Is it common to not want to work for anything?

[Parents! Get help here!]

Dear Friends, I am trying to figure out if this is a typical teen girl thing, or something common among those with BPD traits.  Almost 14 y/o DD is extremely talented in music and athletics (softball is her passion).  She has informed us that she loves playing in the tournaments, that the girls are really nice, but practice is too hard (2 hours twice a week and there is a lot of conditioning and such).  She is thin and known for her speed.  She is signed up for band for this coming year in HS (first year there) but now says they require too much time in the summer (1 week band camp the end of this month for percussion - oboe player but plays percussion for marching, and 1 week the second week in August).  We have had the little discussion about how anything worth doing is worth doing well and rewards come from hard work.  She is also the type who loves to be busy and we have noticed that her depression and anxiety are much less when she is involved in things she enjoys.  Have you noticed this with your BPD child?  Do we push and encourage these things, or allow her to drop out once she fulfills her responsibility (like just finishing this softball season).  I should add that DH and I want her involved in these things (though SHE chose them, not us) because of the socialization - she loves the softball girls and when we went to band orientation she was hugging and receiving hugs, the kids seemed so nice and welcoming, etc.  Advice?  Thanks!

[BioAdoptMom3]

Dear Friends, I am trying to figure out if this is a typical teen girl thing, or something common among those with BPD traits.  Almost 14 y/o DD is extremely talented in music and athletics (softball is her passion).  She has informed us that she loves playing in the tournaments, that the girls are really nice, but practice is too hard (2 hours twice a week and there is a lot of conditioning and such).  She is thin and known for her speed.  She is signed up for band for this coming year in HS (first year there) but now says they require too much time in the summer (1 week band camp the end of this month for percussion - oboe player but plays percussion for marching, and 1 week the second week in August).  We have had the little discussion about how anything worth doing is worth doing well and rewards come from hard work.  She is also the type who loves to be busy and we have noticed that her depression and anxiety are much less when she is involved in things she enjoys.  Have you noticed this with your BPD child?  Do we push and encourage these things, or allow her to drop out once she fulfills her responsibility (like just finishing this softball season).  I should add that DH and I want her involved in these things (though SHE chose them, not us) because of the socialization - she loves the softball girls and when we went to band orientation she was hugging and receiving hugs, the kids seemed so nice and welcoming, etc.  Advice?  Thanks!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[cleanandsober]

This is a really good topic!  Your daughter sounds like a very special girl who has so much potential.  It is wonderful that she is involved in these activities.  Our 16 year old is not athletic but likes music and art.  I have noticed that our daughter struggles with self-discipline and motivation when it comes to having to practice something.  We had her in guitar/voice lessons a few years ago.  She was willing to go to the lessons, but never practiced.  She said practicing was "boring" and would sometimes comment "what's the use, I'll never get any good at it".  Maybe it's the black and white thinking, I don't know.  She had interest in signing up for photo club, but than changed her mind when she found out how much extra time was involved to do projects, etc.  I think our daughter just gives up to easily before she even tries, possibly avoiding the emotion of fear/failure?  I have read that some BPD's seldom live to their full potential.  Your guess is as good as mine! 

[griz]

Sounds like you wrote this about my daughter.  Talented in many areas but does not like to work for it.  Also a gifted Oboe player, dropped it because practice is boring and as soon as it got a little difficult she switched to drums.  Also very good at drums but once again did not want to put in the work.  This has truly been a pattern all her life.  Played soccer as a kid, loved the social aspect but complained incessantly about practice. 

Here is the interesting part.  DD is now 18.  Just last week she told me that she recognizes this in herself. That she has a very hard time following through on things that require her to work.  The only advice I have is that I tried to keep DD doing things until it became an issue for all of us.  No use going to the Oboe tutor if she was going to torture me there and back.  We talked this week about this and decided that this might be something that she needs to work on.  I encouraged her to talk to her T about it.  Maybe she needs to work at things in small steps.  See herself starting and finishing something.

I don't think this is necessarily a teenage things.  I think that some people are just more motivated than others.  I pointed out to DD that her dad has the same issue.  Has great ideas, starts lots of things but never sees them through.  DH is not BPD but this has been an issue all his life.

