Why do they devalue after love?

[Caredverymuch]

I think about this often.  I know the disorder.  Im getting it.  But, what exactly happens in their minds to throw the switch from an incredibly loving experience together with absolutely nothing bad occurring.  Hence, the full opposite.  Loving warmth laughter sharing joy and all things so good.   Then the next day they literally devalue you, hard.  And want nothing to do with you. 

I get the fear of intimacy.  But what happens in that brain in that exact moment? They are holding you so close and that connection is palpable.  You all have felt it. They feel it too.  Mine even use to say " can you feel this?" with such love.  Sometimes even a year.  Then... .Wow.  Horrific.  And so deliberate.

[BuildingFromScratch]

They've never really trusted anything their entire lives. Also, they placate and pretend so much that they probably resent having to keep up the act. I remember mine actually tried to tell me she had BPD, that her relationships always turn bad. That what we had at the beginning isn't what love is and such. I think she was actually somehow trying to get through to me that it was a lie, but she never had the heart to admit it and I sure as hell couldn't admit it until the end of the relationship.

Anyways, I think since they feel emotionally enslaved to people, especially their partners, the more close they are to people, the more enslaved they are. Mine only had sex with me to please me. And even attacked me for gushing about how beautiful she was. Was really verbally cruel to me over that, so confusing. I think most of the time they don't understand themselves much at all. Mine said at the end of the relationship "I think I'm subconsciously sabotaging myself". Indicating that she honestly doesn't know why she does stuff.

[goldylamont]

I can think of two reasons to devalue. Initially I think it's them assuming you will betray and abandon them, so they begin to hate you, thinking that you are making them feel this way. Later the devaluing is misdirected punishment, where you are receiving the anger and hate they have for whomever abused them (or they perceive to have abused them) in the past. Also though, I think the previous poster's point that they begin to despise having to act like they care when they don't feel anything can be part of the cause.

[BorisAcusio]

This is a summary of Otto Kernberg's view on devaluation:

OMNIPOTENCE AND DEVALUATION

also closely linked to splitting. shows defensive use of self and other images. may be a shift between “the need to establish a demanding, clinging relationship to an idealized ‘magic’ object at some times, and fantasies and behavior betraying a deep feeling of magical omnipotence of their own at other times.” both states represent their identification with an “all good” object, idealized and powerful, as a protection against bad “persecutory” objects. There is no “dependency” in the sense of love for the ideal object and concern for it. On a deeper level the idealized person is treated ruthlessly, possessively, as an extension of the patient himself.” even when apparent submission to an idealized external object, deep underlying omnipotent fantasies there. “The need to control the idealized objects, to use them in attempts to manipulate and exploit the environment and to ‘destroy potential enemies’ is linked with inordinate pride in the ‘possession’ of these perfect objects totally dedicated to the patient.” underneath, insecurity, self-criticism, and inferiority….often there are grandiose and omnipotent trends as compensation. often an unconscious conviction that they are special, and to have privileges. if object can’t provide more gratification or protection it is dropped and dismissed, because there was no real capacity for love of this object anyway. tendency to devaluate objects influenced by other things…1) revengeful destruction of object that frustrated the patient’s needs (esp. oral), 2) defensive devaluation of objects so that they can be seen as “persecutors.” “The devaluation of significant objects of the patient’s past has serious detrimental effects on the internalized object relations, and especially on the structures involved in superego formation and integration.”

The whole idealization stage was only an act of "buying protection out of weakness" as the respectable member 2010 once put it.

[Caredverymuch]

I can think of two reasons to devalue. Initially I think it's them assuming you will betray and abandon them, so they begin to hate you, thinking that you are making them feel this way. Later the devaluing is misdirected punishment, where you are receiving the anger and hate they have for whomever abused them (or they perceive to have abused them) in the past. Also though, I think the previous poster's point that they begin to despise having to act like they care when they don't feel anything can be part of the cause.

Do you believe the switch turn is automatic or with conscience thought?

[goldylamont]

I can think of two reasons to devalue. Initially I think it's them assuming you will betray and abandon them, so they begin to hate you, thinking that you are making them feel this way. Later the devaluing is misdirected punishment, where you are receiving the anger and hate they have for whomever abused them (or they perceive to have abused them) in the past. Also though, I think the previous poster's point that they begin to despise having to act like they care when they don't feel anything can be part of the cause.

Do you believe the switch turn is automatic or with conscience thought?

I would think it's conscious but uncontrollable. This would depend on age/maturity/awareness though. I tend to feel pwBPD are more conscious than they admit, at least by the time their in their late 20s or so... .depends on the person.

