Therapeutic Separation

[unicorn2014]

This may be my last post on the staying board.

I just informed my partner that if he does not meet with a lawyer at the end of the month to file for divorce like he said he would then we would be engaging in a therapeutic separation.

His response was to tell me that he would contact me when he moved.

That really hurt.

I told him I was not interested in that  and that the whole point of therapeutic separation was to save the relationship and that it was not the same thing as ending the relationship.

I sent him two articles about therapeutic separation but I do not know if he read them, he accused me of forcing my theory on him.

I have followed the staying board's advice, and I have taken my stand.

I'm in a lot of pain.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[thefixermom]

 

It's always been very frightening and painful for me when I've mustered the resolve to stand my ground and am met with reaction, rebellion, abandonment and anger. So often in my past I have backed down because of the pain and fear.  Once upon a time I reached a place where I could calmly and confidently ride it out and trust that my life would get better if I hung in there.  It did. But it felt like a time of great tribulation getting through it to the other side.  Looking back I can see it was a worthy ordeal to push myself through... .but while in the moment of making that stand I was gripped by heartache and uncertainty for some time.  I encourage you to keep the faith in what you know to be right.  xoxo

[unicorn2014]

Thank you fixer mom

My pwBPD is very manipulative which is why I'm going to meet with my priest tomorrow to update him on my story and make myself accountable to him. I know I'm not the first woman to be in this situation and I find a lot of comfort in that. The hardest thing is not blaming myself.

[thefixermom]

Self blame is something the enemy wants us to feel. It is not the same as having a critical view of our lives and desiring to grow.  Forgiveness of self is extremely important. Have the Grace for yourself that you know our Creator does. I know our God as a God of Love, not of condemnation.  xoxo

[unicorn2014]

Thank you the fixer mom. I have PTSD and self blame is a hallmark of that disorder. A former sponsor told me about self forgiveness. That's what I'm working on today. The God my mom told me about was a punishing God not a loving God .

[maxsterling]

I'm sorry you are dealing with this   It's difficult, but we must be true to ourselves and respect our own needs.  We can't force others to come along with us.  If others decide our needs won't work for them, changing our needs won't solve the problem.  We can do al we can to make our relationships work, but remember half is beyond our control.  He may come around, he may not.  But I feel inspired that you took a stand.

[unicorn2014]

Thank you max

He said the end of the year is not enough time to file.

I realize this may be true however he did promise me he would meet with a lawyer.

He told me he feels like he's talking to two different people.

I realized what he may be talking about is the adult me and the child me. The adult me takes a stand for myself.

I'm going to talk to my priest tomorrow about the steps I've taken and the wrongs I've realized I've done.

To further complicate things I'm dealing with mixed messages from my father who tells me it's ok to be in a relationship with a married man as long as he's getting a divorce while my faith tells me it's not.

This whole situation is definitely bringing my adult child issues to the forefront. I definitely feel like I'm caught in arrested development and I'm trying to take a stand.

Thank you for your support.

****

This was his second to last text to me

if you chose to to separate from me while I am getting a divorce. Then I will not be pursuing a relationship with you after I am

[thefixermom]

Well, he's laid it out on the line hasn't he.     I'm better understanding your situation now. I thought he was already your husband and that you were separated so my previous remarks are based on my misunderstanding.  I have a friend going through the same thing.  Each situation is different.  She took a stand, too, and it's been two years of waiting for him to file.  He still hasn't.  I'm of the opinion that a statement like the one he just gave you is very devaluing to you, as well as indicative of an insecure and self-centered (immature) person.  What do you think? As far as your father's comment, I still say that each situation is different. I have seen unhappily married people leave spouses and get married to their affair partner and be extremely happy and suitable for each other with a union that lasted the rest of their lives.  But more often I've seen the married person not wanting to give up the investment and security (emotional and/or financial) of their marriage and thus, string along the outside partner, not always because they want to manipulate but because they just don't have the courage to stand on their own and take the chance. It's as if they want the new person to make up for all the losses they might suffer. It's good to assess what you are looking at as it will be the basis of your new life, should you decide to remain in it.

[unicorn2014]

The fixer mom wrote

I'm of the opinion that a statement like the one he just gave you is very devaluing to you, as well as indicative of an insecure and self-centered (immature) person.  What do you think?

I agree and when I pointed this out to him he denied it.

What makes this relationship even more complicated is he is old enough to be my father.

