Parent issues

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Recently. my therapist (versed in BPD) suggested that my dad sounds like he has Aspergers based on my description. This is not the first time I have heard someone say this about my dad. I realize a diagnosis can’t be made in this way, but we can look at the traits.

As I seem to be on an interesting unasked-for inward  journey post BPD breakup, this clue or suggestion I would like to explore more. Tangentially related to the main focus of this page, I am curious if anyone has any experience with this or resources to suggest? It looks like, oddly, there is not too much on the topic.

While I get that BPD and ASD are very different, my therapist did suggest  that there could be some similarities (and some very clear differences). For instance, the detached element and (perhaps depending on individual?) splitting/black and white thinking and anger/outbursts. I’m just learning now how the behaviours are described and categorized.

While it’s always been my mom I have focused on more (bipolar 2), looking to these traits of my dad  feels potent in some way - that it could be quite illuminating for me.

[forevermagenta]

Recently. my therapist (versed in BPD) suggested that my dad sounds like he has Aspergers based on my description. This is not the first time I have heard someone say this about my dad. I realize a diagnosis can’t be made in this way, but we can look at the traits.

As I seem to be on an interesting unasked-for inward  journey post BPD breakup, this clue or suggestion I would like to explore more. Tangentially related to the main focus of this page, I am curious if anyone has any experience with this or resources to suggest? It looks like, oddly, there is not too much on the topic.

While I get that BPD and ASD are very different, my therapist did suggest  that there could be some similarities (and some very clear differences). For instance, the detached element and (perhaps depending on individual?) splitting/black and white thinking and anger/outbursts. I’m just learning now how the behaviours are described and categorized.

While it’s always been my mom I have focused on more (bipolar 2), looking to these traits of my dad  feels potent in some way - that it could be quite illuminating for me.

[khibomsis]

forevermagenta, journeys can be rewarding though arduous.
Bearing in mind that these observations could just be the product of my extremely poor taste in partners (driven by repetition compulsion), I can share my experience of being married to an Asperger's and then in a relationship with a pwBPD. Which is that there is a whole world of difference between the absence of empathy of the Aspergers, and BPD which is almost non-stop drama.  I found the Asperger's to be quite chilling, but part of the story is that she lied about it. Took me years to figure it out because an absence is not something one looks for, if you know what I mean. She was the perfect partner 90% of the time, but of course affection and intimacy is the reason why one gets married. Only with the divorce did I discover an abyss of violence I had not suspected was there, but I guess that may have been partly situational.
Also the Asperger tended to have no friends and no social life, and was quite OCD about time, whereas BPD the opposite.  
Similarities, well they both were capable of large lies. Both were  jealous of  attention I gave to friends and family, although the Asperger more extreme. Both very possessive. Indeed lots of black/white thinking and prone to judge.
I recall websites for spouses of Asperger's which I found when going through divorce. I am sure there must be similar ones for their children.
Of the two, the pwBPD is still a sweetheart when not raging, whereas Asperger is consistent. 24/7 they do not have empathy, it is a register they just do not seem to possess. IMHO much more abusive in the long run.
Lastly, I remain curious why the Asperger chose me. I think she might have been happy with somebody equally unempathetic. Meaning I suspect that two Asperger's could probably sustain a relationship whereas two pwBPD never could. 
  

[forevermagenta]

Yes, I’m just learning about Aspergers, so can’t really speak to or ask pointed questions about your love match query. It is interesting to wonder about matches- for instance, my mom was able to become quite ill many times and my dad was blamed for not picking up on the cues of psychosis - but, now, perhaps I see it was outside of his framework.

There are A LOT of group and sites for partners of and parents of Aspergers folks, but I have found nothing (aside from one dated webpage) that talks about the child’s experience. Seems like a gap- potentially.

That sounds like quite the comparative experience you had. Some similarities I have noticed are: long lectures on their scientific subject of speciality (almost zoning out, as if I wasn’t there). Anger/outbursts. And hypersensitivity. While my ex w BPD could be quite charismatic and well-liked, he was generally a loner and felt isolated - whereas my dad (showing sspergers traits) was quite content on his own- relationships were not on his radar as something of value or to maintain. They also both can have quite rigid/black and white thinking. Of course, the idealization/praise is completely absent from my dad - even eye contact was too intense.