[Emelie Emelie]

I've read devaluing is also part of their fear of abandonment.  They are sure they are going to lose you so they begin to preemptively devalue you in their mind... .you don't matter, you're not important, you're bad. 

[Caredverymuch]

I can think of two reasons to devalue. Initially I think it's them assuming you will betray and abandon them, so they begin to hate you, thinking that you are making them feel this way. Later the devaluing is misdirected punishment, where you are receiving the anger and hate they have for whomever abused them (or they perceive to have abused them) in the past. Also though, I think the previous poster's point that they begin to despise having to act like they care when they don't feel anything can be part of the cause.

Do you believe the switch turn is automatic or with conscience thought?

I would think it's conscious but uncontrollable. This would depend on age/maturity/awareness though. I tend to feel pwBPD are more conscious than they admit, at least by the time their in their late 20s or so... .depends on the person.

This is interesting and thank you for sharing.  It helps to understand the objectification too.  Sadly, people are objects it seems. That supply need. Perhaps why there is zero empathy for how we disposed of.

[Caredverymuch]

I've read devaluing is also part of their fear of abandonment.  They are sure they are going to lose you so they begin to preemptively devalue you in their mind... .you don't matter, you're not important, you're bad. 

Thank you Emilie.  Its so sad. The whole thing.

[Caredverymuch]

This is a summary of Otto Kernberg's view on devaluation:

OMNIPOTENCE AND DEVALUATION

also closely linked to splitting. shows defensive use of self and other images. may be a shift between “the need to establish a demanding, clinging relationship to an idealized ‘magic’ object at some times, and fantasies and behavior betraying a deep feeling of magical omnipotence of their own at other times.” both states represent their identification with an “all good” object, idealized and powerful, as a protection against bad “persecutory” objects. There is no “dependency” in the sense of love for the ideal object and concern for it. On a deeper level the idealized person is treated ruthlessly, possessively, as an extension of the patient himself.” even when apparent submission to an idealized external object, deep underlying omnipotent fantasies there. “The need to control the idealized objects, to use them in attempts to manipulate and exploit the environment and to ‘destroy potential enemies’ is linked with inordinate pride in the ‘possession’ of these perfect objects totally dedicated to the patient.” underneath, insecurity, self-criticism, and inferiority….often there are grandiose and omnipotent trends as compensation. often an unconscious conviction that they are special, and to have privileges. if object can’t provide more gratification or protection it is dropped and dismissed, because there was no real capacity for love of this object anyway. tendency to devaluate objects influenced by other things…1) revengeful destruction of object that frustrated the patient’s needs (esp. oral), 2) defensive devaluation of objects so that they can be seen as “persecutors.” “The devaluation of significant objects of the patient’s past has serious detrimental effects on the internalized object relations, and especially on the structures involved in superego formation and integration.”

The whole idealization stage was only an act of "buying protection out of weakness" as the respectable member 2010 once put it.

Thank you Boris.  This is insightful. Its difficult to imagine they dont see these patterns.  They are so deeply rooted.

[myself]

Deep down, they don't love themselves.

We become their mirror. They hate what they see.

We remind them of their pain, which brings more pain.

We remind them of the better choices they're not making.

Plus, whoever loves them must have flaws and problems.

That's not acceptable. Everything must be perfect and go their way.

So they attack. Wound. Scapegoat. Run away. Discard.

Maybe it's a way to hurt themselves through us?

Self punishment. Self fulfilling prophecies. Poor impulse control.

[Caredverymuch]

Deep down, they don't love themselves.

We become their mirror. They hate what they see.

We remind them of their pain, which brings more pain.

We remind them of the better choices they're not making.

Plus, whoever loves them must have flaws and problems.

That's not acceptable. Everything must be perfect and go their way.

So they attack. Wound. Scapegoat. Run away. Discard.

Maybe it's a way to hurt themselves through us?

Self punishment. Self fulfilling prophecies. Poor impulse control.

Myself thank you for your insight.  The man I loved doesn't seem hurt by anything he did as described above. He acts aloof , arrogant, dismissive and full of himself now. He was childlike and gentle most of our r/s which I found endearing in a warm way. It seems the destruction he purposely caused to me strengthened him in some way.

[seeking balance]

I get the fear of intimacy.  But what happens in that brain in that exact moment? 

The Fear is of Abandonment - not intimacy.  Intimacy can be a trigger for the abandonment feeling, but it is the abandonment that causes the emotional response area in the brain to function at a much higher rate than you or I according to some CAT scans.

Emotions for pwBPD are intense, more intense than someone without it.  Linehan says it is like having an emotional 3rd degree sunburn all of the time.

Regarding is it conscious or unconscious - the answer is both.  Every pwBPD is different, some more mindful than others.  Think of it this way, you accidentally touch a hot stove - you move your hand.  Was that hand movement conscious or not?  Could you control it?

It hurts to have such an intense connection SEEMINGLY taken away over night.  I find when I look for rational explanations when I review the facts of the disorder and then the 10 False Beliefs that keep us stuck - https://bpdfamily.com/content/surviving-break-when-your-partner-has-borderline-personality

it helped me depersonalize, but still allowed me to grieve.

The destruction feels personal, but it is a disordered person acting in the world the only way they know how - it is not personal, it is mental illness.

[Caredverymuch]

I get the fear of intimacy.  But what happens in that brain in that exact moment? 

The Fear is of Abandonment - not intimacy.  Intimacy can be a trigger for the abandonment feeling, but it is the abandonment that causes the emotional response area in the brain to function at a much higher rate than you or I according to some CAT scans.

Emotions for pwBPD are intense, more intense than someone without it.  Linehan says it is like having an emotional 3rd degree sunburn all of the time.

Regarding is it conscious or unconscious - the answer is both.  Every pwBPD is different, some more mindful than others.  Think of it this way, you accidentally touch a hot stove - you move your hand.  Was that hand movement conscious or not?  Could you control it?

It hurts to have such an intense connection SEEMINGLY taken away over night.  I find when I look for rational explanations when I review the facts of the disorder and then the 10 False Beliefs that keep us stuck - https://bpdfamily.com/content/surviving-break-when-your-partner-has-borderline-personality

it helped me depersonalize, but still allowed me to grieve.

The destruction feels personal, but it is a disordered person acting in the world the only way they know how - it is not personal, it is mental illness.

Seeking thank you. Again you provide immense insight.  How did you get so wise?

I do understand it is a disorder. A mental illness.  But there was a person I valued greatly who acted so functional. So incredible. Such a great friend long before the r/s began.   A year later, I grieve the loss of the person. It is indeed  like a death. But worse, bc he is still before my eyes. My heart carries love for him and always will in full knowing the r/s was toxic and I do not want that type of r/s back.  I carry love.  He carries hate for me. For no reason and that breaks what is left of my heart every time I see him despite my immense growth in detaching since a year ago upon abandonment. .

[Hopeless777]

I've read devaluing is also part of their fear of abandonment.  They are sure they are going to lose you so they begin to preemptively devalue you in their mind... .you don't matter, you're not important, you're bad. 

How true. How true. My pwBPDw turned 50 and told me she only had a "few more good years left" and since I was going to leave her anyways I might as well go now. How's that for preemptive devaluation of her mate of 25+ years. Makes me sick to just think about how shallow and cruel she is. 

[martymcfly5]

... .They are sure they are going to lose you so they begin to preemptively devalue you in their mind... .you don't matter, you're not important, you're bad. 

The visual this conjures up for me: A small child's bedroom, with a toddler standing up in a day crib, crying it's little heart out... .waiting, hoping for mommy or daddy to come in - only for the parent to come into the room yelling "QUIT YOUR CRYIN' OR I'LL GIVE YA SOMETHING TO CRY ABOUT!---and leaves the room. " The toddler whimpers realizing it's best to be quiet than to cry... .tiny thought-seeds are planted -- "I don't matter, I'm not important, I am bad."

[goingtostopthis]

Its interesting because I remember seeing small signs beginning to mount up prior to the devaluing.

                                              I never felt that he faking being nice and loving to me. I actually felt that this was the real him.   It's when he split it was like he was having a personality shift into becoming someone else. Someone "MEAN"   ,  I mean really mean.   Its like he would become someone so unhappy with his own life that it became too much to blame it on himself, because he wouldnt be able to cope with hating himself that much. Its like they say, they all ways have to blame something or someone else for all their problems.

                                  What I think is bizarre is after he totally hurt me to the core and was so called done with me,  I know he went on for a bit of time most likely thinking that everything is going to go his way and be good, but the truth is,  his illness still remains. He'll find that getting rid of me isnt going to change anything. I was the only close friend he had.  Now he doesnt have me to talk to, and after what he did I dont know if Im willing to accept him back. Things have got to change and I told him I thought he might have BPD. I send him info. and videos on it.  I had to.  Ive had enough.  I cant take this kind of abuse anymore. and it is,  It's abuse.

                                                     This is just my opinion but I think they do love, after thee intial in loveness stage.  I felt that from mine,  that is why its such an intial shock when they turn on you out of no where.   Mine did it on chat,  Chat again!  I could just choke him for that.  Its seems to me he couldnt do this to my face.  I dont know why.  The answer I can come up with is that they devalue you out of their illness.

