Setting boundaries - Am I on the right track or do I need to adjust?

[Woodchuck]

Tonight my W went to bed without a word.  When she heard me in the kitchen, she asked who was up.  I responded that it was me.  She asked me if I could give her cat the pill that she is supposed to get every night.  My first inclination was to just go ahead and do it.  While she was gone for a week last month, she had left a container in the refrigerator with the pills all set and ready to go in a small ball of cat food.  I could have figured out where the pills and cat food were tonight and at first, that is the route I was going to take.  I then decided that this is something that she is fully capable of taking care of herself.  I told her that I was not sure where all the stuff was or how she wanted it done and that she would need to take care of it herself.  She didn't say anything but came out and took care of giving the cat the pill and then went back to bed.  Am I going/thinking in the right direction as far as setting boundaries or should I try looking at things like this a different way?

Woodchuck

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[pearlsw]

Hi Woodchuck,

Can you explain a bit more please. Why didn't you want to do this for her? Is there a backstory here?

sincerely, pearl.

[Woodchuck]

Hi Woodchuck,

Can you explain a bit more please. Why didn't you want to do this for her? Is there a backstory here?

sincerely, pearl.

Pearl-
It is not that I didn't want to do it for her.  The back story is basically that she has told me for years that she doesn't need me or want me to do anything for her etc.  I have worn myself out trying to do everything she asks and finding things to do that I believe she would want.  The boundary that I am setting is letting her take care of things the she is capable of.  I would much rather there be be a healthy relationship and be able to mutually meet each others needs etc but from my perspective, that is not really possible under the circumstances.  There was no spite involved, it actually took me stepping back and evaluating things and making a decision to let her take care of things that she is is capable of.

Woodchuck

[Learning2Thrive]

  Woodchuck,

I have worn myself out trying to do everything she asks and finding things to do that I believe she would want.  The boundary that I am setting is letting her take care of things the she is capable of.

My husband (not BPD) does this for me (also not BPD) too. And it drives me nuts because he doesn’t always choose what I want and I feel left out of the conversation. I’m thankful he cared, but don’t feel like he’s listening to me or wants my input.

While your boundary is OK, it could be perceived as punishment unless she understands what’s going on.

What if you tweaked it a little and put the boundary on yourself?

What if it was something like:
I will not wear myself out finding things to do for my wife that I believe she wants. I will let her ask me for what she wants and then I will decide if I am willing and able to do it?

Thoughts?

L2T

PS... .I actually prefer to do most things for myself. Your wife may not be anything like me. I was just offering a different perspective.

[Woodchuck]

Woodchuck,

My husband (not BPD) does this for me (also not BPD) too. And it drives me nuts because he doesn’t always choose what I want and I feel left out of the conversation. I’m thankful he cared, but don’t feel like he’s listening to me or wants my input.

While your boundary is OK, it could be perceived as punishment unless she understands what’s going on.

What if you tweaked it a little and put the boundary on yourself?

What if it was something like:
I will not wear myself out finding things to do for my wife that I believe she wants. I will let her ask me for what she wants and then I will decide if I am willing and able to do it?

Thoughts?

L2T

PS... .I actually prefer to do most things for myself. Your wife may not be anything like me. I was just offering a different perspective.

L2T-
Thank for your perspective.  It is helpful to look at things from many different POVs.  Your idea may be a better approach.  The looking for things to do without her asking is a result of her claiming that she does everything as well as stating over and over that she hates doing certain things.  Washing dishes and grocery shopping are two prime examples.   I am kind of in a lose/lose position though because when I try to take care of the things she claims to really dislike, I get attacked for doing them wrong.  The boundary attempt tonight though was more a response to her telling me over and over she doesn’t need me and she doesn’t want me to do anything for her. It is very difficult to constantly hear that and then have her make simple requests as she did tonight.  How is it that someone can be ok with telling someone over and over that they don’t need them and don’t want them to do anything for them and then turn around and ask them to do something?   As I said though, it may be healthier to take your approach.  I am still learning and trying to figure out the best way to handle things. 

Woodchuck

[Learning2Thrive]

I am kind of in a lose/lose position though because when I try to take care of the things she claims to really dislike, I get attacked for doing them wrong.  The boundary attempt tonight though was more a response to her telling me over and over she doesn’t need me and she doesn’t want me to do anything for her. It is very difficult to constantly hear that and then have her make simple requests as she did tonight.  How is it that someone can be ok with telling someone over and over that they don’t need them and don’t want them to do anything for them and then turn around and ask them to do something?

Yes, it is very frustrating and difficult to deal with. Perhaps she is projecting when she’s telling you she doesn’t need you? Perhaps she feels that you don’t need her because you’re doing all these things for her and she hasn’t even asked you to (could be triggering her shame)?

Most people (women or not/BPD or not) respond to validation. I know sure do. Perhaps if you can just listen and validate her feelings—even if you don’t agree with them—perhaps it may help her de-escalate a bit?

Have you read through the ending conflict lesson? I have used this tool in many situations (not just BPD related).
https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

What are you doing to take care of you during this tumultuous time?

L2T

[Woodchuck]

Yes, it is very frustrating and difficult to deal with. Perhaps she is projecting when she’s telling you she doesn’t need you? Perhaps she feels that you don’t need her because you’re doing all these things for her and she hasn’t even asked you to (could be triggering her shame)?

Most people (women or not/BPD or not) respond to validation. I know sure do. Perhaps if you can just listen and validate her feelings—even if you don’t agree with them—perhaps it may help her de-escalate a bit?

