Apparently I'm the one.

[Butterfly12]

Yesterday was ok. I was able to keep in my head that idea that to take the love in your heart you spread that all around. Don't focus it on one person who cannot receive and appreciate it. Appropriately we had a family gathering last night and I was able to spread that stuff all around. IT felt amazing. And I kept feeling like it was a wonderful thing for my children to see me smiling, laughing, and being loved and respected by other adults. That's not something they see very often.

My husband tried very hard to keep me from bringing our children, as he thinks my family is "messed up" and "crazy," but I flat out ignored him and took him on the approval he gave earlier in the week to trade the time with our children for this one special family occasion. He actually tried to go back on it, which is appalling. And might have really triggered me if I hadn't simply ignored him.

That's the thing. They know how to get us... .after such long years together they know exact words, phrases and actions that will simply drive us insane... .and learning how to just walk away without a sassy remark back is my hardest lesson.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

  and learning how to just walk away without a sassy remark back is my hardest lesson.

How do you feel after learning this lesson?

 

FF

[Butterfly12]

Jeeeez.

Yesterday was a day of my husband trying to get me to engage all day long. Through text messages. And I spent the whole day either not playing or saying: "What you are saying is hurting my feelings. Please stop."

And then it just got worse and worse.

I don't understand. What is the term for when they just suddenly crack and try and try and try to get you to engage to feed their need for involvement? And what are we supposed to do when they do that? Did I do the right thing?

I always feel better if I simply don't engage- as in- don't text back or walk away... .but I don't know if it's the right thing. I'm getting so tired of the push/pull.

[whitebackatcha]

Jeeeez.

Yesterday was a day of my husband trying to get me to engage all day long. Through text messages. And I spent the whole day either not playing or saying: "What you are saying is hurting my feelings. Please stop."

And then it just got worse and worse.

I don't understand. What is the term for when they just suddenly crack and try and try and try to get you to engage to feed their need for involvement? And what are we supposed to do when they do that? Did I do the right thing?

I always feel better if I simply don't engage- as in- don't text back or walk away... .but I don't know if it's the right thing. I'm getting so tired of the push/pull.

An extinction burst. If you give in to the drama, it only reinforces his behavior. When you don't give in, he escalates to try to get you to engage. If this is a boundary that is important to you, being consistent in not engaging is crucial. It sounds like you are doing the right thing! It just doesn't feel like it when you're in the middle of it.  

[babyducks]

Hi Butterfly12,

It could be a couple of things,   he could be projecting his negative emotions onto you.  A kind of "I feel rotten I will bait some one else until they respond and then we argue and I get the cathartic release of dumping negative emotions" approach to self soothing.

It could be a I feel bad about the state of my marriage and I have to prove that Butterfly12 is at fault and has treated me badly so I can justify my rotten behavior.

It could be he emotional dsyregulated and was venting excess emotion.

It's always better to not engage when the conversation becomes negative, disrespectful or detrimental to anyone's peace of mind.  

My opinion is you did a good thing by attempting to enforce a boundary.  We talk about boundaries here a lot and how they are helpful to us.  

I would have probably tweaked how you expressed the boundary just a little.

I would have said "I feel hurt by what is being said in these texts.  I am turning off the phone for now and will talk to you again tomorrow."

Can you see how that is different from what you said?

My boundary uses I statements,   I feel hurt, not you are hurting my feelings.   It's a subtle thing but it changes the focus.  It puts me in control of my feelings.  

And since I feel hurt it's my job to do something about it.   Hence I am turning off my phone.  Bing Bang Done.

Since I know pwBPD suffer from abandonment issues I am also making it clear I will be back tomorrow.

Then I really do have to turn off the phone and stop looking at the text messages.  And trust me I know that isn't easy.

Does that make any sense?

'ducks

[sempervivum]

It's incredible to read other's experiences so close to my own. Understanding that it is absolutely impossible for them to take any responsibility for their own actions... .and trying to figure out how to live beyond it. In the relationship or not. What is truly daunting to me is that regardless of our marriage, our relationship with have residual effects in the lives of our children. Forever. So how to proceed and continue on holds a heavy weight.