                                                                                                        They do it to make themselves feel better about themselves.   They feel "that" crappy inside.  Mine does it to feel in control of me. To make me feel helpless the way he feels,  and so when he s splits he gets a temporary high out of it. and some how equates his low to almost non self esteem problem to me.     He charges off thinking hes a big man now because he crapped all over me, and he does it in such a way that twist the truth so he feels fully justified. They all do this.  Why else are they so irrational?    They want to fight.  They dont a solution. They want that ending where everything is as awful on you as possible, Thats why it doesnt matter what you say.   If they cant have that,  that horrible ,horrible attack on you,  they arent going to get any relief.                                                  

[Caredverymuch]

Its interesting because I remember seeing small signs beginning to mount up prior to the devaluing.

                                               I never felt that he faking being nice and loving to me. I actually felt that this was the real him.   It's when he split it was like he was having a personality shift into becoming someone else. Someone "MEAN"   ,  I mean really mean.   Its like he would become someone so unhappy with his own life that it became too much to blame it on himself, because he wouldnt be able to cope with hating himself that much. Its like they say, they all ways have to blame something or someone else for all their problems.

                                   What I think is bizarre is after he totally hurt me to the core and was so called done with me,  I know he went on for a bit of time most likely thinking that everything is going to go his way and be good, but the truth is,  his illness still remains. He'll find that getting rid of me isnt going to change anything. I was the only close friend he had.  Now he doesnt have me to talk to, and after what he did I dont know if Im willing to accept him back. Things have got to change and I told him I thought he might have BPD. I send him info. and videos on it.  I had to.  Ive had enough.  I cant take this kind of abuse anymore. and it is,  It's abuse.

                                                      This is just my opinion but I think they do love, after thee intial in loveness stage.  I felt that from mine,  that is why its such an intial shock when they turn on you out of no where.   Mine did it on chat,  Chat again!  I could just choke him for that.  Its seems to me he couldnt do this to my face.  I dont know why.  The answer I can come up with is that they devalue you out of their illness.

                                                                                                         They do it to make themselves feel better about themselves.   They feel "that" crappy inside.  Mine does it to feel in control of me. To make me feel helpless the way he feels,  and so when he s splits he gets a temporary high out of it. and some how equates his low to almost non self esteem problem to me.     He charges off thinking hes a big man now because he crapped all over me, and he does it in such a way that twist the truth so he feels fully justified. They all do this.  Why else are they so irrational?    They want to fight.  They dont a solution. They want that ending where everything is as awful on you as possible, Thats why it doesnt matter what you say.   If they cant have that,  that horrible ,horrible attack on you,  they arent going to get any relief.                                                   

Thank you Going. You have wonderful insight.  I do also believe the loving side is real.  I believe that was/is the real person who always wanted to be secure and loved.  That is who I felt I knew. Although, for my full detachment I must remind myself both sides of the pBPD are indeed the hard truth.  And the negatives out weigh the positives in as far as the disrespect and devaluation for those of us on this side.

Yes, the meanness. Very cold and harsh  Out of nowhere. 

Yes, the twisting of the truth to justify the actions.  The brick wall built around that which is impossible to break down with logic and explanations of value and love. 

I too believe there never be anyone who genuinely cared the way I did.

Its shameful it is all now in a garbage heap somewhere in his mind and I do wonder where his mind goes when he feels sadness.   

BPD is just so horrific to understand.

[lost_my_heart]

Thank you, I have been to the point of going to the hospital myself because of the exact question. The look she gives is one of almost hatred now. When we tried again she was very distant and wouldn't even try. Which of course broke my heart again and finally it got to where she just started being emotionally abusive and destructive. Yet she still "loves me". That statement actually brings me pain now. Hard to trust again.

[lost_my_heart]

Going I'm so sorry that you went through the same feelings as I. Mine loves to blame everything on me and the outside world. She found new friends that spend their time drunk or high so she doesn't have to get any closer than arms reach. She actually used the excuse of trying to get back together so that I could get her pregnant. She told me this after we were together for a week while she was ovulating then she left. She came back six months later and was worried about being pregnant, me being the idiot told her that I would be here and I would have. As soon as she got her period it was on the attack again. These people don't see the damage they inflict on those who gave them their hearts. I ask myself constantly why was I not good enough. And honestly I am now afraid of women, big army combat vet and I'm afraid of women. I don't want to feel like this to be thrown away so easily like the flick of a switch.

[Caredverymuch]

Thank you, I have been to the point of going to the hospital myself because of the exact question. The look she gives is one of almost hatred now. When we tried again she was very distant and wouldn't even try. Which of course broke my heart again and finally it got to where she just started being emotionally abusive and destructive. Yet she still "loves me". That statement actually brings me pain now. Hard to trust again.

