She's coming back -- the demands start

[gomez_addams]

So the uBPDw is coming back from out of state next week.  Via e-mail, she asked me to find another place to stay for a bit.  Two days ago, she offered to let me have the air mattress in the spare bedroom (no A/C).  Yesterday she changed her mind and insisted that I move out for "a few days" so she can adjust.

Originally (in response to the go somewhere else/spare bedroom e-mail) I said we'd discuss it when she got here.  Kind of a stall tactic, because I was tired and didn't feel like starting an e-mail argument.

She claims I offered (a month or so ago) to move out.  One of the Ls I consulted with was adamant that I not move out, so I doubt I said that... .I get so sick and tired of being told that I said something I don't remember saying.  Yes, it's possible I blurted that out.  Possible, but extremely unlikely.  I hate being the one that has to question my own sanity/memory all the time.

Of course, I'm not going anywhere -- minus a dangerous situation.  Purchased a voice recorder (for threats/false allegations, not for "gotcha" stuff like this).

Any advice on handling this without making it worse?  I'm thinking that there is no good option, and that no matter what it will get worse.  I'm leaning towards telling her that I'm sleeping in my own bed.  Going to work on BIFF for the e-mails.  Going to talk to my lawyer in a bit in a sit down meeting.

Thanks in advance,

Gomez


ps -- BIFF -- from Splitting -- Brief, Informative, Friendly, Firm.  Rules for e-mails during a conflict with BPD/NPD.

[ForeverDad]

She doesn't hold herself to honoring her own statements, they vary from mood to mood.  So don't let her guilt you over anything you may or may not have said.  Sure, she'll try to make you feel crummy but that's par for the course.  Don't let her talk you into sabotaging yourself.  In other words, she can't demand that you leave.  Hmm, this may be Brinkmanship, your firm boundaries (the immovable wall) versus her entitled emotional demands (the irresistible force).

If she called the police, they came and she told them she wanted you out, what would happen?  They would just try to defuse the immediate incident.  You would have proof that you've been there all along.  If you can't make her leave the residence, then she can't make you leave the residence.

HOWEVER... .The officers may try to talk you into leaving just so the immediate incident, the domestic dispute, is resolved.  Sometimes it's is the policy to remove the person of the male gender just in case.  Not right, but it can happen, especially if she makes allegations.  Has she ever threatened or contemplated making allegations of DV or similar abuse?  Your risk is higher if she has done so.

I recall my final months living with my then-spouse.  It was rough, it was tense, I never could predict when she would rant and rage.  But at least I had enough presence of mind to have voice recorders with me.  Technically I could claim I was recording myself, not her in case you're concerned about recording laws, to prove that I wasn't the one misbehaving.  And yes, I needed it more than once.  Actually, it was used for the incident where I called the police.  The officers who responded didn't listen to my recording but one of them did ask me to hand off my preschooler and 'step away'.  Was I going to be carted off?  I never found out, my son shrieked and clung tighter to me.  The officer stared at me for a long moment then said "work it out" and they left.  When I afterward filed a police report about the incident, with the recording as evidence, she was the one arrested, triggering the separation.  Without the recording I doubt my statements alone would have been credible enough.

I'm not saying the police will get involved.  But if she is determined enough to force you out, she can make allegations, frame you for abuse or just claim to the judge that she is 'fearful' of you.  For that reason be very sure you don't do or say anything whatsoever that she could twist and distort into you being aggressive.  And be able to prove it.

[gomez_addams]

Thanks, bud.

I'm in the L's waiting room. Will have a better grasp on the game plan in the next hour.

Gomez

[gomez_addams]

Sat down with the L today.

Found out that it would be really super if she didn't come back... .and that legally, I might end up in a bind if she pulls some nonsense like, "I'm not leaving."

Well... .that sucks.

Anyway, here's to hoping I can buy her out quickly and get her out of here without losing my sanity.

Gomez

[livednlearned]

It makes me nervous that she is coming back this entitled, and that you could put yourself in a legal bind if she refuses to leave. Women who have BPD do tend to engage in legal abuse more than men with BPD. That often means false allegations of DV.

You may want to find out if you live in a mandatory arrest state, or a dual-arrest state. In some states, police make mandatory arrests of the person who seems to present the greatest threat. This is often the man. In other states, police arrest both parties. It's good to know which one you live in just in case.

In general, when police arrive to a DV call, then run through a decision-tree about who to arrest. One item on that decision-tree is to protect the person who made the call. So if she even makes a hint of a threat, be the first to call the police.

If she doesn't want you in the home and can't make you leave, and you have strong boundaries, she will likely try some alternate way to get rid of you. Be prepared for that.

If you do find yourself in a DV situation, you may want to have a criminal lawyer's name/number on you.   

[GaGrl]

Can you drive her straight from the airport to a long-term residency hotel (like Residence Inn, comfortable, with  a kitchenette)?  Reserve and check in prior to picking her up, then take her there and tell her this is the best situation under the circumstances.

[ForeverDad]

Wow, can you just move out now?  Is the lease or billing in your name only or both names?  If it's month to month, you can end it.  There is a potential risk though that court might order you to continue paying the rent for her during the divorce.  That's why you want to have the least exposure possible.

And yes, members here, good guys and good gals that we are, have been arrested without any real cause except to defuse the immediate incident.  Their logic as emergency responders is to let other professionals and the courts figure it out later.  For us an arrest is the End of the World, for them it's just another day on the job.

I'll never be sure, but I think I almost got arrested.  I called 911, two police vehicles came, one a canine unit, and they spoke to us both.  (Ex later said they told her about DV resources, something they didn't do with me.) Though I was the caller, I was the one asked to step away.  However, my preschooler was sobbing and clinging to me and the officer was stymied.  Finally he said, "work it out" and they left.  After I got a divorce lawyer I was told their policy is to always arrest someone when they are sent on a domestic dispute call.  My son's natural reactions saved me that day!

Your risk is that you will have extended private time with her, no witnesses of her poor behaviors and no witnesses of your proper behaviors.  Ponder how you will handle that.  I probably mentioned this already, but if she has contemplated or threatened to make allegations, then your risk is higher.

[gomez_addams]

Your risk is that you will have extended private time with her, no witnesses of her poor behaviors and no witnesses of your proper behaviors.  Ponder how you will handle that.  I probably mentioned this already, but if she has contemplated or threatened to make allegations, then your risk is higher.

Just spoke to my father-in-law.  He says that he's concerned for her safety.

I didn't tell him about the voice recorder.  I did tell him that any hints or threats or talk of hurting herself, hurting me, or me being dangerous will result in a call to 9-1-1 immediately. 

He claimed that she didn't put the safety bug in his ear, that it was just his concern because he doesn't know me well.  My concern is that the safety bug is in her ear now... .  Need to go get some batteries for that voice recorder and test it out.  Going to avoid being in the same room as much as possible.

Really considering getting myself a room in a hotel for a few nights.

Really, really frustrated.

Gomez

[livednlearned]

What prompted the conversation with him?

[gomez_addams]

What prompted the conversation with him?

He called.

She is staying with her parents right now.

Gomez

[livednlearned]

She has probably told her dad that you aren't safe, that she fears for her safety.

Be really careful, gomez. This is BPD we're talking about. There are a lot of men on this site, especially the legal board, who have been the target of false DV allegations.

The call from her dad may be a BPD warning signal that in her "feelings = facts" way of thinking, you are going to hurt her. It will take her one phone call to throw your world upside down.

[Panda39]

Just spoke to my father-in-law.  He says that he's concerned for her safety.

What prompted the conversation with him?

He called.

She is staying with her parents right now.

Gomez

Is he concerned that you are a threat to her safety?  Or that she is a threat to herself?  

If he is concerned that you will be abusive and are a threat to her she could be preparing to set you up.  If she's already got her dad thinking in these terms, she might be running a distortion campaign against you already so her family see her as a victim. It's possible she is softening them up to believe more.

If you can afford to move out and your landlord will let you out of your lease I would move.  How much time do you have left on your lease?  :)o you have a friend that would let you stay with them?  I would really try to figure out a way to not live in the same house if you have an option.

[gomez_addams]

Yeah, just got back from visiting the parish priest.  Expressed my concerns, especially about false allegations.

If I was smarter, I would have moved out a month ago and put her crap in storage.  I can get out of the lease, and I can move.  But that sets me up in a precarious position of having to "support" her.  I need her to leave on her own accord... .

I'll have a recorder going anytime the two of us are alone, and I'll limit that to the bare minimum.  She's requested that we meet with one of the other priests next weekend.  I'm wondering if it would be a good idea during that meeting to bring up that any/all discussions of violence (or heaven forbid any actually physical violence) will be handled with an immediate call to 9-1-1.  Or maybe that's a bad idea?   

Perhaps grabbing a furnished room for rent for a month would be a good idea... .but the problem is that I can't guarantee it will only be one month.  Once you start stretching the paycheck to cover two rents, things get dicey.