Griz

[Reality]

Hi all,

Hmmmmmm... . very talented... . Hmmmmm... . doesn't like to work at skills... . not motivated... . Hmmmmmm

Abstract random learning style... . non-linear, non-sequential... . jump from one thing to the next... .

I see this as smorgasbord-styling, rather.  Want to taste as much as possible to have tons of comparison data... . want all the details of the picture in order to hone a finely-tuned perspective... . takes a different time-line... .

Is anxiety a natural fuel for such a learning style?  What is wrong with this way of being?  Where is the radical acceptance? 

Gunderson says everyone just needs to get out of their way.  It is a different way, but a very enriched one. 

Yes, a little linear-sequential is a good support, as a balance.  Structure rocks!  They need protection for the very reason that their ways are atypical. 

Musings,

Reality

[qcarolr]

The trouble comes from cultural system and having to figure out how to become self-sufficient and independent as an adult. Learning to tolerate the distress of boredom is part of maturing. Life is just plain boring sometimes. So how to build a balance of the fun, excitment with the drudge of day to day life?

So many people, such as the judge in her DWAI case, ask what she does all day long that she is too busy to do what court asks and her answer is 'hang out with friends'. Like this is her job. DD complains to me of being bored - yet will not undertake anything to overcome that boredom -- smokes pot to numb it all out so hanging out becomes enough. IMHO anyway.

This is a really valid question. I can see it already in my gd7. It is one of dh and my greatest frustrastions, and a huge block to being able to sincerely validate those feelings. Or accetp the kickback to enforcing our boundaries.

Need a brain-game that will reprogram our kids for motivation to be bored.

qcr  

[Reality]

Yes, this is a great topic, very thought-provoking and complex. 

Are they really bored or are they afraid to tackle something new or do they simply not have the tools to persevere?  Or do they mature way later?   Or do they not understand the process?

Or is it just the way they are? 

Reality

[sunshineplease]

This describes my UD18 perfectly. Great potential in multiple areas (good at most things) but no stick-to-itiveness at ALL! Drives me insane. Efforts to push her failed (":)on't tell me what to do!" efforts to let her off the hook failed ("You think I'm dumb/untalented!". Since her father and I can't win, we're just trying to stick to our boundary issues and letting her figure out how to make things happen for herself. No idea where it will lead, because the disconnect between ability, effort, and logical consequence is still in practical effect. In other words, she says she knows she has to put in effort, but can't yet do it or deal with the fallout when she doesn't. Time will tell... .

[jellibeans]

I remember a similar post a few months back... . I do think that a pwBPD sometimes doesn't try for the fear of failure alone. The self esteem is so low they can not see their worth. My dd has many talents... . she is good in many sports but will not participate in any now. I see her drawing sometimes but she will rip up her work... . and I think it is very good but not good enough for her standards... . are they perfectionist?

[peaceandhope]

Sounds like people are decribing my dd to a T. Very very talented, but poor follow through... . Starts something with lot of vigor. Explains to people how great she is doing something(blah blah blah) and then it falls through. If I question her , then the emotional dysregulation and rage cycle starts.

I think many BPD people might be having ADHD or like symptoms and hence the above behaviors.

peace

[Reality]

In the business world, people like this are called ideas people.  They are highly-valued for their creativity and ability to solve problems in nuanced ways, to come up with novel solutions.  They energize the workplace. 

Thay are paired with the meat and potatoes guys, the ones who can articulate the necessary steps to achieve said ideas. 

No pathology, just style.

The real question is how to help these ideas kids get through a system that doesn't understand their way of being. 

Radical acceptance... . and also tons of hard work and structure on the part of the family and community... . and love... .

Validation and boundaries... .

Labels are helpful, but they are not exhaustive.  I spoke with 2 highly-educated people the other day, who think the concept of ADHD will go the way of the hysterical woman. 

Just saying... .

Reality

[Reality]

 I was just doing some writing to Pine River Institute, which made me think suddenly of their daily programming.  First, a hearty nutritious, tasty breakfast then an hour to two hours of outside exercise.  After that, school for several hours.

Is it possible that simple healthy habits and a strong structure, the same every day, plus kind, intelligent, caring adults... . ?

