Need some boundary help on H verbally shutting me down, please

[Not normal]

This is such a powerful thread!

What a great read for all dealing with a pwBPD.

Thank you all for sharing! We need to get our game on with these sufferers... .

Peace to all Jedi masters... . im still a youngling!

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[DreamFlyer99]

"It's important to me to learn how to talk without making you feel attacked?"

Why do you need to tell your partner this? If you are asking them they are not going to teach you. An illogical person cannot teach you a logical method

If you are not asking, but merely defending yourself in a conflict then you are heading toward JADE.

making you feel attacked

You are telling them how they feel. Ask, dont tell, better to say ":)o you feel attacked when I say XYZ, that is not my intention". This is a concise example SET, you are paying attention(S) asking (E),clarifying your position (T)

AHAH! NOW it's starting to make sense! Thank you, Waverider! I am struggling to make sense of what seem like the twists and turns of conversation with a uBPD. Clearly I need to read up on JADE and SET. Sometimes I have difficulty trying to find the things on the site I want to read up on, but i'll hunt them down... . SO--no telling him he feels defensive when I bring stuff up (EVEN THO IT IS OBVIOUS.) i'm trying to understand the "tell" and "ask" situations, so I think I need to yack less on here and read more.

If you are not asking, but merely defending yourself in a conflict then you are heading toward JADE.

Sorry for being a newbie and maybe asking a Q that has been posted hundreds of times... . I have been able to figure out what SET means and works, but what does JADE stand for and how does that work?

I would really appreciate some help with that!

Scout99

Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain... . it puts you in the defensive because you are trying to use truth, logic and fairness. They are are using whatever makes you retreat from your position, they have no rules. They will keep pushing until you are unsure of yourself and compromise on your boundary.

In effect it doesn't work and needs to be avoided at all costs

Phew--I was gonna have to go look that up to understand. Now I know my middle name must be JADE, cuz that's how I spent the past 30 odd years with my uBPDh, trying to defend myself by arguing and explaining that he had me all wrong, I could never understand--we have spent HOW many years together and you clearly don't have a clue about who I am? (signed, DreamFlyer Jade 99. ) Silly me, not realizing for decades that logic and rational thought did not have a place there!

And how on earth did you figure out what SET meant? impressive. You definitely have the intelligence of the 99 tribe. LOL

Scout, my Scandinavian relative from the great 99 tribe,

Reading your post made me wonder how it is you have picked 2 different people to be in relationships with who have PDs? i'm curious since it's no picnic!

Dear DreamFlyer99!

Thanks for inviting me into your great 99 tribe!   I feel honored to recieve that!

And about your spot on reflection... . If you only knew how many times I have wrecked my brain with that particular question... . Because I really don't try to seek it out... . To the contrary... . So far I have only been able to figure out two things... . 1: I do have a great tolerance for peoples "irregularities", that is I am a rather accepting kind of person when it comes to peoples peculiarities and differences. And I wont discard or judge someone for seeming weird or withdrawn or extreme or whatever. Quite frankly I think most people are somewhat weird, so who am I to judge?

2: I am somewhat kind and generous as a person and however smart, also a bit gullible when it comes to believing there is something good in everybody... . And that we all deserve a break... . And for some reason I think maybe those kinds of traits in me, makes me interesting to men with PD's... .

I don't know... . ? Thankfully I am currently in therapy so maybe I will find out!  

He will have to start out seeking help if I am to be willing to enter into a more long-term solid relationship with this man. Thats my boundary! That's the same boundary I set up for my ex N, when I finally had been able to figure out what the h*ll was wrong with him... . I then told him I thought we needed help. And he chose to discard me... . And I let him... .  Thanks again DreamFly99 my 99 tribe sista' for raising this question too, it's important to vent and talk about our motives or what is driving us too!

Scout99

Wow Scout99, your paragraph of explanation describes me to a T! Apparently I am too kind and forgiving and accepting and seem to be drawn to people with issues. And I also am one of those who feels like second chances (all the way up to 30 odd years of chances, apparently) are a given. So yes, I have accepted that sometimes that means you get stepped on. There must be a similar mentality to many of us nons. It's like with the Fibromyalgia I have, it seems to be a "gift" given to many people who are the caretaker type, who have given their all to taking care of others, and eventually their body says "BOOM! Here's a "gift" of Fibromyalgia to make you start taking care of YOU!"

i'm interested in how a person puts it to someone who can be so explosive that "I can't handle this anymore if you don't get some psychiatric help!"

This is such a powerful thread!

What a great read for all dealing with a pwBPD.

Thank you all for sharing! We need to get our game on with these sufferers... .

Peace to all Jedi masters... . im still a youngling!

It is good to share--I do feel so much less crazy knowing there is a commonality to these relationships and that i'm not alone. I do wish though that it mattered to H that his way of living/reacting is causing ME suffering too! But I guess that's why we need to learn about the JADE and the SET and the IGSI? (I just made that up. it stands for "I'm going slowly insane." 

I too need to learn from the Jedi Masters, tho I feel much too old at 59 to be a youngling!

Step by step and little by little I am learning... . tho I still can't seem to learn how to quote right!

[bruceli]

"Bruceli my "same boat" friend:

Ah! So your w knows she has a PD? That's something, and I'd imagine it puts a different spin on it. My H is undiagnosed and doesn't seem to be interested in going to therapy to figure out why he can't talk about anything deep between he and the woman he's been married to for nearly 37 years... . this is difficult. And validating, isn't it supposed to be things that aren't just telling them what they want to hear, but more about letting them know that we do hear them? i'm trying to do that, but I definitely need to read up on it! That was a lovely compassionate thing you said in response to her. "

Let another fly last night... . DW says... . " you are the most un-affectionate man I have ever been with" to which my simple reply was... . "Why do you feel that way?"  Total shut down on her part and no reply, no argument and no ragging.  Just a quizzical look in her eye.  She that I would try to defend that one but I didn't... . However due to not getting the response that she expected, she proceeded, after much thought, to what I call HYPER-CONTROL the rest of the evening till ambien kicked in... .  But on the bright side no arguing and noragging... .

[bruceli]

"It is good to share--I do feel so much less crazy knowing there is a commonality to these relationships and that i'm not alone. I do wish though that it mattered to H that his way of living/reacting is causing ME suffering too! "

I believe it does matter to them and once again use DW as a template for this... . She now readily admits to doing what she does as a matter of control, inflict pain and cause unbalance.  All projection and done to make THEMSELVES feel better.  Example... . I am in so much pain and I feel that you are not so I will take all that I know about you and use it against you so you can be in as much pain as I am... .   Nothing like hearing your SO tell you that one huh?

[DreamFlyer99]

HEY! I didn't do too badly on that quote thing! maybe there's hope for me learning some of the useful stuff about dealing with my personal BPD!

"Bruceli my "same boat" friend:

Ah! So your w knows she has a PD? That's something, and I'd imagine it puts a different spin on it. My H is undiagnosed and doesn't seem to be interested in going to therapy to figure out why he can't talk about anything deep between he and the woman he's been married to for nearly 37 years... . this is difficult. And validating, isn't it supposed to be things that aren't just telling them what they want to hear, but more about letting them know that we do hear them? i'm trying to do that, but I definitely need to read up on it! That was a lovely compassionate thing you said in response to her. "

Let another fly last night... . DW says... . " you are the most un-affectionate man I have ever been with" to which my simple reply was... . "Why do you feel that way?"  Total shut down on her part and no reply, no argument and no ragging.  Just a quizzical look in her eye.  She that I would try to defend that one but I didn't... . However due to not getting the response that she expected, she proceeded, after much thought, to what I call HYPER-CONTROL the rest of the evening till ambien kicked in... .  But on the bright side no arguing and noragging... .

