It's hard to empathize when I feel attacked

[agoodperson]

Well, things got out of hand last night when I tried to draw a line saying I wouldn't talk with her while she was yelling, belittling me, name-calling and raging.  She came into the bedroom, still raging, and making fun of and dismissing my attempt at boundary setting.  She then began blocking my way to get out of the bedroom to which I had retreated.  "You want to hit me and shove me out of the way?" she yelled.  "No, I never want to do that." I replied. I stepped back, and I was finally able to leave, and I left for most of the evening going to my place of work.  I returned about 5 AM.  I left again about 9:45 AM.

Today, we were supposed to have independent session with our therapists.  She is always hesitant to go because "they never help. All they want to do is talk."  My therapist is sick so I won't have a session, but she has decided to go to hers.  (It's quite a drive.) She wrote her therapist about having a possible phone or Skype session, but she is going to go in person.  She wrote a fairly extensive email to the therapist from a joint account, knowing I would see the therapists reply and her original email.  The email is certainly from her perspective and, of course, makes me out to be the total bad guy, all my fault, and she tried to be so level-headed and then "had" to get upset.  I am trying to figure out how to respond to her, or just let that go and focus on sharing my feelings with her.  It is SO hard to empathize with her when I feel so attacked.  I know I shouldn't take it personally, and most of the time I can handle it, but sometimes my ADHD impulsivity takes over and I say things that don't help the situation, but seem to pour fuel on the fire.  She gets so totally out of emotional control, and projects all kinds of stuff on me.

So, I am working to try to focus on my feelings and share with her.  I plan on sharing some of the things that confuse, frustrate, baffle, and hurt me... .my feelings reactions to them.

Trying to use the S.E.T. model as best as I can.

Beside myself, but praying for peace and positive growth.  I love her deeply.

AGP

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[DreamGirl]

Well, things got out of hand last night when I tried to draw a line saying I wouldn't talk with her while she was yelling, belittling me, name-calling and raging.  She came into the bedroom, still raging, and making fun of and dismissing my attempt at boundary setting.  She then began blocking my way to get out of the bedroom to which I had retreated.  "You want to hit me and shove me out of the way?" she yelled.  "No, I never want to do that." I replied. I stepped back, and I was finally able to leave, and I left for most of the evening going to my place of work.  I returned about 5 AM.  I left again about 9:45 AM.

So I think you did OK here. Taking a time out is a good tool to use so everyone can calm down. 

How did you express your boundary (no talking when name-calling, yelling, etc.)? What did you say?

[agoodperson]

Something like, "I want to talk, but I won't while you're still so angry, yelling, calling me names and belittling me."  I said it in the calmest way possible.  Then, I went into the bedroom.

What hurts is all the stuff she told her therapist in email, and that I don't have any input.

[agoodperson]

Well, she just texted and says she's not going to her appointment - not traveling.  Sigh. 

She also texted, "I cannot say what I feel anymore as it is misunderstood.  When you don't hear me I feel livid.  It is as thought you cannot hear.  As though you are deaf."

Interestingly that is exactly what I feel from her!  "I cannot say what I feel anymore as it is misunderstood."

[ColdEthyl]

Well, she just texted and says she's not going to her appointment - not traveling.  Sigh. 

She also texted, "I cannot say what I feel anymore as it is misunderstood.  When you don't hear me I feel livid.  It is as thought you cannot hear.  As though you are deaf."

Interestingly that is exactly what I feel from her!  "I cannot say what I feel anymore as it is misunderstood."

 I'm sorry hun I know exactly how you feel sometimes it's like we speak different languages. I've had rages like that where my dBPDh blocks me in or tries to taunt me into physical altercation. It's so if you do it... .they have that over you as well.

My H and I are both working on our communication. He says he just wants to be heard, even if I disagree. Just let him get his thoughts out, and I can say whatever after that.

It does not go that way all the time... .of course. But, we are both working towards that. Was she yelling and being abusive right away, or was there some conversation before it that triggered her?

[DreamGirl]

Something like, "I want to talk, but I won't while you're still so angry, yelling, calling me names and belittling me."  

Boundaries are mostly about "us". What "we" are willing to allow into our lives. You've allowed her to do certain things and now you're not willing anymore. You're changing the rules. While necessary, it can also be hard on the other person.  

I also understand just how hard it is to draw a line in the sand when the other person is so upset.