They need the right setting... .

Reality

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[griz]

Reality:  You really made me think about this in the business place as DD and I were just discussing it.  DD has been low lately.  Bored by life, nothing that excites her and this gets her down.  She told me that she wants to find something to do that will excite her.  Her college classes right now are boring, doing the gen ed's like Math and Science, her part time job in my office is boring (I agree) she spends hours logging in outdated files into a computer system.  She was complaining that life is just boring.  This made me think.  She is not much different than me in this way.  I work in an office and I pointed this out to her, where most of my contemporaries have very mundane lives.  It works for them.  Them come in and do the same thing every day, and everyday is routine.  I guess they find comfort in the routine or it just works for them.  I on the other hand am the opposite.  My bosses biggest joke is that I start almost every sentence with, "I was just thinking" or " I have an idea" or "what do yo think about this".   I am constantly coming up with new projects better ways to do things and to grow his business.  My job is never boring because I don't allow it to be.  My boss has also told me that he realizes that he must continually give me more responsiblity because he is fully aware that I will get bored if I keep doing the same thing every day. 

I pointed out to DD that she has the power to make her life as mundane or interesting as she wants.  When I came into my job I was hired as an administrative assistant.  There are four other woman who were hired in the same capacity and still are admins.  They seem to be happy with this.  I am not longer an admin.  My salary has almost doubled since I started and I am always being asked to sit in on meetings and focus groups and I am continually moving up the ladder. She knows the woman in my office and sees the difference so we decided lst night that we would make a list of the things she wants to do in life and then we would spend sometime this week figuring out what it will take to get there.  I am trying to get her to focus on harnessing her own power to change or make her life what she wants it to be. 

Griz

[jellibeans]

Griz

I think you hit the anil on the head with that explaination... . there is a place for everyone in this world and not everyone approaches life in the same way.

[Thursday]

This is an interesting conversation, with a lot of layers. Each of us with a person with BPD has pointed out similarities and there is so much a sense of who we each have by nature of their differences.

I read the title of this thread and thought... . yes, my SD not wanting to work for anything is pathological.

She is, however, not a perfectionist.

There is so much fear within her. She would say her main fear is growing up. I think the feeling of self-motivation and accomplishment leaves her feeling too much that she is "grown up" which to her seems like she doesn't have support. In other words, if she is a baby, then being taken care of is the work of others, not up to her... .

The paradox is that in order to position her to achieve what she must (self-sufficiency) we must pull ourselves out of the arena of supporting her financially. She has become complacent with not having a job and with making do with whatever she can scrape together for herself. She cycles in and out of self-loathing when she lacks what she sees and something she needs (her car, cigarettes, social activities, daily AA meetings). When she has what she needs she is not motivated to make changes in her lifestyle to accommodate future needs.

Since being on her own she is seldom bored as her day is almost entirely recreation, as qcarolr describes her DD. Since there is no perfectionism, there is no resultant striving to do anything well or accomplish certain things. She seems to exist solely in the moment and if her needs are met in the moment she doesn't think of the next moment.

She lives primarily with her grandmother although she does spend a lot of time couch surfing depending on the tolerance of her friends. The grandmother is frustrated because she washes only one item at a time when she does her laundry. We saw this behavior here too. She was not allowed to do laundry in this manner, too wasteful. To counteract this house rule, she shopped for new clothing when she had the money and when she didn't she helped herself to our clean towels by entering our bedroom (we then put locks on the doors) washed blouses in her sink until she was banned from doing this as she was ruining the flooring in her bathroom from soggy, dripping clothing and leaving items drying on the patio furniture - bras and panties on the patio UNCOOL

Reality asks the same questions I have,

Are they really bored or are they afraid to tackle something new or do they simply not have the tools to persevere?  Or do they mature way later?   Or do they not understand the process?

Or is it just the way they are?  

She is so immature, hard to believe she won't gain more maturity at some time.

She seems not to be able to grasp the process of cause and effect.

Her inability to learn from experience seems to be a lack of something, some tool missing from her toolbox.