I have my ex w BPD to thank in a way that I am even considering this. It was our breakup that pushed me to therapy (to understand the aftermath) and it was therapy that shed this new perspective. I honestly thought all my childhood trauma and understanding could go deeper in the sameness of the pain, but this flips the framework entirely. I recall a 2010 post saying something along the lines of a relationship w a pwBPD can propel growth not experienced thus far in someone’s life (or something along those lines). Certainly, I am realizing my issues aren’t “case closed” as previously thought.

[khibomsis]

forevermagenta, that experience was dearly bought. I need the emoji that laughs and cries at the same time.
I am sorry to hear there is nothing for children of Asperger's . We are here for you and will listen. I guess my question would be how did you develop an emotional repertoire? When the two examples before you were lacking empathy in different ways?
Indeed both my Asperger's ex and my expwBPD were locked in rigid black/white thinking.
You are absolutely right in your line of enquiry. Repetition compulsion is a thing. Can get pretty complicated when we have a fruit salad of disorders in our FOO Mine was the classic combo uNBPD mom/co-dependent dad. Complicated story.  Maybe we do need the story retold in our lives, many, many times before we can make sense of it, and so we recreate the circumstances in which they occur. The inner child needs her story told.
It is the gift of BPD. Simply in order to survive, we end up doing the work of understanding ourselves with the help of therapy. We do, so many of us, come out of it better people, more understanding of ourselves and more compassionate towards pain. Out of darkness comes the light. Trust in the unknown. It cannot possibly be worse then what we have already been through.
I am sure I need not remind you to be extra kind to yourself during this time. Buy the child an icecream   Since we can't hug ourselves, here's one for you  

[forevermagenta]

Trust in the unknown is an interesting incentive. Almost like a leap of faith that is necessary when recovering. I don’t feel that far gone - in fact, the Aspergers/high functioning autism theory for my dad is quite the relief. It all is making sense. I didn’t even know sense was missing or possible. Like an inner paradigm shift.

Last night, I was reading about the differences between cognitive and emotional empathy. My dad appears to have no cognitive empathy (perspective taking of another person), but appears to have high emotional empathy (felt concern for others etc.). I’m not sure how I knew he had emotional empathy - it is just a felt sense I had - that he had a lot of feeling (bursting under the surface), but no verbal tools to express this. This distinction is apparently common in people with high functioning autism (previously known as Aspergers). So, while he would never ask “how are you?” I sensed his concern in ways that I can’t quite name.

A fierce sense of justice and fairness was also demonstrated throughout my life by him which also gave me understanding for the underdog, perhaps. My mom, while bipolar (bipolar 1 - I got them mixed up earlier- the one more extreme with delusions!) would have periods of relative stability. And my brother (schizophrenic) didn’t have his onset til around 20 and he was a dear friend and confidante until then, but is now selectively mute as well as has schizophrenia.

An old friend of the family says I am a miracle given the unusual circumstances of my family and how relatively stable and together I am now and generally have been. If I could see back in time or had reliable witnesses perhaps I would have clues as to how I got what I needed. I do feel grateful, but also very alone in my experience.

[once removed]

i guess the first thing i would wonder: did you feel invalidated, and/or unheard growing up, or feel that way now, about growing up?

[forevermagenta]

That’s an interesting question. Possibly not - or, at least, they aren’t dominating themes. Shame, confusion and FOG are.

With my mom, I am not sure if I have ever looked for feeling heard. I think I understood from a young age her instability and so I operated more from a personal responsibility perspective. When psychotic, it wasn’t directed at me. She would be delusional about very random things -like lying on the floor concinced and pointing at a bag that she felt needed to be burned etc. (And various suicide attempts and threats over the years). But, she didn’t necessarily invalidate me (until a teenager and I moved out at age 13 to live with my dad) and I didn’t go to her to be “heard”- that would be futile as she was quite irrational and seemed to lack comprehension. I am always careful how much I share with her and how as it is a wildcard how it might be interpreted (often through a lens of paranoia). So, actually, yes, being unheard (and having my thoughts twisted) is I suppose something I dealt with- but also adapted to/self-protected through not sharing.