I have enough to get me through an emergency two weeks in a hotel.  I want to try to settle and file uncontested and get her out.  We've discussed this, and she claims to be in agreement.  However, if things aren't going smoothly then I'm almost assuredly out of the apartment and filing a contested divorce and letting a judge decide how to split it.  If she only realized how much better off financially she would be with a settlement -- how much I'd freaking pay to end this -- but she's so freaking unreasonable and irrational... .

The parish priest told me that she had accused him a while back of advising her to divorce me.  That was a huge relief, because someone I respect recognizes her break with reality. 

Perhaps doing our negotiations in the presence of the priest, if he were willing?  I know that's not his forte, and I'm not speaking strictly of the financial side of things... .but negotiating boundaries and such.  Who knows.  I feel like there is no correct answer.

Gomez

[livednlearned]

Maybe keeping a journal will provide you some protection. It's one of the things that Eddy recommends in his book, Splitting.

It might be a good idea to recreate the conversations you had with both your wife's dad, and with the parish priest.

She might not escalate to the point where she does anything -- the people on this board tend to be some of the more high-conflict divorces, and not all BPD divorces go that way. Still, she is BPD, and has extreme fear of abandonment, and she's on the tip of divorce, which is hard even for non-BPD marriages.

I would not have a conversation with her about calling 911. It's best to not give her any ideas. If it's any comfort, even people with BPD tend to be somewhat predictable. If she has not been violent with you in the past, she is less likely to start now. However, it's false allegations that are the concern here. If she has a history of making false allegations (like she did with the priest), then that is more likely the way things will go.

[Panda39]

I've been living with my wife since last October, when I discovered she was still having her affair.  She asked for a divorce, but stayed in our house with me and our two children, and she continued seeing her affair partner.  It got quite grim at times... .

On the positive side... .staying meant that our house is being sold, something that would have taken longer if I moved out.

On the negative side, she assaulted me more than once.  She subjected me to loads of abuse and threats.  She made false allegations about me to the police three times, and once to my employer.  I was interviewed by police in the police station on one occasion.  Nothing taken any further.She made death threats. She picked up a police caution for assaulting me.

I was advised to audio record everything... .that was useful  when I was interviewed by the Police.  I wish I had started earlie... . I started a couple of months in as things deteriorated. The false allegations spanned many months back... .thus my wish I had recorded earlier.  Someone advised me to keep receipts to prove where I had gone/been.  Again, good advice... .I relied on my bank statement to show I had paid for a meal, to refute an allegation that she made that I had threatened her mother... .In fact the weekend in question I took her and our kids to dinner at a restaurant .

Expect the worst.

We are still living together... .I'm aware more might come.

It's hard going... .Talk to friends and family to keep yourself going.  :)on't leave any paperwork around, mine stole legal papers.   Change your passwords on everything... .Mine hacked pc, phone, emails, memory stick, etc.

Back up all recordings.  Mine tried to delete mine.

Stay in touch with the BPD family.

I'm thinking of you.

Hi Gomez,

I agree with l&l play your cards close to the vest you do not want to tip you hand it's about protecting yourself.

I've posted one of SES's recent posts above so you can see how some tools have worked for him.  Everyone's story is different yet there are often similarities too. You might want to read SES's posts (if you are going to continue living with your stbx) he has been living with his stbx for several months.

Take care,

Panda39

[gomez_addams]

Thanks, guys.

I'm going to keep things close to the vest (radio silence), run the recorder when we're alone together (and limit that), and have a plan for moving out at the end of June.

I am hoping things can be wrapped up quickly... .But if I can't settle (she asks an amount I can't/won't do), I'll move out and cover only the expenses I'm mandated to cover. I dread this option as it will ruin me financially.

Sheesh.

Gomez

[maxen]

She is staying with her parents right now.

is she going to remain there?

[livednlearned]

Thanks, guys.

I'm going to keep things close to the vest (radio silence), run the recorder when we're alone together (and limit that), and have a plan for moving out at the end of June.

I am hoping things can be wrapped up quickly... .But if I can't settle (she asks an amount I can't/won't do), I'll move out and cover only the expenses I'm mandated to cover. I dread this option as it will ruin me financially.

Sheesh.

Gomez

Not all people with BPD are high-conflict personalities, which is what drives the highly litigious divorces. A person who is high-conflict has BPD, recruits negative advocates, is a persuasive blamer, and has a target of blame (you). This is how Eddy describes them. He also has three categories of high-conflict types. 1. Generally cooperative; 2. Not cooperative, not dangerous; 3. Not cooperative, dangerous.

