Painted black?

[LostGhost]

Hi there, I've mostly been posting my story on the undecided forums trying to gain advice about my situation but I thought I'd check in here to see as many perspectives as I can.

Basically my ex and I have been separated now for 2 weeks. If you want to read the full story I'm sure you can scan through my posts and get the general idea of it. Where I'm at now is 10 days of no contact. Today I liked a post on her facebook, just to subtly let her know I'm still out there, still alive. I don't know if I've been painted black, or if she's found a replacement, or what's going on in her mind.

Basically, the short of it is I would like to start a new relationship with her, I want to understand her and equip myself with the right kind of tools and knowledge to have the highest chance of having something sustainable with her. I want her to know I love her, my connection with her is profound and not superficial. I want her to know she's not alone, there's someone on her side and that I'm not ready to walk away.

I want her to know all of this without looking like a stalker, or pressuring her in any way. I kind of want her to come to me and for it to be her idea but I don't think that's going to happen. So with all of that in mind, I'm stumbling between worlds trying to find the right way to reconnect. I've been no contact to give time and space apart to reset I guess. But I don't want to be no contact forever.

What are my best chances of being recycled? I do understand what I am getting myself into. I've already been down this path. This last time we broke up was our second go around, after I'd been using SET and validation to some effect throughout the relationship. At some point during the relationship, our intimacy completely stopped and she was no longer sexual with me. I'm not sure what the cause of it was, stress, lack of attraction, or something else. I would like to take a bit of time apart so I can come back for a third time with the best possible chance of having a relationship with her where both people are getting some of the things they want.

Thanks so much for any advice. If you need more info, just let me know.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[babyducks]

Hi LostGhost,

Can you provide the Cliff Notes Version of who left who?  Is she in therapy?   How long were you together? and what was the nature of your r/s, married?  living together? 

'ducks

[LostGhost]

Hi LostGhost,

Can you provide the Cliff Notes Version of who left who?  Is she in therapy?   How long were you together? and what was the nature of your r/s, married?  living together? 

'ducks

Of course, I'll do my best to summarize.

1. Started dating 2013. Lasted 7 months. Mostly amaaaaaaazing times for both of us, textbook fairy tale romance. Had no idea what all the push/pull was about. She left me for her ex.

2. I found this site in the aftermath. Learned as much as I could. We started talking again as "friends" after 2 months of no contact. Then after a month of contact things got hot and heavy again and we questioned why we broke up. She dumped her "ex" and came back to me.

3. Having more knowledge and understanding for her, things were great for about 6 months. Then her ex killed himself. All sex stopped at that point and never resumed. We became like best friends/roommates, still slept in same bed, cuddled etc.

4. She started having all the same push/pull behaviour and the tools seemed ineffective for the next 5 months. She disregulated in my opinion and was devaluing me gradually but surely. We decided to take a break after she blew up at me.

5. During that break, about a week, things were ok. We talked like we always did, she sounded like she missed me and didn't know why we were doing this. We went to a wedding together, she was sad about a lot of things in her life. That night she told me she wanted to die. I comforted her, said I would spend the night and be there for her. Next morning she looked deeply in my eyes, said I was the only person who cares, the only one who understands. Told me maybe I'd she got help, anti depressants, counselling, maybe that would fix many of our problems. She said we share so much.

Then by afternoon/evening, I became like an invisible ghost while she partied it up with friends from the wedding. I was literally turned into a doormat and disrespected to the extreme. That night we got into an argument about this and then it was over. No contact. This is day 10. I don't know what happened. Found a replacement between that morning and evening? Or just decided everything she said in the morning wasn't true? No idea. But I miss her very much, I miss our dynamic. I love this woman, BPD and all. I'm very patient and accepting. I fear I've lost her for good after everything we've shared these two years and all we've been through.

Thanks again for any advice!

[lovers knot]

LostGhost, hello!

When I first read your message, it was almost like I was reading a very, very similar story of my own! I was pretty wow'd by it, in fact. Essentially the same emotions and feelings you are going through is precisely something of the things that I have dealt with, as well--you even acknowledged that, yourself, in your other comment on my thread (which I plan to respond to at some point, as well).

I can tell you right now that I understand your pain, your frustrations, and the seemingly endless thoughts, questions, etc., that come with this. I told someone the other day that I've never thought of questions that begin with "I wonder if... ." more-so than I have since I've been involved with a dear friend that has BPD! As you know, Silent Treatment/Ignored/No Contact/whatever is a juggernaut to be reckoned with, and, to be honest, is pretty mean, although as you've discovered in your studied and educating yourself on their characteristics and whatnot, that this is their primarily M.O. for the most part, and there are a TON of people on this message board, as you know, that have dealt with this in the past, and are still in the process of dealing with it, but have also had success stories come out of using the various techniques.

Anyway, with that said, I know how you want to talk to her again, how you want to be in contact in some way, but don't really know how to go about doing it. One thing you could do is just mirror her silence and let the ball remain in her court, and once she's self-soothed, recycled back to painting you white, then she'll reach out one would hope (since that is what you want)--this is exactly what I'm hopeful for, as well. The last I heard ANYTHING, a peep, from my dearest friend with BPD was on the 11th of August. Since then I've been walking through a snow storm in the summer! Ha!

There's all of the thoughts that come across your mind, like, "Should I try and reach out?" and so on, but like you said before in your other comment on my thread, you don't want to look weak, or that somehow your boundaries aren't "what they should be" (in her mind), in which case could prolong the silence.

Another thing is to perhaps the next time she comes around, perhaps stay a little more centered and not get too high emotionally? I know that pwBPD tend to jump from one extreme to the next, without grey areas, so perhaps remaining centered and using SET and other techniques as you seem to already have a grip on, that this may be your way of keeping the connection going.

I know that in my case, had I known about BPD beforehand, after she told me that she had it, and had I done my research at THAT time, I wouldn't have behaved so foolishly, perhaps, and would have better been able to handle, cope, deal, and communicate in the way that the experts advise, using the various lessons for Nons that one could learn for themselves and so on.

It's tough, my friend, I do know! I'm right there with you, along with so many others! The replacement idea is one that is quite terrible to ponder, as well. One thing that I've done is that, even though I'm still Facebook friends with her, I've totally "unfollowed" her so that I don't see any of her updates. Why? Because it's PAINFUL to even see her lovely face! Yes, very painful, and so I've just stayed away from it, to keep me from having to see it. "Ignorance is bliss" sometimes, right?

I just want another chance, like you. I want to be able to just have a regular mode of talking and having sweet and awesome conversations like before. I do think one of the triggers that caused it was because of some of my words being misconstrued by her, which made her push me away even more-so, but that's a conjecture on my part, although I truly believe is one of the reasons.

Anyway, so you haven't heard from her in 10 days now. I would say to just hang in there, mirror her silence, and better prepare yourself for the next cycle, if that is what you want. Obviously one never knows what to expect with these situations, but I do believe in success stories, and there's always hope.

Keep us updated, though. These discussions definitely keep things easier, when you have people to talk to that you can relate to (as you know). I know that, with me, I have ups and downs; some days I'll be "doing my thing" and involving myself and taking care of myself, etc., and all will be going well, but then I sometimes have those days where the pain returns, and in a big way. I have to often remind myself not to personalize it so much, which is one of my downside traits. I catch myself doing this sometimes, and I need to do better. We can't control their behavior, but we can control our own, right? That often doesn't loosen the binds of the pain that we often deal with in these cases, but thankfully we have supporters, people that truly care and invest themselves in our emotional needs and our pains, and want to see great things happen. That's something to rejoice over!

Be well!

[babyducks]

Oh My LostGhost, that is quite the story.   

I am so sorry you had to go through that.  I thought after coming here and reading I had, well 'seen it all'.   Yours is a very tough story.

Lasted 7 months... .

things were great for about 6 months... .

for the next 5 months... .

for what it's worth 6 months was about the time frame my partner could hold it together between major episodes of dsyregulation.   she frequently told me she never had a relationship that lasted longer than 6 months.   my take on this was because she was mirroring pretty hard for 6 months and around that time the panic set it.   that she was disappearing into the mirror.

3. Having more knowledge and understanding for her, things were great for about 6 months. Then her ex killed himself. All sex stopped at that point and never resumed. We became like best friends/roommates, still slept in same bed, cuddled etc.

for a neuro typical person a suicide would be devastating.   for some one with the rudimentary coping skills normally associated with BPD I am sure the suicide was beyond devastating.   I am going to guess her level of guilt is through the roof and the sex stopped due to a combination of depression and punishment.  I mean punishing herself.   

4. She started having all the same push/pull behaviour and the tools seemed ineffective for the next 5 months. She disregulated in my opinion and was devaluing me gradually but surely. We decided to take a break after she blew up at me.

Yeah the tools would be fairly ineffective right about here.  much of BPD is about fear and shame.   Fear of abandonment, fear of not being good enough,   shame of out of control behaviors, you know all that right?   Her EX is gone, and some fear rises in her about you, and the thought is going to be there, in some shape, what if LostGhost dies?   What if something really bad happens and here comes a push... .

It takes a very long time for pwBPD to return to baseline.   Two years after an argument with my partner she has just gotten to the point of telling me that, maybe, she misunderstood things and maybe, she made a mistake, and maybe she was wrong.   Her fear of appearing wrong is so intense, so incredible as to be unimaginable to me.  If she makes a mistake she is a mistake and not worthy to live.   It's life or death for her.   I am sure your partner has some incredible thinking going in her around the suicide.

5. During that break, about a week, things were ok. We talked like we always did, she sounded like she missed me and didn't know why we were doing this. We went to a wedding together, she was sad about a lot of things in her life. That night she told me she wanted to die. I comforted her, said I would spend the night and be there for her. Next morning she looked deeply in my eyes, said I was the only person who cares, the only one who understands. Told me maybe I'd she got help, anti depressants, counselling, maybe that would fix many of our problems. She said we share so much.

This had to be hard for you to hear.   I am wondering how would you describe the difference between comforting and validating?   I am sure you did a great job comforting her.   Validating is a skill that takes some practice.   Did you try a validation ?     Validation is not intuitive.   

Then by afternoon/evening, I became like an invisible ghost while she partied it up with friends from the wedding. I was literally turned into a doormat and disrespected to the extreme. That night we got into an argument about this and then it was over. No contact. This is day 10. I don't know what happened.

I'm not really surprised.  Let me see if I can explain what I am seeing.   Your gf shared some very deep feelings and literally scared the #$% out of herself.   Given the choice between 1) admitting what she said was true and that she was depressed, she felt a great and vulnerable attachment to you and that some of the problems where of her own making OR 2) pretending the conversation never happened and you don't exist, she went with option 2.

pwBPD are the emotional equivalent of third degree burn victims.   they feel emotionally raw all the time.

does this make sense?

let me know if you think I am on the right page before I go on.

'ducks

[LostGhost]

LostGhost, hello!

When I first read your message, it was almost like I was reading a very, very similar story of my own! I was pretty wow'd by it, in fact. Essentially the same emotions and feelings you are going through is precisely something of the things that I have dealt with, as well--you even acknowledged that, yourself, in your other comment on my thread (which I plan to respond to at some point, as well).

I can tell you right now that I understand your pain, your frustrations, and the seemingly endless thoughts, questions, etc., that come with this. I told someone the other day that I've never thought of questions that begin with "I wonder if... ." more-so than I have since I've been involved with a dear friend that has BPD! As you know, Silent Treatment/Ignored/No Contact/whatever is a juggernaut to be reckoned with, and, to be honest, is pretty mean, although as you've discovered in your studied and educating yourself on their characteristics and whatnot, that this is their primarily M.O. for the most part, and there are a TON of people on this message board, as you know, that have dealt with this in the past, and are still in the process of dealing with it, but have also had success stories come out of using the various techniques.

Anyway, with that said, I know how you want to talk to her again, how you want to be in contact in some way, but don't really know how to go about doing it. One thing you could do is just mirror her silence and let the ball remain in her court, and once she's self-soothed, recycled back to painting you white, then she'll reach out one would hope (since that is what you want)--this is exactly what I'm hopeful for, as well. The last I heard ANYTHING, a peep, from my dearest friend with BPD was on the 11th of August. Since then I've been walking through a snow storm in the summer! Ha!

There's all of the thoughts that come across your mind, like, "Should I try and reach out?" and so on, but like you said before in your other comment on my thread, you don't want to look weak, or that somehow your boundaries aren't "what they should be" (in her mind), in which case could prolong the silence.

Another thing is to perhaps the next time she comes around, perhaps stay a little more centered and not get too high emotionally? I know that pwBPD tend to jump from one extreme to the next, without grey areas, so perhaps remaining centered and using SET and other techniques as you seem to already have a grip on, that this may be your way of keeping the connection going.

I know that in my case, had I known about BPD beforehand, after she told me that she had it, and had I done my research at THAT time, I wouldn't have behaved so foolishly, perhaps, and would have better been able to handle, cope, deal, and communicate in the way that the experts advise, using the various lessons for Nons that one could learn for themselves and so on.

It's tough, my friend, I do know! I'm right there with you, along with so many others! The replacement idea is one that is quite terrible to ponder, as well. One thing that I've done is that, even though I'm still Facebook friends with her, I've totally "unfollowed" her so that I don't see any of her updates. Why? Because it's PAINFUL to even see her lovely face! Yes, very painful, and so I've just stayed away from it, to keep me from having to see it. "Ignorance is bliss" sometimes, right?

I just want another chance, like you. I want to be able to just have a regular mode of talking and having sweet and awesome conversations like before. I do think one of the triggers that caused it was because of some of my words being misconstrued by her, which made her push me away even more-so, but that's a conjecture on my part, although I truly believe is one of the reasons.

Anyway, so you haven't heard from her in 10 days now. I would say to just hang in there, mirror her silence, and better prepare yourself for the next cycle, if that is what you want. Obviously one never knows what to expect with these situations, but I do believe in success stories, and there's always hope.

Keep us updated, though. These discussions definitely keep things easier, when you have people to talk to that you can relate to (as you know). I know that, with me, I have ups and downs; some days I'll be "doing my thing" and involving myself and taking care of myself, etc., and all will be going well, but then I sometimes have those days where the pain returns, and in a big way. I have to often remind myself not to personalize it so much, which is one of my downside traits. I catch myself doing this sometimes, and I need to do better. We can't control their behavior, but we can control our own, right? That often doesn't loosen the binds of the pain that we often deal with in these cases, but thankfully we have supporters, people that truly care and invest themselves in our emotional needs and our pains, and want to see great things happen. That's something to rejoice over!

Be well!

Thank you for taking the time and effort to write this out my friend. I don't know you personally but I can tell you are a deeply intuitive, sensitive and caring person. Your friend is lucky to have you in her life. I have to believe she will realize this and reach out to you sooner or later. I think some fear was triggered in her for any number of reasons. All of her actions seem fear based, like an uncertain child afraid of the unknown.

Thank you for your faith in me and my situation. I will do my best to depersonalize and to move forward no matter the outcome. I will always have a space in my heart for her and hope she will eventually contact me. We went through some incredibly challenging situations together but we helped each other to overcome them. We also celebrated many victories together. I choose to believe I mattered, that our story mattered and that it is not yet over.

Crossing my fingers for you and I both. I have to endure this pain of silence and quiet my heart. I have to remain strong.

[LostGhost]

Oh My LostGhost, that is quite the story.   

I am so sorry you had to go through that.  I thought after coming here and reading I had, well 'seen it all'.   Yours is a very tough story.

Lasted 7 months... .

things were great for about 6 months... .

for the next 5 months... .

for what it's worth 6 months was about the time frame my partner could hold it together between major episodes of dsyregulation.   she frequently told me she never had a relationship that lasted longer than 6 months.   my take on this was because she was mirroring pretty hard for 6 months and around that time the panic set it.   that she was disappearing into the mirror.

3. Having more knowledge and understanding for her, things were great for about 6 months. Then her ex killed himself. All sex stopped at that point and never resumed. We became like best friends/roommates, still slept in same bed, cuddled etc.

for a neuro typical person a suicide would be devastating.   for some one with the rudimentary coping skills normally associated with BPD I am sure the suicide was beyond devastating.   I am going to guess her level of guilt is through the roof and the sex stopped due to a combination of depression and punishment.  I mean punishing herself.   

4. She started having all the same push/pull behaviour and the tools seemed ineffective for the next 5 months. She disregulated in my opinion and was devaluing me gradually but surely. We decided to take a break after she blew up at me.

Yeah the tools would be fairly ineffective right about here.  much of BPD is about fear and shame.   Fear of abandonment, fear of not being good enough,   shame of out of control behaviors, you know all that right?   Her EX is gone, and some fear rises in her about you, and the thought is going to be there, in some shape, what if LostGhost dies?   What if something really bad happens and here comes a push... .

It takes a very long time for pwBPD to return to baseline.   Two years after an argument with my partner she has just gotten to the point of telling me that, maybe, she misunderstood things and maybe, she made a mistake, and maybe she was wrong.   Her fear of appearing wrong is so intense, so incredible as to be unimaginable to me.  If she makes a mistake she is a mistake and not worthy to live.   It's life or death for her.   I am sure your partner has some incredible thinking going in her around the suicide.

5. During that break, about a week, things were ok. We talked like we always did, she sounded like she missed me and didn't know why we were doing this. We went to a wedding together, she was sad about a lot of things in her life. That night she told me she wanted to die. I comforted her, said I would spend the night and be there for her. Next morning she looked deeply in my eyes, said I was the only person who cares, the only one who understands. Told me maybe I'd she got help, anti depressants, counselling, maybe that would fix many of our problems. She said we share so much.

This had to be hard for you to hear.   I am wondering how would you describe the difference between comforting and validating?   I am sure you did a great job comforting her.   Validating is a skill that takes some practice.   :)id you try a validation ?     Validation is not intuitive.   

Then by afternoon/evening, I became like an invisible ghost while she partied it up with friends from the wedding. I was literally turned into a doormat and disrespected to the extreme. That night we got into an argument about this and then it was over. No contact. This is day 10. I don't know what happened.

I'm not really surprised.  Let me see if I can explain what I am seeing.   Your gf shared some very deep feelings and literally scared the #$% out of herself.   Given the choice between 1) admitting what she said was true and that she was depressed, she felt a great and vulnerable attachment to you and that some of the problems where of her own making OR 2) pretending the conversation never happened and you don't exist, she went with option 2.

pwBPD are the emotional equivalent of third degree burn victims.   they feel emotionally raw all the time.

does this make sense?

let me know if you think I am on the right page before I go on.

'ducks

Babyducks, your reply was incredibly helpful to me tonight. It's made sense of this situation where my own logic could not fill in some of the gaps. I know my story is bizarre. Much has happened with her and I in the two years on and off we've been in each other's lives. All we have shared is part of the reason I cannot just walk away and forget.

I'll try to comment on the points you make. 6 months definitely seems to be her breaking point, with me and some of her past relationships as well. Her first relationship was her longest at 7 years, though from what she says the last 3-4 years was them living as roommates. All relationships after would follow a pattern of 3-6 months, break up, new guy, 3-6 months, go back to ex, and so on. She seems to give them all two chances. If I was given a third chance, I'd be the first.

The suicide was devastating in every way. To make things even worse, I work as a 9-1-1 call taker. Guess who got the call? When I heard the name of the deceased, my heart stopped. As if that wasn't some twisted sense of humour or irony from the universe. That morning while I was at work, she had texted me to say something that has stuck with me forever. She said "I was just sitting at home looking out the window at the view and thinking. I was thinking about how happy you make me feel. Everything's being going so great. For the first time in as long as I can remember... .I feel truly happy inside!" Her saying that was profound to say the least. It made me feel overwhelming joy inside. All my efforts were being rewarded, all her suffering was finally being rectified. Hours later I got that call.

I broke down crying at work. I got in my car and yelled, screamed. I was so angry at him, at the universe. I knew it would de estate her and nothing would ever be the same. I knew it would ruin our relationship and undo everything we'd worked towards the last 6 months. I rushed home. When she saw me, I tried to maintain composure and relayed the news. The rest is history. And I was right, nothing was the same after that. It was a long, painful, exhausting struggle just to return to some semblance of normalcy.

And you're right. The guilt overwhelmed her. It still does.she feels responsible, like she's a murderer. There was a large multitude of reasons why he did what he did including terminal cancer. Whether her involvement over the years contributed to his emotions, I have no idea. But she took on 200% responsibility.

That last night her and I spent together in bed and she was talking about wanting to die  I tried my best to validate. I told her I can see she's feeling overwhelmed by pain, grief, stress. I said I understand. I told her I have often felt this same way at periods in my own life and that it's good to talk to other people when we are feeling this way. I told her I would always be there to listen. She crawled into my arms and fell asleep like that. Next morning she told me all those sweet wonderful things I needed/wanted to hear. The rest of the day was just abysmal. She did everything in her power to devalue me.

What you said in your last paragraph is the only thing that's made sense. It really resonates. She chose the lesser of two pains. Better to hurt me by doing everything she could to push me away rather than have to face her own vulnerability.

I would love to hear more of what you think when you have time.

Thank you both for lending me your time and advice. Thank you for this community.

[babyducks]

[What you said in your last paragraph is the only thing that's made sense. It really resonates. She chose the lesser of two pains. Better to hurt me by doing everything she could to push me away rather than have to face her own vulnerability.

I would love to hear more of what you think when you have time.

Thank you both for lending me your time and advice. Thank you for this community.

Hi LostGhost,

Looking back at it, I didn't mean to imply that she made the conscious decision to choose option 2, more a subconscious one of being overwhelmed with difficult emotions and beginning to shutdown.   

If you reach out or not, should be based on what you want to do, based on what you think is best for you.   

When I was first here a member by the name of Winston 72 told me this is reply to something I asked

“twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to shape yourself to match her ability to understand/comprehend ends up with you terribly twisted in your own thinking and overly identified with her thinking.”

if you are absolutely sure of what you want, and where your own limits are, her ability to understand and comprehend becomes a secondary consideration.   

hang in there Lost Ghost.

[LostGhost]

[What you said in your last paragraph is the only thing that's made sense. It really resonates. She chose the lesser of two pains. Better to hurt me by doing everything she could to push me away rather than have to face her own vulnerability.

I would love to hear more of what you think when you have time.

Thank you both for lending me your time and advice. Thank you for this community.

Hi LostGhost,

Looking back at it, I didn't mean to imply that she made the conscious decision to choose option 2, more a subconscious one of being overwhelmed with difficult emotions and beginning to shutdown.   

If you reach out or not, should be based on what you want to do, based on what you think is best for you.   

When I was first here a member by the name of Winston 72 told me this is reply to something I asked

“twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to shape yourself to match her ability to understand/comprehend ends up with you terribly twisted in your own thinking and overly identified with her thinking.”

if you are absolutely sure of what you want, and where your own limits are, her ability to understand and comprehend becomes a secondary consideration.   

hang in there Lost Ghost.

Thank you babyducks for this insight. It's definitely a useful perspective.

I think I am confident and adamant what I want and that is to reconnect and hopefully another relationship naturally occurs out of that. I can't force her to do anything or to see me as useful in her life.

Many people have said my best option is more time. Give her time and space that she and I need to recuperate, match her silence pound for pound. Hopefully by doing so, she will randomly text me on some afternoon looking to talk to me. I don't want to hurt her, punish her or trigger her. But silence seems the best route to not pushing her away further.

I am not ready to walk away from her forever unless I have no other choice. I want to be a permanent member on the staying boards, even if she's raging, abusing, acting out. I should have been asking questions throughout the relationship here... .such as, dear community, this truly horrific event just happened, how do I respond? But I was arrogant to believe I could handle it and that arrogance left me somewhat blindsided yet again.

I've accepted the possibility she's with someone else. I don't like the idea one bit, it turns my stomach and causes me pain. But I've accepted it. Knowing her pattern it wouldn't surprise me. I just wish I knew if it was over between us for good. If it is, I need to move on. I can't wait around forever for her. And I don't want to be involved with someone else just when she decides to reach out to me.

I kind of know what no contact looks like for me as I've done it once before. Intense  ruminating, confusion, what ifs, hopelessness and sleepless nights for about 30 days. That's the first phase. Day 11 now starting.

[babyducks]

Hi LostGhost,

Be kind to yourself,   you have approached this a with a positive attitude trying to make the best decisions you could with the information you had at the time.   No one could have done any better.    All of us have said of if I only knew more about BPD then... .   there is nothing for you down that road, don't go there.

Just as an exercise in considering different perspectives, I am going to ask you to think about an alternative viewpoint.

Many people have said my best option is more time. Give her time and space that she and I need to recuperate, match her silence pound for pound.

If you match her, like we were talking about in the previous post, that does gain you both the time to recuperate but it does so at the cost you mentioned, the ruminations, the worry.   You could work on letting the silent treatment play out and increasing your boundaries so you are not as impacted by her silent treatment.

Or you could try testing the waters.  If you reach out you risk triggering her and being rebuffed.   So the question becomes, which is most true to you, which speaks stronger to your core values, which action or non action can you live with easier.   

This is what I came to find out was true for me.   When my partner had an emotional reaction, I reacted to her reaction, then she reacted to my reaction, and you guessed it.  I reacted again.  She reacted to me reacting to her and pretty soon we were ping ponging off each other like berserk super balls.  It was truly ugly.   Trying to make decisions about my actions based on her emotions had me tied up like a pretzel.

So serious question for you to turn over, is there a way to send to a messages that says Hey LostGhost's Girlfriend, no strings, no pressure, I was thinking about you today and wanted to say Hi.

Just that.   No more.   How would you feel about that?   What do you think the possible responses might be?   and how would feel about the possible responses, the whole gamut from A to Z?

Next serious question,  while this silent treatment plays out is it possible to look what are the best actions for LostGhost other than ruminations, confusion, sleepless and worry?   How can we build you up to the best possible LostGhost you can be?

What do you think?   What looks good to you in there?  Anything?


'ducks

[LostGhost]

Hi LostGhost,

Be kind to yourself,   you have approached this a with a positive attitude trying to make the best decisions you could with the information you had at the time.   No one could have done any better.    All of us have said of if I only knew more about BPD then... .   there is nothing for you down that road, don't go there.

Just as an exercise in considering different perspectives, I am going to ask you to think about an alternative viewpoint.

Many people have said my best option is more time. Give her time and space that she and I need to recuperate, match her silence pound for pound.

If you match her, like we were talking about in the previous post, that does gain you both the time to recuperate but it does so at the cost you mentioned, the ruminations, the worry.   You could work on letting the silent treatment play out and increasing your boundaries so you are not as impacted by her silent treatment.

Or you could try testing the waters.  If you reach out you risk triggering her and being rebuffed.   So the question becomes, which is most true to you, which speaks stronger to your core values, which action or non action can you live with easier.   

This is what I came to find out was true for me.   When my partner had an emotional reaction, I reacted to her reaction, then she reacted to my reaction, and you guessed it.  I reacted again.  She reacted to me reacting to her and pretty soon we were ping ponging off each other like berserk super balls.  It was truly ugly.   Trying to make decisions about my actions based on her emotions had me tied up like a pretzel.

So serious question for you to turn over, is there a way to send to a messages that says Hey LostGhost's Girlfriend, no strings, no pressure, I was thinking about you today and wanted to say Hi.

Just that.   No more.   How would you feel about that?   What do you think the possible responses might be?   and how would feel about the possible responses, the whole gamut from A to Z?

Next serious question,  while this silent treatment plays out is it possible to look what are the best actions for LostGhost other than ruminations, confusion, sleepless and worry?   How can we build you up to the best possible LostGhost you can be?

What do you think?   What looks good to you in there?  Anything?


'ducks

Thanks again Babyducks for your valuable insights. I went to the gym today to begin my journey of restoring my body and gaining back some self confidence and self respect. I think that's a first step for the future. I plant to be consistent and serious about it. I'm also launching my business as a fine art painter which is something that had stalled out while I was with her due to financial setbacks and other factors. So that's two important things for me to focus on.

I think maybe establishing a very light contact in a few weeks might be a good option. I wanted to bounce an idea off of you. Before we split I was talking about painting a portrait of her and she was excited about that. I was thinking maybe I could paint that portrait and put a small short note with it like you say, "Thinking about you, hope you're doing ok." And drop it off on her doorstep while she's at work and she could come home to it. She loves art and that creative side of me. I don't know if this is too much or how she'd react but what do you think about this gesture?

It's hard not to react to them when we are in the heat of the moment. It was one of my worst setbacks. I had a tendency to take what she said very personally. Sometimes she could say very hurtful things and I would react. If there is a next time around, I'm going to promise myself to depersonalize and not react emotionally.

Feeling more optimistic after the gym today. I look forward to my next workout! Hope everything is going ok for you. I truly appreciate your help with my relationship/former relationship. Thanks Babyducks!

[babyducks]

Hi LostGhost,

It's great you are focusing your own health.  Nice step     When my partner and I went through a difficult time, I hiked.   Long hikes in different spots.   Taking care of yourself is very important

I will toss another idea your way.    Are you much of a reader?   There is a great book out there,  called

Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=282011.0

I recommend the book so much people must think I am getting kick backs.      The reason I like it is because it filled in lots of the blanks for me,  I think I ended up highlight about 90% of the book.  It certainly helped me understand why I took the things my partner said so very personally.   

a member here, waverider  once said in another thread

pwBPD have trouble self soothing and we as non's often have trouble with self validation, both can be unhealthy forms of neediness

when my partner said something critical or hurting I found  I didn't know how to self validate, and it was a skill I needed to develop for me.   now anything critical that comes my way tends to bounce off.


you're a painter?   wow I am impressed.   I can't draw a straight line.  I can do math but art is a mystery to me.  here is my experience when I have been in tense situations with my partner.   Less is more.   That was the profound insight from my P.       Less is more.     I have never regretted delaying doing something, holding back a little bit,  checking out the lay of the land before I jumped all in.   I have regretted blazing in before I felt 100% comfortable.   If I am feeling uncertain or unsure, there is likely a reason for that, and probably I should pay attention to why I am feeling unsure.   Trust your instinct.     

'ducks

[lovers knot]

LostGhost, hello!

When I first read your message, it was almost like I was reading a very, very similar story of my own! I was pretty wow'd by it, in fact. Essentially the same emotions and feelings you are going through is precisely something of the things that I have dealt with, as well--you even acknowledged that, yourself, in your other comment on my thread (which I plan to respond to at some point, as well).

I can tell you right now that I understand your pain, your frustrations, and the seemingly endless thoughts, questions, etc., that come with this. I told someone the other day that I've never thought of questions that begin with "I wonder if... ." more-so than I have since I've been involved with a dear friend that has BPD! As you know, Silent Treatment/Ignored/No Contact/whatever is a juggernaut to be reckoned with, and, to be honest, is pretty mean, although as you've discovered in your studied and educating yourself on their characteristics and whatnot, that this is their primarily M.O. for the most part, and there are a TON of people on this message board, as you know, that have dealt with this in the past, and are still in the process of dealing with it, but have also had success stories come out of using the various techniques.

Anyway, with that said, I know how you want to talk to her again, how you want to be in contact in some way, but don't really know how to go about doing it. One thing you could do is just mirror her silence and let the ball remain in her court, and once she's self-soothed, recycled back to painting you white, then she'll reach out one would hope (since that is what you want)--this is exactly what I'm hopeful for, as well. The last I heard ANYTHING, a peep, from my dearest friend with BPD was on the 11th of August. Since then I've been walking through a snow storm in the summer! Ha!

There's all of the thoughts that come across your mind, like, "Should I try and reach out?" and so on, but like you said before in your other comment on my thread, you don't want to look weak, or that somehow your boundaries aren't "what they should be" (in her mind), in which case could prolong the silence.

Another thing is to perhaps the next time she comes around, perhaps stay a little more centered and not get too high emotionally? I know that pwBPD tend to jump from one extreme to the next, without grey areas, so perhaps remaining centered and using SET and other techniques as you seem to already have a grip on, that this may be your way of keeping the connection going.

I know that in my case, had I known about BPD beforehand, after she told me that she had it, and had I done my research at THAT time, I wouldn't have behaved so foolishly, perhaps, and would have better been able to handle, cope, deal, and communicate in the way that the experts advise, using the various lessons for Nons that one could learn for themselves and so on.

It's tough, my friend, I do know! I'm right there with you, along with so many others! The replacement idea is one that is quite terrible to ponder, as well. One thing that I've done is that, even though I'm still Facebook friends with her, I've totally "unfollowed" her so that I don't see any of her updates. Why? Because it's PAINFUL to even see her lovely face! Yes, very painful, and so I've just stayed away from it, to keep me from having to see it. "Ignorance is bliss" sometimes, right?

I just want another chance, like you. I want to be able to just have a regular mode of talking and having sweet and awesome conversations like before. I do think one of the triggers that caused it was because of some of my words being misconstrued by her, which made her push me away even more-so, but that's a conjecture on my part, although I truly believe is one of the reasons.

Anyway, so you haven't heard from her in 10 days now. I would say to just hang in there, mirror her silence, and better prepare yourself for the next cycle, if that is what you want. Obviously one never knows what to expect with these situations, but I do believe in success stories, and there's always hope.

Keep us updated, though. These discussions definitely keep things easier, when you have people to talk to that you can relate to (as you know). I know that, with me, I have ups and downs; some days I'll be "doing my thing" and involving myself and taking care of myself, etc., and all will be going well, but then I sometimes have those days where the pain returns, and in a big way. I have to often remind myself not to personalize it so much, which is one of my downside traits. I catch myself doing this sometimes, and I need to do better. We can't control their behavior, but we can control our own, right? That often doesn't loosen the binds of the pain that we often deal with in these cases, but thankfully we have supporters, people that truly care and invest themselves in our emotional needs and our pains, and want to see great things happen. That's something to rejoice over!

Be well!

Thank you for taking the time and effort to write this out my friend. I don't know you personally but I can tell you are a deeply intuitive, sensitive and caring person. Your friend is lucky to have you in her life. I have to believe she will realize this and reach out to you sooner or later. I think some fear was triggered in her for any number of reasons. All of her actions seem fear based, like an uncertain child afraid of the unknown.

Thank you for your faith in me and my situation. I will do my best to depersonalize and to move forward no matter the outcome. I will always have a space in my heart for her and hope she will eventually contact me. We went through some incredibly challenging situations together but we helped each other to overcome them. We also celebrated many victories together. I choose to believe I mattered, that our story mattered and that it is not yet over.

Crossing my fingers for you and I both. I have to endure this pain of silence and quiet my heart. I have to remain strong.

LG, you're more than welcome, my friend, for we're all "in this" together! I appreciate and take greatly your kind words, truly; I mirror those same sentiments! I should've known that you were an artist, though, because I can sense that you're a very sensitive soul, and as an exhibited/published artist, myself, we tend to be hyper-sensitive, as it is, and wear our emotions on our sleeves, and have a divine sense of discernment at times (if one wants to call it that; I do feel that way, often).

I've read through this particular thread where 'ducks has been guiding you along and really helping you to picture a clearer reasoning and understanding and trying to sort out this complex weave that we all know so well, and I must say that it has actually helped ME in many ways, as well, because the advice that you were receiving fits in with a lot of my own emotions and scenarios and continuously feeling the snow storm and Ice Age of the dreaded Silent Treatment, so I often find myself feeling more and more compassionate.

Thank you for the kind words, too; You know, as time goes by without hearing one peep, one starts to wonder all sorts of crazy thoughts, right? I've been out having a great time today, with friends and new friends, and enjoying the beautiful weather, and so on, and sometimes, amidst it all, I think of my dear soul with BPD, and I feel that sudden 'wave' that we all feel. I've been using these emotions creatively, or to be more creative, as "fuel," per se, and it really has helped, in many ways. I'm also a published writer, so I use these things to really ignite the wick of my inner-candle, and that is one thing that I won't let this bout of do to me, and that is break me, nor will I ever let it blow out the candle of my mind and soul.

Like you, I often wonder "when" (if ever) the silence will end. Reading more into your "story" that you shared here has really broadened my understanding and given me a new perspective of your own situation, and how it all must make you feel, and wow--I find it STAGGERING to see how so many people have dealt with so many issues like this; only staggering because, well, for one, before knowing anything about BPD, who would've ever guessed anything like this would have happened to us? I say that with a compassionate mindset, because "everything happens for a reason," and I believe that special people, talented people, people with deep-seeded emotions and true feelings of sacrificial love, poetical love, people that have SO much to offer someone in the greatest joys and be there with the ups, downs, the hot spots and cold spots, and just giving one's all--I believe that it is US that can make a difference, and I believe we ARE making a difference, and HAVE made a difference, and will continue to do so.

I know that my fwBPD once told me that I came into her life to save it; that I am the sweetest person in her life; that she loves me, she misses me, told her family all about me, and so on, and now, even though I'm stranded on Gilligan's Island (ha--without the crew!), I can look out across the oceans and know that there's still hope; that I want hope; and truth be told, I find myself wanting to reach out to her. It has been 3-1/2 weeks since she said anything to me (August 11th the last time), and over a month since we actually have a vocal conversation on the phone (July 29th the last time), and as much as I miss her (and I do!), it's like, "How long is too long before I rise out of the flames and speak?"

Anyway, forgive my long response! I don't know if you saw my other post in response to your comment on the thread that you commented on the other day, but I just wanted to share it with you here, if you didn't. I'll paste it in my next comment below, so you can check it out.

I hope that you are well, and give us ANY updates that come your way! My fingers (AND TOES!) are crossed for you and your situation, as well, and please know that I'm very grateful for your kindness, friend, truly. This message board is full of very loving, sweet, compassionate and caring people, and it's truly like a light in a dark, ominous sky at times.

Keep shining, regardless!

[lovers knot]

Okay! So, here's the comment that I made the other day to you in response to your last comment that you made on that thread of mine. I find it incredible how your situation and mine are very similar, albeit in my situation, she and I never got romantically involved, although there were hints there that it could be. Anyway, here's what I said the other day! (I'll put it in italics):

LostGhost, yes! I just responded to your thread, and in there, I make some comments about how similar our situations are and how I was wow'd by what you shared, because it mirrored a lot of my own woes.

"They change facts to match their feelings sometimes." Oh, absolutely! It's incredible, and I sound like a broken record, but I can relate to everything you're going through, with the pain of questioning, pondering if it's a good idea to say something in reaching out, the whole nine yards. It's interesting, because MOST pwBPD are really passionate, loving, extremely caring and are capable of immense bouts of love, but then there's the other side of the token, as well, that one just has to deal with. You sound like a very compassionate person, full of love and true care for her, and I can mirror these traits, as well, because like you said, there's sacrificial benefits to what we have to offer, which is unconditional love, etc., but when we've been given the ST, or ignored, or even split black, it's like a knife that is slowly turning in one's chest, and you're left with so many questions.

Interesting that your ex has said similar things that my dear friend has said; doesn't need men, is independent, hates when she is looked upon as lackluster, etc. My friend with BPD used to go through bouts of alcohol/cigarrette binges, as well, but then she realized it was wrong after all I had told her, had encouraged her, been validating her, given her positive news, positive words, always, never failing, and she told me that she would just pour it all out and throw out the cig. She once told me that I was the "sweetest person in her life" and that "you came into my life to save it," and so on--all of the beautiful things that make you feel so special. "I miss you very much!" and so on, but then total silence, nothing. "I want to catch up on everything!" ... .but total silence. Very complex, all of this, but like yourself, I'm with her till the end; I feel so compassionate about it all, and the more I learn, the more compassionate I become.

Maybe you're right--there may not be a romantic partner at all with her, but instead, she may be just getting the validation she needs from other people. She recently got a job as a middle school teacher, so I'm sure that her co-workers are filling her needs, and she's also busy, etc. I've always maintained, though, that no matter how "busy" a person is, they aren't THAT busy to merely totally ignore their friends and family. It's just an excuse, in my opinion. I know that I've been busy often, as well, and other people are, but I and others MAKE TIME for their friends; it's just the normal thing to do, but you and I both know that we're not dealing with "normal minds" here; this fear of being abandoned, the fear of intimacy, core shame issues, and so on, are at the root of all of this.

The great news is that my dear friend acknowledges that she has a problem, and once told me that she needs to get help, and sought out help and the last I heard, she had therapy sessions lined up, which made me so happy for her! This is always a great step. She told me that she knows that her friendships are often stormy, and that she's a "terrible friend" at times (she admitted it, and that's good!), but said that she wants to get help so that she can give the care and love and attention that her dear sweet friends and family deserves from her, and how could one not applaud THAT? I'm just trying my best to remain positive, but the pain does return sometimes, and that's only normal.

So, it sounds like you've been thinking about the letter, as well, and have also been warned that it may make you appear weak, may re-start her ST Clock all over again, and may make you look needy, etc., and this is precisely where I've been, as well. It is a really, really difficult decision to make! On the one hand, you want to reach out and show them that you care, but I've always heard/read and have been told that when they're in this cycle, that when we've painted black, or are just being given the ST, that they don't emotional satellite-in on the common emotional connections that we may tell them--it's almost a kind of no-win situation in some respects, because it's up to their own feelings and ways of thinking about it all that will impact and determine their actions and if their Non is painted white again, or if there's a re-connect at all. In my case, and I feel like in your case, we both just want to be reconnected in a communicative way, because really, it's difficult not to feel that way when you care so deeply about someone, right? Even with all that we know, all that we've learned, we still hold on to that hope.

What I plan to do, as of right now, is to remain silent. I find myself not wanting to remain silent, to mirror her silence, but I've been advised that that is the best option. If a month goes by and I haven't heard anything out of her, then I may try and reach out, although I'm still ambivalent about that. I think that since it has only been 10 days of NC from her end, perhaps you should merely give it a little more time. I know that two or three weeks seems to be what a lot of people have experienced until they break out of it, and that is what happened with me via my first ST--it was two weeks, and as I wrote and shared her texts in my original post in this thread--the 11th of August being the final time I've heard from her. It's been over 3 weeks now in this new cycle. I didn't stay centered and didn't know about the techniques in communicating with her in the way that I do now, so as I've said, I come prepared the next time (IF there's a next time--sigh!).

"But what if she doesn't? Ever? Am I prepared for that outcome. Right now I don't like to imagine that outcome."

Believe you me, friend, these are the IDENTICAL questions I've asked, myself, often. The big "what if she never responds?" or, "What if this is the end?" Honestly, I'd rather her punch me in the face, then spit on me and kick me on the ground versus going this route. Ostracism. You start thinking, "I'd rather be told that it's over than to say that it's over with pure silence." At least if one is told that they never want to talk to you, they are acknowledging your existence, rather than devaluing you as if you're a piece of nothingness, a rat in an alleyway, or garbage in a landfield. It's a complex web, that's for sure, and I thank you for your kind response and for taking the time to comment; we have a lot in common with this, and so do other folks here! I saw someone write on her the other day: "If it wasn't for this message board, I think I'd be completely insane by now." Ha

I think the thought of them never reaching out again is one area that drives us to want to peek our heads in the door and say, "Hello! I'm still around!" or, "Hello, I still care about you!" but I know that their emotions at these times are so disregulated and critical that it's one of those things where perhaps hearing from us, seeing us, whatever, is actually more damaging than anything else. Not always, of course, for each pwBPD is different, but it's just a thought, and something I've come to discover.

Take care of yourself! Give it some time, and don't say anything for a while. That's what I'd recommend right now... .

[kelligirl]

 

I totally feel your pain as everyone else agrees... .I had a downer of a day today... .Just like the previous comment, some days I am good to go... .just doing me... .and today, was not my day... .I cried, I missed him and I sent a few long texts... .no reply of course, because I am being devalued/ignored.  I tried to reconnect a bit on the spiritual side, you know he claims to have a Christ like life... .Hummm ? Anyway, he must have switched religions, because he doesn't forgive quickly. I have never addressed his disorder... .but I need to get over myself... .I mean... .I truly cannot keep cycling like this... .on one month, off the next... .etc... .It causes me too many highs and lows, and I am eating too much, gaining weight, which makes me feel bad about myself... .I gotta work on building back my self esteem first... .his ignoring me, takes my confidence away, and I feel so lonely. The void he left has been hard to replace. I truly am not going to try and reconcile because he is toxic to my soul. In his silence, he knew I had a death in my family and still did not reach out to me. I am tired guys  of being mistreated and feeling a condemned life of what did I do now ? I have reached out to several guy friends who know what is going n with me, and it does truly help... .I think it is okay sometimes to let people, even with BPD know you are hurting... .I am going to move forward... .and I am going to be stronger... .Be well everyone and stay encouraged.

[LostGhost]

Loversknot: Thank you again for your kind sentiments. I'm glad to hear you're using this situation as a catalyst for creativity. I find myself trying to do the same but I think it's all still too raw for me. I found myself in long bouts of getting lost in my mind. I've been working out quite a bit to stay distracted, as well as working on my art. It's definitely helping - it's a start. One foot in front of the other.

I try to read and reread every story on these boards that I can, to broaden my understanding. It's hard to believe it's almost been a month since you last spoke with her. You just have to keep doing what you are doing and you will find yourself in a better place mentally and emotionally.

I made a fool of myself today by breaking no contact. It was a mistake and I don't recommend anyone does that. I really think if you want to reconnect with them it's better to just wait it out and let them come to you. I thought I was seeing signs that maybe she wanted to reconnect but I may have placed too much credence in those signals. Small things such as liking a post on Facebook or Twitter. I decided I would send a small gift card to her email and a little one paragraph note basically saying I hope you're doing well, have a coffee on me. No reply, no thank you, nothing.

13 days no contact and now I must reset the timer back to 0. I was arrogant and foolish to expect anything. Don't do what I did. The silence becomes even more deafening. It reopens the fresh wounds and doesn't allow you to heal or move on. Sometimes you have to learn through trial by fire.

Your words are refreshing on this day. I find that you have more faith in my situation than I do myself currently. I think I am starting to convince myself that it's time to give up on her - permanently. No matter what path I take, there is pain.

I'm not sure I have any words of wisdom for your plight my friend. I thought it best for you to write her a handwritten letter, as I was feeling optimistic for both of us. After my failed attempt today, I'm not sure trying to contact them is wise. It was like buying a lottery ticket where you go home and sit there daydreaming of all the things you're going to do with the money. It gives you rush of excitement and anticipation but when you realize you didn't actually win, it leaves you with nothing but a sobering disappointment. That's what today felt like. Sent her that gift card and email in the morning and went to the gym to work out, feeling optimistic and hopeful. I didn't check my email just to keep the rush going. By nightfall, I realized the error of my choice. I've probably pushed her even further away. Liking my post on Facebook, Twitter... .it was nothing, no signs to be gleaned, no mystical voodoo psychology going on. It was just a like on Facebook, no different than the millions of other likes that go out in a day.

13 days of no contact simply isn't enough time. To be honest though, I'm just not sure my heart is in this any more. The only reason I can think of she wouldn't reply to me is because she has a replacement. In which case, I think it's time for me to replace her as well. It feels like I wasted two years of my life on her. I can't even look back at the memories I have and find them useful to me. All I see is a giant span of time that was just a lie, an illusion. It uselessly occupies space in my brain and I would rather be rid of the entire experience. I can look back at the 13 years I spent with my ex-wife and despite her ending that relationship in a brutal affair that left me broken, I can still find reasons to smile and say "Those are real memories, there was genuine happiness there". When I think of my ex-girlfriend and the times we shared, the expression on my face is becoming one of distrust. I don't trust that any of those moments were authentic any more. When I look at photographs of her and us together, I see gears spinning behind her eyes. Every action/word seems rehearsed or scripted and the relationship feels like a fabricated construct, a relationship built on quicksand. I may as well have been in love with a parrot or the reflection in a mirror.

I apologize, my thoughts have gone somewhere dark tonight only because of my earlier experience in the day. I am disappointed in myself for breaking no contact and finding nothing but emptiness for my efforts.

Keep me updated on your story, I hope it progresses in a positive manner my friend.

[LostGhost]

I totally feel your pain as everyone else agrees... .I had a downer of a day today... .Just like the previous comment, some days I am good to go... .just doing me... .and today, was not my day... .I cried, I missed him and I sent a few long texts... .no reply of course, because I am being devalued/ignored.  I tried to reconnect a bit on the spiritual side, you know he claims to have a Christ like life... .Hummm ? Anyway, he must have switched religions, because he doesn't forgive quickly. I have never addressed his disorder... .but I need to get over myself... .I mean... .I truly cannot keep cycling like this... .on one month, off the next... .etc... .It causes me too many highs and lows, and I am eating too much, gaining weight, which makes me feel bad about myself... .I gotta work on building back my self esteem first... .his ignoring me, takes my confidence away, and I feel so lonely. The void he left has been hard to replace. I truly am not going to try and reconcile because he is toxic to my soul. In his silence, he knew I had a death in my family and still did not reach out to me. I am tired guys  of being mistreated and feeling a condemned life of what did I do now ? I have reached out to several guy friends who know what is going n with me, and it does truly help... .I think it is okay sometimes to let people, even with BPD know you are hurting... .I am going to move forward... .and I am going to be stronger... .Be well everyone and stay encouraged.

Hi kelligirl,

From reading the boards, it seems like quite a few of us had an off day today. Sounds like you reached out to your ex like I did today and you were left with the same kind of stinging pain and disappointment inside of you. It's a hard battle. We are in the depths of a thick forest and we have no map or compass to find our way. We have to stumble over roots and find ourselves tangled in branches at times. Eventually we find our way out because there's always a way. I am proud of your resolve to move forward. I think it is absolutely the best course of action in these situations. There's a strong possibility they will come back into your life right when things are starting to look up for you. The desire to reconnect with them will be overwhelming and the idea is intoxicating. If I could go back... .and this is hard to say because there were so many wonderful moments the second go around... .but if I could go back, I wouldn't have resumed the relationship with her. Wow... .it brings tears to even say that. I have a hard time discerning what was "authentic" from what was not but the more time I spend thinking about it, I'm not sure any of it was authentic. I always hear that they meant what they said "at the time". Their feelings were real "at the time" they were feeling them. Well what's the point in a relationship like that where somebody can just suddenly not mean what they said any more, or not feel what they were feeling before in an instant? Black/white, on/off, hot/cold. It's absurd. It's not worth it in the end. Nothing is worth this kind of painful emptiness. There are moments in life that have brought me to my knees and rocked the very foundations of who I am as a person. But nothing makes me feel as lost and bewildered as loving her.

I always thought the staying boards were inspiring. I envisioned myself having a permanent place on these boards because of my patient/loving nature. I believed I would persevere, that our relationship would be strong enough to withstand the obstacles. But you essentially have to give up your humanity. If you want to love them till the end of time, till death do you part, you have to be prepared to accept everything, abuse, violence, infidelity, neglect, silent treatment, withdrawal of sex/intimacy, that they likely won't be good parental figures to your children, they'll disapprove of almost everything you do, they won't get along with most of your friends/family. And even if you accept all of that? They could just up and leave just because they feel like it. In return, do we receive genuine love and respect? Do we receive what we deserve as human beings?



Be well everyone. I'll use what energy I have left for today to send your way. It did me no good today. Maybe it will be of some use to some of you, your partners or your relationships.

[babyducks]

Hi LostGhost,

I'm sorry to hear you had such a bad day.   I know that you are hurting right now.   And that things look bleak and discouraging.

I wanted to give you a shout out and maybe a drop of encouragement.

Here is what I found to be true for me.

When I first met my partner, we experienced that euphoric idealization phase so common in BPD r/s.   Things were wonderful and I was walking on clouds.   I can't describe to you how happy I was.   To have someone look at me, at ME, with rapt adoration was beyond intoxicating.  It was eerie how much we had in common.  (of course this before I knew about BPD and mirroring.)   and we started to meld together.  to become enmeshed.  I'll be honest, we enmeshed into an amoeba like oneness.   and it was wonderful.   for about two months.

and then it was horrible.  really horrible.    bad things happened.   I understood why she would want to become enmeshed,  I studied about BPD, read on these boards, yeah I got it.   But it still wasn't enough.  It didn't fix things.  Understanding her behavior didn't make me feel better.   I had to understand my behavior.   What drove me into this r/s and what kept me in it.   Why I was willing to be enmeshed into an amoeba like oneness.   Once I understood my side of the street I started to feel better.

and that's why I can say, what I got from my relationship is the great gift of being more fully human, more fully me.


Regardless of whether we stay together or not, this is what I get out of my relationship with my partner.

I get to be more fully human.   More in touch with my own emotions.

I get to appreciate small things which I would normally walk by.

Knowing her has made me a better human being, and that's rare.

the bond we form in these relationships is not like other relationships.  being stuck in ruminations is exquisitely painful.  I know, I was there.   

   Nothing is worth this kind of painful emptiness.

Filling that emptiness that we once filled with another person is beyond brutal.   For me, I had to ask myself why I was so willing to fill up myself with another person.   Some of the reasons were simple.  some not.   And the answer was, it's an inside job.   

I hope you know LostGhost, that I'm trying to share my experience in hopes it lights a way forward for you.  I wish you well.

'ducks

[LostGhost]

Hi LostGhost,

I'm sorry to hear you had such a bad day.   I know that you are hurting right now.   And that things look bleak and discouraging.

I wanted to give you a shout out and maybe a drop of encouragement.

Here is what I found to be true for me.

When I first met my partner, we experienced that euphoric idealization phase so common in BPD r/s.   Things were wonderful and I was walking on clouds.   I can't describe to you how happy I was.   To have someone look at me, at ME, with rapt adoration was beyond intoxicating.  It was eerie how much we had in common.  (of course this before I knew about BPD and mirroring.)   and we started to meld together.  to become enmeshed.  I'll be honest, we enmeshed into an amoeba like oneness.   and it was wonderful.   for about two months.

and then it was horrible.  really horrible.    bad things happened.   I understood why she would want to become enmeshed,  I studied about BPD, read on these boards, yeah I got it.   But it still wasn't enough.  It didn't fix things.  Understanding her behavior didn't make me feel better.   I had to understand my behavior.   What drove me into this r/s and what kept me in it.   Why I was willing to be enmeshed into an amoeba like oneness.   Once I understood my side of the street I started to feel better.

and that's why I can say, what I got from my relationship is the great gift of being more fully human, more fully me.


Regardless of whether we stay together or not, this is what I get out of my relationship with my partner.

I get to be more fully human.   More in touch with my own emotions.

I get to appreciate small things which I would normally walk by.

Knowing her has made me a better human being, and that's rare.

the bond we form in these relationships is not like other relationships.  being stuck in ruminations is exquisitely painful.  I know, I was there.   

   Nothing is worth this kind of painful emptiness.

Filling that emptiness that we once filled with another person is beyond brutal.   For me, I had to ask myself why I was so willing to fill up myself with another person.   Some of the reasons were simple.  some not.   And the answer was, it's an inside job.   

I hope you know LostGhost, that I'm trying to share my experience in hopes it lights a way forward for you.  I wish you well.

'ducks

Thanks babyducks!

Everything you say makes sense to the logical part of my brain. It's the emotional that is falling behind and not catching up. I'm actually ok with who I am as a person, what I offer as a human being both to myself and to others. My life isn't in dire circumstances or anything like that. I know I can make a full recovery for the better. I suppose I'm just disappointed that I couldn't live my life with her as a companion. To my personality type, nothing feels better in this world than having a romantic companion to share all of what life has to offer. I may come across as needy but I don't see it like that. It's simply a very strong desire, an aspiration in life. I thought I finally achieved it but to have it taken from my grasp is very disheartening.

I should give an update to my story... .and also ask further questions to gain more insight and see what you all think... .

She actually did email me back to say thank you for the gift card. Her words were excited, lots of exclamation marks etc. She said it was kind and my words made her laugh out loud. It was short but it was enough just to hear from her. I emailed a humorous response back to keep her laughing. She didn't reply to that. At about 3 AM before bed I went onto my Facebook and saw her on there and decided I might as well message her on there. We chatted back and forth a little bit for maybe an hour. Her messages were shorter and more to the point than mine. She didn't seem bitter, angry or spiteful with me. But she did seem distracted, as in, it appeared she was probably talking to someone else as well (replacement most likely).

All I can say is that by the end of the conversation, although there was no raging or anything like that, I felt worse off than when I was no contact. I could actually feel in her words that the love and admiration she once had in her heart was just gone. I was nothing more than one of those friends on her Facebook that she messages once in a blue moon to say hi to and then doesn't speak to them again for two months. I could just sense it, that the connection between her and I has been severed.