In some ways, I felt very validated and heard by dad - I see now he was operating from a possibly a hyper-logical stance. If my concerns made sense, he would listen. The kinds of concerns I would approach him with would be largely philosophical, existential or fairness/justice (these topics preoccupied me as a teenager). This all made sense and I likely felt more heard than most of my peers in this matter (my dad is highly intelligent and very well read). But, when it came to any sort of personal guidance or boundaries or input or even meals or whether or not to come home for the night or personal healthcare, I was on my own.

Interesting, direct question. Thank you.

[khibomsis]

forevermagenta, you sound enormously balanced and at peace after your rough childhood. We all have different starting points and you have come very far.  I am terribly sorry to hear about your brother. Maybe he will come right with time...

I think possibly it is easier to be the child of an Aspergers than a spouse. Maybe that is why there are no sites for children of Aspergers? This because a child can have many sources of empathy and affection whereas it is difficult for a spouse to seek it outside the marriage. Who hugged you, fm, when you were little?

My expwAsp also had a huge social justice commitment, that was one of the things that attracted me to her in the beginning. I learnt so much from her. Had we stayed friends instead of dating  am sure it would have worked out. Her problem was affection, it did not come naturally and eventually I figured it was a learned response. It was not something she felt, instead it was something she understood should be done during marriage.  I started leaving Post-it notes on the bed saying "hug me". It was somewhere about then I realized it was not going to last.

Zero cognitive empathy. I often think this about my uNBPD mom as well, she was a great teacher but sometimes a girl needed a mother. For all those girl things.

Like you say we came right anyway. And will come righter yet
   

[forevermagenta]

Yes, I can imagine having a partner with high functioning ASD (at least my newfound understanding and potentially lifelong experience of) to be challenging with regards to physical contact and affection. These were things that were completely absent for me and that is my normal. I think one major effect of having a parent (and primary parent, I will add) is having very unusual norms. Yes, your comment of “all those girl things” is something I had zero of.

This was the main article I could find with regards to support for kids with parents on the spectrum: www.aspergerpartner.com/children-of-a-parent-with-asd-aspergers-syndrome-2.html#comments

As mentioned in the articles comments, it seems like there aren’t many (any?) discussion groups/forums yet distressing experiences are shared. I even reactivated my Facebook to see about that group mentioned and it couldn’t be found.

[Turkish]

You could join us on the Parent, Sibling or In-law board    

I was once (ha) frustrated with my ex and said, "thank you Miss Asperger's!" She got a faraway look and said, "sometimes I think so," and I felt badly. ASD can manifest differently in women, as in "masking." She's only diagnosed with anxiety and depression. Our son has ASD1, but he's a pretty sweet kid. A little quirky, naive and sensitive, yet not given to anger.

We have a lot of material in the Library here such as this:

COMPARISON: Aspergers/autism spectrum disorder vs BPD

[khibomsis]

forevermagenta, I am sorry you never were hugged. How do you feel about it?
I read the article, the comments were heartbreaking. Somewhat comforting to know that others suffered as well with an AS partner, it took me years it figure out it was abusive. Like one of the commenters, I spent years in therapy asking "is it me?" I am so happy  I got divorced. I can't imagine what it must have been like when the AS was the functional one in the family. You are a strong person.
Sounds to me like you have to set up the forum?
 

[MariannaR]

I've been reading through these posts, and have also searched online for information about children of Aspergers parents.  My mom is likely Aspergers.  Monologues, no facial expression/response, does not get jokes, could not mirror me as a child, brutal honesty meant well (you look fat, you're not as smart as your brother).  But also lots of good things.  Regular meals, orderly predictable schedule, very involved in my school and sports.  Though no real friends of her own.  Her special interest was sports, and I could find validation from her when I did sports- so I became good at that.  But I do suffer bouts of low self-esteem, and I question/can't stand up for my feelings.

All that to say, I believe that my uBPD best friend devastating experience was related.  I was so in need of validation, empathy, hugs, etc, from a woman in an authority position (as was my friend) that I would do almost anything to maintain it.  I would put up with nearly any abusive treatment as long as I could get back to that "love bombing" in the form of someone who seemed to care about my inner being - and was a master at mirroring.  Funny how I didn't get mirroring as a child, but got it from someone who used it manipulatively.

Honestly, it's going to be a lifelong process for me to deal with all of this.  But at 49, I do have the rest of my life and I am hopeful.