I find that it helps when I don't tell my husband how he feels (you're angry) or what he's doing "wrong" (belittling me). I also take time outs based on how *I* feel. "I'm really upset right now and I don't want to say anything I might regret. I'm going to take some time to cool off." as opposed to something like "You need to take a break, you're obviously upset". (which I've done!)

No one likes to be told how they feel or how they need to be acting.

I also try to draw the line when he's calm, not when he's angry. So like in this situation, I might take the time out. Then when he's calm, I might say something along the lines of "I know it's hard when we get so upset, and we feel like we can't always help ourselves, but I just can't participate in these arguments with all the name calling and screaming at each other. It just feels to hurtful and it's not really reflective of a respectful way to communicate."

And when it happens again, I say "I understand why you're so upset, remember when we agreed that we weren't going to call each other names?".

And if it ensues "Remember when I said I wasn't really going to participate in the discussion when name calling is a part of it?"  

Have you seen our Boundaries - Living our Values workshop?  

[Moselle]

agoodperson,

Sorry you had to experience this kind of thing. But it's really impressive that you are putting in your boundaries. Boundary insertion and reinforcement is usually something neither party is familiar or comfortable with, but it is healthy. So well done.

Hang in there and keep it up!

[agoodperson]

Yes, CE, there was conversation going on, and it was about a subject which pushes a button for her: feeling she was taken advantage of or not treated well.  Two incidents recently have been with a property transaction we were working on with a man, and the other with a "boss" for whom she had gone in to help out in a pinch.  She gets herself worked up thinking about them and gets angrier and angrier.  It feels like that if I don't join her in the way she expresses her anger, then I am not on her side.  I didn't say something exactly the right way, and didn't talk on long enough, to show her I did think she was valid in saying/feeling she (or we, in the property issue) was not treated right.

DG, thanks for reminding me of the way to own my boundaries.  I do need to remember to say why I need a boundary for my own need to cool off or reflect sincerely on what's going on.  It is sometimes hard because I am often accused of "never getting back" to whatever it was.  Believe it or not, I have said pretty much the same exact thing when we have been in a good, healthy, calm discussion about things.  We have been working on the agreement that if we get too emotionally charged, that we will take a break.  She doesn't seem to realize that she gets worked up easily, gets a "tone", and louder.  So when I say we need a break, I am "running away."

I think I did see the Boundaries-Living our Values workshop, but will look and go through it again.

Moselle, thanks for your support!

Peace,

AGP

[ColdEthyl]

Yes, CE, there was conversation going on, and it was about a subject which pushes a button for her: feeling she was taken advantage of or not treated well.  Two incidents recently have been with a property transaction we were working on with a man, and the other with a "boss" for whom she had gone in to help out in a pinch.  She gets herself worked up thinking about them and gets angrier and angrier.  It feels like that if I don't join her in the way she expresses her anger, then I am not on her side.  I didn't say something exactly the right way, and didn't talk on long enough, to show her I did think she was valid in saying/feeling she (or we, in the property issue) was not treated right.

DG, thanks for reminding me of the way to own my boundaries.  I do need to remember to say why I need a boundary for my own need to cool off or reflect sincerely on what's going on.  It is sometimes hard because I am often accused of "never getting back" to whatever it was.  Believe it or not, I have said pretty much the same exact thing when we have been in a good, healthy, calm discussion about things.  We have been working on the agreement that if we get too emotionally charged, that we will take a break.  She doesn't seem to realize that she gets worked up easily, gets a "tone", and louder.  So when I say we need a break, I am "running away."

I think I did see the Boundaries-Living our Values workshop, but will look and go through it again.

Moselle, thanks for your support!

Peace,

AGP

When she's talking about how she feels, does it annoy you? It is import for pwBPD to be able to express their feelings. It doesn't matter if you agree... .just that you listen. You don't have to tell her she's right, but just say you understand... .that feeling must be hurtful... .i wouldn't like it if I felt that way either... .that kind of stuff.

[agoodperson]

I do my best, but she almost insists that I feel the same way she does or I am not on her side... .sigh

[ColdEthyl]

I do my best, but she almost insists that I feel the same way she does or I am not on her side... .sigh

Yep. They do. They need that validation. It drives me up the wall sometimes, too.

Here's the thing that us nons can do about this. Ok... .she has a right to her feelings, right? Right. Ok.

Does that mean we have to agree with them? Nope.