Have you read through the ending conflict lesson? I have used this tool in many situations (not just BPD related).
https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

What are you doing to take care of you during this tumultuous time?

L2T

L2T-
It is quite possible that she is projecting.  The only thing that makes that less of a possibility is that if I or the kids ask her to do something, the majority of the time, she will say she is too busy.  So I guess that response combined with her claiming that she does everything is at best very confusing. 
I know that she appreciates validation.  Things were great last year when I focused a significant amount of effort into validating her and the frustrations she had with homeschooling etc.  The problem was that I was getting little if any validation in return and I ended up burning out.

I have read through the ending conflict and have made adjustment with how I respond to things.  I now take a few moments, sometimes several moments to digest what is being said and attempt to validate the feelings that are associated with what is being said.  I have had a habit of responding in a very JADEing way and have recognized after reading about the effects of JADEing how counter productive that is regardless of whether I am right or wrong. 

As far as taking care of myself, one major thing I am doing is interacting here.  Reading others experiences and going through the different tools that are available have really helped me stay grounded.  I am also continuing to see my therapist and reaching out to family and friends for support. 

Woodchuck

[Learning2Thrive]

L2T-
It is quite possible that she is projecting.  The only thing that makes that less of a possibility is that if I or the kids ask her to do something, the majority of the time, she will say she is too busy.  So I guess that response combined with her claiming that she does everything is at best very confusing.

What is she doing during this time (that she says she is too busy)?

I know that she appreciates validation.  Things were great last year when I focused a significant amount of effort into validating her and the frustrations she had with homeschooling etc.  The problem was that I was getting little if any validation in return and I ended up burning out.

I totally understand the burnout. That’s why self care is so very important.

I have read through the ending conflict and have made adjustment with how I respond to things.  I now take a few moments, sometimes several moments to digest what is being said and attempt to validate the feelings that are associated with what is being said.  

That’s awesome! Good work.  

I have had a habit of responding in a very JADEing way and have recognized after reading about the effects of JADEing how counter productive that is regardless of whether I am right or wrong.

Yep, it’s somewhat counterintuitive. I used to be the JADEing queen. Still not perfect, but getting better. It definitely takes practice for me.

As far as taking care of myself, one major thing I am doing is interacting here.  Reading others experiences and going through the different tools that are available have really helped me stay grounded.  I am also continuing to see my therapist and reaching out to family and friends for support.

This is good, but do you have a hobby or passion that is unrelated to her? Something that’s just for you?

For example, I love to do long distance road bicycling; but have recently started riding a fat tire mountain bike because my time is limited and I can’t ride 50+ miles several times per week on a regular basis. But I can scrape together an hour or so several times per week to go out on the fat bike and explore dirt roads and trails. My husband knows I need this to be healthy and he supports it.

Likewise, my husband likes to meticulously build models and spends a fair amount of time doing that. I support him doing it because he really enjoys it and it helps him feel good.

What do you enjoy? It’s important to nurture yourself. You are worthy.  Not only that, but taking care of yourself and being your best self helps you be able to bring out the best in others.

L2T

[Woodchuck]

What is she doing during this time (that she says she is too busy)?

Typically she is on her phone or computer.  Again, the I am too busy is really just another control tactic.

This is good, but do you have a hobby or passion that is unrelated to her? Something that’s just for you?

For example, I love to do long distance road bicycling; but have recently started riding a fat tire mountain bike because my time is limited and I can’t ride 50+ miles several times per week on a regular basis. But I can scrape together an hour or so several times per week to go out on the fat bike and explore dirt roads and trails. My husband knows I need this to be healthy and he supports it.

Likewise, my husband likes to meticulously build models and spends a fair amount of time doing that. I support him doing it because he really enjoys it and it helps him feel good.

What do you enjoy? It’s important to nurture yourself. You are worthy.  Not only that, but taking care of yourself and being your best self helps you be able to bring out the best in others.

L2T

I do have a hobby.  I spend a bit of time in my shop.  It is quite soothing for the most part.  I tend to get a bit conflicted as there has been a large number of attacks for spending too much time in the shop so I have a hard time getting motivate to go out there and work a lot of the time even though I know I do not spend too much time there normally and if I did there are healthier ways for her to address her concerns.  Again, I realize that I cannot change her, I have to adjust and look at what is and what is not a 'pink elephant'.

Woodchuck

[Learning2Thrive]

Typically she is on her phone or computer.  Again, the I am too busy is really just another control tactic.

So do you and the kids go do whatever you were inviting her to do without her? Or do you all do nothing if she says she is too busy?

I do have a hobby.  I spend a bit of time in my shop.  It is quite soothing for the most part.

I’m curious. What kind of shop is it?

I tend to get a bit conflicted as there has been a large number of attacks for spending too much time in the shop so I have a hard time getting motivate to go out there and work a lot of the time even though I know I do not spend too much time there normally and if I did there are healthier ways for her to address her concerns.

Maybe you already do this? What if you scheduled your time in the shop? What would she do or say if you told her in advance that you love her and she’s super important to you but you really need this time for yourself as it relaxes you? I think it might be helpful to specify how long you will be in the shop so she knows when you will be available again... .in case it’s her fear of abandonment that is being triggered.

Again, I realize that I cannot change her, I have to adjust and look at what is and what is not a 'pink elephant'.

Yes, this is so true, Woodchuck.  

L2T

[Woodchuck]

So do you and the kids go do whatever you were inviting her to do without her? Or do you all do nothing if she says she is too busy?
I’m curious.

It really all depends.  I am moving more to just going ahead without her even though that will probably mean either raging or ST afterwards.

What kind of shop is it?

I have a woodshop.  I have built it up over the last several years to the point where it takes up our garage and a bit of our basement.  It is really a lot of fun and satisfying.  It is nice to have a hobby that actually pays for itself and more. 

Maybe you already do this? What if you scheduled your time in the shop? What would she do or say if you told her in advance that you love her and she’s super important to you but you really need this time for yourself as it relaxes you? I think it might be helpful to specify how long you will be in the shop so she knows when you will be available again... .in case it’s her fear of abandonment that is being triggered.

I wouldn't say that I have tried scheduling exactly.  I have asked her if we could sit down and figure out how much time would be good.  I have limited time to begin with as I am up at 4:30AM to get to work and don't get back until around 5-5:30PM.  After taking care of dinner and/or whatever other things need to be taken care of, I only have a short bit of available time to actually spend.  Any attempt to try to discuss things with her usually just results in her saying that I am free to do what I want.  If she actually said what she meant, it would be more like do whatever you want and you will find out what the consequences are.  This has resulted in quite a bit of anxiety which I am beginning to understand that I should not feed into.  I need to determine what I believe is a good balance and go from there.  If she decides that she wants to provide some input, that would be great but I shouldn't expect that to happen.
[/quote]

Woodchuck

[Learning2Thrive]

It really all depends.  I am moving more to just going ahead without her even though that will probably mean either raging or ST afterwards.

This is good. Her decision should not be allowed to ruin fun for you and your kids.  This can actually be another positive boundary.

I will allow my wife to be who she is and make her own decisions, but I will not allow her decision to change my/the kids plans.

It’s true that she may rage or give silent treatment afterwards. This is a form of extinction burst... .which is a temporary ratcheting up of behavior to a dramatic explosion in order to bring everything/everyone back to the preferred dysfunction.

You could even develop more boundaries around this behavior. Something like:

If she gives us the silent treatment, we will not respond. We will not react. We will do something fun for us. We will leave for a little while if necessary. (Note, if you do this, calmly and as lovingly as possible let her know you will be back, even if it’s leaving a note).

If she rages, I will tell my wife calmly that I love her and understand she is very upset right now; but I will no longer allow myself or our children to be subject to such hostility. We will go for a walk, take a drive, ... .fill in the blank ... .to give her time to calm down.

I have a woodshop.  I have built it up over the last several years to the point where it takes up our garage and a bit of our basement.  It is really a lot of fun and satisfying.  It is nice to have a hobby that actually pays for itself and more.   

Very cool! I thought that it might be a woodshop based on your name, but didn’t want to assume. . Creative hobbies are the best!

I wouldn't say that I have tried scheduling exactly.  I have asked her if we could sit down and figure out how much time would be good.  I have limited time to begin with as I am up at 4:30AM to get to work and don't get back until around 5-5:30PM.  After taking care of dinner and/or whatever other things need to be taken care of, I only have a short bit of available time to actually spend.  Any attempt to try to discuss things with her usually just results in her saying that I am free to do what I want. 

It’s clear you do a lot for your family and care for your wife very much. What would happen if you took a more direct approach and simply stated what you are going to do, with no explanation or justification (no JADEing)? If she gives silent treatment or rage afterwards, refer to your boundaries. If you keep doing this calmly and consistently, a new—hopefully healthier—behavior pattern will emerge.

Keep taking good care of yourself Woodchuck. Things can get better but it takes time. She’s very lucky to have you.

L2T

[formflier]

  The back story is basically that she has told me for years that she doesn't need me or want me to do anything for her etc.  I have worn myself out trying to do everything she asks and finding things to do that I believe she would want.  The boundary that I am setting is letting her take care of things the she is capable of.


    There was no spite involved, it actually took me stepping back and evaluating things and making a decision to let her take care of things that she is is capable of.

 

Hey Woodchuck

I'm going to joining Pearlsw in asking about the backstory.  I think you need to come back to backstory and explore that a lot more.

Such as:  This is what the past has been... .this is what I think my boundaries will "do for me now".

At first glance, it seemed like a simple thing to say yes to.  I also know, as do most of us, that life with a pwBPD is anything but simple.  So... can we unpack your decision/boundary a bit more?

How did you feel when she asked you?  How did you feel when you "asserted your boundary"?  How did you feel when she got up and gave the meds?

As you consider your response I would invite you to the material below.  What "jumped out at you" in the article?  What seemed hard to understand.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries


I don't often post on this board, yet when I see posts about boundaries I often jump into the conversation.  Boundaries are the number 1 tool (by far) that I used to "stabilize" my relationship.  I could even make an argument that they "improved" my relationship.

FF

[Skip]

If you are interested in a woodchuck, we've got one (see avatar/animals/14b)

If we were social scientists, we would identify what happened with the cat pill as "passive resistance".  If is generally a reaction to feeling bullied.

Regardless, it is conflict escalation.

There is a longstanding cycle of conflict ongoing in your relationship. You both are spinning the the wheel of misfortune. 

Check out the tools in the top tool bar. It will help these conversations.

I agree with Pearlsw and formflier, let did into the backstory.

[Woodchuck]

At first glance, it seemed like a simple thing to say yes to.  I also know, as do most of us, that life with a pwBPD is anything but simple.  So... can we unpack your decision/boundary a bit more?