Yes, it seems we all share similar experiences. I am too quite sure that your h projected himself or as you say, held the mirror. My conclusion coming from a life with BPDh is that whoever wants to survive with a BPD partner has to learn a new language. When I communicate with my h during his dark phases I really feel like listening to another language and I had to learn to speak it, too. I find that my understanding is better than speaking, which is actually a fact with foreign languages.

Or you may call it reading between the lines or anything else: another computer program ... .

Some ten years ago I heard a similar open confession from my h and it was also a monologue, but not in form of mirroring, more like playing a victim. It was a turning point to me, not so much because of his confessing, more because of my reaction to it. I found myself in a state of detachment or lack of compassion: I did not believe his role of a victim, it suddenly looked so funny to me. I did not laugh, of course, but found it easier to listen. It was as if I found a scale with which to measure the truth of his sentences. Namely one of them was: "If anything happens to me... .(and he gave me a sort of his wishes for his burial)" It was said with purpose to alarm me and I wasn´t alarmed I just listened and nodded and just said that I understand.

(He didn´t harm himself, he just needed to be listened and God knows a BPD wants it in a distorted way.)

It is very difficult to dive in their language and stay calm. When my day is good than I function inside his world, but when I am stressed from work or in a bad mood I have no patience.

I totally understand you and I think you are strong. One really needs inner strength not to fall apart when living with a BPD partner.

[formflier]

  My conclusion coming from a life with BPDh is that whoever wants to survive with a BPD partner has to learn a new language.

A critical point... .

Need to be able to interpret this language without being judgmental about whether or not they should even speak the language.  It is... .what it is.

Take comfort from the fact that there is a language... .and an "order to the disorder".  That will help anyone order their life again... .reduce chaos... .more predictability.

FF

[Butterfly12]

I would have turned off my phone. The problem is we have three children together, and he is allowed contact with them. Also, the baby was sick yesterday and I was at work all day.

Today, if he starts in, I will say the children are fine, politely, and then turn off the phone.

When I read through again the text messages, I was incorrect in my wording. I did say that my feelings were hurt, not "you hurt my feelings." I understand completely the difference and it is huge in dealing with my husband. Owning my own emotions, even if they are completely discounted and unimportant.

[formflier]

I would have turned off my phone. The problem is we have three children together, and he is allowed contact with them. Also, the baby was sick yesterday and I was at work all day.

Today, if he starts in, I will say the children are fine, politely, and then turn off the phone.

Not sure I understand how having children requires a phone to stay on... .I may be missing the point... .as it appears your future plan is to turn it off.

Try to simplify thinking... .

He is saying abusive or hurtful things... .phone off and let him know approx time you will check back in with him.  No need to modify that for sick kids, kids, work, weather... .any of that... .

Think about good better best. 

Saying you hurt my feelings is good (but... issues with saying you... )  My feelings are hurt is better... .(I statements)... .

What is best?  I would suggest acting in a way that protects your feelings and maybe not saying anything to him about it.   (Many time actions that are consistent are more powerful than words... .)

Thoughts?

FF

FF

[babyducks]

Nice job owning your own feelings.   You are half way there.

I get that you were at work and needed to leave the phone on in case of a call from the sick child at home.

The point is to stop a non productive conversation.   Mind,  he won't want to curtail a circular conversation.   He is getting something out of it.  A place to dump his negative emotions.

Your presence in a conversation is a gift not a  requirement.

One of my go to phrases is, I need to stop this conversation now, we can talk about something else or I can talk to you later.

[formflier]

I need to stop this conversation now, we can talk about something else or I can talk to you later.

Nice... .

What is the usual response?  Or is there one... .

This make is not so "my way or the highway... .gives the other person a choice.



FF

[babyducks]

Response varies.   Lately it's been we move on to a different topic.

[Butterfly12]

And so... .This past couple of days while I was mostly off line brought up some new, very frustrating events.

FIRST: he texts me on Tuesday after I told him I had to cancel our counseling this week to tell me that he had written me a letter he wanted to read which contained, as he put it, his "last resort."

I call the counselor, and because he can't put us on at all for the next month if we cancelled, and tell him plans change and we are back on.

So I show up to counseling. My husband is late. And when he does come he says he isn't going to read the letter. Instead he angrily starts saying to me, "what is it you want to fix this marriage? Do you want me to come crawling back to you on my hands and knees begging forgiveness and owning that I am the one with mental issues? That's never ever going to happen because it isn't MY fault."