So I suppose my question is... .are they able to paint two people white at the same time?  Can I as her ex-boyfriend be white and can her new replacement also be white simultaneously? I didn't sense that I was painted black last night, otherwise I don't think she'd talk to me at all and probably would have ignored the gift card. She wasn't apologetic for anything that happened in the relationship but she also wasn't blaming either. She took responsibility for a few things, I took responsibility for a few things. It seemed like a normal conversation between two rational people.

I didn't take the conversation anywhere that would suggest I wanted to get back together and neither did she. I honestly don't know what to make of it. I feel like she sees me as either an acquaintance or a friend at most, somebody that she used to know, nothing more. Which is hurtful.

If my interest is to revisit the relationship with her at some point in the future, what is my best course of action going from here?

[lovers knot]

LostGhost, I was terribly saddened by your last comment; I'm so-very sorry that you're going through this hurt! I often have to remind myself that "everything has an expiration date" (well, sometimes!) and just yesterday I was thinking to myself, ":)o I deserve this pain? No. Why do I keep battling it? Because I care and love my dearest friend. Is it mean what she's doing? Yes. Am I personalizing it at times? Yes, but I'm working on it and I know the differences NOW than I did THEN, which helps loosen the chains and release the blinders." Yes, one can work on themselves, use this as fuel for creativity, but it still hurts, and it doesn't matter what anyone else says--the pain is very real, as we ALL know!

After reading your comment, it truly made me feel so sad for you, my friend, for I know how excited you were after you sent to her the gift, and then to receive no response; no thank you, no nothing. This reminds me when, before my friend with BPD found her new job as a middle school teacher, how she was really struggling and battling; she had little money to pay bills, for food, you name it. So, what I did, I decided that I would help her out by sending her money, and I did! A handwritten letter, with tracts of encouragement, positivity, love and joy, along with MONEY, and you know what? She never thanked me for it. Not a word. I wasn't upset that she didn't thank me, because by then her walls had begun to go up around her, and also because I've always been one to give without the expectation of receiving anything in return (and that includes a 'thank you' or whatever it may be!), because as long as I'm doing my duty in this life, being a light to others and helping the poor, or whatever, the peace that comes with doing such things are true treasures to my heart-strings.

Another example:

The last time I saw my fwBPD "in person" was in mid-July; at the time, she was planning a trip to visit her family in another town (her mother, some other family that she'd never met before, etc.) and it was a big deal--her mother had called her while I was there, and was excited for her to come along. Well, one day she and I were going to head the grocery store to pick up some food for us to cook together--it was to be a fun day! One of those items were peanut-butter cookies to be prepared and baked. When we got in her car, we were shocked to discover that it wouldn't start up! I noticed that she became super, super annoyed and frustrated. We used my car to go the grocery store, ultimately, but the reason she was annoyed was because she now couldn't go see her family! She wanted to take this trip quite badly, and I knew that she did. To make a long story short, as she was washing dishes in her kitchen, I came up beside her and I said, "Here's something I was thinking about! Whatever the cost is to get your car fixed, whatever the problem the mechanic finds, I'll pay for it, so that you can go on your trip." She said, "No, no, no, don't do that... ." and I insisted that I'd pay for it, whatever the problem was. I said, "I know how important it is that you take this trip, and I want you to be happy and I want you to go."

I do believe that pwBPD have grateful hearts, and they do appreciate things, but I think that sometimes they have a strange way of showing it. It's kind of like a cat, you know? Such mysteries they are. You think that they are ignoring you at times, but they cherish and adore us, to the point where they are "taking it all in."

One thing that I realized was so true years ago was this. Shakespeare once said: "Expectation is the root of all heartache." How true, so true! That may be a clumsy example to use, considering the fact that, as with anything, it all depends on the situation, but in these instances, it's still difficult and it still doesn't release and soothe the sting that we have all felt.

To get more on the point:

I don't think that you made a fool of yourself by breaking NC. In fact, I've often feel like I've made a fool of myself OFTEN, especially with my fwBPD, but that was mostly because I wasn't aware of BPD, and so I really had no understanding of the entire spectrum. However, in your case, I 'get' why you'd be terribly sad, frustrated, and deeply hurt by you reaching out after noticing that she had came in and 'liked' some of your posts, which may have given you the fuel to break NC and go for the gusto, per se. The thing is: How are we to know if they will ever come back to us? The Future sometimes looks back at US and perhaps mocks us--ha!

Here's what I'm thinking... .

13-14 days now have gone by and she hasn't spoken to you, right? I don't think it's over! I still think that there's a good possibility that she reaches out to you again. I also made the mistake of breaking NC on the 15th of August (4 days after she FIRST broken the silence of 14 days, with all of the "I miss you!" and "I hope to catch up soon!" and these kinds of lovely things; she sent pictures to me of the morning glories that she and I planted together in her garden, too--I thought things were okay; I made the mistake of getting too emotional, not using proper communication, and not staying centered! and the silence returned; haven't heard from her since the 11th, which was the first break of silence, so now I've been in another bout of silence because of my not staying centered, but I'm VERY prepared the next go-around, and I hope that I get another opportunity), and in those texts I told her that I missed her and our conversations. I should have remained less emotional--since they tend to go from one extreme to the next--but, again, I'm ready for the next time.

I still think that, after you've experienced 2 weeks of NC, that it's not all said and done. On one hand, you want things to work out, you want to hang in there and hope that things change, but in recent days I've also been thinking about totally trying to move away from all of this, as painful as it may be, because as you said, you're not sure if your heart is in it anymore. I can relate to that! If you suspect that she has a replacement, do you plan to follow through and truly replace her, as well? I've read many times where the "replacement" tends to be a mere 'fill-in' that will often be a quick-fix for validating, newness, etc., but with someone that they truly care about or love or whatever (like perhaps you and I, and many others), they tend to not emotionally feel the same with their replacement and they'll eventually come back to us. I know that they tend to push away those that they love and care for the most, and push away those that they know is good for them, etc. Replacements are often short-lived.  

Don't ever apologize for your feelings and thoughts, friend; this is what we're all here for. Express EVERYTHING and release it all here to those that truly care and can empathize. Most of us know EXACTLY how you're feeling. I, for one, am in that camp!

I've come really close to just saying to her, ":)ear friend, if you plan to ignore me for the rest of your life, why not just delete me on Facebook and remove me from your contacts on your phone?" I've pondered many things to say. Who appreciates being ignored and treated like this? NO ONE! Obviously it is their disorder, and I have learned not to personalize it, but the "Truth" part of 'SET' is vital. I've read where there are times when the BPD should be held accountable for their actions towards their Non; there are particular and unique ways of going about doing this, and I've pondered different ways of reaching out, and perhaps softly letting her know that I do not appreciate being ignored and treated like this, and that if she plans to continue to ignore me, to continue to entirely think of me as non-existent, then just say so, delete me, and remove me from your life "for good." Like I said, most people would rather be TOLD these things, rather than given the ST, which of course is the cruelest form of abuse, I think. "It's a part of their disorder," yes, but there are ways of informing them that you do not appreciate it, and of course that is risking the chance for a re-connection, but at this point, how am I supposed to feel?

It's been over 1 month since we last had a vocal conversation.

It's been nearly 1 month since I last heard a peep from her at all.

It's been over 3 weeks since my last text to her on the 15th of August.

Natural thoughts: "How long is this going to go on?" "Is this silence THE ANSWER?"

Strange how they will remain somewhat close, even as they're treating us like this; they will come in and like a comment on Facebook or social media; they'll test us; they won't remove us from their phones/social media sites, either to continue to 'test the boundaries', or whatever it is.

I'm getting very tired of thinking about it, and expelling energy towards "wondering" in a perpetual complex swirl of curiosity and pondering. Yes, we still care and love our BPDs. Yes, we want to see them get well, we want them to come back to us, we want them to be happy, etc., but like others have said, working on ourselves seems to be the best route to go with, and that's DIFFICULT. It goes on for a while, yes, but the pain returns like waterfalls through the soul on certain days.

As painful as it is, I'm realizing as the days pass, that it may be over with us. "Over" being: she keeps me around via Facebook and doesn't delete me, but my "hourglass" has emptied of sand, and there's nothing left that she wants from me. Granted, she has a new identity and is getting validation (certainly!) from her new co-workers; she may even have a replacement (as you mentioned in your case), so "Me" being the once shining star in her sky who she called her "best friend," the one that "came into her life to save it," the one she says she "loves," the one she says she "missed very much!" and so on, has become a mere vagabond in her barren landscape. I'm painted black. I'm given the NC. I'm tired of mentally-grinding and wondering if it will end, or if it doesn't end, how I'm going to react, respond, trying to validate and take advantage of what I've learned. As loving and compassionate as I am, it's difficult. I told her while I was in her bed that I loved her very much, and I wept out of joy; she said, "I love you too!" I told her again, while we were in her kitchen, "I love you very much," and she looked right at me and said, "I know you do, [my name]." I feel like she knows I'd be good for her, that I could love her unconditionally and sacrificially, but perhaps she wants a "control freak," she wants the stormy relationship; perhaps she wants what she has had before--men treating her terribly, controlling her, abandoning her in the middle of London, England, stranding her; confusing her, lashing out at her, etc. Maybe that is what she wants and perhaps I'm just "Mr. Nice Guy" (maybe I should take Alice Cooper's advice and, "No More, Mr. Nice Guy!" ha!--YEAH RIGHT!), and so I'm not what she seeks. She told me once that, with me, after meeting me, getting to know me, etc., she had never felt completely fulfilled. In other words: Intellectually, Emotionally and Spiritually. That is what she has with me, and she knows it. In her past, it was either one or two or nothing. I didn't mention "Physically" because she and I were never romantically involved, although there were hints of that (we held hands, caressed one another, etc., but completely innocent and sweet--she caught herself feeling vulnerable, I noticed, and she quickly had to let go and remove herself and snap out of it).

Forgive my rambles here; I appreciate your kind words and will indeed keep you updated. I hope to hear ANY updates that you receive, as well. Give it some time and try and take care of yourself. For some reason, I feel like you will hear from her again. Two or three weeks is often the normal cycle, so hang in there. As difficult as it is, as painful as it is, keep on keeping on, my friend, and doing your thing. I hope and pray that she returns to you.

I believe that if they didn't care about us at all, then they wouldn't act like this. The fact that we DO trigger them perhaps proves that they care/love us. It's a complex web, as you know, but keep your head up. I hope you're feeling a little better today!

[lovers knot]

Hi LostGhost,

I'm sorry to hear you had such a bad day.   I know that you are hurting right now.   And that things look bleak and discouraging.

I wanted to give you a shout out and maybe a drop of encouragement.

Here is what I found to be true for me.

When I first met my partner, we experienced that euphoric idealization phase so common in BPD r/s.   Things were wonderful and I was walking on clouds.   I can't describe to you how happy I was.   To have someone look at me, at ME, with rapt adoration was beyond intoxicating.  It was eerie how much we had in common.  (of course this before I knew about BPD and mirroring.)   and we started to meld together.  to become enmeshed.  I'll be honest, we enmeshed into an amoeba like oneness.   and it was wonderful.   for about two months.

and then it was horrible.  really horrible.    bad things happened.   I understood why she would want to become enmeshed,  I studied about BPD, read on these boards, yeah I got it.   But it still wasn't enough.  It didn't fix things.  Understanding her behavior didn't make me feel better.   I had to understand my behavior.   What drove me into this r/s and what kept me in it.   Why I was willing to be enmeshed into an amoeba like oneness.   Once I understood my side of the street I started to feel better.

and that's why I can say, what I got from my relationship is the great gift of being more fully human, more fully me.