FF-
The back story is really just years of consistently telling me that she doesn't need me or want me to do anything for her.  When I first started posting on here and sharing about how the comments made me feel, it seemed that there was encouragement to let her take care of things that she could take care of, in a gentle and loving way.  In a sense, I feel like under the circumstances that I am basically 'feeding the monster' when I do things that she asks me to do that she is capable of.  She may tell me thank you but in the back of my head, all I hear is 'I don't need you, I don't want you to do anything for me' and that hurts a lot.  I have tried to communicate this hurt and the response that I will normally get back is that it is not her problem that I choose to feel that way and that it is true that she doesn't need me or want me to do anything for her.  As with many of my other posts, it is just another example of mixed messages.  I may have misinterpreted comments to earlier posts about how to handle requests for things that she can take care of on her own.
[/quote]

How did you feel when she asked you?  How did you feel when you "asserted your boundary"?  How did you feel when she got up and gave the meds?

I immediately felt like just taking care of it.  The discussions that I have had on here kicked in and I felt like this was a perfect opportunity to set a boundary and let her take care of things she can take care of.  I guess I felt 'proud' of myself for calmly and gently telling her that I was unsure exactly how she administered the pill and that she would need to take care of it on her own.  I really kind of felt like setting the boundary was successful as she quietly got up and took care of it and went back to bed.  I feel that if I would have asked where the pills were and how to go about it, she would have lashed out and come storming out to do it herself.  This is just an assumption.

As you consider your response I would invite you to the material below.  What "jumped out at you" in the article?  What seemed hard to understand.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

The first thing that jumped out to me is that boundaries are value based.  I had read the article before but reading a few more times was good, I think.  One of my core values is to treat others as you would like to be treated.  I am not perfect at that.  I lash out at times.  I can get angry.  I can be selfish.  I believe I do try my best though and admit when I fall short.  The part that seems hard to understand is how these boundaries are supposed to be 'inter-dependent'.  I don't understand how that works in this kind of relationship.  If I follow my core value of treating others as I want to be treated, then I would have without even thinking about it, given the cat the pill and done it happily.  It is a simple task.  But at the same time, if I do that, then I am in a way supporting her behavior of telling me that she doesn't need me or want me to do anything for her.  I guess I don't understand how she can be ok with making the types of comments quite often, never apologizing for them but rather saying that she is NOT sorry and then making requests for me to do something.  The more I think about it, the more confused and frustrated I become.

Woodchuck

[Woodchuck]

I think before we go into a boundaries discussion, we need to understand the problem we are trying to solve.

Woodchuck, it sounds like you are in the third or fourth stage of communication break down.  What do you think?

Skip-
Many aspects of stage 4 are correct.  The most important aspect (in my opinion) of the stage is avoidance.  I do not believe that I am avoiding my W at all.  I don't know how many times I have reached out and been rejected.  I feel like the avoidance is an issue on her end.  There is a lack of trust on both ends.  I know that we do not trust each other.  There are steps I take for self preservation.  I believe that I am most in stage 3 where it seems like there is a gridlock and doing anything to make anything better will only make things worse.

[Skip]

Many aspects of stage 4 are correct. 

If you and your wife are collectively in stage 4 (or deep into 3), you both are in a very difficult place and the chances of surviving all of this are not great unless something changes significantly.

When people are in Stage 4, they each feel persecuted by the other person.

Let's take the cat pill as an example.

You explained, accurately, why you feel persecuted by this simple request.

Now lets look at it from her side. She might be saying, "I asked my husband to give the cat her pill, and he is so lazy and uncooperative, that he said he didn't know how to do it. My 6 year old daughter can give a pill to a cat!"

See how this goes - she spins the wheel of misfortune,when it slows down, you spin the wheel, when it slows down she spins the wheel... .it never stops spinning.

Somehow you (2 of you or at least one of you) have to stop spinning the wheel as hard as that is to do... .and it is hard because you both are deeply conditioned at this point.

Think about it. Look how wrong this gift thing has gone from both sides... .you (meaning a couple) can't even give and receive at this point.

Does that make sense?

[Woodchuck]

If you and your wife are collectively in stage 4 (or deep into 3), you both are in a very difficult place and the chances of surviving all of this are not great unless something changes significantly.

When people are in Stage 4, they each feel persecuted by the other person.

Let's take the cat pill as an example.

You explained, accurately, why you feel persecuted by this simple request.

Now lets look at it from her side. She might be saying, "I asked my husband to give the cat her pill, and he is so lazy and uncooperative, that he said he didn't know how to do it. My 6 year old daughter can give a pill to a cat!"

I guess the way I see it is if the constant comments about not needing me or wanting me were not there, this would not even be an issue.  The bottom line is that I DID want to meet her request.  What I don't want is the negative comments about not needing me or wanting me to do anything for her.  I do care about how she feels.  She has stated over and over that she does not care about how I feel.  I guess it seems like the suggestion is to continue to be a doormat.

See how this goes - she spins the wheel of misfortune,when it slows down, you spin the wheel, when it slows down she spins the wheel... .it never stops spinning.

Somehow you (2 of you or at least one of you) have to stop spinning the wheel as hard as that is to do... .and it is hard because you both are deeply conditioned at this point.

Think about it. Look how wrong this gift thing has gone from both sides... .you (meaning a couple) can't even give and receive at this point.

Does that make sense?