In my SD's case, I see her bored when she doesn't have social interactions. She will cry "bored" if the activity is not of interest to her and her interests are very limited, stilted even. TV, the phone, movies. Gossip. Drama. No hobbies, no passions. She likes to watch stuff that makes her laugh.

She shuts down if she has to ongoingly work for anything. Ruled by impulse. Seeks immediate gratification. I honestly don't know how we got her out of high school with a diploma. She gave up on school around 9th grade. Once she found drugs, school was not happening from an academic staNPDoint, it was simply a place to socialize and get high. If a teacher got in the way of this, she was belligerent, intolerant, disrespectful.

I don't know what causes her to be this way, it is clearly the way she is. I am not very optimistic that she will ever have interests, a greater sense of self, goals, dreams about her future. I've talked to her about many aspects of this and she glazes over... . physically... . I can see it in her eyes.

Can it be laziness? She seems incredibly lazy. I've seen her pick stuff up with her toes rather than bend over. She doesn't sit on the couch, she lays on the couch. When she used to straighten her hair, she would go months without washing her hair so that she wouldn't have to repeat the effort. Still, she did make the effort to do this now and then. Little breakout moments.

Her best behavior comes in little breakout moments. Darn that glimmer... . it plays with our peace when it goes away.

Thursday

[qcarolr]

Reality asks the same questions I have,

Are they really bored or are they afraid to tackle something new or do they simply not have the tools to persevere?  Or do they mature way later?   Or do they not understand the process?

Or is it just the way they are?  

She is so immature, hard to believe she won't gain more maturity at some time.

She seems not to be able to grasp the process of cause and effect.

Her inability to learn from experience seems to be a lack of something, some tool missing from her toolbox.

In my SD's case, I see her bored when she doesn't have social interactions. She will cry "bored" if the activity is not of interest to her and her interests are very limited, stilted even. TV, the phone, movies. Gossip. Drama. No hobbies, no passions. She likes to watch stuff that makes her laugh.

She shuts down if she has to ongoingly work for anything. Ruled by impulse. Seeks immediate gratification. I honestly don't know how we got her out of high school with a diploma. She gave up on school around 9th grade. Once she found drugs, school was not happening from an academic staNPDoint, it was simply a place to socialize and get high. If a teacher got in the way of this, she was belligerent, intolerant, disrespectful.

I don't know what causes her to be this way, it is clearly the way she is. I am not very optimistic that she will ever have interests, a greater sense of self, goals, dreams about her future. I've talked to her about many aspects of this and she glazes over... . physically... . I can see it in her eyes.

Can it be laziness? She seems incredibly lazy. I've seen her pick stuff up with her toes rather than bend over. She doesn't sit on the couch, she lays on the couch. When she used to straighten her hair, she would go months without washing her hair so that she wouldn't have to repeat the effort. Still, she did make the effort to do this now and then. Little breakout moments.

Her best behavior comes in little breakout moments. Darn that glimmer... . it plays with our peace when it goes away.

Thursday

Thursday - you are describing DD27 to me. Almost exactly. Except the AA piece -- DD claims to only smoke pot and cigs, which for the most part I see as true when I am around her.

For me, I do not label DD's lifestyle as 'lazy'. I think she lives exactly in the moment. If things are interesting, acitive , feel-good then all is well. In the next moment if things are not how she wants, she can turn into a raging beast. I do work daily to accept that she is who she is. And the more exposure I get to the neuroscience of relationships - from different sources - I am coming to believe there may be some limits to long term changes for her. At least until she is able to choose to accept treatment. She is a powerful externalizer - she is a survivor in this respect. She lingers in a self-aware place so briefly and it feels so terribly awful that she quickly moves to find a scapegoat to push these feelings onto. I am no longer there for this victim role with her. There alwasy seems to be someone else nearby to fulfill this need for her.

This all feels so cynical of me - not really giving up hope. Just accepting reality. DD will always need to find others to take care of her basic needs. Basic needs met = good enough for that moment. Or maybe this is a skill she has - to get her basic needs met on a daily basis. A person to hang out with, some kind of shelter (these days it is a couch or floor in somone's apartment and not under a bush in the park -- moving up in her world?), food, clean dry clothies, cigs and someone with a lighter. Oh, that would be the friend who has the cigs and lighter. well unless I have bought her some cigs and then she is the friend with... .