And I calmly say that I came today with the intention of listening, and that it isn't my space to talk right now. I said I am not prepared to have this conversation. I would like to hear how you feel, as that is what you said yesterday in your text message.

He balks, and this goes back and forth a number of times, with me saying simply, "No." and him saying "FINE. It's a power struggle you need to win. I'll read it." And this letter goes on and on and on, as with many philosophical references, but in the end makes ultimately no sense. I ask what he means by mentioning both Eckhart Tolle and Carlos Castenada, using their terms for "ego" and "pain body." He can't answer. He has no answer.

In the final moments of the session, after I respond carefully to this letter, saying, yes, I believe that marriage is full of hard times and that we are meant to work gently to the other side, respecting each other and being mindful of each other's hardships.

He explodes yet again, and says to me, "You know what I want? I want you to stop being angry. The explosive anger you have towards me needs to stop. Like RIGHT NOW. And the way you tell me your feelings? Over and over and over and over? Because you think I don't hear you ***(This had been a short piece earlier in the session)****, STOP. I don't want to hear it."

My sister and my dearest friend don't know what to tell me. I sit and can't believe I'm in this. I'm trying to cope the best I can. The "explosive" anger he talked about is the fact I get intensely bad anxiety attacks. Only in the past couple years since all our problems began have they been really really bad. (But honestly he sees none of this, really. Granted, yes, I do blow up at him from time to time. Because he knows EXACTLY how to push my buttons. Much less since I've been reading and learning about BPD.)

[babyducks]

Hi Butterfly12,

Ah #$% this stinks doesn't it?  I have been stuck in those reality distortion whirlwinds with my partner and #$$ it absolutely sucks.

Instead he angrily starts saying to me, "what is it you want to fix this marriage? Do you want me to come crawling back to you on my hands and knees begging forgiveness and owning that I am the one with mental issues? That's never ever going to happen because it isn't MY fault."

Well that is HIS bottom line huh.   He is not going to accept his part of this.   And he is going to twist reality until it fits something he can tolerate.   

He explodes yet again, and says to me, "You know what I want? I want you to stop being angry. The explosive anger you have towards me needs to stop. Like RIGHT NOW.

This looks like projection to me.

And the way you tell me your feelings? Over and over and over and over? Because you think I don't hear you ***(This had been a short piece earlier in the session)****, STOP. I don't want to hear it."

And this looks like a double bind to me.

What on earth was your counselor doing while all this was going on?

How do you feel today?    And what do you see as your path forward from here?

'ducks

[babyducks]

I sit and can't believe I'm in this.

Have you ever watched an episode of the TV show Hoarders?  And seen where the poor suffering hoarder is earnestly , adamantly and passionately explaining to the therapist how they NEED to have that one extra umbrella, that they really are going to use that umbrella SOME DAY.   That it is very IMPORTANT they keep that umbrella and that NO they don't have too many things.

This is kind of the same thing.   Reality being twisted to assuage fears.

And like the hoarder, they are so freaking persuasive about it, especially when you are in the middle of it, that its very hard to pull apart and determine what is really going on.

Hang in there and be kind to yourself today.

[Butterfly12]

So. After writing an email to my husband that said simply "I'm done," and having a response that was littered with "lets peacefully and lovingly get divorced," I wrote back saying that that wasn't what I was suggesting.

He then got all huffy because he believed he had been "let off the hook."

I emailed him back with the admittance of a panic disorder, which is true, and asked if I could be left completely alone for the next six weeks while I learn to get a handle on the treatment. He hasn't yet responded. In this email I also framed out very carefully why being heard and discounted in my feelings is a major trigger for me, and the interaction with him causes undue stress while trying to get to the roots of my issue. I was completely humble and spoke all "about me," which will obviously either make him say I'm a "selfish brat," or he will be sighing a huge sigh of relief, because it puts no blame on him whatsoever.

I feel like I did the right thing.

But it is unreally frustrating to feel like he truly cannot take responsibility. I spoke to our MC individually and he is appalled by my husband's inability to accept any fault. And he can't quite figure out how to approach it. The counselor strongly believes my working on myself will benefit me, my children and all the relationships in my life... .and I believe this to be true. Getting a handle on a panic disorder is like breathing in fresh air after too long.