This does make sense and I believe that give a very good effort to stop spinning the wheel.  Am I perfect at it?  No.
I guess I don't see how the gift thing has gone bad on both sides.  and I don't think that it is an accurate statement that I cannot give or receive.  The cat pill incident is the first time that I can recall telling her 'no'.  There are many many times just in the last month where I have happily obliged her requests or taken care of things for her.  For example, the youth trip that she went on with the kids.  I did not agree with her decision to go at all.  I communicated that to her but then let her do her thing.  Not only that but I did whatever I could do to be supportive (at least that is how I see things).  I made sure that the gas tank was full and the insurance and registration were both updated and easily accessible.  I noticed that she had forgotten a few things when she left and messaged her to see if she wanted me to bring them to her at the meeting point where they were going to leave from as a group.  Her response was 'I don't care'.  I grabbed her things and brought them to her.  That is an example of how I typically handle things.  As far as gifts go, I love giving her gifts.  The only gift that I know of that does not render negative feedback is chocolate.  Since I do most of the grocery shopping, I pick up some for her (not to mention all the other things that she is particular about) when I go to the store.  This is usually met with silence.  Another example would be when I go went out to grab a bite to eat one evening a few weeks ago, I noticed the drink she had mentioned wanting to try was available at the soda fountain machine.  After finishing my meal, I refilled my cup with the flavor she had wanted to try.  I bring it home to her and let her know what it is and I am met with silence.  I guess what I am trying to convey is that I care deeply, probably too deeply about this woman and am constantly thinking about what I can do or say to meet her needs etc.  I do not feel like that feeling is returned at all and I have not found a way to just turn it off and not continue to care about meeting her needs etc.

[Skip]

I guess it seems like the suggestion is to continue to be a doormat.

We don't teach "doormat" here. We teach strength. If you ever feel I am suggesting "doormat", it will help to assume I am not ad reread what is being said.  

You are really beat down. None of  this is obvious when we are in this state. It helps to have someone who is not beat down bring in a flashlight.

 

I guess I don't see how the gift thing has gone bad on both sides.  and I don't think that it is an accurate statement that I cannot give or receive.

Be strong WC.

I'm not saying that you are doing something wrong, I'm referring to the two for you. Re-read her side of the cat pill story - it is just as valid as your side. Which is the point.

You not doing the pill is you spinning the wheel. Her seeing you as incapable is her spinning the wheel.

The same with the gift... .She can't give it in a loving way and you can't thank her in a loving way.  Don't worry about fault... .try to look at the transactions between you. Relationship are a series of transactions.

Both of you are doing what people do when you are in Stage 4. It is natural. But it leads to divorce 88% of the time.

The first step to reversing this (if it can be reversed) is to accept that this is what is going on.

You don't seem ready yet. I get that.  Maybe the best thing is to file this in the back of your mind for a few days, weeks, and think about it. See if you can buy this.

Fixing this is an effort. You will need to believe in it to sustain that effort.

Maybe the good thing right now is to read the article and commit to reread it in a week.

Hang in there!  There is hope.  People do recover form this.

Skip

[pearlsw]

Hi Woodchuck,

This is tough stuff! I want to acknowledge that you are doing your best in a difficult set of circumstances and that making the effort to do so says a lot about you - your goal here is to be the best husband you can be and hopefully save things if there is any chance to.

One thing I'd like to toss in here, the first thing that comes to mind as I read over this, is that the things your wife says sound... .like things a disappointed kid says. The things someone says when they have given up on other people, for whatever reason. When they feel they can't rely on anyone. She is saying she doesn't need you, perhaps, because she doesn't want to need you. Disappointment, and not getting your needs met hurts and she'd rather "go it alone" than rely on you. That is just one read on this. In a way, they may be small tests to see if you do care and will help or not. She may be so far down the path of disappointment that she buys into her own damage here, but deep, deep down she would probably like help (for some things) and to feel she has someone to rely on.

So, in response to that, and kinda knowing she is saying things to both communicate the above and to hurt you for the pain she is feeling... .well, the best response (for you), or at least one response, is to depersonalize all of it. These are literally "just words" she is throwing at you because she has seen the words hurt you and it is her being able to throw her pain back at you. So, don't take on the pain, but do try to cut to the underneath of what is happening.

My read on the cat pill thing is that this would have been an easy thing to do. I know, it hurts, for now as you work to readjust the whole dynamic. You might not see gratitude in return for this act, but these kinds of acts, and taking these small "wins" can add up in time. You do this, you are the good guy, whether she sees it or not. This does not make you a doormat, it makes you a participant in a relationship.

I'll stop for now and think a bit more on this! Let's keep working on this! 

wishing you peace, pearl.

[Woodchuck]

One thing I'd like to toss in here, the first thing that comes to mind as I read over this, is that the things your wife says sound... .like things a disappointed kid says. The things someone says when they have given up on other people, for whatever reason. When they feel they can't rely on anyone. She is saying she doesn't need you, perhaps, because she doesn't want to need you. Disappointment, and not getting your needs met hurts and she'd rather "go it alone" than rely on you. That is just one read on this. In a way, they may be small tests to see if you do care and will help or not. She may be so far down the path of disappointment that she buys into her own damage here, but deep, deep down she would probably like help (for some things) and to feel she has someone to rely on.

So, in response to that, and kinda knowing she is saying things to both communicate the above and to hurt you for the pain she is feeling... .well, the best response (for you), or at least one response, is to depersonalize all of it. These are literally "just words" she is throwing at you because she has seen the words hurt you and it is her being able to throw her pain back at you. So, don't take on the pain, but do try to cut to the underneath of what is happening.