Dear lost myheart.  I am sorry for your pain which is one we here have known too well.  The process of d/d and eventual abandonment left me nearly to the point if not being able to function.  I still cant believe how destructive and traumatic it was to my heart and soul. 

What is truly sad as you alluded to is each time you " try again" they so very distant.  So difficult as we approach those reunions with such degree of missing and love and they approach with what feels like a very distant heart that is quick to want to leave again. 

I think I can truly say my heart suffered a true attack during my experiences with my expBPD. I had no knowledge of BPD then. 

I hope you continue to heal and thank you for sharing

[Conundrum]

The relationships they find most addicting, beyond the scope of rational impulse control, are with substances and/or those who possess vast emotional deficits (pathological). It draws upon the  perpetual abandonment cycle, which can best be played out by incorporating substances and people who are emotionally unavailable. Substances and the disturbed, are their perfect foil. They construct an emotionally unsound cocoon in which ordered relational mechanics are subsumed by pathology. It provides a dysfunctional stability and predictability that both soothes and validates their apocalyptic perceptions of self. Those relationships (despite the concomitant turmoil and chaos) are safe. They feel like home.

On the other hand, our relationships (with them) present the greater risk. Despite our relational issues (foo), both in theory and application (post idealization) we inevitably become active symbols representing relational order. A path forward. Eventually, unable to internalize the benefits of relational stability, they mount an offensive (either consciously or subconsciously) to destroy our boundaries. That destroying of boundaries (acting out), becomes indistinguishably entwined in the amorphous process of destroying the object causing their shame--the non. Devaluing, is a defense mechanism.

PwBPD similar to others require hope. The absence of hope results in depression. For example, how often do we witness on these boards, the statement "I will never feel that manner of intense love  again" etc. That implies an absence of hope, and causes depression. An unhealthy state to remain in, and extremely debilitating. Most of us here though eventually heal and arise from that state. Think how awful it would be if one could never overcome that, and who would you blame? What if blaming was the only tool available to you? A pwBPD does not possess the same ordered emotional toolbox as others. Still they neither suffer from a deficit of intelligence, nor lack the ability to perceive. When facing the facts, that one is incapable of ordered relational stability (controlling emotions and impulses, hence an ordered person will eventually leave), and as a defense against hopelessness/depression, adoption of a persecution complex, and projecting blame becomes the maladaptive coping tool of choice. With those who possess a greater sense of self-awareness and a concurrent commitment to evidence based therapies, other tools may be available.

For a non, post-committed-relationship, there is little point in shaming the pwBPD via demonstrations of suffering or anger. It furthers triggers them. These are not reciprocal relationships operating in a linear system. Ordered and disordered clash, and the synthesis (and fallout) cannot be defined within the DSM-V, or in any other scholarly tome. The anecdotes here come closest to truth.             

[Caredverymuch]

The relationships they find most addicting, beyond the scope of rational impulse control, are with substances and/or those who possess vast emotional deficits (pathological). It draws upon the  perpetual abandonment cycle, which can best be played out by incorporating substances and people who are emotionally unavailable. Substances and the disturbed, are their perfect foil. They construct an emotionally unsound cocoon in which ordered relational mechanics are subsumed by pathology. It provides a dysfunctional stability and predictability that both soothes and validates their apocalyptic perceptions of self. Those relationships (despite the concomitant turmoil and chaos) are safe. They feel like home.

On the other hand, our relationships (with them) present the greater risk. Despite our relational issues (foo), both in theory and application (post idealization) we inevitably become active symbols representing relational order. A path forward. Eventually, unable to internalize the benefits of relational stability, they mount an offensive (either consciously or subconsciously) to destroy our boundaries. That destroying of boundaries (acting out), becomes indistinguishably entwined in the amorphous process of destroying the object causing their shame--the non. Devaluing, is a defense mechanism.

PwBPD similar to others require hope. The absence of hope results in depression. For example, how often do we witness on these boards, the statement "I will never feel that manner of intense love  again" etc. That implies an absence of hope, and causes depression. An unhealthy state to remain in, and extremely debilitating. Most of us here though eventually heal and arise from that state. Think how awful it would be if one could never overcome that, and who would you blame? What if blaming was the only tool available to you? A pwBPD does not possess the same ordered emotional toolbox as others. Still they neither suffer from a deficit of intelligence, nor lack the ability to perceive. When facing the facts, that one is incapable of ordered relational stability (controlling emotions and impulses, hence an ordered person will eventually leave), and as a defense against hopelessness/depression, adoption of a persecution complex, and projecting blame becomes the maladaptive coping tool of choice. With those who possess a greater sense of self-awareness and a concurrent commitment to evidence based therapies, other tools may be available.

For a non, post-committed-relationship, there is little point in shaming the pwBPD via demonstrations of suffering or anger. It furthers triggers them. These are not reciprocal relationships operating in a linear system. Ordered and disordered clash, and the synthesis (and fallout) cannot be defined within the DSM-V, or in any other scholarly tome. The anecdotes here come closest to truth.             

Conundrum, this is incredibly well written and deeply reflective.  Thank you for taking the time to post this response.  I read it in acknowledgment and in sadness at the same time. Yes, this is exactly the reality. How very close they get to a better way.  How very close they get to relational growth.  Its right there in front of them.  And they throw it away. 

Thank you again. I plan to print this as it is so absolutely valid and appreciated .

[BacknthSaddle]

This is an excellent thread, and I think it makes clear the truth that the disorder is in fact much easier to understand than it is to accept.

[Caredverymuch]

This is an excellent thread, and I think it makes clear the truth that the disorder is in fact much easier to understand than it is to accept.

I fully agree with you, backinthesaddle.  Yes, the disorder is much easier to understand conceptually and intellectually.  Additionally, look at the collective statistics not measured but rather exoressed here. Ours stories. Our journies. Are the same.  The null hypothesis is valid, clearly.  This is a disordered person who repeats these patterns and we on this side, the recipients, need to continually remind ourselves of such. 

You know I truly believe there is nothing we could have done or not have done to change the outcome.  The unfortunate part is convincing the heart of that which the head more readily can accept.  My wish is that one day there will be much more exposure on this disorder.  So no one behind us has to endure that which we have. 

Thank you for your continual insight backin, i learn a great deal here.  Our healing is largely done alone after abandonment , discardment, and the resultant trauma.  Another very truly uniquely aspect of this disorder. The isolation that the pBPD imposes on you during the r/s ironically is how they also leave you.

[free-n-clear]

Conundrum, this is incredibly well written and deeply reflective. Thank you for taking the time to post this response. I read it in acknowledgment and in sadness at the same time. Yes, this is exactly the reality. How very close they get to a better way. How very close they get to relational growth. It's right there in front of them and they throw it away.

   Conundrum, I agree with Caredverymuch 100%. My uBPDxgf's previous partner (who I've known for years) is extremely narcissistic, misogynistic and generally negative about everything and everyone except himself, and they made a hate/hate r/s last ten years. I lasted just on two years, having done everything I could think of to improve her self-esteem. Your post goes along way towards explaining that. Thankyou.   

[BacknthSaddle]

The relationships they find most addicting, beyond the scope of rational impulse control, are with substances and/or those who possess vast emotional deficits (pathological). It draws upon the  perpetual abandonment cycle, which can best be played out by incorporating substances and people who are emotionally unavailable. Substances and the disturbed, are their perfect foil. They construct an emotionally unsound cocoon in which ordered relational mechanics are subsumed by pathology. It provides a dysfunctional stability and predictability that both soothes and validates their apocalyptic perceptions of self. Those relationships (despite the concomitant turmoil and chaos) are safe. They feel like home.

On the other hand, our relationships (with them) present the greater risk. Despite our relational issues (foo), both in theory and application (post idealization) we inevitably become active symbols representing relational order. A path forward. Eventually, unable to internalize the benefits of relational stability, they mount an offensive (either consciously or subconsciously) to destroy our boundaries. That destroying of boundaries (acting out), becomes indistinguishably entwined in the amorphous process of destroying the object causing their shame--the non. Devaluing, is a defense mechanism.

PwBPD similar to others require hope. The absence of hope results in depression. For example, how often do we witness on these boards, the statement "I will never feel that manner of intense love  again" etc. That implies an absence of hope, and causes depression. An unhealthy state to remain in, and extremely debilitating. Most of us here though eventually heal and arise from that state. Think how awful it would be if one could never overcome that, and who would you blame? What if blaming was the only tool available to you? A pwBPD does not possess the same ordered emotional toolbox as others. Still they neither suffer from a deficit of intelligence, nor lack the ability to perceive. When facing the facts, that one is incapable of ordered relational stability (controlling emotions and impulses, hence an ordered person will eventually leave), and as a defense against hopelessness/depression, adoption of a persecution complex, and projecting blame becomes the maladaptive coping tool of choice. With those who possess a greater sense of self-awareness and a concurrent commitment to evidence based therapies, other tools may be available.

For a non, post-committed-relationship, there is little point in shaming the pwBPD via demonstrations of suffering or anger. It furthers triggers them. These are not reciprocal relationships operating in a linear system. Ordered and disordered clash, and the synthesis (and fallout) cannot be defined within the DSM-V, or in any other scholarly tome. The anecdotes here come closest to truth.             