(Two years, to be exact... .)

[formflier]

 

Also work on consistent... clear... .communication that follows the rules on bpdfamily.

What did you mean by "I'm done"?  I've had that said to me many times... .it's usually in the context of a divorce threat... .or end of r/s threat.

Working on panic is great!

FF

[babyducks]

I emailed him back with the admittance of a panic disorder, which is true, and asked if I could be left completely alone for the next six weeks while I learn to get a handle on the treatment. He hasn't yet responded. In this email I also framed out very carefully why being heard and discounted in my feelings is a major trigger for me, and the interaction with him causes undue stress while trying to get to the roots of my issue.

I hope you get the response you are looking for.

I suspect that this exchange might look like push/pull to him.   Or be slightly beyond his ability to accept at this point and he might react angrily.   doesn't mean you shouldn't have said it.   

let us know how you make out.

[Daniell85]

The panic attacks can be so hard. I know exactly what you mean when they turn into getting angry. It can get really demoralizing. Like your husband, my boyfriend latches right onto those panic attacks and will systematically attack me during them until I become angry.

I used to feel that if I didn't stay right in the conversation or room with him, I was being a huge failure. A co dependent course of action, I think. I began to get over that last year, and started to develop strategies for at least stepping away from him to go calm myself.

It has only been partly successful. He will give some pretty nasty parting shots, which can easily send me right over the edge from a panic attack to #@#$% I am having a panic attack that he CAN SEE and KNOWS is happening, I am trying to PRESERVE US by stepping away and he decides to HELP by ramping up being a jerk?

BOOM.

Not always, but to him, the point is proven, it's all my fault, and he just refuses to be with someone like me until I stop abusing him.

Bleh.

As time has gone on, I am learning to pick up on the anxiety earlier. I am better at stepping away. I have a long way to go. And to my boyfriend, even one mistake ruins everything. I am not sure how to deal with THAT long term. It's possible I can't.

You are right to focus on your panic attacks. 6 weeks may sound like a long time, but they will fly by quickly. I will be thinking of you and following your posts, hopefully I can add some support!  

[Butterfly12]

So predictably he responded in the vein of, "well, finally, you admit it all is your fault. Good. But I still don't know if I want to be married to you."

This wasn't EXACTLY what was said, an oversimplification, but essentially the jist.

I expected he would be relieved I accepted my issues, but the one thing I didn't count on is that he would completely disregard his own piece in the entire thing and own exactly nothing, while heaping all blame onto my shoulders. Like I was the one who physically assaulted HIM. He basically said that I destroyed him with my own hands, ruining him socially. The ego piece is one I am afraid he won't ever get beyond. In his mind I humiliated him socially, took his kids from him and made false accusations of physical and emotional abuse.

I just don't understand how he can be so... ."great, finally you owned it. You ARE crazy." When it's me being humble.

I responded to the latest email, saying that it felt to me that he was just ready to divorce, but I was open to being wrong and having misinterpted what he is saying. I said it was my greatest hope that with my work on self, and with his, we could turn a new page and begin a new chapter of more peace and better compassion and better understanding for each other.

We'll see what happens. I told him that was my final communication for the next weeks, unless, of course, he chooses to end our marriage NOW. Which I have no idea what he'll do. It's in his court. Again.

[Butterfly12]

So he wrote back, saying I was "pushing" him to go one way or the other, which couldn't be further from the truth. In reality I said: If you want an out, as it seems you might, here you go.

But he said I wasn't making sense and that I needed to stop pushing him. I did say that it was my last correspondence, and so I didn't respond again, as I know he wanted me to. Now to buckle down and work on me... .hm... .

[formflier]

So he wrote back, saying I was "pushing" him to go one way or the other, 

Hey... .if faced with these statements in the future... .consider "STOP" as a response... .a way to deflect.

Sorry you feel that way... .

That's your opinion... .

Ohhh

Perhaps you are correct.

This assumes that the statements coming your way are not abusive and you want to try to continue and calm the conversation.

If you can find a validation target... that is better.

Good plan to work on yourself!

FF

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .