Hello Duluoz  . Thank you for sharing your story. It sounds like you`ve taken a difficult situation, and turned it into an experience from which you grew and learned and became stronger. That is so inspiring to all of us. Keep it up, the future is bright

Hello iloveonions, and welcome to the forum  ! I`m sorry to hear that there have been difficulties in communicating with your partner, but I`m glad you found us and decided to post. You are amongst people who `get it`. I will get the ball rolling by making a few points myself, and other members will also be able to chime in.

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First, I read in your post that you are feeling worn down, and burned out. That is understandable. Arguing in circles can be so draining. It is commendable that you want to be a reassuring presence for your partner, but that starts with showing up for yourself. How do you take care of you? Do you have any support, hobbies, self care activities that allow you the much needed `recharging` period that you need? You can count this support group as one such outlet of course  .

Second, you ask about validation. I myself am learning how to practice validation. Thankfully, there are many opportunities to practice, not only with a partner, but with coworkers, family members, friends...even with yourself! All that to say, it`s a skill like any other, that can be improved. Here is a link to an article on this website about the topic : https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating . Have you had a chance to read it? What are your thoughts? 

To summarize my points, navigating episodes and arguments with your BPD partner is a two-fold approach : taking care and showing up for yourself, while also utilizing sometimes counterintutive approaches and skills that can be learned and improved upon. Then, when all that is said and done, you can let go, knowing you have tried your best, and that ultimately a dynamic is between two people, and that not all the responsibility falls on your shoulders.

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So, to answer your questions :

1. I think, on the contrary, you would need to be aware of your feelings in order to grasp how they may be affecting you in the moment. Your partner may not be able to imagine how what he says impacts you (it may be beyond his emotional capabilities). That goes back to my first point of having support and ressources in place for when you are upset. Remain true to yourself, always!
2. and 3. I think you`re on the right track with your initial statement of "that would be very upsetting if your partner lied to you by saying he's just not remembering", but perhaps you could be more specific. We want to find a validation target that is closest to the other person`s emotional epicenter. Something along the lines of "I can understand that you`re upset because you believe that I am lying to you about not remembering - it makes you feel like I am purposefully neglectful." People with BPD have higher validation needs in general, and sometimes things that seem `obvious` (everyone forgets things sometimes!) can be read into and spun out of proportion in their minds. Keeping that in mind, after validating your partner`s feelings, you could offer reassurance.
4. After all is said and done, it`s okay to give yourself a time out and come back to the conversation instead of continuously engaging in it if you feel like it is escalating.

What do you think? As examples of arguments come back to you, feel free to share them.

Thank you, wow, it feels so good to know someone else has gone through this - and even worse it seems

we are still going to 2 of the failed counselors - but one she just completely thinks is totally wrong and rages on about him, the other is a couple and they have pretty much just backed off of telling her anything

She is a different person when we are with the counselors (still very defensive, but not rageful)

I could talk with any of them, but not in confidence

Actually, one of the counselors clued me in to this site, when she walked out of a zoom call and it wasn't being recorded.

If it weren't for his encouraging words to me, I don't know where I'd be.

I'm not exactly afraid for my life, although anything can happen.

I'm more interested in learning how to de-escalate the rage.

I've tried "going for a walk" and she just yells about that and nothing changes.

I've threatened to spend a night in a hotel room if she doesn't stop, but I always just resort to going for a walk.

if I truly believed that rock solid boundaries would make a difference, I'm all for it - but I don't want to make things worse if that's not the best way.

re: *How long have the two of you been married? 16 years
*Do you have any kids? If so, how old are they, and has your W ever raged at/targeted them? -no kids
*Do you have any pets or animals in the house, and has your W ever raged at/targeted them?  our dog of 14 years passed away a few months ago. She was never angry towards the dog, she loved the dog dearly.
*Do you work outside the home? Does your W? I theoretically work from home, but have been working at coffeeshops for the last few months. That is pretty much a daily fight, she doesn't think I should leave the house, but I cannot get anything done, as she'll come into my my office and start fights at any time.

*Have you stayed in touch with any of the "failed" counselors? Would any of them be able to work with you as an individual?

again, none of them would work with me individually and not be able to share with my wife.

She believes she should know anything I talk about , and it's not worth the fight,

The main reason I came here finally was I was hoping I could find a counselor that could advise me and W wouldn't know about it.

(Oh, and it feels horrible to be so secretive, but there is no other way. I desperately want to see things better, and will do just about anything to find a way to help her)

thanks so much for being a listening ear

I was blocked everywhere. The next day, she and her friend came to my house to discard me. Discarding is a team sport. Five years of friendship and relationship over in the blink of an eye. I pleaded, but she stood there with an empty stare and shook her head as her friend berated me. (Among other things: "You've been gaslighting her! You're done! Never contact her again! Have a nice life!") Then they were gone.

Like many people, I've put the pieces together as best I can after the event with as much confidence as speculation, rumination, and no accreditation can muster. Abandonment, engulfment, narcissistic defenses, and secondary psychopathy -- the whole shebang. I was invited in; I got too close; I met the abandoned inner child; and then I was "uninvited".

I have my own issues, of course -- people pleasing, low self-esteem, my own abandonment issues. I'm in therapy for the first time in my life, which bears richer fruit with every passing week.

93 days post-discard. 93 days No Contact. Some days still suck, but I've written myself a mantra for moving on, and I've memorized it.

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"I know what I’m worth. I know what I did, and I know what I didn’t do. I know that I was sincere in my heart. I know that I didn’t deserve to be met unenthusiastically after committing to her. I know that I didn’t deserve the push and pull behaviour that followed. I know that I didn’t deserve to be teased and devalued. I know that I didn’t deserve to be bullied on my own doorstep and humiliated. I know that I want a partner who can be intimate and talk into the night. I know that I want a partner I can fall asleep with in peace and security. I know that I want a partner who wants to see me and spend time with me. I know that I want a partner who can love me consistently. I know that I want a partner who works with me to solve problems privately. I know what I know, and that’s enough for me. The part that misses her is a young part of me. I need to talk to him, not her."
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Thanks for reading, and Happy Healing. 

Hello sbrmcd and a warm

You're truly not alone here; so many members have struggled with the blame, extended conflict, and circular arguments, too. So exhausting!

The first thing I thought of for your situation was our workshop on stopping circular arguments.

You aren't helped, she isn't helped, and your relationship isn't helped, when both of you engage in extended, unresolved (or unhealthily "resolved") conflict. Longer isn't better -- it can be damaging.

Effective communication with a pwBPD is often unintuitive; fortunately, we're here for you  to practice new approaches.

When you have a minute, I'd love to hear what stood out to you in the "circular arguments" workshop. Lots of good stuff there;

kells76

Just want to say from me, too -- glad you found us.

Like HurtAndTired shared, you're not alone in having to cope with escalating violence with a pwPD (person with a personality disorder -- diagnosed or not). These can be scary situations, so it's good you recognized that you wanted more support.

Just a few questions to get a better feel for your situation (details can matter in terms of the most effective and safest path forward):

*How long have the two of you been married?
*Do you have any kids? If so, how old are they, and has your W ever raged at/targeted them?
*Do you have any pets or animals in the house, and has your W ever raged at/targeted them?
*Do you work outside the home? Does your W?
*Have you stayed in touch with any of the "failed" counselors? Would any of them be able to work with you as an individual?

We recently had to call CPS about what my H's kids told us was going on at their mom's house (Mom has many BPD traits, Stepdad has many NPD traits). Their stepdad was raging, driving erratically, and throwing/breaking things while the kids were around. Things are kind of stable post-call, but very tense, and the investigation is still going on. All that to say -- we've been in a similar position as you.

These are such difficult circumstances, and I get where you're coming from of wanting more tools for when things escalate. I'll wait to hear more details from you, and you won't be alone here.

In the meantime, when you have a moment, you can check out our Domestic violence for men thread. Really important info and background in there.

Fill us in, whenever you get a chance;

kells76

... hit send too soon.

Was going to add, but sometimes the potential for conflict or a desire to avoid unpleasant conversations is more powerful than we'd like to admit.  And so we go down a path we later regret, having not confronted a problem when we should have... maybe on some level knowing that it would lead to the end of a relationship we were hoping would last longer. 

But - at least for me - having hope in such a situation showed a lack of maturity.  Life's too short to spend it hoping the other person wants the same things you do.

I think of a relationship I had more recently that went on far longer than it should have.

When we started to talk about living together and how to split expenses, she got really aggressive in shutting down my 60/40 proposal - uncharacteristically so - and it completely caught me off guard.  I wasn't prepared for that.  And we tabled the conversation and moved on.

But that was a HUUUUUUGE red flag, and a point that revealed to me how she would operate when she wasn't getting her way, and her sense of entitlement.  I shouldn't have let her squirm away from that outburst and should've really tried to nail her down.

Maintaining boundaries is perhaps the best advice here.

I've seen a few others note that point too about how manipulative people like to almost interrogate their potential partners. 

One challenge I've felt is how to recognize this sort of behavior when it happens. 

Too often I feel like I approach conversations with my proverbial "guard down."  And manipulative people sometimes know how to get you to relax and let your guard down, so that makes it extra challenging.

I hate to think one needs to be "always on" when dealing with other people, because that can be exhausting, but it's probably true in large part, especially when important discussions are happening.  You simply cannot afford to let things that trouble you go, ignore them or explain them away. 

Is this similar to how things played out the last time you attempted to leave?

Are you saying the narrative is: if it's treatable depression and perimenopause/hormones, then you should forgive her? (your wife's narrative).

That if this is true, then it's not an intractable personality issue?

38 pages is a lot. I would go through it with a therapist, and not alone.

If she apologized for physically abusing you and went to anger management classes, would that change things for you?

My ex did not make as much of an effort to keep the relationship together post-separation, but he did make attempts. If I did not agree with things he said to manipulate me back into old habits, his mask flew off quickly. I went from "you are the love of my life" to a "c&*t" in the span of 60 seconds. For saying "I can't imagine how you would treat me if you hated me."

I'm guessing your spouse is testing your limits not only out of desperation but also because she believes these new boundaries can be overcome.