This is an excellent and insightful post, a complex and nuanced explanation of what the pwBPD in your life means when he/she says "I love drama."

Indeed emotional order is toxic for them, because in an emotionally ordered environment they are left with nothing to do but sit and wait for he inevitable abandonment. So they must devalue you in advance of this, or sabotage the r/a to precipitate the abandonment, or some similar strategy.

After my ex got divorced she said "I'll never get married again." When I asked why she said "I've cheated more times than you know, and I know I'll do it again." All of course efforts to self-soothe her abandonment anxiety, attempts to sabotage relationships, and so forth. Of course, she WILL get married again. She'll dissociate from all of it at some point and resume the cycle. But this was one of her most insightful moments.

Unfortunately during our r/s, I convinced myself that those insightful moments were the ones in which she was "not really herself."

[Caredverymuch]

The relationships they find most addicting, beyond the scope of rational impulse control, are with substances and/or those who possess vast emotional deficits (pathological). It draws upon the  perpetual abandonment cycle, which can best be played out by incorporating substances and people who are emotionally unavailable. Substances and the disturbed, are their perfect foil. They construct an emotionally unsound cocoon in which ordered relational mechanics are subsumed by pathology. It provides a dysfunctional stability and predictability that both soothes and validates their apocalyptic perceptions of self. Those relationships (despite the concomitant turmoil and chaos) are safe. They feel like home.

On the other hand, our relationships (with them) present the greater risk. Despite our relational issues (foo), both in theory and application (post idealization) we inevitably become active symbols representing relational order. A path forward. Eventually, unable to internalize the benefits of relational stability, they mount an offensive (either consciously or subconsciously) to destroy our boundaries. That destroying of boundaries (acting out), becomes indistinguishably entwined in the amorphous process of destroying the object causing their shame--the non. Devaluing, is a defense mechanism.

PwBPD similar to others require hope. The absence of hope results in depression. For example, how often do we witness on these boards, the statement "I will never feel that manner of intense love  again" etc. That implies an absence of hope, and causes depression. An unhealthy state to remain in, and extremely debilitating. Most of us here though eventually heal and arise from that state. Think how awful it would be if one could never overcome that, and who would you blame? What if blaming was the only tool available to you? A pwBPD does not possess the same ordered emotional toolbox as others. Still they neither suffer from a deficit of intelligence, nor lack the ability to perceive. When facing the facts, that one is incapable of ordered relational stability (controlling emotions and impulses, hence an ordered person will eventually leave), and as a defense against hopelessness/depression, adoption of a persecution complex, and projecting blame becomes the maladaptive coping tool of choice. With those who possess a greater sense of self-awareness and a concurrent commitment to evidence based therapies, other tools may be available.

For a non, post-committed-relationship, there is little point in shaming the pwBPD via demonstrations of suffering or anger. It furthers triggers them. These are not reciprocal relationships operating in a linear system. Ordered and disordered clash, and the synthesis (and fallout) cannot be defined within the DSM-V, or in any other scholarly tome. The anecdotes here come closest to truth.             

This is an excellent and insightful post, a complex and nuanced explanation of what the pwBPD in your life means when he/she says "I love drama."

Indeed emotional order is toxic for them, because in an emotionally ordered environment they are left with nothing to do but sit and wait for he inevitable abandonment. So they must devalue you in advance of this, or sabotage the r/a to precipitate the abandonment, or some similar strategy.

After my ex got divorced she said "I'll never get married again." When I asked why she said "I've cheated more times than you know, and I know I'll do it again." All of course efforts to self-soothe her abandonment anxiety, attempts to sabotage relationships, and so forth. Of course, she WILL get married again. She'll dissociate from all of it at some point and resume the cycle. But this was one of her most insightful moments.

Unfortunately during our r/s, I convinced myself that those insightful moments were the ones in which she was "not really herself."

More valued insight Backin and very appreciated. Is it really the notion of simple love and caring that triggers the horrible devaluations? Even with all I have acquired in learning about this disorder, that aspect just makes no sense. Its truly the total opposite reaction a logical person would have to being deeply loved.

[BacknthSaddle]

More valued insight Backin and very appreciated. Is it really the notion of simple love and caring that triggers the horrible devaluations? Even with all I have acquired in learning about this disorder, that aspect just makes no sense. Its truly the total opposite reaction a logical person would have to being deeply loved.

Caved: it makes plenty of sense.

The other day I was walking through a neighborhood park.  There was a woman on the swing with her 6-year-old, laughing and having a great time both of them.  I came back through twenty minutes later, and the woman was berating the girl; I actually heard her say "you ruined my life."  To a toddler. 