Regardless of whether we stay together or not, this is what I get out of my relationship with my partner.

I get to be more fully human.   More in touch with my own emotions.

I get to appreciate small things which I would normally walk by.

Knowing her has made me a better human being, and that's rare.

the bond we form in these relationships is not like other relationships.  being stuck in ruminations is exquisitely painful.  I know, I was there.   

   Nothing is worth this kind of painful emptiness.

Filling that emptiness that we once filled with another person is beyond brutal.   For me, I had to ask myself why I was so willing to fill up myself with another person.   Some of the reasons were simple.  some not.   And the answer was, it's an inside job.   

I hope you know LostGhost, that I'm trying to share my experience in hopes it lights a way forward for you.  I wish you well.

'ducks

Thanks babyducks!

Everything you say makes sense to the logical part of my brain. It's the emotional that is falling behind and not catching up. I'm actually ok with who I am as a person, what I offer as a human being both to myself and to others. My life isn't in dire circumstances or anything like that. I know I can make a full recovery for the better. I suppose I'm just disappointed that I couldn't live my life with her as a companion. To my personality type, nothing feels better in this world than having a romantic companion to share all of what life has to offer. I may come across as needy but I don't see it like that. It's simply a very strong desire, an aspiration in life. I thought I finally achieved it but to have it taken from my grasp is very disheartening.

I should give an update to my story... .and also ask further questions to gain more insight and see what you all think... .

She actually did email me back to say thank you for the gift card. Her words were excited, lots of exclamation marks etc. She said it was kind and my words made her laugh out loud. It was short but it was enough just to hear from her. I emailed a humorous response back to keep her laughing. She didn't reply to that. At about 3 AM before bed I went onto my Facebook and saw her on there and decided I might as well message her on there. We chatted back and forth a little bit for maybe an hour. Her messages were shorter and more to the point than mine. She didn't seem bitter, angry or spiteful with me. But she did seem distracted, as in, it appeared she was probably talking to someone else as well (replacement most likely).

All I can say is that by the end of the conversation, although there was no raging or anything like that, I felt worse off than when I was no contact. I could actually feel in her words that the love and admiration she once had in her heart was just gone. I was nothing more than one of those friends on her Facebook that she messages once in a blue moon to say hi to and then doesn't speak to them again for two months. I could just sense it, that the connection between her and I has been severed.

So I suppose my question is... .are they able to paint two people white at the same time?  Can I as her ex-boyfriend be white and can her new replacement also be white simultaneously? I didn't sense that I was painted black last night, otherwise I don't think she'd talk to me at all and probably would have ignored the gift card. She wasn't apologetic for anything that happened in the relationship but she also wasn't blaming either. She took responsibility for a few things, I took responsibility for a few things. It seemed like a normal conversation between two rational people.

I didn't take the conversation anywhere that would suggest I wanted to get back together and neither did she. I honestly don't know what to make of it. I feel like she sees me as either an acquaintance or a friend at most, somebody that she used to know, nothing more. Which is hurtful.

If my interest is to revisit the relationship with her at some point in the future, what is my best course of action going from here?

I just read these updates after sending my last comment, and wow... .

I'll return later tonight and respond to what has been said since these new updates have come to fruition. (Glad that she at least acknowledged your existence, but it seems like things may be very, very different now. I'll be back later!)

[lovers knot]

Real quick-like, I'll just say this before I log off for now:

Since the silence was broken, albeit in a very small and different way (but at least it was broken in some regard, and she has acknowledged your existence, thanked you, conversed here and there with you), I would say to remain centered and try not to get too emotional; often times if they notice that there's a centeredness, it will often make them return in a more complete and full capacity. There's still the core shame issues and the fear of abandonment there.

If she has a replacement at this point, I know that this hurts really bad for you, but I wonder how long that will last? The thing is, the replacement will perhaps find out for themselves what they are in for. The beginnings are usually exciting times, but I have to wonder how many times the dependency of needing a 'new' friend/whatever is for mere usage of their validation and support. Sometimes it could be a way of making someone else jealous, as well.

BPDs tend to thrive on excitement. However, when the relationship has a consistent, stable foundation and a kind of routine of normalcy, some pwBPD will suddenly lose interest. The endorphins become lackluster and suddenly, they think that "this great love" is gone, vanished, poof. Not always, but in certain cases. Of course, a lot of times a Non won't know, or understand what has happened, because of the ignorance of BPD, and that's another topic, but to know that we have once felt safe and comfortable in such a relationship, to have it sink into oblivion like quicksand, we're shocked to the core. You're their hero one moment, and their villain the next (seemingly). Then there's the push/pull, black/white, ST/NC swirl that just revolves like The Milky Way through our lives. They often rip out these once stable foundations and they move on to the next person, but still leaving the door open, because of their childhood emotions that still exist. They're like children in adult bodies, ultimately. I have to wonder if there are instances where we Nons, to certain pwBPD, become tired, boring and predictable. I won't say that this is always the case, but I've read in certain cases, this is what happens.

I'll be back to read and discuss more later... .

Bless you, my friend!

[patientandclear]

LG -- I think your last two posts taken together yield some worthwhile insights.  When you reached out to her and there was not an immediate response, you felt desolate, and doubted the entire foundation of the r/s, and contemplated being ready to give up, devalue the r/s with her yourself, and move on.  When you did hear back from her, all of that shifted.  You are now back to contemplating wanting to have a lifelong romantic r/ship with her.

Not much changed to cause this massive shift in your own feelings -- she sent a brief appreciative warm note.

To me, this big a swing in your own feelings in such a short time with so little change in the basic facts reflects that there's more radical acceptance work to be done.

The things you observed in your "I think I may be done" post are all still true.  Her feelings are there one moment and gone the next.  Your question about what the implications of that are for a relationship are still valid.  This is as true when she is present and warm as it is when she is missing or colder.  These are flip sides of the same reality, not a new reality.

I wrote you on another thread that this woman uses men.  She engages multiple men in the way she engages you, creating the impression of a deep connection.  She does this in very quick sequence.  That isn't less true because for a moment or a while she turns her attention to you.  She seems to really need to keep moving.  There are lots of valid reasons for this in her own psyche, it's not about your worth, as I know you will say you know intellectually.

This is a strong pattern.  She makes what feels like a deep connection to you, and she makes one so deep with her other ex that he kills himself after she abandons him for you.  Both are true.  This has implications you ought not to ignore in deciding whether you want to explore a life long connection with her.

My ex has a similar pattern.  I'd like to think I am unique and special in his life but it would be counter-factual to think so.  Some writer often quoted on here said that mental health is the commitment to truth over comfort.  The truth in my life is that my ex makes a lot of women feel that they are unique and special.  My actual uniqueness might lie in being more willing to endure this than others.  But that is not the kind of specialness I want to feel.

So the decision whether to "stay" involves deciding whether to stay in the actual pattern that actually exists.  Not some imaginary other pattern.  My ex is scared as all get out of commitment in a truly intimate partnership.  He has never even tried to do it for more than a few months, much as he talks about wanting it.  He truly wants freedom more than a committed relationship, and will fight his way out if someone gets in his way.  This is his core truth.  My wishing it were otherwise is utterly irrelevant to what is possible for us.  What is possible for us is either total NC, or very very superficial contact policed by me to ensure it doesn't get confusing, or me signing on to being one of several women in his emotional harem.  Those are the only options.

Knowing her as well as you do, how would you frame your actual options?  Try to be scrupulously honest with yourself.  Then decide how you want to orient yourself toward the actually available choices.

[babyducks]

Hi LostGhost,

there was something going on in another thread that made me think of something here in yours.   

it was about the different focus of the Staying board.   primarily the focus of Staying is on us, the other half of the equation.   what we were talking about there was this.

Our emotional responses are always up to us. We do have choices. We aren't puppets on a string. We can learn to stop following and participating in the dysfunctional dance our partners are trying to lead us on. We can choose to start a new dance, and stick with it, hoping our partners will soon follow us.

So we spend a lot of time looking at ourselves, and our reactions.   It's not meant as a criticism and it's not a judgment.   It's food for thought.   You never can tell when an idea will take root only to germinate later on when it's needed.

So I suppose my question is... .are they able to paint two people white at the same time?  Can I as her ex-boyfriend be white and can her new replacement also be white simultaneously? I didn't sense that I was painted black last night, otherwise I don't think she'd talk to me at all and probably would have ignored the gift card.

I have noticed recently that people use the phrase "paint two people white", "paint me black" as if to indicate relationship status, and I have to say that's not a colloquialism I am particularly familiar with.     Yes, people who suffer with BPD have the trait of idealization and devaluation of not just their partners but many aspects of their life.   Yes, people with BPD can idealize two people simultaneously, be attracted to two people simultaneously and pursue relationships with two people simultaneously.   That's not unique to BPD suffers, just about all of us can do that.   People with BPD are people, objectifying their behavior into the least common denominators is not helpful.


patientandclear raised some very good points.   I am going to piggyback onto her thoughts here,

LG -- I think your last two posts taken together yield some worthwhile insights.  When you reached out to her and there was not an immediate response, you felt desolate, and doubted the entire foundation of the r/s, and contemplated being ready to give up, devalue the r/s with her yourself, and move on.  When you did hear back from her, all of that shifted.  You are now back to contemplating wanting to have a lifelong romantic r/ship with her.

Not much changed to cause this massive shift in your own feelings -- she sent a brief appreciative warm note.

To me, this big a swing in your own feelings in such a short time with so little change in the basic facts reflects that there's more radical acceptance work to be done.

to be this reactive to the moods of your gf is not good for either of you.   to be in a r/s with a pwBPD you have to be calm and centered.   upstream in this thread I talked about my partner having a mood and me reacting to that and her reacting me and both of us ending up like berserk super balls.   

calm and centered means you do want you want to do, and allow your gf to express her opinions, thoughts and emotions.   you emotions are based on your actions, not hers.  radical acceptance means you understand there will be days where she is either emotional fatigued, bothered by something, or just not functioning at her best.

If my interest is to revisit the relationship with her at some point in the future, what is my best course of action going from here?

first click on the link

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=62266.0

that's the blueprint,   it takes a great deal of emotional stability to be in a relationship with a pwBPD, cultivate that calm centered stability.

and pay attention to patientandclear... .she's pretty smart.

'ducks

[LostGhost]

Ugh... .I wrote out a very lengthy reply and then my iPad died so I'll have to start over.

[unicorn2014]

Can I ask why you want to get back together with her? To me it sounds like you've been given a gift from God to not be with her anymore.

[LostGhost]

I want to thank you all for your replies, understanding, patience and caring.

I've realized a few things over the last days thanks to your help.