So that is a key    She finds others that are lack self-sufficiency skills and together they can cobble together a life. A harsh life. I would never choose to live this way. DD says she does not choose - yet by staying away from treatment she is choosoing.

My answer to Reality's questions:  ALL OF THE ABOVE, depending on the moment.

Sorry this is so long. One more thing. I really see the brain research, and mega-analysis of lots of research being publishied now, as a path to better understanding for me. This helps with my Radical Acceptance. My hope is for new treatments that are shorter time frames (ie. 6 momths vs. 1-2 years), less threatening (ie. more connection via technology and less via talk, though both will be needed), affordable and accessible. I can see this happening along the path of neurofeedback therapy as one part of a multi-modal support network. And it will need to have peer support - ie. all my DD's dysfunctional group will be participating, holding each other accountable to keep going, and there will be no stigma.

And perhaps this new treatment path will be one that my DD can step up to without so much fear-of-failure. Maybe my setting of boundaries and finding the path to becoming more validating and less critical with her will open her up to the courage that she already has to survive in so many of her moments now. And she can finally find her place in this world - find some peace and joy for more than a moment. To see herself as part of the future to be anticipated with excitement.

qcr  

[griz]

I don't know if this will help at all but we are giving it a try.  DD saw her T today and I encouraged her on the way to see if her therapist had any ideas.  When she came out she told me that she has no idea of what she wants to do with her life but she really loves to cook.  Her T told her that maybe she should think about ways to practice her cooking, but she should plan on making quite a few things before she gives up or gets bored. I thought it was a great idea and told her it was okay to not be great or even good in the beginning.  We then laughed at how one year on the Jewish Holidays I made about 6 quiches and then forgot about them until one of our guest thought they smelled something burning and I had burned all of them.

I suggested that Sunday is Father's Day and what an awesome gift it would be for her Dad and Granddad if she planned and made the dinner for them.  Our plan is that she will use my favorite cookbook and the internet and I once she finds her menu we can go shopping together (or I can drop her off at the supermarket and she can do it herself).  She really liked this idea and thought that it might be fun to be in charge of dinner one night a week.  I feel like cooking is a good start because it is something that she can see success in in a relatively short period of time and maybe she can build on this.

Griz

[qcarolr]

Griz - this sounds like a great idea, and with your support she can be successful with this. How do you find the balance of what to step back and let her flounder a bit with, and when to step up to give greater support? This is the hardest for me.

And so thankful that your D works with her T. Our kids need a whole team of people on their side - and that they KNOW are on their side.

qcr  

[Reality]

qcaroir,

Our kids need a whole team of people on their side - and that they KNOW are on their side.

So true!  So true!  You hit the nail on the head... . if you don't mind, I will use that sentence in my Will's Way writing.  It is bringing tears to my eyes.

You know, I have the shivers, because I heard Tom Jackson speak this week and he said the same

thing, although I like your way of putting it better.



griz,

I love the cooking idea.  When the kids at PRI won't do schoolwork, they work with the nutritionist and cook in the kitchen.  Something about preparing food... .

It is unbelievably cool to hear about your conversations with your daughter.  So good!

John McKinnon of Montana Academy has written two books about the failure to mature that plagues some young people: An Unchanged Mind:The Problem of Immaturity in Adolesence and To Change A Mind.  Great insight!  I will re-read them to see what might be pertinent. 

Reality

[pessim-optimist]

Ok, I'll just throw it out there:

Any of the kids left-handed?

[qcarolr]

YEP!

DD and gd's daddy are both left-handed. GD is prominantly right handed but really very ambidextrous in many things except writing.

For DD this is double whammy with her right-brain based learning disability. Her whole left side is weaker and less organized -- well maybe this has a connection to her right brain. So complicated.  She does cook, but struggles to get the veggies chopped up nice and even or fine. Cooks with big chunks - works for me. Took her having to live away from home in her brief marriage to learn she could do this. She refused to help me in the kitchen.

Continue to wonder how much of this was my own perfectionism and DD fear of failure. Did she think better to just not try, than to not please me. We are on such different wave lengths. Well, not just DD. Many people have trouble getting what I am trying to say. Maybe my brain is a little scrambled too.