And SHE'S the unaffectionate one, right? So was this your basic case of projection? Or was she just seeing if you'd take the bait? Interesting. My H doesn't bring up anything as a test, he'd rather watch tv or be on his computer or talk about work or half-listen to me talk about my day and perhaps grunt like he's heard me... . He and I have talked about my great need for affection (only one of the unaddressed needs in my life) but i'm the one who has to get close to him/lean up against him/ASK for affection! and HUH. My H is an ambien user too. But he takes lots of stuff and drinks enough too that i'm never sure when it's a good time to talk/try to be affectionate, etc so I mostly don't. It's not a good way to live. YOU however seem to be making headway! Very cool. You're really learning how to avoid taking the bait and more proactively choose your response.

i'm just so frickin' tired of the dance. It's killing me.

"It is good to share--I do feel so much less crazy knowing there is a commonality to these relationships and that i'm not alone. I do wish though that it mattered to H that his way of living/reacting is causing ME suffering too! "

I believe it does matter to them and once again use DW as a template for this... . She now readily admits to doing what she does as a matter of control, inflict pain and cause unbalance.  All projection and done to make THEMSELVES feel better.  Example... . I am in so much pain and I feel that you are not so I will take all that I know about you and use it against you so you can be in as much pain as I am... .   Nothing like hearing your SO tell you that one huh?

NO WAY! She SAID that? Whoa! Very self aware of her, yet still so stinking twisted. I have told H that when he acts out it sets me back a good 2 weeks on my pursuit of physical health with my Fibromyalgia. So at least he knows it DOES hurt me. And i'm not kidding, I always go into a flare because of the underlying pain response to the emotional pain of it, and 2 weeks seems to be the minimum it takes to come out of the flare and be capable of the same intensity of workout as I was prior to the acting out.

(I even sound tired to ME today!)

[bruceli]

"And SHE'S the unaffectionate one, right? So was this your basic case of projection? Or was she just seeing if you'd take the bait? Interesting. My H doesn't bring up anything as a test, he'd rather watch tv or be on his computer or talk about work or half-listen to me talk about my day and perhaps grunt like he's heard me... . He and I have talked about my great need for affection (only one of the unaddressed needs in my life) but i'm the one who has to get close to him/lean up against him/ASK for affection! and HUH. My H is an ambien user too. But he takes lots of stuff and drinks enough too that i'm never sure when it's a good time to talk/try to be affectionate, etc so I mostly don't. It's not a good way to live. YOU however seem to be making headway! Very cool. You're really learning how to avoid taking the bait and more proactively choose your response.

i'm just so frickin' tired of the dance. It's killing me.


And you are the big winner... . 3 for three... . Again, our SO's must be twins if not atleast somehow related.

I don't anymore because this is part of her game.  Say that I don't but when I do and did... . she would pull away, say not now, swat my hand away, etc.  Another of hers is that she wants me to persue her/chase her, then says that I hang around her too much and that she needs space.  How do you chase/persue someone who doesn't want you around? LOL... . Crazy making for sure huh?

Same here, beer wine, hards, ambien, xanax, valium.  I have NEVER known her to pass up a drink of any kind... . Daily the equivalent of 5-8 beers... . last night being the 4th... . 5 beers in about 3 hours... . oh and 1/2 an ambien and a full valium because she ran out of ambien

[waverider]

Hey guys can we try to use the standard quote buttons and formats, it gets a little hard for the newer members in particular to keep track of who's quoting what with all the different use of colors and fonts for quotes.

Waverider

[DreamFlyer99]

Hey guys can we try to use the standard quote buttons and formats, it gets a little hard for the newer members in particular to keep track of who's quoting what with all the different use of colors and fonts for quotes.