The tricky thing about BPD divorces is that they can be extremely triggering. Most of us are not at our best when we file for divorce, and may do things to protect ourselves that are the right thing for us, but can be very dysregulating for someone with BPD. You're trying to find that sweet spot, and it's hard. I agree with authors like Gavin de Becker (who wrote the Gift of Fear) that past behavior is a great predictor of future behavior. So if your ex threatened you, recruited negative advocates, engaged in smear campaigns, etc., then you can expect the same will continue. If she was dangerous to your or herself, expect the same will continue. If she has been extremely entitled, expect the same to continue. Divorce does not typically trigger better behavior in people, whether you're BPD or not. If she does change, it's only to get you to call off the divorce. She may try to get pregnant, or exploit boundary weaknesses, or find other ways to stay negatively engaged. You know her best. What do you think (realistically, not hopefully) that she will do?

I do think that the validation skills recommended here can have a positive effect, because they can prevent things from getting worse. Just because the marriage is over does not mean validation is useless. If she is generally cooperative, using validation could help diffuse the conflict enough that she realizes she doesn't want the marriage to continue either.

Read everything you can about validation if you aren't familiar with it. We have a lot of good material here, and one of the best books on the topic is "I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better" by the Lundstroms. Even if it doesn't work with your ex (starting to learn validation at the point of divorce is a steep learning curve), it will bring so much positive effect to every other relationship in your life. The idea with your wife is that if she feels you hear her, she may be less likely to escalate.

It all depends on the degree of her BPD and how effectively you can apply the skills. By the time I divorced my ex (who was not cooperative and dangerous), there is no way validation would've worked. Not only because of his limitations, but because I was not strong enough to use the skills with him.

If your wife is generally cooperative, validation could be the skill that helps prevent financial ruin. 

[gomez_addams]

She is staying with her parents right now.

is she going to remain there?

She's coming back for the divorce. She wavers between "a few weeks" and "maybe we can live together after the divorce."

If we can't settle quickly (with a mediator) then I'm moving out and ceasing negotiations (within reason). If we can't settle, the judge can decide and I'll accept whatever is handed down. I'm not staying under the same roof if things are contentious.

Gomez

[gomez_addams]

Not all people with BPD are high-conflict personalities, which is what drives the highly litigious divorces. A person who is high-conflict has BPD, recruits negative advocates, is a persuasive blamer, and has a target of blame (you). This is how Eddy describes them. He also has three categories of high-conflict types. 1. Generally cooperative; 2. Not cooperative, not dangerous; 3. Not cooperative, dangerous.

Good advice.

I'm re-reading Splitting, and I'll check out the other books.

She's capable of making up stuff - claiming the priest advocates divorce, that I agreed to XY&Z, etc... .She's danced around violent imagery (I pray you die, I'll hit you if you do that), but nothing that gets me a TRO. I'll be prepared to evacuate if my gut tells me so. And the voice recorder will be running at all times when there's no third party present. I can minimize the alone time as much as possible. Moving out will take a few weeks financially.

I'm also going to try the mediation route with regard to a  settlement.  If that's not working, I'll score a furnished room for rent and hunker down. I'll be safe, still have a paycheck, and the stress will be manageable.

Gomez

[ForeverDad]

... .but nothing that gets me a TRO.

Beware of overconfidence, some of our ex-spouses have made allegations of being "fearful" and gotten at least temporary restraining/protection orders, forcing us, at least at first, into defensive modes rather than proactive.  As they say in the movies, Never Say Never.

[gomez_addams]

... .but nothing that gets me a TRO.

Beware of overconfidence, some of our ex-spouses have made allegations of being "fearful" and gotten at least temporary restraining/protection orders, forcing us, at least at first, into defensive modes rather than proactive.  As they say in the movies, Never Say Never.

Duly noted.

I'll be in a hotel in two hours.  She lands in three.

Gomez

[livednlearned]

... .but nothing that gets me a TRO.

Beware of overconfidence, some of our ex-spouses have made allegations of being "fearful" and gotten at least temporary restraining/protection orders, forcing us, at least at first, into defensive modes rather than proactive.  As they say in the movies, Never Say Never.

Duly noted.

I'll be in a hotel in two hours.  She lands in three.

Gomez

I'm really pulling for you gomez   

Keep coming back to center when you feel things throwing you off balance. My T had me focus on the breath coming in and out of my nose. Just a simple thing like that helped me get grounded when I feel the anxiety start to wind me up.

Hang in there.