Boundaries regarding repetition

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

I'm struggling when and how to end repetitious conversations.  Things that we discuss 2-3 times a week, even though the content of the discussion is a small part of our lives.

So for instance I married my uBPDw 4+ years ago, after the marriage she stresses over any activity I may engage in if there are other women present.

We play co-ed soccer together and one of the other husbands has an occasional poker game, we talked a few times about my playing some time. 

I have other hobbies, choral singing, bicycling, hiking... . some of these we do together, but I've told her countless times that I will not restrict myself to only participating if it is either 100% male, or she comes along.

I pick poker as my example because she has no interest in poker, actually thinks it's wrong (very fundamentalist Christian), but wants to learn it strictly so she can be there.

So for years we had the conversation 2-3 times a week.  It starts the same ("I don't like you playing poker if women are there", progresses through the same steps/examples until we reach the finally,  ("If you're going to have relationships with other women then I don't think I want to be married to you"... . "Well, that's your decision to make".  That example is of course best case... . if she prods me to engage then we go down the yelling path... .

The last 100+ times we've had the conversation nothing new has been said (in my mind anyway, she may latch onto something like "I never asked you what you would do if there were BBQ wings there... . "

So I've tried to set a boundary that we simply won't continually discuss it... . but "You can NEVER bring this up again" is certainly unreasonable.

I've only been invited 3 times in our 5 years together and played twice... . is it reasonable to say "we can discuss it next time I'm actually considering playing"?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[ziniztar]

So I've tried to set a boundary that we simply won't continually discuss it... . but "You can NEVER bring this up again" is certainly unreasonable.

I've only been invited 3 times in our 5 years together and played twice... . is it reasonable to say "we can discuss it next time I'm actually considering playing"?

From what I understand from boundaries is that they do not put the action (and responsibility) on the pwBPD/other, but within yourself. Otherwise it becomes a rule and rules equal control and control equals fear of abandonment (I am being controlled - what if I don't do what is asked - will he/she leave me?)

I think it's important to validate the fear or emotion that is behind the issue. So: validate the fact she is scared you will leave her when you meet other women. My dBPDbf can't be really happy for me when things go well in my career because he thinks I'd rather end up with a wall street type of guy (which he is absolutely not) and eventually I will find out what I'm missing and leave him. I've had this conversation a lot although I have to add he doesn't restrict me in doing anything.

The fear is real, her way of expressing it is just not very nice. So I'd say:

- validate the fear of abandonment

- set a boundary as to your freedom in doing your own activities and stick with it

Suggestions for validation...

"Are you afraid I will leave you when I spend time with other women?"

"I can see why you get scared when I spend time with other women."

"You seem afraid of me meeting other women."

"I feel for you because I want you to feel happy."

Boundary:

"I will not discuss poker again if you forbid me to go there. I value making my own choices. I will discuss this again with you if you can accept that."

Best of luck!  

[tired-of-it-all]

Hearing that you wife is concerned about an activity that has only happened twice in five years shows her obsessive behavior.  My BPDWife is similarly obsessive about whatever in going through her mind.  She will spend hours on the internet analyzing things to death.  Usually stuff that doesn't matter.

[waverider]

A lot of this is about the boundaries to prevent you slipping into JADE. My partner has a very strong OCD traits and very repetitive requests. Going over the same old thing time and time again is a big issue. If you allow yourself to fall into the pattern, it quickly breeds resentment and snappy responses, and you drift away from the important issue as you are trying to find alternative, or secondary reasons, to add weight. Complicating the whole thing.

I have noticed how therapists and good doctors have dealt with this. They seem to have a rule of saying things twice, then after that switching it around to getting the patient to interpret what they believe they were just told and what it meant. ":)o you remember what I said about XYZ? What did you interpret that as meaning? How do you believe what you are asking now differs from last time? What has changed?'

It's part of self soothing and self rescue techniques. same as teaching anyone anything, demonstrate the methods, then put the tools in their hands to practice with. Obsessive behavior will have you endlessly demonstrating without learning by participation, as they are constantly reinforcing you as the "can do" and themselves as the "can't do". You have to force the crossover into self help.

Its not that you ban discussions on an issue, you just can't allow it to be stuck on the same "please explain" footing.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

I have noticed how therapists and good doctors have dealt with this. They seem to have a rule of saying things twice, then after that switching it around to getting the patient to interpret what they believe they were just told and what it meant. ":)o you remember what I said about XYZ? What did you interpret that as meaning? How do you believe what you are asking now differs from last time? What has changed?'

... .

Its not that you ban discussions on an issue, you just can't allow it to be stuck on the same "please explain" footing.

Interesting... . I've used the What has changed, but more for decisions we've made and then she wants to go back and rehash the entire situation over again (for pretty much anything, buying something major to what's for dinner)

I've fallen into the habit (prior to knowing about BPD) of simply accusing her of not listening the 100+ times we've already discussed it. She usually starts out by accusing me of something ("You just want to have a relationship with the women there" when I've simply said I'd like to play poker.

I'll see if asking her if she remembers & what she interpreted it as will be any better.

[Skip]

Boundaries define our values.  

My value is fidelity in a relationship - what I define as the boundary of infidelity/inappropriateness is sexual affair, emotional affair, or having a close private friend of the opposite sex - even on a computer with someone 1,000 miles away.  One-on-one meetings and business dinners with female clients, however,  is within my boundary of fidelity/appropriateness.    We all get this.  