He has been physically separated from his wife for over 3 years. He led me to believe he was getting a divorce from the very start. This June I asked him to show me proof of filing. He refused. Then in September I looked him up in the court system and found no filing. He claims his lawyer didn't file. After much thought I decided to give him a second chance. He said he was going to be meeting with a new lawyer at the end of this month to file for divorce.

Today I let him know that if he does not follow through at the end of the month I will be separating from him. Tomorrow I am going to talk to my priest and confess my sins .

I also didn't mention that my partner proposed to me before we met and I accepted his proposal under the belief he had filed for divorce. When I found he hadn't I was devastated. I took off my ring. Other people did not know he was married. It has been a very painful six months.

His last text to me

I will not be connecting with after the meeting

Good day

I am so glad this board is here.

Therapeutic separation is the last step to staying in a relationship with a pwBPD. My pwBPD is telling me if I do that he's ending the relationship. I knew he was going to do that which is why it took me so long to take this step. The people on this board had been advising me to take this step.

I just got this

You have seriously given me a lot to think about and the major errors I have made.

I do not want to talk with you any more today

I am an idiot for believing what I have and really screwed up

And you win

You have pushed me away

###

I knew this was going to happen which is why I waited to take this step until I had a meeting scheduled with my priest.

I have done everything I can to stay in the relationship.

I am already working on the personal inventory board on a post on the book keeping the love you find and the passionate marriage.

I do not want to go through this and I am.

[patientandclear]

Unicorn--I'm proud of you for dealing with the core issue (his not being divorced and apparent unwillingness to move in that direction). I understand you were scared to take this step because he might punish you, and he seems to be. But please remember the concept of extinction bursts and the fact that his feelings are likely to shift. He is saying these things now. What are the odds this will still be his position in 3 weeks? 3 months? Not very great. Patience and staying the course will show if he can take these steps you need him to take--if he must.

[unicorn2014]

Thank you patient and clear, he denies he punishes me.

I'm in a lot of pain right now.

I really appreciate the concept of therapeutic separation and being able to post on this board.

I also appreciate the coping and personal inventory boards.

In terms of personal inventory, I just  picked up keeping the love you find and got triggered by the introduction so I put it down. I have a lot more work to do on my coping issues. I just finished reading a survey of the four type of borderline mothers so I think I'll go update my thread on the coping board.

I will also reread the extinction burst thread, thank you for bringing this to my attention. I'm hurting right now. I did not respond to his last texts. Those were about 2 hours ago.

----

Edited to add if anybody can point me to the lesson where it talks about punishing behaviors I would appreciate this. My pwBPD denies he does this which is really crazy making for me because I've been experiencing this for a long time.

[KateCat]

Proud of you unicorn for taking this big step.

He's got some serious thinking to do now, if you stick to your decision. There's power in letting him take the time to think.

[Skip]

I sent him two articles about therapeutic separation but I do not know if he read them, he accused me of forcing my theory on him.

In a sense you are... .

Generally a therapeutic separation has negotiated terms and third party over-sight. You may want to send him your reasons why you need this and your proposal for what the terms will be - get his input.

I think you are doing the right thing but, like boundaries, don't make it a threat or punishment or an ultimatum - make it a solution.

Space will help you both.

I think you are headed in the right direction.

[thefixermom]

I'm very proud of you, too, unicorn.  You are growing and it can be very painful.  I'm concerned that the other person in your relationship is of the mind that he can take advantage of you.  That's the first thought that comes to me when I hear of the age difference.  Sometimes (not necessarily in your case) the older man will use his experience to persuade a younger lesser experienced woman. He knows on some level he can do this, which can be a factor in choosing someone younger vs a more challenging peer who would be wise to his ways. If that is the case it sounds like you are growing through this and learning much from it.  :)oesn't make it hurt any less.  But pain is a great teacher and down the road can remind us to stay away from certain situations.  

I hope you can find some healthy self-soothing activities to help you through this time. For me, lounging in a nice warm bath while reading a therapeutic book helped.  Looking for reasons to smile and have a little joy even alongside the pain.  Helping a stranger. Even things like saying "thank you" for the heartache. That really helped me through a bad break up once. I just got down on my knees and said thank you... .because I felt that one day I would be grateful... .and I was. This is a day at a time period for you. Maybe even a minute at a time.  

You sound like a wonderful person. Please go easy on yourself.  All that you go through now is contributing to the you of the future. I can see from here that you are getting stronger.

[unicorn2014]

Proud of you unicorn for taking this big step.

He's got some serious thinking to do now, if you stick to your decision. There's power in letting him take the time to think.

Thank you Kate Cat, I will be sticking to my decision. I made it today because tomorrow I'm meeting with my priest and going to confession. I wanted to let my pwBPD know what I am doing. He has until the end of the year to do what I asked him to do. He told me he would do it even though it would humiliate him. I told him I've been living with humiliation since June when  I asked him to show me proof of his filing and he denied me. I told him it wouldn't kill him.

Skip,

I have told him why I need this. I told him I was going to meet with my priest tomorrow and go to confession and that I needed to have solid ground to stand on. Since we are in a long distance relationship I don't know how we could have a third party to over see us. He has a sponsor and a therapist in my area, and a priest in his area.

I am not pursuing him.

I scanned the contents of keeping the love you find and I stopped when I read about the attachment style of loss as a child and how that results in pursuit as an adult. I realized I have lot more work to do on my coping issues.

He does not want to do a therapeutic separation. Did you read his quotes to me? I told him I did not want to end the relationship. He said he would end it if I separated from him. I knew he was going to take that stand which is why I waited until I was ready.

He has until the end of December to meet with a lawyer. I understand he might not be able to file by then and I asked him to show me proof of his meeting with a lawyer. He said that was humiliating to him. I said it was humiliating to me when he told me no when I asked him to show me proof of his filing in June and I survived. This decision to therapeutically separate has been six months in the making. Along the way I lost a sponsor in my adult child recovery.

thefixermom thank you for your support. I'm experienced, except when it comes to being engaged to  a married man, and that comes from the mixed messages I got from my father and mother about marriage and divorce. I'm divorced, have full custody of my teen, have been independent since I was 18, live on my own with my teen.

I appreciate the advice to thank God for the heartache. In my spiritual tradition we talk about how a suffering heart can make one a wiser person. My mom always told me I was a suffering person, and she rarely did anything to ease my suffering.

I appreciate your encouragement. I'm taking care of me and my teen as best I can. I am pretty shook up by how my pwBPD responded to me so I am rereading about extinction bursts to reassure myself.

[Skip]

You might want to shift this over to the "Saving Board"... .it sounds like you headed into that mode soon.

Good luck.

I think you are doing the right thing and it will be hard - hang in there.

[unicorn2014]

Thank you Skip, I will do that, I appreciate the support, I am in tears, I didn't want it to come to this.

-

If it is appropriate I will start an extinction burst thread on the saving board after I reread the lesson.

[Skip]

It's not over, Unicorn.  You are standing behind your values and responsibly setting boundaries.  Nothing here was rash or unjustified.

This may be the best thing for both of you... .get you both to think this through.   

[unicorn2014]

Thank you Skip, I have not responded to his last texts,

I will not be connecting with after the meeting

Good day

You have seriously given me a lot to think about and the major errors I have made.

I do not want to talk with you any more today

I am an idiot for believing what I have and really screwed up

And you win

You have pushed me away

###

Those are really hurtful. He send those about 2.5 hours ago and I haven't heard from him since. Usually we facetime when the sun sets, and it has set. I did not respond to those texts. We have been through many of his  dysregulations before and this time I am different. He claims his new dose of his medication is helping him not to dysregulate. I'm not seeing a difference. He is not in weekly therapy or in DBT. In fact he's not treating his BPD, just his ptsd. This is the result.

[patientandclear]

He is, sort of understandably for someone not very emotionally mature, trying to shake you from your course.  If you got shaken, he would be confirmed that he doesn't have to worry that you will enforce this sort of boundary.  (I think this may be better understood as a boundary than as a therapeutic separation since he is not signing on to those terms.)

If you do NOT get shaken however, odds are he will shift his stance.  He is gaining valuable information about who you are right now.  (Which is why we are all saying we're proud of you!)

This is just the beginning of the next part.  If you possibly can, please try not to take on board the literal weight of his current words.  They are almost certainly not where he will end up.

[unicorn2014]

He is, sort of understandably for someone not very emotionally mature, trying to shake you from your course.  If you got shaken, he would be confirmed that he doesn't have to worry that you will enforce this sort of boundary.  (I think this may be better understood as a boundary than as a therapeutic separation since he is not signing on to those terms.)

If you do NOT get shaken however, odds are he will shift his stance.  He is gaining valuable information about who you are right now.  (Which is why we are all saying we're proud of you!)