Part of my acceptance is forgiving myself for being me when DD was young. I did the best I could with the skilss and tools I had access to each moment of each day. Some days more than others. Same for DD - she is always doing the best she can in that moment. So hope she connects with someone that hooks her into some kind of acceptance of treatment.

Then maybe she is OK with her transient lifestyle for now. She really does not want to have to face the trauma of working. Of being regulated - on a schedule - predictable life. She needs change and excitement and spontanaity. And she knows this about herself. And she needs a friend that can be the rock for her. Her friend G was this for her - he is very organized, intelligent, and loves her way more than she loves him -- she just needs him. And now he is back in jail - meeting his probation curfew was just more than he could take. And he has definite alcohol/pot issues. As all in their transient community do -- that is their normal. I need to remember this. DD keeps saying dh and I are weird, and all their friends think we are weird (though none say this to me). And I have started saying - well, yes you and your friends may think I am weird, and I like myself just the way I am. I will not change for you. You will not change for me. How can we be kind to each other?

My mind is wound up tonight - sorry if this is a ramble. Thanks for listening. Hope relevant to this topic.

qcr  

[BioAdoptMom3]

Our kids need a whole team of people on their side, and that they KNOW are on their side.

qcr  

Yep!  Your quote is so interesting because with our own DD we have found that when someone she loves and respects suggests something, she is much more likely to run with it!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Vivgood]

I think the the cooking is brilliant griz

And more meaningful than it appears at 1st glance, IMO. Food=Love is the primal equation for mammalian life;the 1st  tangible proof that one is valued.  When you feed someone, you are demonstrating you "love" them. Its powerful. What a great way for your daughter to take ownership of HER power.

vivgood

[pessim-optimist]

I was just re-reading this thread. I am also reading the book "The Primal Wound", that is about adoption and issues connected to that.

So, maybe my thinking is a bit elsewhere than in BPD land, however, I thought that there are a few issues connected to BPD that might contribute to the "not wanting to work for anything":

Impatience, low frustration tolerance, and poor impulse control all impair the process of learning (or make it unpleasant).

Combined with perfectionism (some pwBPD), fear of failure and fear of rejection together with poor self-esteem make it a recipe for disaster.

Who in their 'right mind' would deliberately, repetitively expose themselves to those risks and unpleasantness?  

Solution? I think it lies in combination of building distress tolerance AND having enough positive experiences through the learning process to keep them hooked in to keep going.

I think it is only when/if they mature to the point where they can hold the vision of the end result and work towards it WHILE TOLERATING the distress and risks of learning that they will develop the "stick-to-it-iveness"

BioAdoptMom: I was wondering if your dd might be interested in a discussion of what she enjoyed about playing softball and music (whether it was the game or friends etc.) and how she thinks she can recreate those positive experiences or simply make them continue... . Would it be easier for her to continue softball or try something new, or does she have any other ideas of how to keep herself busy and therefore happy?

[mamachelle]

I was just re-reading this thread. I am also reading the book "The Primal Wound", that is about adoption and issues connected to that.

So, maybe my thinking is a bit elsewhere than in BPD land, however, I thought that there are a few issues connected to BPD that might contribute to the "not wanting to work for anything":

Impatience, low frustration tolerance, and poor impulse control all impair the process of learning (or make it unpleasant).

Combined with perfectionism (some pwBPD), fear of failure and fear of rejection together with poor self-esteem make it a recipe for disaster.

Who in their 'right mind' would deliberately, repetitively expose themselves to those risks and unpleasantness?  

This is fascinating to read.

In my SS10 and SS15 -- I see this also ties into poor social understanding.

Mix in mild to severe learning disabilities as well.

Poor understanding of boundaries.

Mild paranoia and huge fears of failing.


DD13 and 16 both Nons will work for things they want. But not so much for what they don't. Rooms a mess. Self centered but able to be very giving and empathetic. Have to be reminded to do chores a million times. Grades iffy for DD16 but nothing pathological. She just got a job and started driving... .

As my kids get older these frustration/giving up issues become more apparent with the boys esp since I have Non children to compare.


mamachelle