This is presumably this child's model of "love."  To a pwBPD, this is what love is: something that  can be beautiful but that you expect, you even know, can and will get horribly ugly at any random time.  You never know when the object of your "love," and the one who is supposed to meet your needs, could become completely withholding, abusive, what have you.  All you know it that it WILL happen.

And that's the model for the rest of your life.  For pwBPD, this idea that you and I have of "simple love and caring," of "being deeply loved:" it's not a real thing.  It's not a thing they experienced when they were learning how the world worked.  Their just waiting for the catastrophe, the abandonment, because that's what relationships ARE for them.  It's not an issue of "logic" so much as an issue of what they understand the world to be, how they learned about it. 

It is sad for them.  But our mistake is in thinking that, at this advanced, adult age, we can teach them about real love.  It's like the difference between trying to learn a language when you're 2 and trying to learn when you're 35.  If you don't learn early enough, you'll never be "fluent," no matter how good your teacher is. 

Our best bet is to seek out those who already speak our language. 

[Caredverymuch]

More valued insight Backin and very appreciated. Is it really the notion of simple love and caring that triggers the horrible devaluations? Even with all I have acquired in learning about this disorder, that aspect just makes no sense. Its truly the total opposite reaction a logical person would have to being deeply loved.

Caved: it makes plenty of sense.

The other day I was walking through a neighborhood park.  There was a woman on the swing with her 6-year-old, laughing and having a great time both of them.  I came back through twenty minutes later, and the woman was berating the girl; I actually heard her say "you ruined my life."  To a toddler. 

This is presumably this child's model of "love."  To a pwBPD, this is what love is: something that  can be beautiful but that you expect, you even know, can and will get horribly ugly at any random time.  You never know when the object of your "love," and the one who is supposed to meet your needs, could become completely withholding, abusive, what have you.  All you know it that it WILL happen.

And that's the model for the rest of your life.  For pwBPD, this idea that you and I have of "simple love and caring," of "being deeply loved:" it's not a real thing.  It's not a thing they experienced when they were learning how the world worked.  Their just waiting for the catastrophe, the abandonment, because that's what relationships ARE for them.  It's not an issue of "logic" so much as an issue of what they understand the world to be, how they learned about it. 

It is sad for them.  But our mistake is in thinking that, at this advanced, adult age, we can teach them about real love.  It's like the difference between trying to learn a language when you're 2 and trying to learn when you're 35.  If you don't learn early enough, you'll never be "fluent," no matter how good your teacher is. 

Our best bet is to seek out those who already speak our language. 

Backin, you have insanely (pardon the pun) solid insight and I appreciate the intensely excellent sharing as such on this thread.  This as with so much else makes intellectual sense in more knowing of the disorder. Thank you. You seem to be in  a place of really self protective detachment for which you should be quite proud and caring of yourself. I am happy for you!

Yes, you are once again correct.  This is all they seem to have known. In fact, I can recall the many, many times my expBPD would cry for no reason, saying as I held him and loved him through my touch that he knew he would lose me. That he knew I would move on and tire of him. He would actually also say these things in the midst of mild devaluations that then became subsequently horrifically cold, hurtful, and intentionally mean actions toward me as well.  Out of no where. I am now understanding he was indeed telling me who he was and all he ever knew or believed.

This was bewildering to me because there was just this warm wonderful love going on. Safe. In fact, I would ask him while rubbing his heart why he would say such a thing.  That I loved him fully, just the way he was, I loved only that man and that I was not going anywhere. Ever.  He was home.

He would respond that was all he ever knew of love. And I would respond that was wrong. That he knew very assuredly what genuine and unwavering love was. With me. That I was here now. That I loved him with all that I was and that I would never leave him.  And I would not have. 

Sadly, this is where I guess I went wrong.  Difficult to say this was wrong as it was absolutely how I felt. There was nothing wrong in being that openly committed to this man I indeed loved with all of my heart.  You see, I speak the language of love. And I thought that very real love would win. How could it not? I thought he would have the aha moment he always claimed he desired. That the unconditional love he claimed he always yearned for was here. I was here and I was there to stay.

My heart was left unprotected for all that came thereafter. 

Thank you again for your deep insight Backin on this topic and so much more.  Your own painful journey has not been in vain my friend.  You are paying foreword your growth. Your goodness. Your fluency in the language we well know. And this group of people will not reject that gift.

[Ironmanrises]

A pwBPD has been devaluing the non long before the actual full blown devaluation/discard takes place. This occurs due to perceived abandonment(whether real or not) that the pwBPD fears so much that the increase intimacy of a relationship with a non will inevitably trigger devaluation, first in small slights here and there(followed by loving comments to keep the non off balance and attached) to the full geyser barrage of devaluation, often followed by discard. This is what I experienced with my UpwBPDgf who did this to me twice.