This is just the beginning of the next part.  If you possibly can, please try not to take on board the literal weight of his current words.  They are almost certainly not where he will end up.

Thank you patient and clear. He called me while I was at the store to apologize for the harshness of his text but then he proceeded to tell me talking to me was like talking to two different people so I told him that might be true, he was experiencing my child self and my adult self. Then he disagreed with me and said I was contradicting myself. I told him we were now in a circular argument and I was not going to pick it up so he hung up on me.

He also told me if I did enforce my boundary that he would end the relationship. I told him I understood that and that's why it took me six months to set it because I knew the consequences. He did however tell me that he was going to meet with a lawyer, and give me a business card having told the lawyer I would probably checking up on him. I told I wasn't sure I would be. He said something very revealing in that conversation, that he was giving me "special consideration". That made my blood run cold. I had previous conversations with my therapist who is now his therapist about his narcissism and my former therapist said he needed a certain amount of healthy narcissism to be successful in the career he's in. That statement was not healthy narcissism. Special consideration? That's highly offensive to me. Especially when he professes to love me all the time.

I don't know where things are at. He seems to have taken control of the relationship, calling me up like that and then ending the conversation when he felt like it. I neither called him back nor texted him back. I will also reread the emotional immaturity lesson from the point of view of saving the relationship. I told him I was not trying to leave him, I was trying to save the relationship and that I understood the consequences of my setting a boundary. I had read about that from other members, that often their relationships didn't survive their boundary setting. I hope that doesn't happen to me and I will deal with it if it does.

[patientandclear]

That's all any of us can do. You are doing great. It's scary because you don't control the result and you are not manipulating to try to control the result. That's what it is to give another person free choice.

As you know, my former partner chose not to continue with me on the terms I could live with. He no doubt would describe that differently--that I abandoned him because he would not change to meet my needs. Sometimes one person's control needs really do take the other person into territory that just doesn't work for them. It remains to be seen if that is true in your case. I think him giving you the lawyer's card is a possible sign of openness.

[unicorn2014]

Thank you patient and clear, now he is telling me I am telling him he is not welcome because I didn't call him back after he hung up on me. I don't know if you read my last post before therapeutic separation about turning off my Facebook timeline and that is the exact same thing he told me about that.

After he hung up on me he texted me to tell me what time it was and I told him he hung up on me. I got sick and tired of texting so I called him and I told him he hung up on me and I was not going to call him back after he hung up on me. I told him I am doing everything in my power to try to save our relationship and he told me he is not experiencing that at all, in fact he is experiencing just the opposite. Then he hung up on me again.

I am standing my ground. I think he wanted me to facetime him and I told him he told me earlier today that he would not be contacting me after his meeting, then when he called me to apologize for the harshness of his text he hung up on me again.

I definitely have my reading charted out: extinction burst and emotional maturity, and my next topic will be on the saving board.

[thefixermom]

unicorn, I see you as someone raising the bar in this relationship.  And holding him to his actions and words. I like that.

[unicorn2014]

Thank you the fixer mom, he keeps telling me he doesn't feel welcome and I've realized why. It's because he's married. Of course he doesn't feel welcome. Our whole relationship has been a violation of my boundaries. Only his divorce will fix that. I carried on for 3 years because I believed he was getting a divorce. Then when I found out his lawyer hadn't filed it sent everything into disarray. I hope that by going to confession I will fix things within myself and be able to move forward and not look back. My pwBPD things nice words will fix everything. They won't. Only actions will.

[Sunfl0wer]

I am curious to learn by reading others experiences.

I do not know much about a therapeutic separation.  I realize it is a good way to get some space to focus more on self vs the dynamic between the partner and self. It is a good way to try to stop the bleeding and to stop pouring gasoline on the relationship.  It is a good way to reunite with your partner on redefined, improved terms.  And maybe help both regain focus on the positives?

Please correct me if I am not understanding correctly, Unicorn, the general premise for persons considering a therapeutic separation, _{if you feel that framing it may be helpful to either of us.}

What confuses me is that it appears there is a lot of confusion on terms of communication in your dynamic.  He calls, hangs up... .you resolve to not call, just txt, then get sick of it and just call. I am not trying to be exact here... .but just speaking in general terms... .  the boundaries around how, when to communicate seem extremely confusing and may possibly be contributing to much anguish on both sides?  It appears expectations/anticipations keep shifting daily on both sides.  Especially because this is a LTR, and communication is the main means of connection, this sounds excruciating!