Do we, as nons, HAVE to tell them we disagree? No. There are instances, but this wouldn't be one of them. She *feels* victimized. OK. We can all agree it sucks to feel victimized, so comment on that.

You are not validating what she said, only her feelings on it. Does that make sense?

[Moselle]

I do need to remember to say why I need a boundary for my own need to cool off or reflect sincerely on what's going on.  It is sometimes hard because I am often accused of "never getting back" to whatever it was.

There is a lot of wisdom in this.  Owning the boundary for our own good.

I wouldn't be too concerned about never getting back to whatever it was. Sometimes that's the objective of taking time out   

Most times what they are picking a fight about has very little to do with their real issue. Their logic goes something like this.

"I am angry and hateful. Someone must have done something to make me feel this way."

This fundamentally how they see the world.

A convenient target is a spouse in this delusion but cold be anyone.

A spouse will breathe funny, or have cut their hair wrong, or have forotten to take out the trash, or said something in anger, or looked at that woman. Anything imperfect becomes the reason for an argument and their anger.

We go into negotiation mode or fix mode about the issue they've raised, take it personally,  get hurt, participate. But remember that this not at all what this is about.  It's about their feeling which they're looking to blame on someone.

If we give them time out to deal with their emotions. "The reason" often dissapears and we don't bring it up again.

When they start about "us not getting back to whatever it was" it is a way of guilting us and again shifting responsibility from them onto us. Don't buy it. Just give a knowing smile Say something positive and walk away. If she's blaming or projecting onto me I sometimes throw a curveball and give her projection straight back to her by saying "I'm confused. I'm sorry you feel so upset, but are you saying that YOU are selfish,  unhelpful,  never contribute,  ... ."

The answer is invariably "No" but you will see the uncertainty in her eyes. She knows you understand the game. 

[agoodperson]

Hey all.  Well, I am happy to say that my wife and I are again on the positive side of things.  We are working to develop better communication skills in our relationship by using our "I" statements and owning our feelings.  I am working on better sharing my feelings with her.  So far so good.

Keep us in thoughts and prayers.

Thanks,

AGP

[DreamGirl]

Hey all.  Well, I am happy to say that my wife and I are again on the positive side of things.  We are working to develop better communication skills in our relationship by using our "I" statements and owning our feelings.  I am working on better sharing my feelings with her.  So far so good.

Keep us in thoughts and prayers.

Thanks,

AGP

So happy to read this, agoodperson!

It sounds like both of you are working really hard to make this work.

[ColdEthyl]

Hey all.  Well, I am happy to say that my wife and I are again on the positive side of things.  We are working to develop better communication skills in our relationship by using our "I" statements and owning our feelings.  I am working on better sharing my feelings with her.  So far so good.

Keep us in thoughts and prayers.

Thanks,

AGP

Glad to hear it! let us know if you need anything we are all here for ya!

[ydrys017]

I do need to remember to say why I need a boundary for my own need to cool off or reflect sincerely on what's going on.  It is sometimes hard because I am often accused of "never getting back" to whatever it was.

There is a lot of wisdom in this.  Owning the boundary for our own good.

I wouldn't be too concerned about never getting back to whatever it was. Sometimes that's the objective of taking time out   

Most times what they are picking a fight about has very little to do with their real issue. Their logic goes something like this.

"I am angry and hateful. Someone must have done something to make me feel this way."

This fundamentally how they see the world.

A convenient target is a spouse in this delusion but cold be anyone.

A spouse will breathe funny, or have cut their hair wrong, or have forotten to take out the trash, or said something in anger, or looked at that woman. Anything imperfect becomes the reason for an argument and their anger.

We go into negotiation mode or fix mode about the issue they've raised, take it personally,  get hurt, participate. But remember that this not at all what this is about.  It's about their feeling which they're looking to blame on someone.

If we give them time out to deal with their emotions. "The reason" often dissapears and we don't bring it up again.

When they start about "us not getting back to whatever it was" it is a way of guilting us and again shifting responsibility from them onto us. Don't buy it. Just give a knowing smile Say something positive and walk away. If she's blaming or projecting onto me I sometimes throw a curveball and give her projection straight back to her by saying "I'm confused. I'm sorry you feel so upset, but are you saying that YOU are selfish,  unhelpful,  never contribute,  ... ."

The answer is invariably "No" but you will see the uncertainty in her eyes. She knows you understand the game. 

Profound, and so true.  Thank you.