I've discovered some of my own black and white thinking. I see that I come across as needy. I wasn't this way while I was in the relationship, I didn't need to spend 24/7 with her. But outside of the relationship, I feel lost like a boat that's adrift at sea. I don't feel depressed, I know what that feels like. I am optimistic and hopeful regarding the future, yet I don't find as much enjoyment in day to day living. I don't derive the same level of satisfaction from my hobbies, socializing, exercising, anything really. I miss my constant companion, the intense connection and bond that I just do not see or feel in anyone else. I am tethered by an invisible cord to her and that cord provides me with some otherworldly type of sustenance of a quality that can't be quantified and it's something that I'm unable to find anywhere else or replicate on my own. She's most certainly with someone else now and I can feel that connection withering away and dying. I am treated at best like a casual acquaintance or merely a friend. I was surprised to learn they can paint multiple individuals white simultaneously. I'm not sure why that's a revelation but I made the false assumption that for one person to be white, another had to be black. I spent an inordinate amount of time trying to remain her ideal partner but I see now that doesn't matter, they could idealize multiple partners at once. What an immense waste of effort on my part.

I had a dream the other night. I was standing with a row of strangers in a large room, we were all dressed in black and wearing masks. My ex was brought into the room and told to select a partner. She chose some random person and left me there.

After reflecting for such lengthy rumination sessions on my relationship with her and the last two years, I've come to understand that despite everything I felt and believed to be real and profound - the cruelty is that to her, I wasn't anything special, I wasn't unique, my personality wasn't substantial in any way and I wasn't important to her or loved by her in the ways I imagined I was. What I represented to her, despite all of my best intentions, was a source of energy, a supply of validation. A human battery. Nothing more. When my fuel cells were depleted, she placed me on the recharging station and moved on to the next source of fuel. There is no need to check in on me to see if I'm ok or to concern herself with my feelings. A battery exists for one reason alone.

Inside of her, in the deepest, most inaccessible recesses of her very core, there exists a massive black hole whose only function is to consume energy in an attempt to become whole. This black hole does not discriminate. It does not care about your past, present or future. It does not care if you are weak or the pinnacle of strength. It does not care about your gender or your appearance. It does not care if you are young or old. Its will is bent only towards one purpose - to feed on your energy, your supply of validation, your identity. Everything that makes you who you are, it wishes to appropriate towards its own agenda. This entity does not care if it destroys or kills you in the process. It has only one mandate - survive at all costs.

This entity is cunning. It has the power to enter your mind and manifest itself in any form it believes is best to convince you it is not harmful - intense sexual energy, a broken and scared child, someone in deep need of support or rescue. It releases intense feelings of bonding that are euphoric in nature. It fulfills your deepest desires to pull you in. Once it finds a method to appeal to you and secures you as a supply, its work is done. You free fall into its orbit without even realizing. As you descend deeper and closer to the epicentre, you are pulled further away from your friends, family and your own reality and identity. Like a moth drawn towards the flame that will destroy you, onwards you go. Falling, falling, falling towards that beautiful, impenetrable, spinning mass that has you so mesmerized you scarcely remember who or what you are any more.

Don't worry, you're not alone there in the nothingness. This entity keeps multiple sources of energy spinning faithfully about its orbit in various stages at all times. Some are on the very outer edges, while some are dangerously close to the center. Even if a source of energy is committed and appears stable, what should happen if that source suddenly dies or finds a way out? These unforeseen circumstances and the consequences are far too risky to accept. To be left with no supply would require the black hole to be left vulnerable and exposed, eliciting a pain so intense the magnitude can be scarcely imagined. With no sources of supply, the black hole would be forced to consume the only source remaining, the greatest victim of all - the pwBPD. This would be a mutually assured destruction of host and parasite.

Just when you're about to reach the singularity, you think you glimpse an actual being somewhere there, someone who is confused, lost, afraid. You want to help them but the closer you approach and find yourself thinking you understand this predicament, the black hole suddenly catapults you to the outer edges of orbit. You have become too much of a risk now. Your fuel is depleted, though you might be useful again later after some time has passed and it requires more from you. So you spin endlessly and lifelessly in confusion at a distance, either hoping to escape or be pulled back in.

There's two ways this ends: the black hole closes in on itself (DBT therapy) or someone/something ties a harness around you and pulls you out kicking and screaming.

This is how I now perceive it all. This entity put its tendrils so far reaching into her body, mind and soul that it is in control of nearly every action or word that she thinks is coming from her. She may not even be aware of its presence. Or perhaps the symbiosis is so complete that the host and the parasite are indistinguishable.

It forces me to ask obvious questions. Why would I want to be in this kind of "relationship"? What's in this for ME? Can you even have a real relationship build on mutual respect, love, devotion, compassion, loyalty and commitment with a black hole? I still want to go back in. Why?

Looking forward to hearing what your thoughts are.

[LostGhost]

Can I ask why you want to get back together with her? To me it sounds like you've been given a gift from God to not be with her anymore.

Good question. Very good question. It's hard to understand isn't it? You'd think I would be dancing in the street right? I think essentially it comes down to this:

"He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster. And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee."

[unicorn2014]

Can I ask why you want to get back together with her? To me it sounds like you've been given a gift from God to not be with her anymore.

Good question. Very good question. It's hard to understand isn't it? You'd think I would be dancing in the street right? I think essentially it comes down to this:

"He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster. And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee."

I'm not saying its hard to understand. I'm saying take your out while you still have it. If she's not in therapy and/or recovery and/or on medication it is not going to get better. If she has not made a commitment to you and your relationship it is not going to get better. It is hard enough to improve things when all these things are in the picture: therapy, recovery, medication, commitment. The only way a relationship with a pwBPD is going to work is if they are making some kind of regular action to change. Just my two cents.

[Ceruleanblue]

Inside of her, in the deepest, most inaccessible recesses of her very core, there exists a massive black hole whose only function is to consume energy in an attempt to become whole. This black hole does not discriminate. It does not care about your past, present or future. It does not care if you are weak or the pinnacle of strength. It does not care about your gender or your appearance. It does not care if you are young or old. Its will is bent only towards one purpose - to feed on your energy, your supply of validation, your identity. Everything that makes you who you are, it wishes to appropriate towards its own agenda. This entity does not care if it destroys or kills you in the process. It has only one mandate - survive at all costs.

I just posted something about my BPDh feeling like an immense black hole. It's a black hole I used to throw endless energy and love into, and sometimes still do. It's a waste of time.

You feel this connection with her that you do not feel you could have with anyone else, I feel, in actuality because of her disorder. I was in a relationship once, and I experienced so much, and so many of the feelings you are expressing. I think we feel this deep, irreplaceable connection and bond because it is so dysfunctional and frankly, sick. I loved him despite the fact that he was evil, and I had to get away from him, even loving him like that. I think it's the actual sickness of the relationship/person that makes us feel that way. Thank goodness, I won't find that with someone else! I don't want to ever feel like that again, because it was toxic for me.

I always thought the staying boards were inspiring. I envisioned myself having a permanent place on these boards because of my patient/loving nature. I believed I would persevere, that our relationship would be strong enough to withstand the obstacles. But you essentially have to give up your humanity. If you want to love them till the end of time, till death do you part, you have to be prepared to accept everything, abuse, violence, infidelity, neglect, silent treatment, withdrawal of sex/intimacy, that they likely won't be good parental figures to your children, they'll disapprove of almost everything you do, they won't get along with most of your friends/family. And even if you accept all of that? They could just up and leave just because they feel like it. In return, do we receive genuine love and respect? Do we receive what we deserve as human beings?

I agree with a lot of what you wrote. I'm questioning all those things. My BPDh is in DBT, but has been dsyregulating for a couple months, and I'm tired. If DBT isn't helping, what will? I don't want a life of this. If I could engender change, just by using the tools, but I've had little improvement doing that either. I want to stay, I want things to work out, I want him to be happy, but I feel he won't do the work. I feel as you do, that I'm just an energy source. Something to make his life more pleasant, even if I'm just his target. I did not get married to be a target to release his stress on. I think that's what he's always done. He preys on those he thinks are weak, so he can feel dominant. He sucks the energy, and then when you stand up for yourself, you are no longer of use.

Many with BPD get much better, but for those of us whose partners are just cycling, and take zero responsibility, we have to really question if this is something we want or even can endure.

[babyducks]

Hi Lost Ghost,

That was some kind of piece you wrote.   I could certainly see the artist in you coming to the forefront.  It was poetic.  I hope it was cathartic.   I'm very sorry you felt enough anguish to write that out for us.  I respect what you are going through. I get how hard it is.   I know you hurt.

What you described so vividly is part of the abandonment cycle,  you can find more details over on the Leaving board in their Lessons section.

Two thoughts crossed my mind as I read what you wrote.   

Here is the first.

I don't find as much enjoyment in day to day living. I don't derive the same level of satisfaction from my hobbies, socializing, exercising, anything really. I miss my constant companion, the intense connection and bond that I just do not see or feel in anyone else. I am tethered by an invisible cord to her and that cord provides me with some otherworldly type of sustenance of a quality that can't be quantified and it's something that I'm unable to find anywhere else or replicate on my own.

I understand this.   There are very complex and complicated aspects of a BPD relationship.  These are not your normal run of the mill relationships.   The bond we form is complex, the intense cycles we go through  deepen the connection, the trauma's we normally experience in these relationships further complicates things.   That's why we go through a withdrawal almost like an addiction when we try to sever the connection.

There is a reason we end up in these relationships.  It's not an accident.   What we bring to the table are our own core wounds.  Now I hate the phrase core wounds.   When I was first here and I heard it I wanted to   .  Unfortunately it's true.   What get's us into these r/s and keeps us in these r/s are our own core wounds.   That  otherworldly type of sustenance of a quality that can't be quantified you are describing?   There is a lot of truth to the fact that pwBPD attach to people who have similar core wounds as they do, we just handle them differently.   Happens to be in true in my case at least.   One of the first thing my P said to me was why do you think you chose a person who had a mental illness.  I said well she was pretty good at hiding it.  Which wasn't really true.  There were  early on.   And then I said, things were such a whirlwind in the beginning, which was more true, but let me be honest since you were with me.  A person with healthy boundaries would have beat feet very very early on, like in week 3 of our dating.   And then I said, well my mother was mentally ill when I was growing up and never really loved me.  and voila there you have it  .   My core wound was a pretty good match for my partners core wound.

I will swear to you LostGhost, it is never just one person and it is never just one problem.  People are more complicated than that.

Here is my second thought:

This entity is cunning. It has the power to enter your mind and manifest itself in any form it believes is best to convince you it is not harmful

 

Please do not give BPD this much power.   It's not fair to you.   If you mythicize this you compromise your ability to recover.  I understand how it feels this way right now.  I understand the solace in expressing the feeling.  I would strongly suggest not clinging to this feeling.   

For what it's worth, I am not in a relationship with a black hole.  I do not accept abuse, violence, infidelity, neglect, silent treatment, withdrawal of sex/intimacy, that they likely won't be good parental figures to your children, they'll disapprove of almost everything you do, they won't get along with most of your friends/family.

well okay my partner hates my one cousin so that one is iffy.

I do have a real relationship build on mutual respect, love, devotion, compassion, loyalty and commitment.

'ducks

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[LostGhost]

Hi Babyducks,

Thank you for your response. It was very cathartic in a lot of ways. I felt compelled to share my experience. Please don't take my post as an affront or statement about your relationship. It's merely an expression of how I'm feeling. Similar to how two people sitting in the ocean will tell different experiences. One might say the waters are freezing cold, they don't know how to swim, they're afraid. While the other person is having an entirely different perspective.

I thought I had the kind of relationship you did. When the switch flipped, my perspective flipped with it. BPD is hard to understand and I think I find comfort by changing it from a human problem into something more like an HP Lovecraft monster. By doing so I am able to separate water from oil. I can see my ex in a good light by creating a distinction between her and the illness.