Waverider

Sorry Waverider! I kept trying to use the quote format on that one further up but I couldn't get it right so after an hour I gave up and just wrote the darn thing with their names in color. I wanted to answer but just couldn't figure out the quotes that day for whatever reason... . I think maybe I should just answer in a separate reply for each person if i'm having too much trouble?

[waverider]

Hey guys can we try to use the standard quote buttons and formats, it gets a little hard for the newer members in particular to keep track of who's quoting what with all the different use of colors and fonts for quotes.

Waverider

Sorry Waverider! I kept trying to use the quote format on that one further up but I couldn't get it right so after an hour I gave up and just wrote the darn thing with their names in color. I wanted to answer but just couldn't figure out the quotes that day for whatever reason... . I think maybe I should just answer in a separate reply for each person if i'm having too much trouble?

If you want to use split quotes, use the quote tab instead of reply. Delete the bits you dont want then, then copy and paste the bracketed quote html codes above and below the bits you want. That will put them in assigned individual quote boxes.

Quick option to qoute part of a text is to highlight text you want and click the speech bubble at top of reply box, this will put them in dialogue boxes but they will not be attributed

If you are in the reply box page you can also insert quotes by scrolling down to the prior posts under and select to insert those quotes into your reply. Then edit as per first option

[DreamFlyer99]

Quick option to qoute part of a text is to highlight text you want and click the speech bubble at top of reply box, this will put them in dialogue boxes but they will not be attributed

"Speech bubble"?

[waverider]

Quick option to qoute part of a text is to highlight text you want and click the speech bubble at top of reply box, this will put them in dialogue boxes but they will not be attributed

"Speech bubble"?

post reply box, tool bar above, yellow square second from right, next to hash symbol. This will place quote brackets in reply box, paste your quote between them this will give

example

This will be unattributed quote, though you can replace first quote bracket with author qoute html>>

example

[goldylamont]

goldylamont:

I think the main things i'm pulling from what you say are that by knowing and trusting yourself and your instincts (which I think matches up with being "grounded" you were able to "hear" what was going on with the ex more clearly and see where she was going with her actions. The extra valuable part of that for me reminds me of my T telling me that "you have good instincts, you just don't trust them." i'm learning to trust them finally after years of struggling with the "truth" both my mother and H have put on me in their projecting ways. My mother likely had uNPD traits and definitely uBPD traits, and I think the vulnerability I saw behind the scenes in her might have been because over the years she may have had some tiny realizations that her blaming things on everyone else didn't quite ring true, but she was one who "didn't need counseling." (Okay, but all your children sure did! LOL)

So my biggest takeaways from you are: be open to and aware of what is going on in the interchange and look for patterns, and then trust my instincts on them, and I might just learn something! And remain conscious of my responses. (Why's it gotta be so hard?)

I also, when I think back to last year, remember some very aggressive verbal attacks that seemed much more just that, an aggression, rather than a defensive stance. this I could see might be manipulation. He's much more in a place now to REACT in a push away action than then. Interesting.

DF99 -- YES! precisely, exactly, uh huh, yes you put into words what i was trying to convey better i think than i have.   

i speak openly of manipulation, punishment and revenge, and becoming aware of these behaviors from a pwBPD... . because really you already know it's going on... . but sometimes our conscious mind doesn't want to see these things. or admit that we are experiencing them.

you mention that you have been married over 3 decades to your H--and this speaks volumes to the amount of love that must exist between you and your H to make the r/s work. so i always want to be careful when mentioning manipulation/punishment/revenge for the simple reason that nonBPD's already have to go through so much devaluation in the r/s that looking at things from this perspective can be painful b/c in a way, are we opening the door to devaluing the r/s even more?

So, I *don't* mean to imply that anyone's SO is only an all-bad-evil-person all the time. however, i've read plenty of posts from people suffering from BPD to know that many are well aware that they want to punish, that they purposefully start fights (sometimes for no reason, sometimes to control you) and openly admit to being manipulative and cruel, on purpose. not all will admit or know this, but many do. they may have trouble controlling these urges, or even feel remorse sometimes, but they are often aware of their behaviors. And in these situations, if you are being punished and/or manipulated--how do you know? Well, how do you feel? If you are grounded and can keep some composure, then trust these feelings and you will have access to truths that your body has been yelling to your mind to try to make it understand for a long time. In my case, my instincts, my body was telling me for a long time "hey, you *know* you're not violent or scary towards her, right?... . this person isn't afraid of you--this person is punishing you" but it took a while for me to trust this feeling, to gain the composure to know exactly what to do to confirm that i was right.

dysregulation may show a lack of control but not necessarily a lack of awareness

[waverider]

dysregulation may show a lack of control but not necessarily a lack of awareness

There is acute awareness of the moment, but the fight or flight rush they are on overrides appropriate control or perspective. The motive of that moment is precisely that. That moment only. It is not the same motive as previous moments or any following moments, it is survival mode in the face of perceived threat.

In fact the awareness is heightened, the ability to show extreme mental dexterity when dysregulated is one reason you do not try going head to head with a pwBPD by trying to wing it.  This is the time you pull out your preconsidered boundaries.

[DreamFlyer99]

Goldylamont said:

i speak openly of manipulation, punishment and revenge, and becoming aware of these behaviors from a pwBPD... . because really you already know it's going on... . but sometimes our conscious mind doesn't want to see these things. or admit that we are experiencing them.

Oh poo. I think my T would like to say that to me, but she knows how I am unwilling to assign mean traits to anybody. (My much more in-touch daughter calls 'em like she sees 'em, but me, I gotta believe the best of everyone, even in the face of someone obviously trying to hurt me!)

so i always want to be careful when mentioning manipulation/punishment/revenge for the simple reason that nonBPD's already have to go through so much devaluation in the r/s that looking at things from this perspective can be painful b/c in a way, are we opening the door to devaluing the r/s even more?

Holy crapness, yes, this is true. But I am finding that as I understand more and more who each of us is in the relationship, the more clear the boundaries become, and the boundaries are meant to clarify the relationship and so are a thing of "good," right?

And in these situations, if you are being punished and/or manipulated--how do you know? Well, how do you feel? If you are grounded and can keep some composure, then trust these feelings and you will have access to truths that your body has been yelling to your mind to try to make it understand for a long time. In my case, my instincts, my body was telling me for a long time "hey, you *know* you're not violent or scary towards her, right?... . this person isn't afraid of you--this person is punishing you"

Well, MY body has certainly been yelling at me for a long time! And I didn't listen, so BOOM, Fibromyalgia! Under it all I did think I knew who I was and what my intents were, I just didn't trust myself enough to stand firm in those things. But I KNEW in my heart that I wasn't mean, I always tried to be respectful, but somehow my head didn't believe that, it believed the lies i'd been told about the person I was. But I just thought "what the heck this man has gone around the bend" but it often felt like he was just reacting to a perceived wrong in an extremely angry way, which was bad enough since I always thought "how can someone who is supposed to love me treat me like this?" but never got to the punishing idea. My emotional alarms just went off in "MEAN!" "INTENTIONALLY HURTFUL!" kinds of ways, which probably equals the manipulation/punishing thoughts. Cuz I felt like he did intend harm, it wasn't "accidental" that he called me by my mother's name when he knew she was the person who had hurt me the most.


WAVERIDER said:

There is acute awareness of the moment, but the fight or flight rush they are on overrides appropriate control or perspective. The motive of that moment is precisely that. That moment only. It is not the same motive as previous moments or any following moments, it is survival mode in the face of perceived threat.

In fact the awareness is heightened, the ability to show extreme mental dexterity when dysregulated is one reason you do not try going head to head with a pwBPD by trying to wing it.  This is the time you pull out your preconsidered boundaries.

"THAT MOMENT ONLY" and "SURVIVAL MODE IN THE FACE OF PERCEIVED THREAT"

Those REALLY help clarify for me-- this must be why it feels like the pwBPD hasn't collected any new knowledge about me between their episodes of off-the-rails rawness. They are still in that child mode of just scrambling to fight off the hurt, but now they have big-people words and actions to fight with. This clarifies why logic/explaining/etc. doesn't work and ONLY those "preconsidered boundaries" will work: i'm basically dealing with a 3 year old at the moment in the adult's survival mode.

Lots of interesting yet quite basic concepts to mull over. And lookie! I found the speech bubble! thanks Waverider

[DreamFlyer99]

One more small realization occurs:

Since each of us is the only person to pull out our "inner grown-up" as needed, my job in the situation is to reinforce the boundaries I've decided ahead of time will take care of me, since I have no ability to get the other person to pull out that momentarily missing grown-up.

Huh. Makes so much sense.

[waverider]

Just to compound the issue, you have authority over a child having a tantrum, but not over BPD adult, especially if they have had a lifetimes experience of throwing tantrums... . You are dealing with professional tantrum throwers. Try giving them "time out" and see what happens... . That's why you have to  resort to giving YOU "time out"

[goldylamont]

And to think at one time I believed I understood about boundaries! Ah to be young and foolish again... .

If I try to bring anything up about the 2 of us like "what could we do to learn better communication that doesn't make either person feel defensive?" I get The Shut Down: "Just Stop." I hate this, I readily admit, since it feels very authoritarian and not the least bit like a partnership. I have tended in the past to just walk away since if I don't he'll go into the RageMasterSupreme and roar at me for making everything something HE has to change and let me tell you while i'm at it all the things YOU do to make ME upset!

i'm better at dealing with the roaring since I've learned that defending the truth just leads to more roaring... . I don't always catch right away that I should "take a time out" and have often realized i'm still sitting there like a pup who just got yelled at, with my head down and my ears back... . but one step at a time, right?

The big question for me is how not to give him what he wants (to make me go away) since I feel that would be rewarding negative behavior, right? while still preserving my own needs to speak without getting roared at.

Thoughts? Please?

DreamFlyer99 i wanted to quote your initial post to get back to the initial issue you were asking about. There's good advice here about leaving the situation if your H gets disregulated or rages, however initially you mention that before this happens you get The Shut Down ( I love that term by the way  ) which is the situation i've been trying to address. in fact, i'm realizing now that both of the situations i mentioned, i feel like i got the most insight out of it because i figured out the whole play and called her on it before she was able to rage to manipulate her way out of the conversation.

[DreamFlyer99]

Just to compound the issue, you have authority over a child having a tantrum, but not over BPD adult, especially if they have had a lifetimes experience of throwing tantrums... . You are dealing with professional tantrum throwers. Try giving them "time out" and see what happens... . That's why you have to  resort to giving YOU "time out"

Oh Waverider, TRUE DAT.

We are in a place of relative calm at the moment, but I still find him "high maintenance" at times since he's used to having other people do things for him at home and sometimes can use up all the air in the room. I just had surgery and am supposed to be keeping it on the down-low so he doesn't ask ME for stuff, he asks our son! But needing to rest is a great reason to just take myself away and have a nap or read in another room. He has the big need to just have me nearby (I assume it's the "I can't stand to be alone or lonely" thing) and i'm quite enjoying giving myself the occasional needed "time out" just to be alone! And yup, I need to keep drumming into my head, "I only have control over my own actions" till I get that firmly in place and realize I have no authority over his moods and tantrums. (I love that "professional tantrum thrower" thought! So true.)

The big question for me is how not to give him what he wants (to make me go away) since I feel that would be rewarding negative behavior, right? while still preserving my own needs to speak without getting roared at.

Thoughts? Please?

DreamFlyer99 i wanted to quote your initial post to get back to the initial issue you were asking about. There's good advice here about leaving the situation if your H gets disregulated or rages, however initially you mention that before this happens you get The Shut Down ( I love that term by the way  ) which is the situation i've been trying to address. in fact, i'm realizing now that both of the situations i mentioned, i feel like i got the most insight out of it because i figured out the whole play and called her on it before she was able to rage to manipulate her way out of the conversation.

AHAH! I see what you're saying! And as you can see, I "see" in Capitalized Phrases, such as The Shut Down. All of life just feels more organized to me that way.

[goldylamont]

DreamFlyer i've been meaning to come back and post again--thanks for your response to my last post, I'm glad it caused an "AHAH" moment 

So, my last post here was actually edited by the moderators as I inadvertently posted a quote that I had gotten elsewhere on the internet. So not all of the text is there.

Soo, staying within board guidelines I won't quote but will explain the last of what I was trying to convey--this has to do with looking at abuse from a pwBPD as sometimes Overt, and other times Covert. And I feel there is a lot of great advice and info here about how to deal with Overt/obvious emotional abuse (meaning your SO is completely disregulated or raging at you). In this case, you just leave the situation.

However, I feel your initial question though was regarding Covert abuse--what you call The Shut Down. So, this is specifically what I was trying to address--Covert abuse. Not raging, not out of control behavior where the best thing is to just let it drop, leave and protect yourself. But, before the person escalates to this point, sometimes your instincts are telling you that something is wrong... . you feel manipulated or as if the person is punishing you. And I would feel this "covert" punishment in a variety of ways. Sometimes I would feel that arguments were being instigated with me even when I was in the mode of trying to calm things down, walk away and make peace. Other times I felt just as you did, that I was being "shut down" so to speak as punishment--basically being disregarded or ignored as punishment, but I didn't understand why. I think you already get what I was saying but just wanted to clarify as i hadn't gotten a chance to come back and update this since it was edited.

thanks DreamFlyer, best of wishes to you!

[DreamFlyer99]

However, I feel your initial question though was regarding Covert abuse--what you call The Shut Down. So, this is specifically what I was trying to address--Covert abuse. Not raging, not out of control behavior where the best thing is to just let it drop, leave and protect yourself. But, before the person escalates to this point, sometimes your instincts are telling you that something is wrong... . you feel manipulated or as if the person is punishing you. And I would feel this "covert" punishment in a variety of ways. Sometimes I would feel that arguments were being instigated with me even when I was in the mode of trying to calm things down, walk away and make peace. Other times I felt just as you did, that I was being "shut down" so to speak as punishment--basically being disregarded or ignored as punishment, but I didn't understand why. I think you already get what I was saying but just wanted to clarify as i hadn't gotten a chance to come back and update this since it was edited.

thanks DreamFlyer, best of wishes to you!

Interestingly, Goldylamont,

today was another case of the "covert ops" from my H. I said something he didn't like and i'll even admit I probably could have said it more kindly, but his reaction was to just walk out of the room. when I walked into where he was a couple of hours later, he got up and left THAT room. I actually asked, "soo, are you punishing me?" His answer, "no, I just feel depressed so I'll go upstairs where you don't have to have me around." (my comment had been that i was frustrated about him not coming home to do something we were going to do together.) But that was the first time I connected the idea of his actions which speak so loudly possibly having a punitive reasoning behind them. He seems to typify the emotional immaturity part of his uBPD, and that always has made me feel guilty. So now, if I put 1 + 1 together, if I am being treated like I Have Been Bad by telling him my feeling about the situation, there is some effort to push me to react in a way that will make him feel better about himself (he can't have been in the wrong by not doing what he had agreed to!) then it must = 2, some manipulative behavior whether subconscious or not.