Pearl-
I don't know how to depersonalize them and make them just words.  I try to not let them get under my skin but with the frequency that they are said, I find it impossible. 
Today we had a discussion about the best way to move forward.  The discussion did not go well.  She wants to keep things the way they are until the kids graduate.  My daughter is 11.  That is 7 more years.  She thinks it would be best for us to live apart but in the same house.  She however also made it very clear that she will not contribute a 'red cent' to 'my lifestyle' regardless of whether she is working or not.  This means that she wants to basically be room mates but I have all the financial responsibility.  How can someone even think this way?  She stated that if she is going to pay for anything that she will get her own place.  She will not pay for anything unless she has full control over it.  I think it is the combination of being told I am not needed or wanted with the constant 'using me' that really makes things cut deep.

My read on the cat pill thing is that this would have been an easy thing to do. I know, it hurts, for now as you work to readjust the whole dynamic. You might not see gratitude in return for this act, but these kinds of acts, and taking these small "wins" can add up in time. You do this, you are the good guy, whether she sees it or not. This does not make you a doormat, it makes you a participant in a relationship.

I'll stop for now and think a bit more on this! Let's keep working on this! 

wishing you peace, pearl.

It seems that I am not able to successfully explain that taking care of the pill would have been my normal reaction, regardless of there being conflict or not.  It would have been easy for me to not even think about it and just take care of it.  That is what I typically do, it took a conscious effort to step back and think, 'this is something that she can do' and gently let her know.  There are very consistent small wins similar to this.  There have been for years and there has been no good from any of it.  I am tired of participating and getting emotional/verbal abuse in return.  I don't know how many times I have come home in just the past month after working 12 hours a day and asked her if she has plans for dinner.  Most of the time, her answer is not, meals are not her responsibility.  I will then just go about taking care of dinner.  Is there gratitude?  Nope.  But there are either attacks for feeding the kids fast food or for making a 'fancy' dinner.  The issue with food goes on with being attacked for not taking a packed lunch to work and getting food at the cafeteria while she eats at home.  I am irresponsible because I do this and she is being financially responsible and and I financially hurting her by not packing a lunch.  The list really goes on and on.  She hates going to the grocery store and instead of appreciating that I go for her because I understand she doesn't like to go, she attacks me for not shopping how she would shop.

WC

[Skip]

I will then just go about taking care of dinner.  Is there gratitude?  Nope. 

There is a lot of resentment here o both sides. To fix it, it will help to know what is driving it.  Think about the underlying problems, not the surface emotional expressions, but the underlying issues.

1. What is it that you have resentment about? Can you narrow it down to the one or two biggest. deepest, resentments for you?

1. What is it that she have resentment about? Can you narrow it down to the one or two biggest. deepest, resentments for her?

It seems that I am not able to successfully explain that taking care of the pill would have been my normal reaction, regardless of there being conflict or not.  It would have been easy for me to not even think about it and just take care of it.  That is what I typically do, it took a conscious effort to step back and think, 'this is something that she can do' and gently let her know.  There are very consistent small wins similar to this.  There have been for years and there has been no good from any of it. 

I think we understand this. What is it you think we are not getting. What was the in?

[pearlsw]

Pearl-
I don't know how to depersonalize them and make them just words.

Hi WC,

I'm sorry if you are feeling hurt or misunderstood about the cat pill stuff! It is not always easy to get the picture here, nuances and all.

There are lot of issues here. You are on the receiving end of a lot of criticism and it seems like you are feeling used and unappreciated. That is indeed a hard place to be.

Learning to depersonalize is a skill and it takes time. Sometimes I can do it, sometimes I feel really, really insulted and fed up too. We're here with you. We get it. Making things better is not something that happens instantly, unfortunately. But it helps if we can understand your story better and talk over different aspects of it so I am glad you are here with us!

Do you think you will accept her terms for living apart but in the same house?

take care, pearl.

[Woodchuck]

There is a lot of resentment here o both sides. To fix it, it will help to know what is driving it.  Think about the underlying problems, not the surface emotional expressions, but the underlying issues.

It is very true that there is a lot of resentment on both sides.  This has been greatly amplified over the last week due to a few issues:

- Me stepping back and evaluating things and that resulting in bringing up a lot of the past that I had pretty much let go of.  I don't go around thinking about all the things I have mentioned on a daily basis normally.
- Things going from the frying pan into the fire at home, meaning my wife claiming that she suddenly wants a divorce and is not going to be there financially when I retire as planned.
-Me feeling a complete inability to anything right or being able to depersonalize a lot of things.  I seem to be unable to let comments just roll off my back and I don't know how to change that.  How do I just let constant comments roll off my back?  How am I supposed to depersonalize someone telling me that they don't feel respected or loved and that there is nothing I can do to help them feel respected or loved?  I am sorry but that makes me feel like an absolute  failure and I am completely torn up inside.  I have not been myself for the past 3-4 days with how things have quickly escalated. 

1. What is it that you have resentment about? Can you narrow it down to the one or two biggest. deepest, resentments for you?
My biggest resentment is trusting her to be there and help and then getting the rug pulled out from under me.  I also resent working my tail off to try to make things better while she sits there and says that she can't do anything to improve anything and that I am the problem and I need fixed etc.  I resent being told that she would be relieved if I was dead and then instead of apologizing for it, doubling down on it over and over, saying she isn't sorry that she said it, it is my fault that she feels that way.  I resent her not seeing that I try very very hard to do what is right and put her first and am also man enough to admit when I fall short.  I resent her telling me over and over that I don't take accountability for anything when I take accountability for any mistake I make and own that mistake and try to learn from it and move on.  I resent the feeling that she has played for 20 years and is leaving as soon as I retire or demanding that I continue to support her financially regardless of the fact that she is working full time.