I realize that part of this may be due to the fact that there was a precedent set earlier of a lot of communication and now there appears to be imbalance due to the change.  I believe this general relationship stress could possibly good for it as often disequilibrium is something that therapists attempt to facilitate to promote positive change within a system dynamic.  So I feel there is a good point to causing imbalance to a system that is comfortable functioning with dysfunction.  It can promote positive change.

However, I worry about "the non" doing their part to model security, stability, and clear boundaries to set the tone of the progression of things during such a time.  I am saying... .if you are unpredictable in your communications (idk, Only you know if you are) ... .rather than causing things to settle from the dysequillibrium... .how can they get to a new calm place?

I am hearing a lot of focus on his behavior.  He is the pwBPD, I EXPECT him to do poorly in the face of such a challenge to the relationship, I would be surprised if he behaved any differently. (I realize that doesn't make it any easier) What do you see as your role in this therapeutic separation for self growth and relationship healing?  It sounds like the burden is completely now on you to lead things in the face of you BOTH facing some of your worst fears for the relationship... .while not even being able to lean on the other for support.  (Sorry  ) How do you shift focus on Unicorn in all of this, to be the best model/leader for the relationship?  It sounds like for this relationship to last into the years to come, this is the new role you need to champion, and this before you, may just be that ultimate challenge to pass through as sort of a preparation.

My thoughts on possible solution to consider:

You both appear to be engaged in a competition of emotional needs.  How does this cycle end?  Maybe part of the separation process is for you to relinquish all sense of having any needs from him at this time?  Releasing all expectation of him?  If you can remove the idea of assigning importance to any of his behaviors... .then maybe some resentments will ease? (Easier said then done)

_{I apologize in advance that my words are not very exact... .my mind struggles to get my thoughts just right at times.  Please try to grasp my meaning without too much distraction for its general accuracy... vs the important concepts I am trying to express}.

[unicorn2014]

Hi sunflower he doesn't want to do a TS so it's become a boundary issue. I'm reading about extinction burst. I didn't handle his well yesterday. Next time he tells me he's not going to connect with me after his meeting I will put my phone in do not disturb mode and mute our conversation. I will post about extinction bursts on the saving board once I'm done reading that lesson.

[Skip]

Hi sunflower he doesn't want to do a TS so it's become a boundary issue. I'm reading about extinction burst. I didn't handle his well yesterday. Next time he tells me he's not going to connect with me after his meeting I will put my phone in do not disturb mode and mute our conversation. I will post about extinction bursts on the saving board once I'm done reading that lesson.

Unicorn, there is a lot of passive aggressiveness going in both directions - stopping that is a big part of TS.

Don't call it TS anymore. The words are poison now  - just take the actions.

Draft some terms for the separation for his input and lets work that draft with you. If he looks at it and says, I'm not doing this, just say OK, we are at an impasse and I suggest we take a break for 2 weeks and think about what we really want.

It might take a bold effort.

, you need space

[unicorn2014]

Thank you skip, I'm giving him until the end of the month to find a new lawyer. I realize he may not be able to file by the end of the month.

He said he does not want to give me space, if I take it he will leave.

I guess the space would be if he does not give me the business card of his new lawyer then I will take a 2 week break from the relationship, something I've never done before.

Another idea is if he tells me he's not going to connect with me for the rest of the day again to tell him I need to take a 2 week break .

I am open to ideas.

///

I should add he outright denies he engages in passive aggressive behavior, even when I'm not accusing him of it.

[Sunfl0wer]

Another idea is if he tells me he's not going to connect with me for the rest of the day again to tell him I need to take a 2 week break .

Idk what others think... .

I think it is great when he decides to take space.  I think rewarding and thanking him for this may be more helpful than more withdrawing behavior that can appear punitive.

[unicorn2014]

Sunflower I didn't withdraw. He called me later that evening to apologize for his harsh texts and then he ended up hanging up on me.

So I guess next time he says that then I'll say ok then I'll talk to you tomorrow, I love you, and then ignore him if he calls or texts?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Sunfl0wer]

Something I learned in couples therapy is that my ex had a lot of shame.  It was always my role to send him an olive branch.  My role was always to make it EASY for him to come back to me no matter what.

In that spirit... .

I'd say... . I will respect your need for space.  I am here when you are ready to talk to me again... .be it tomorrow or earlier, that is up to you.  I love you and hope to talk soon.

