on purpose, just hoping BPDh would get a clue, and I point it out, just hoping he'll see how sarcasm feels,  but it hasn't worked. Of course. Fairness, or being able to see how it feels to be on the receiving end just isn't in his skill set.

You can congratulate yourself on not taking the bait. If you think she's able to, maybe you can have a talk about keeping each other informed, and maybe she'll catch on that she also has had a history of not doing so. Wouldn't work with my BPDh because he'd see it as "control", but it might work with your wife.

[formflier]

 

So... .she gets home from work.

Good talking... .nice greeting at door... .I think I'm in the clear... .all has been forgotten.

Well... .we are talking about what to work on next on vehicles... .coordinating things.

And she states that she would like to be able to see part of the instrument panel (dash lights) on our van at night (they've been broken for a while).  She states this... .and whirls and walks out of the room.

It was a mild interruption... .(I had paused to take a breath)... .for her to get to this point.  So... .I guess that conversation is/was over.

Later... .I mentioned that if I started chasing that fault... .it was an unknown trail... .van could be out for couple days and was that ok.  

She just looked at me.

I've sort of taken the stance that I'm not going to "chase" the conversation and try to force her to answer.  I guess it's working better.

I've also taken the stance... .that she has heard me... .knows there is an unanswered question... .and I'll make some decision at some point.  

She had her chance to provide input.

Hmm... .

Anyone with thoughts?

She wasn't mean... .no nasty tone.  

There was a slight stomp to it when she walked out on the conversation... .kinda tossed the words over her shoulder at me.  

But... .compared to prior times she has done this... .it wasn't much.

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

Progress, any progress is good, right? You are right that you did let her have input, but will she then blame you for making the decision? That would be the trap I'd fall into.

It sounds like what you are doing is working. Good for you.

[vortex of confusion]

Anyone with thoughts?

Let it go! She wasn't mean or nasty. She expressed herself. You expressed yourself.

Did she mention where she wanted the dash lights to be on the priority list? If not, you can evaluate when it would be easiest to have the van down for a couple of days. Decide to do it and let her know. Unless you are planning to chase the lights right this minute, there is no need for further discussion. She would probably forget it anyway.

When you get to doing that job, tell her something like, "I am going to go work on the van. It might be down for a couple of days." Don't give her the option of arguing about it.

[GaGrl]

First, as the mother of a whopping Only Child, let me say I have the utmost admiration for anyone managing a family of 8.

That said, if I were a spouse in such a partnership/endeavor... .I would need a checkpoint at least once a day, either early morning or late night, on the next 24 hours. If my spouse left for several hours with little notice, And I were handling the activities of 7 whirling offspring, I wouldn't handle it well.

Are you guys partially psychic?

[Loosestrife]

I can't see what yoh did to deserve being called a jerk? I also don't think it's fair that she throws the whole relationship into question by saying you can both start a fresh. It sounds like you have the patience of a saint. My only concern is toes she respect you?

[vortex of confusion]

I can't see what yoh did to deserve being called a jerk? I also don't think it's fair that she throws the whole relationship into question by saying you can both start a fresh. It sounds like you have the patience of a saint. My only concern is toes she respect you?

I find that figuring out whether or not one deserves something is unhelpful. Nobody deserves the BS that is often thrown our way.

Fair isn't a helpful evaluation. None of this stuff is fair. If a person wants to stay, looking at what is or isn't fair is likely to drive one crazy.

As far as respect goes, I don't think that is a good question either. I do not respect my husband. I treat him as respectfully as I can but I do not respect him. My decision to stay with my spouse is not based on love or respect. My decision to stay is very practical. As such, I try to focus on MY actions and what I can do to keep things as peaceful as possible. Part of that involves ignoring some stuff that isn't abusive and carefully deciding whether or not to chase conversations about some topics.

Maybe I am a bit BPD but there are times when my husband walks by and has done absolutely nothing wrong and I think to myself, "Man, what a jerk." I don't think I would ever say it but I sure as heck would think it. This is after 4 kids and being married for 17 years. There is a lot of baggage and a lot of history.

[Loosestrife]

I can't see what yoh did to deserve being called a jerk? I also don't think it's fair that she throws the whole relationship into question by saying you can both start a fresh. It sounds like you have the patience of a saint. My only concern is toes she respect you?

I find that figuring out whether or not one deserves something is unhelpful. Nobody deserves the BS that is often thrown our way.

Fair isn't a helpful evaluation. None of this stuff is fair. If a person wants to stay, looking at what is or isn't fair is likely to drive one crazy.

As far as respect goes, I don't think that is a good question either. I do not respect my husband. I treat him as respectfully as I can but I do not respect him. My decision to stay with my spouse is not based on love or respect. My decision to stay is very practical. As such, I try to focus on MY actions and what I can do to keep things as peaceful as possible. Part of that involves ignoring some stuff that isn't abusive and carefully deciding whether or not to chase conversations about some topics.

Maybe I am a bit BPD but there are times when my husband walks by and has done absolutely nothing wrong and I think to myself, "Man, what a jerk." I don't think I would ever say it but I sure as heck would think it. This is after 4 kids and being married for 17 years. There is a lot of baggage and a lot of history.

I see where youre coming from vortex in terms of relationsjip longevity with a pwBPD, I didnt  mean for my comments to be unhelpful. I suppose I find it hard to see how a relationship that lacks love and respect is healthy you either party.

[vortex of confusion]

I see where youre coming from vortex in terms of relationsjip longevity with a pwBPD, I didnt  mean for my comments to be unhelpful. I suppose I find it hard to see how a relationship that lacks love and respect is healthy you either party.

I didn't have a problem with your comments. I have run into a lot of people that say the same things. Heck, I used to get caught up in thinking "this isn't fair" or "I don't deserve this." Getting stuck in that kind of thinking made my life more difficult.

I love my husband but I am not "In love" with him. I don't get those loving feelings. For me, love is a choice that I see as an action verb. I can choose loving actions without having respect for him as a husband. How can somebody respect somebody that has been abusive and mean and is difficult to live with? Does my husband respect me? I don't know and I don't care. What I care about is whether or not his actions are such that he isn't abusive towards me or the kids and that he isn't being a flaming jerk.

[formflier]

 

Keep comments coming... .

For me... .I'm trying to figure out if I've missed an "emotionally health" response or can do it better... .

Fair... .respect... .not on my radar right now.

Also... .it helps to write it out here... .and especially get some female perspective.

More later... .I think I have picked up on some of what is big on her mind... .teaser alert!

[vortex of confusion]

For me... .I'm trying to figure out if I've missed an "emotionally health" response or can do it better... .

I haven't seen you post anything that stands out as emotionally unhealthy.

It is a toss up as to whether or not you should have said something about her calling you a jerk. I can see pros and cons to ignoring it and saying something.

There are a few instances where it might have been a good idea to acknowledge that you heard her. If you weren't sure how to respond or weren't feeling it, then keeping quiet was probably the best option.

More later... .I think I have picked up on some of what is big on her mind... .teaser alert!

Awww. . .come on. . .don't keep us in suspense!

[formflier]

Awww. . .come on. . .don't keep us in suspense!

Hey... .if Star Wars is going to drag out the suspense over the new movie... .you guys are going to have to wait too!



Anyway... .I'll tell you about last night... .then something went down this morning.

Last night.

Great talk about her wanting a dog to be a "companion".  Like one of those little toy things.  5lbs.  We talked about ones that she like and didn't like.  Small and yippy doesn't work for her... .big sigh of relief.

Our littlest one (kid) is a bit over 2 now... .unlikely we will have another baby.  But... .it's about time to have another baby... .(in her mind... .and I see and agree with the pattern).

Well... .she is so used to having a "companion" to carry around... .baby... .that she is looking for a substitute.

I asked if there was stuff I could do to fill the void.  Some ideas were put out there... .but I'm not small and cuddly.

It was a normal... .respectful... .loving conversation.  I knew she had been looking some online... .and had expressed a desire to get something after I get a job... .but we hadn't talked deeply about it.

Well... .the rest of the evening was great.  She said she was going to stay up to do her workout... .and I went on to bed.

She showed up in our room a few minutes later and had apparently changed her mind.  We had a great... .intimate evening... .and off to sleep.

[formflier]

 

The wakeup seemed fine this morning... .then I needed to go to lowes to get an electrical part.

She calls and asks if I can get some items she wanted... .talked about some totes and play sand.

Lowes was out of play sand and I got a selection of totes... .planning on returning what wasn't needed... .or I'll use them for other things.

Anyway... .I think the mood was already sour when I got home.

She was working out... .and had a nasty scowl on her face.

She was not happy with the totes... .I obviously didn't listen to her is what she said.

"Are you going to do that thing you and your buddies do?... .where you guys screw stuff up on purpose and the wives get fed up and do it themselves."

I walked out of the room... .I'm not going to respond to a question/statement with a premise like that.

Well... .I went to back of house... .and I was aware she was doing the loud venting (just less than yelling) while doing her workout.  My guess is that it is about me... .but I don't know... .I'm thankful I couldn't hear.

Anyway... .there was some kind of phone call... .I think she placed it... .I didn't hear phone ring.  She slams down the phone and now is yelling "effing this and effing that... ."

I continued to fix (successfully) my electrical issue. 

I cruised back out to the front and asked if she was aware of any more stuff to be bleached (laundry) as I was about to start a load.  She kinda shook her head... .no verbal response.  I went on about my business.

And... .there is more... .

FF

[formflier]

 

After a bit... .I'm out in the yard checking on something... .and she comes out... .a bit early to be going to work.

I ask if she is off to work... .say something about her looking good.

I got a quick peck goodbye from her... .but she was grumpy about it.

Big scowl... .I'm off to lowes to get sand and totes is what she said.  I asked her if I should call around... .because that lowes had said they were out of sand (I had told her this earlier).

She continues walking away from me... .saying something in response... .I have no idea what she said.

So... .then I walk inside... .

FF

[formflier]

 

And find a note on my computer... .

FF,

- Mop the living room, dining room and kitchen

-make dinner

- clean our bathroom.

I am too tired to continue going to work & come home & still do the stay at home parent chores.  Work on vehicle AFTER (she also underlined after) you take care of the house - if you don't wan to mop as often take off your boots.

ff wife

other than my explanation of the underlined after... .that is word for word what I have.

My plan is for that note to go with me to MC next week... .and we can discuss it their.

My guess is she has given up tasking via email and text and is trying this.

I have asked for input at various times on what she would like me to do... .as in "honey... .I'm about to work on this or that... .do you care which?  "... . 

It is rare for me to get a usable response... .

Thoughts?

FF

[Notwendy]

One question is how much to react to her moods?

I recall you mentioning that you have some PTSD. I'm sure I took some element of that into my relationship from growing up with raging mom. If Momma was raging, then Dad would be mad. That was terrifying as a kid. So I am hypersensitive to people's moods, particularly my H's moods. But sometimes, he was just in a pissy mood, like anyone can be in. It was my reaction that made it bigger. However, it is hard to recognize that this isn't all that big when it sets off an alarm reaction.

You have kids so you get this. When a toddler is upset- they have a tantrum. Pre-teens have hissy fits, then they get over it. I recall at one time fearing one of my kids might have BPD. She was having a hissy fit just like my mom. Then, I realized, thankfully, that she didn't have BPD- it was my mom who acts like a kid when she is upset. What do we do when a kid has a hissy fit? Ignore them until they calm down. Now, you can't put your wife in time out, but her acting pissy may not have much more meaning than that and may not require action on your part.

I don't know what your wife is concerned about, but the acting out behavior may be a function of her arrested emotional age.

[formflier]

 

I'm about a zero on the trigger scale... .0 being none... .10... .kaboom.

So... .I'm not reacting and going about my business.

Frustrating... .is that I haven't attempted to validate anything.  I need to spend some time on lessons... .watch videos.

But... .unless she tells me her emotion... .I don't try to validate.  I will guess at "frustrating" sometimes.

Big downside if I guess wrong... .I suspect it is blowback from me taking a hard stance about her telling me my emotions.

If I ask... ."are you angry?"... .she says I'm telling her.

If I ask... ."what are you feeling... .?  "  usually no response... .or blamefest.

Not always... .but much of the time.

FF

[Jessica84]

"Are you going to do that thing you and your buddies do?... .where you guys screw stuff up on purpose and the wives get fed up and do it themselves."

I walked out of the room... .I'm not going to respond to a question/statement with a premise like that.

Sorry FF. I think that's a common wife question. It's in our handbooks! 

You were right not to respond. There's no right answer.

I've actually used this line before... .When my exh (non-BPD) did laundry, he shrunk clothes or turned our whites pink. When he mopped the wood floors, they were sticky and gummy and had to be re-mopped. When he ran the dishwasher, he left chunks of food on the dishes that caked and dried on. I started to wonder if he was really this incompetent... .or doing it on purpose so I had to do all the cleaning?

[Jessica84]

And find a note on my computer... .

FF,

- Mop the living room, dining room and kitchen

-make dinner

- clean our bathroom.

I am too tired to continue going to work & come home & still do the stay at home parent chores.  Work on vehicle AFTER (she also underlined after) you take care of the house - if you don't wan to mop as often take off your boots.

ff wife

other than my explanation of the underlined after... .that is word for word what I have.

My plan is for that note to go with me to MC next week... .and we can discuss it their.

My guess is she has given up tasking via email and text and is trying this.

I have asked for input at various times on what she would like me to do... .as in "honey... .I'm about to work on this or that... .do you care which?  "... . 

It is rare for me to get a usable response... .

Thoughts?

FF

This looks like a usable response to me. She's telling you in which order she wants things done (hence the word AFTER being underlined). I'm confused. Why does a to-do list need to be discussed in MC?

[formflier]

 

She is not the boss of me... .

She has been trying this type of thing via text, email... .

Refuses to ask.

Refuses to provide an answer in a conversation.

She may answer... .but if I ask... .would you like me to do x or y.

"If you would have done x when I told you to do it... .we wouldn't have this problem... ."

Or something like that... .

"You never do what I tell you to do... ."   is one of my favorites... .  (Hint:  Nope... .I don't... .)

I don't tell her what to do... .and she doesn't tell me.  If we can have a respectful conversation... .and come to an agreement... .then that will probably get done.

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

She is not the boss of me... .

She has been trying this type of thing via text, email... .

Refuses to ask.

Refuses to provide an answer in a conversation.

She may answer... .but if I ask... .would you like me to do x or y.

"If you would have done x when I told you to do it... .we wouldn't have this problem... ."

Or something like that... .

"You never do what I tell you to do... ."   is one of my favorites... .  (Hint:  Nope... .I don't... .)

I don't tell her what to do... .and she doesn't tell me.  If we can have a respectful conversation... .and come to an agreement... .then that will probably get done.

FF

I agree with this as my wife is about the same at times.  My wife loves the control factor of telling people what to do because her life is out of control most of the time.  It's like what I used to tell my kids when they were 2-3... ."Use your words."