What, however, does it mean if your partner defines fidelity differently?  Is her value and value boundaries less valid than yours?  Who is right?  Who is wrong?  What does that portend for each of you?

In this case, you and your wife have different boundaries on this value.  She has even gone so far as to be willing to learn to play the game with you rather than deny you  - which is trying to accommodate both your values on infidelity/inappropriateness - even compromising her gambling/sin boundary.

So this is really not about right and wrong.  My parents agree with her boundaries  fidelity/appropriateness. My brother agrees with yours.  I have one friend that agrees with your boundaries on gambling/sin. I have one friend that agrees with her boundaries on gambling/sin.

Given that this has been on going conversation for an event that has only occurred twice in five years is a clue that this conflicting values/boundaries discussion.

In looking at it this way, might you approach this differently?

IsItHerOrIsItMe? Always a good question.  

[waverider]

Even asking and listening without countering is more validating than simply blocking and laying down your reality.

Its in part learning to accept everyone's reality is different and we can't always agree, or convince another of our version. Trying convert others around to our way is a major failing of most people.

In effect how do you agree to disagree without triggering major conflict? Not easy, granted. Blocking and denying another's, especially a pwBPD just adds fuel to the obsessive pursuing or the subject.

There have been issues were I have decided this is going to be my "thing" and i have just done them regardless of the fallout. That fallout at times was extreme. These issues were important to me to weather that. Allowing my partner to talk as much as she liked about it, but without getting into argument about it smoothed the passage. Avoiding conflict altogether was impossible.

At the end of the day consistency and honesty wins the day. The bottom line reason here is simply that you want your occasional "me" time without it being dependent on what she wants. Make sure you use that reason and not try to work around it using a variety of other reasons, which will all sound shady.

Best of luck, it is not easy carving out your own slice of independence.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

Given that this has been on going conversation for an event that has only occurred twice in five years is a clue that this conflicting values/boundaries discussion.

In looking at it this way, might you approach this differently?

I used the poker example for a number of reasons, partly because of the infrequency of the actual activity.  But it applies to any activity.

We have the same argument about meeting her brother at the bar for a beer (women could approach our table... . we'd develop a relationship with the server... . ), my going to work out on the way home from work when she can't go... . (again potential relationships with other women), going out with the guys after choir (I sing in an all male group) because I know the server's name... .

Some of them occur regularly, others like poker have only happened < 5 times.

With something like working out I can at least restrict it to something that's real... . and not go down the paths of all the what-ifs.

When I might or might not play poker again in a year to me 100% of the conversation is about the what-ifs... . so if we start the conversation we're already starting down the rabbit hole.  There's no good place in between "I don't like you playing" to "But someone might get confused that you're not playing strip poker and take her top off".

[Skip]

Why does she feel this way?

[waverider]

These conflicts are all symptoms of deeper issues, and can't be resolved by addressing the individual issues. You will need to find out what is driving this core fear. She cant control that fear regardless of the logic.

Does she attend any kind of therapy to discover what is driving these fears.

You are right you can't allow her fears to make her your jailer. Though things are much easier to manage if you know the core issue behind it. You cant soothe these fears by the logic of the moment, that just becomes invalidating. She is screaming "you dont understand", and you dont, but neither does she, she is just experiencing it.

What does she want? She does'nt know, she just wants the fear to go away and her only way of dealing with it is to fight against visible potential threats rather than understanding why they are threats.

We all feel this way at times, but add in BPD thinking and the projection of blame means that the problem is not acknowledged as within, but has to be external. The fear has to be caused by you and your actions. A form of projection, and you need to be empathetic whilst not picking up the baggage and hence continuing this defective way of coping.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

She was in her early forties when she lost her husband to cancer.  According to her brother she was not like this with her first husband, but shuttling 4 kids to their various activities didn't leave much time for their own activities.

She found out he had 1000's of paperback books and other collectables in his office at work.  He also had 4x that amount stashed in the basement that she knew about, but while she didn't like it, she knew about those.  His mother ended up paying off a credit card he had taken out and never told her about.

We talked a bit while in counseling about me paying for the sins of her father and first husband... . but it didn't 'take' with her.  She will very occasionally say she's still angry with him, but has never come close to understanding that accusing me of having a 'secret life' may have anything to do with her first husband's actions.

[Skip]

OK.  So her trust issues and fears are not without a reason.

And while you didn't cause them, you are triggering them.

In a way its like a soldier with PTSD - the automobile backfire didn't harm him, but it triggers great inner fears that harm him.

Saying "get over it" or "keep it to yourself" or "fix yourself" isn't going to make this go away. These phrases will make it worse.

I'm not suggesting that you let her put a leash on you - but hearing her (rather than blocking her) and trying to work with her might make both your lives better.

If you read a book about recovering from infidelity (a huge trust violation), they discuss many ways to rebuild trust.  There are two roles in this, your's and hers.  Of course the adulterer has the bigger role.

They talk about letting the other read your email, calling when your late, staying in close touch when traveling.  Slowly building the trust to a point where this type of thing is not needed anymore.

I sense that you are offended by her lack of trust.  I would be too.  You didn't cause this.  It's offensive.

Until you understand it.

The question is, do you care enough to help her out and are you strong enough to do it without being wounded by it?

You don't need to be jailed or leashed to do this.