1. What is it that she have resentment about? Can you narrow it down to the one or two biggest. deepest, resentments for her?
Her biggest resentment is my affair.  No amount of apologies, counseling, openness or anything else has done anything to heal that wound.  I might as well have told her yesterday.  She also resents that she has stayed home while I have been in the workforce for the last 14 years.  She resents that I don't have a problem with and actually enjoy doing things around the house like cooking and other housework.  She views this as a slight or judgement against her.    I don't know how to put anything else into words.


I think we understand this. What is it you think we are not getting. What was the in?

I really don't know what else to say about the pill issue.  I guess I am frustrated because I am misunderstanding the advice I have received in the past here about dealing with her not wanting or needing me.  Whether I administer the pill or not, I do not believe it is going to be a win aside from the fact that I was doing the kind thing.  Doing the kind thing is typically what I default to but at the same time I am tired of doing the kind thing and then just being attacked. 


[/quote]

[Woodchuck]

Hi WC,

I'm sorry if you are feeling hurt or misunderstood about the cat pill stuff! It is not always easy to get the picture here, nuances and all.

There are lot of issues here. You are on the receiving end of a lot of criticism and it seems like you are feeling used and unappreciated. That is indeed a hard place to be.

I think it is a combination of everything happening.  I feel completely overwhelmed with my W suddenly wanting a divorce because something was the last straw but she won't tell me what that last straw is.  On top of the, as you have probably seen, her changing the plan we have had for the last few years has really put a lot of pressure on me and I feel completely overwhelmed.  I do not feel like myself at all.  I feel like a complete emotional wreck.  The post that I started a few weeks ago (link below) is what prompted me to make the decision that I did about the pill.  Maybe I completely misunderstood what was being suggested as a good way of dealing with things.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=327358.0

Do you think you will accept her terms for living apart but in the same house?
 

The honest answer is I do not know.  I need to give it a lot of thought.  I do not understand how she can think it is ok for both of us to be working but me be 100% responsible for all the bills.  I don't know what healthy parent would allow their grown child to live with them rent free with no responsibilities unless there were circumstances that warranted that.  I am not saying at all that I view her as a child, it is just that I don't get that mentality of basically being a room mate but not chipping in on expenses.  If she wanted to split expenses, not even necessarily 50/50, I would be more ok with but I still don't know that I could handle it emotionally.  Living 8 years as room mates and no legal/moral way to have a romantic/intimate connection with someone, instead living in a house with someone that I can't stop caring about but they can't stand me and not being able to do anything about it.  Ultimately, the answer I believe will be no, I am not ok with it.  If I am not ok with it, she believes that I am giving her an ultimatum and she has to move out but then when I tell her that I am ok with her moving out but I am not ok with her taking the kids, her tune changes and she says that she is going to stay.  At that point though, I am still stuck with the entire financial responsibility.  It just seems like a bunch of mind games and I am very tired.  I do appreciate everyone listening and having a place to vent.  I apologize if a seem a bit off.

WC

[Skip]

This sounds like she is in a very unhappy place. she is pushing your buttons, you are flooded and incredulous about it, and she is getting some relief from that.

I know it my "BPD" relationship, my ex once said she was hurting me because it wasn't fair that I was happy. I think she meant that she was in a trap in a tough situation (which was true for her) and I wasn't.

I only point this out because it seems like she has started a cycle of conflict here, the wheel is spinning. She is ok with it spinning and she can poke the bear (you) into spinning it harder.

I'm not taking any judgement, I'm just trying to put a finger on where the leak in the dam is.

Did the relationship start crashing when you rejected the house she liked and called off the move? Was this the straw that broke the camels back?

It really seems like the first thing to do here might to calm yourself and not let her drive everything with her frustrations... .not let he pokes drive the strong emotions that she may actually be getting some relief from.

[Woodchuck]

This sounds like she is in a very unhappy place. she is pushing your buttons, you are flooded and incredulous about it, and she is getting some relief from that.

She is in an unhappy place and has been for a very long time.  I am partially responsible and seeing her this way literally breaks my heart.

I know it my "BPD" relationship, my ex once said she was hurting me because it wasn't fair that I was happy. I think she meant that she was in a trap in a tough situation (which was true for her) and I wasn't.

I only point this out because it seems like she has started a cycle of conflict here, the wheel is spinning. She is ok with it spinning and she can poke the bear (you) into spinning it harder.

This is very true in our relationship.  She states over and over that 'hurt people hurt people'.  This is definitely a true statement but I do not should be used as justification to hurt for years and hurt other people in turn.

I'm not taking any judgement, I'm just trying to put a finger on where the leak in the dam is.

Did the relationship start crashing when you rejected the house she liked and called off the move? Was this the straw that broke the camels back?

It really seems like the first thing to do here might to calm yourself and not let her drive everything with her frustrations... .not let he pokes drive the strong emotions that she may actually be getting some relief from.

I completely understand you are not taking judgement.  I am probably more defensive than I should be with how things have transpired in the last week or so.  I have been looking forward to retiring for a long time and I am now dreading it.  I have no idea what the 'last straw' was.  The house incident happened months ago and was only brought back up again recently.  She believes that I am a 'traitor' because I have gone to our pastor to seek advice and have shared personal things with him.  That may be the last straw especially considering the fact that I am continuing to talk to him despite her desire for me not to.  If she discovered that I was here, I am terrified of what her reaction would be.  I have to talk to someone or I will implode.  I believe she wants to keep me silent and not share things and she is feeling desperate because I am starting to refuse to remain silent.  I really wish I had the skills to just let things roll off my back.  I am trying to just not let her get to me and go on calmly with what I need to do but at the same time I can only take so much.  At this point right now, I really just wish I had someone to give me a hug and cry on their shoulder.  I am exhausted.