My clue that he himself felt guilty about not doing what he said he'd do is that the guy I have trouble getting affection from came and put his arms around me I think to try to soothe me out of being upset (this was before I made The Comment and he left the room.)

[goldylamont]

Interestingly, Goldylamont,

today was another case of the "covert ops" from my H... . But that was the first time I connected the idea of his actions which speak so loudly possibly having a punitive reasoning behind them.

You are throwing out the words and trusting what your body is telling you. You are awesome for that! 

DreamFlyer I was reviewing some highlights from one of my favorite books and immediately thought of our discussion. I hope this doesn't sound silly but I feel happy (proud?) of how you are trusting your body/emotional instincts in these situations, reconnecting the mind with body.

Below is an excerpt from a beautiful book that I hope you like. The book is written by a well known horse trainer who started one of the first equine therapy centers using horses to help women (and men) suffering from trauma and abuse. The trainer herself was previously in an abusive relationship and through her work with horses rediscovered her intuition, will and connection to her subconscious. I hope you enjoy!

**in this excerpt, Joy is a patient to the author. Jason was Joy's former (abusive) lover. Noche is the name of the horse used in the therapy session.

The ability to lie, to oneself and to others, is prominent in postconquest consciousness. While animals will occasionally fake injury to draw a predator away from their young, their ability to deceive is limited by one important reason: They can’t speak. Lies are almost exclusively based in language. People indoctrinated into the postconquest mindset are even more susceptible to deceit because they’re conditioned to downplay sensory, emotional, behavioral, and intuitive input in order to focus on what someone is saying. They become mesmerized by intellectual arguments and verbal justifications for all kinds of selfish, destructive actions and unspoken animosity. I endured a barrage of insults and disrespect from my first husband for one simple reason: He consistently told me he loved me, assuring me that his criticisms were designed to help me become a better writer, a better person, a more beautiful woman. Never mind that I felt increasingly worthless.

For seven years, I was able to focus on the idea of love while ignoring reality. My mind actually colluded with my husband. It was my body and my emotions that finally convinced me I was unable to survive any further under those conditions. The month before I left him, I literally vomited every morning as I was getting ready for work. After ruling out pregnancy, I had to face the fact that I literally couldn’t stomach his treatment any longer. Similarly, Joy’s mind remained under Jason’s spell until Noche mirrored what she was actually feeling in her body. Once she reconnected with her senses, her emotions, and her intuition through work with the horses — and began changing her life in response — she became much less easily victimized by friends and family. A series of persistent physical symptoms began to lift as well. During the first few months of our association, Joy had been plagued by debilitating abdominal cramps for which doctors could find no cause. These difficulties were finally written off as “psychosomatic,” a term Joy mistakenly interpreted as “imaginary.”

“Psychosomatic illnesses can be painful and even life threatening,” I replied when she told me of the diagnosis. “It’s just that conventional doctors have trouble treating these conditions because the source of the problem lies outside their jurisdiction, so to speak. Psychosomatic symptoms arise in response to stressful situations — relationship problems, unfulfilling jobs, unresolved trauma, and abuse. Just because your cramps don’t seem to have a physical origin doesn’t mean they’re imaginary. In this case, you’re lucky you’re human. Horses literally die from the same symptoms you’ve been experiencing.”

Kohanov, Linda (2010-09-07). The Tao of Equus (pp. 142-143). New World Library. Kindle Edition.

[DreamFlyer99]

Glad i'm not a horse! i'd be down... .

DreamFlyer I was reviewing some highlights from one of my favorite books and immediately thought of our discussion. I hope this doesn't sound silly but I feel happy (proud?) of how you are trusting your body/emotional instincts in these situations, reconnecting the mind with body.

My T would say something similar. She made the comment sometime back, "your instincts are good but you don't trust them." As I try to trust them I feel more wholly myself, yunno? It's like a rebirth of chunks of me in a way. So, no, that doesn't sound silly!

Thanks for thinking of me. The book looks interesting for sure.