My tone and intentions were always important.  They needed to express genuine compassion too.

[unicorn2014]

Sunflower isn't That kind of reply enabling his bad behavior?

... .I will respect your need for space. I am here when you are ready to talk to me again... .be it tomorrow or earlier, that is up to you. I love you and hope to talk soon.

that's not how I feel, other then "I will respect your need for space ... .I love you"

he told me he wouldn't be doing a TS with me he would be leaving me if I did a TS and then he said he wouldn't be connecting with me after his meeting . That was yesterday afternoon.

Today is a new day and everything is fine. I didn't feel genuine compassion yesterday. I told he we needed a TS if he didn't get a lawyer and he told me he would leave me if I did a TS. That makes me angry. I was doing everything I could to try and improve the relationship and that was his reaction . That's water under the bridge now.

[Sunfl0wer]

I assume that you are talking with him or txting, or some kind of communication in order for him to express his desire for space?

So while you are talking, are you wanting to talk with him at that moment?  Or are you talking but not wanting to talk? 

So is it true that you actually DO want to be talking to him? (Hence you wouldn't be in the first place?)

It is not true that you are happy to begin talking to him again when he is ready? 

[Sunfl0wer]

Sunflower isn't That kind of reply enabling his bad behavior?

Enabling can be positive or negative.

The way I see it is that allowing him space is enabling him to self soothe his feelings on his own vs leaning on you to fix them.  Or it is him being aware when his frustration level is too high to be reasonable, therefore tending to his need of space.

His need for space is about him... .not something he is doing TO you.

[Sunfl0wer]

I almost hear that he IS in fact struggling, trying to reach back out to you, then feels scared away at some point in the interaction... .and disengages.

Actions from you or him can serve to

Distance

Bring closer

Neutral

If both partners are employing distancing actions... .then... .well... .there will be a greater divide.

[formflier]

Thank you patient and clear, he denies he punishes me.   I'm in a lot of pain right now.    

     Unicorn,    I understand you are in lot of pain.  Hang in there!  This is a great time to take space.  Taking space is not ignoring him or being mean.   You are attempting to take some very important steps.  Stay the path and be consistent.  I understand that he denies that he is punishing you and I would guess (please clarify) that you don't believe you are punishing him.  Here is the thing.  I believe you feel punished and I would assume he does as well.    It appears to me that you are both locked in a cycle of responded to each others hurts and hurting of each other.  Appears very painful.    Please take care of yourself and take some space here.           

FF  

[thefixermom]

unicorn, just stopped in to say that I hope the meeting with your priest today was helpful.  Thinking of you.

[unicorn2014]

Sunflower wrote

It is not true that you are happy to begin talking to him again when he is ready?

When he tells me he will not be connecting with me after the meeting and then he calls me when I go to the store to say he's sorry for speaking harshly to me and then ends up hanging up on me, no, I am not happy to talk to him. I would have liked him to stick to his word and not talk to me until tomorrow.

[unicorn2014]

Sunflower also wrote

The way I see it is that allowing him space is enabling him to self soothe his feelings on his own vs leaning on you to fix them.  Or it is him being aware when his frustration level is too high to be reasonable, therefore tending to his need of space.

His need for space is about him... .not something he is doing TO you.

You sound very positive.

I don't care if he takes space.

I want him to stick to his word if he takes space. That's what's so frustrating . He tells me at 2:30 he will not be connecting with me after the meeting then he calls me after the sun sets to tell me he's sorry for speaking harshly to me then he hangs up on me. I don't like that. I don't find it helpful. I feel by me picking up the phone I was enabling him. Next time he tells me he's not going to connect with me after the meeting I would like to be able to tell him that's fine, then I will talk to you tomorrow, and then ignore him after that. That is what I would like to be able to do. I am tired of being jerked around by his erratic emotions.

[formflier]

  I would have liked him to stick to his word and not talk to me until tomorrow.  

     If you were amenable to the agreement to not talk until tomorrow, and it seemed that you were.  Why answer?  Basically, if you are in a situation where talking to him is not something you are happy with, why would you talk?    Let him do what he will do, and same to you.   Hang in there.  Hope you meeting went well.      

FF

[unicorn2014]

Sunflower wrote some more

I almost hear that he IS in fact struggling, trying to reach back out to you, then feels scared away at some point in the interaction... .and disengages.

Actions from you or him can serve to

Distance

Bring closer

Neutral

If both partners are employing distancing actions... .then... .well... .there will be a greater divide.

That may will be true and I was not distancing myself, he was. I don't like playing games. I don't want him to be able to talk to me that way and then get away with it. That's not good for me.

Today is a new day and we aren't having those problems.

I know why he's in the position he's in and it has nothing to do with me. He made some bad plans before he met me and now they are coming to fruition. That is where I can have compassion and mercy for him, not for how he is treating me.

[unicorn2014]

Formflier wrote

I understand that he denies that he is punishing you and I would guess (please clarify) that you don't believe you are punishing him.

Here is the thing.  I believe you feel punished and I would assume he does as well. 

It appears to me that you are both locked in a cycle of responded to each others hurts and hurting of each other.  Appears very painful. 

Yes that is true, I think. I think he might have said I was punishing him. I know I am frustrated , very frustrated. I also know he made some plans before he met me that had nothing to do with me and now those old plans are getting in the way of his new plans. I can have compassion for that and not how he is treating me.

[unicorn2014]

The fixer mom wrote

corn, just stopped in to say that I hope the meeting with your priest today was helpful.  Thinking of you

yes it did thank you. I am grounded in what I need to do. I hope my pwBPD obtains a lawyer by the end of this month because if he doesn't I may be leaving my relationship and not by choice.

[unicorn2014]

Formflier also wrote

  you were amenable to the agreement to not talk until tomorrow... .and it seemed that you were.  Why answer?

it was not an agreement it was him telling me he would not be connecting with me after his meeting because he didn't like what I was saying. I was not happy with that at all. I am not happy I answered when he called last night. Next time I want to do better. Today is a different day.

Yes my meeting went well, thank you.

[thefixermom]

Thanks, unicorn... .so happy to hear the meeting went well.     I'm proud of you.  I see a woman with convictions doing her best. 

[unicorn2014]

Thank you the fixer mom one problem solved

[unicorn2014]

Formflier, I'm actually ok right now. What I was saying is I am not happy how I handled yesterday.

Today I talked to my priest, went to confession, I am at peace. I'm standing on solid ground. Its only Dec 18. My pwBPD has until Dec 31 to pick out a lawyer. If he does not have a lawyer by Jan 1 then I  will have a problem so  I am going to enjoy my peace while I can. My pwBPD has made it clear to me that he will not be doing a TS so if he doesn't have a lawyer by the end of the year then I will deal with that then. Some had suggested I move over to the saving board, and also read about extinction bursts and emotional immaturity.

My pwBPD dysregulated yesterday because I told him I would be separating from him if he did not have a lawyer by the end of the month, that's what that was about. So I got my message out and the dust has settled. I made a joke to him tonight about his using up his dysregulation for the week yesterday. We've joked about that before.

[Sunfl0wer]

I don't want him to be able to talk to me that way and then get away with it. That's not good for me.

What do you do to be sure he doesn't get away with things?

[unicorn2014]

Form flier wrote

Please take space from each other so you can get a respite and you can provide a respite for your SO.

The amount of pain and suffering you are each heaping on each other is incredible, the more this goes on the longer it will take to heal, or perhaps may destroy the relationship.

I don't know how familiar you are with apologetic theology and there is a form of apologetic theology where you destroy a false world view. I am applying this to my relationship. I will take your concern into consideration and talk to a former spiritual leader about this.

[unicorn2014]

I don't want him to be able to talk to me that way and then get away with it. That's not good for me.

What do you do to be sure he doesn't get away with things?

I now realize that is not the correct approach to take with him. Do you suggest a better approach?

[Sunfl0wer]

I don't want him to be able to talk to me that way and then get away with it. That's not good for me.

What do you do to be sure he doesn't get away with things?

I now realize that is not the correct approach to take with him. Do you suggest a better approach?

I do not know what "things" constitutes and what happens after "things" to have an opinion on this. 

It sounds like you are trying to focus on the big picture these next weeks.  Maybe continued focus on that is the best course vs focus on other specifics?  (Like you seem to be doing)

[unicorn2014]

Hi Sunflower, I'm still not sure what you're asking. I told my partner he has until the end of this month to secure a lawyer. I realize that may also be a tough deadline to meet however I will stand my ground that I need to see some proof of action that he took to move his divorce forward. If he is not able to produce proof of this then I will have to separate from him. He does not want to separate from me and he said he would leave me if I separate from him. Those are the cards on the table. So now I have to wait.

[KateCat]

Please take space from each other so you can get a respite and you can provide a respite for your SO.

The amount of pain and suffering you are each heaping on each other is incredible, the more this goes on the longer it will take to heal, or perhaps may destroy the relationship.

FF

unicorn, I think your guy has given you a great big clue about his reality. It lies in his repeated use of the word "humiliation."

One could guess at the reasons an actual divorce would be humiliating for him. (I've seen tons of divorce documents and my imagination doesn't need much prompting.) Sparring daily with him right now will only increase his sense of impending humiliation. And demotivate him.

Do you feel able to step completely away from him and his decision until the first of the year? It's not long, and I think it's the best chance this relationship has. Just let him sit and gather his courage.

[unicorn2014]

Please take space from each other so you can get a respite and you can provide a respite for your SO.

The amount of pain and suffering you are each heaping on each other is incredible, the more this goes on the longer it will take to heal, or perhaps may destroy the relationship.

FF

unicorn, I think your guy has given you a great big clue about his reality. It lies in his repeated use of the word "humiliation."

One could guess at the reasons an actual divorce would be humiliating for him. (I've seen tons of divorce documents and my imagination doesn't need much prompting.) Sparring daily with him right now will only increase his sense of impending humiliation. And demotivate him.

Do you feel able to step completely away from him and his decision until the first of the year? It's not long, and I think it's the best chance this relationship has. Just let him sit and gather his courage.

I could step away completely and he couldn't so if I do that he will feel rejected. I understand what you are saying about humiliation and I am divorced too. It was not humiliating for me at all, it was liberating. I appreciate your input. You mention you've seen tons of divorce documents. Does that mean you are a family law attorney?

[KateCat]

I am not. I worked as a legal assistant for my local prosecuting attorney's office in a family law environment.

Divorce documents so often reveal personal and financial failings kept secret until the filing. Gloves are off, and facts are laid bare. Spouses who have been keeping each other's secrets often no longer do so. If a person spent money he or she didn't have, the documents may detail this rather specifically.

I'm trying to think of reasons other than the above that your guy would not have kept his promise to you. I don't get the sense that he values you so little. More the sense that he is not brave enough to face the facts. That he feels you will reject him.

[Sunfl0wer]

I apologize for forming the sentence as a question;There really is no question that I have right now.  I originally was posting in this thread as I was confused as to the process of a therapeutic separation... .and interested in the concept as a tool for helping a relationship. 

I figured since you were attempting this, and that I was confused, that me asking questions which helped define this could be beneficial to all... .yourself, and those reading the post ... .me included.

However, as the post progressed, it appears that you are really not in fact able to do a therapeutic separation as you do not have the cooperation of your partner... .lending my original intent moot.

It then appeared to me that the concept of both you and your partner taking some form of space from one another appears to be an issue of stress and focus.

My question regarding your interactions was an attempt at probing into this area to gain some clarity of the issue... .to see if that would help get you some more specific advice with an issue that appears reoccurring.

However, working with what keeps coming up for you as quoted below, it appears that you are simultaneously maintaining a firm focus on the bigger picture of things.

I realize that may also be a tough deadline to meet however I will stand my ground that I need to see some proof of action that he took to move his divorce forward. If he is not able to produce proof of this then I will have to separate from him. He does not want to separate from me and he said he would leave me if I separate from him. Those are the cards on the table. So now I have to wait.

I am not certain though that this is a 'tough deadline' as he has known this request from you for sometime now.  (I feel you have been MORE than fair and have not requested anything exceptional of him at all.)

It sounds like you are trying to both be strong and stick to your values of loving yourself, while at the same time having compassion for his situation.  This sounds like only the best that anyone can do under such circumstances... .and a challenging stance to maintain.

[KateCat]

"It's going to take him some time to even find his deck of cards, let alone show them"

Boy, well put.

This is exactly what I think, unicorn. He has put a lot of years and a lot of effort into creating a certain impression for you. He is being asked to do something really, really tough here.

[unicorn2014]

Kate cat I do not know why he hasn't kept his promise to me. He says his lawyer didn't file his divorce with the court. He says he has to hire a new lawyer.

I learned from this thread that without cooperation from the other party there is no TS so what we are talking about is a boundary.

I am going to follow the advice  to read about extinction bursts and emotional immaturity and to move over to the saving board.

[unicorn2014]

Sunflower thank you for understanding .

[Kwamina]

This thread has reached its post limit. Thanks everyone for participating.