WC

[pearlsw]

At this point right now, I really just wish I had someone to give me a hug and cry on their shoulder.  I am exhausted.

WC

Hey WC,

We're here and you are safe with us! I've been through a big ongoing rolling crisis myself and share some things in common with you.

I took a lot of heat for speaking to a minister earlier this year. I thought I had finally found a way to get some much needed in person support, but nope. No matter that he was probably twenty years older than me and married, he had a penis, so out came the accusations, and a giant meltdown from my SO.  

It sounds like you need some time to gather yourself and have some peace.

I am sorry you are worried about retirement. I understand. I know that is scary and not what you want to hear. I am sorry she is unable to resolve things in a typical/healthy way with you.

Take a break. Reread all folks have written. I know it helps you a lot when you post on others threads and you offer a lot to folks here, perhaps shift to that mind frame for a bit.

Take it easy!

Many hugs, pearl.        

[Woodchuck]

Hey WC,

We're here and you are safe with us! I've been through a big ongoing rolling crisis myself and share some things in common with you.

I appreciate that.  I am very sorry for what you are going through.  It is horrible to feel alone and unable to do much to make things better.  I hope that you are able to get through the crisis quickly and find true resolution.

I took a lot of heat for speaking to a minister earlier this year. I thought I had finally found a way to get some much needed in person support, but nope. No matter that he was probably twenty years older than me and married, he had a penis, so out came the accusations, and a giant meltdown from my SO.  

That does sound very familiar.  The only difference is, the pastor I am talking to is a man as well.  What my W is concerned about is what I say to him.  It does not matter that I have been very open and honest with him about all my shortcomings.  She thinks that I just want to slander her, which is how she would look at my interactions here.  I have found that it is very important to have someone to talk to and I have gone a long time without having someone to talk to.  I hope that you will find someone that you can find the personal support that you need.  I understand how vital it is.

It sounds like you need some time to gather yourself and have some peace.

This is very true.  I am not sure how I will find peace but I hope and pray that I do.

I am sorry you are worried about retirement. I understand. I know that is scary and not what you want to hear. I am sorry she is unable to resolve things in a typical/healthy way with you.

It will all work out I am sure.  I have always believed that I can do anything I put my mind to.

Take a break. Reread all folks have written. I know it helps you a lot when you post on others threads and you offer a lot to folks here, perhaps shift to that mind frame for a bit.

Take it easy!

Many hugs, pearl.        

Thank you for the hugs!  I will continue to post and provide support as I can.  It is therapeutic in a way.

WC

[BeagleGirl]

Woodchuck,
I totally understand the desire to be hugged by someone and allowed to cry on their shoulder.  That feeling isn't as intense for me right now, but I was definitely feeling that yesterday.

I was at a museum exhibit that showcased artwork and poetry from people who suffered from mental illness, including depression.  The piece that will never leave me was painting that contained the words "I went to a funeral and I wasn't crying for the deceased.  I was crying for myself and knowing this was this was my only opportunity to have people hug me."  We are not alone in that longing.  That knowledge doesn't make the longing any less intense, but it has helped me to know that someone else really understands it.

I reached a point where I could not deal with the constant turmoil.  I did what I could to try to depersonalize and stop spinning the wheel, and all the other things being suggested, but I was so hurt that I wasn't functioning well and my best was not all that great.  I decided at that point to initiate the therapeutic separation that I had been asking for.  I hoped that it would provide the space for me to deal with my feelings and approach the marriage with less hurt driving my actions.  Long story short, my marriage ended 16 months later, so it's not a course of action I would recommend taking unless you are willing to accept that possibility.  Short of that, therapy, sleep, exercise, eating well, and other self care can sometimes bring the level down a bit and maybe help you get your feet under you again.  WAY easier said than done.

I will briefly weigh in on the cat pill thing.  I think you got the heart of the boundary idea and it took courage to implement it, but I think you may have missed the mark on the situation in which you chose to enforce it.  If the goal of the boundary was to get her to stop saying that she doesn't need you, I don't know that refusing (no matter how politely) to do something for her would be connected in her brain with her comments about not needing you.  MAYBE if you said "I would do this for you, but I'm still hurting from you saying that you don't need me. I feel like giving the cat its pill would be proof to me that the hurtful statement you made was unfounded and unfair, and I want you to either admit that you need me, at least enough to save you the trouble of giving the cat the pill, or show that you really don't need me by not asking anything of me." then she'd see some sort of connection.  Do you see how convoluted that argument is?  I'm not thinking there was much chance that she had any thought of her comments about not needing you when she asked for you to give the cat the pill, or when you refused.  Do you think it was connected for her?

If you were to say "I am hurt by your comments that you don't need me and your lack of acknowledgement/appreciation for what I do for you.  Until I see those from you I will no longer be doing things that you request." that would be a bit closer to the boundary that you were trying to enforce.  But since her hurtful comments and the requests she makes are probably separated by enough time for her to not link them... .it's probably just going to feel like passive aggression. 

I have some more comments, but am heading out, so I'll come back later.  In the meantime, I'm wishing you a measure of peace and clarity.

BG