What do you say to yourself, now that it is all gone?

[NewWays]

What do you say now that it is all totally gone?  Your marriage has crumbled into ashes!

We all have traveled our paths.

We all can honestly say that the day we all married out mates, we never had any reason or awareness at that time to think about our marriage not lasting, about getting divorced, about all the wonderful things we truly believed we were blessed with turning upside down.  We surely never expected in a million years that we would someday become familiar with rage from our spouse that we never knew a human could so violently express.  We all were in disbelief and struggled the first times we saw how our partner could change their emotional course and start behavior that was so new to us yet the most terrifying that saw them blame us for pretty much being the cause of a list of things that were deemed totally wrong with me and the marriage that was made clear I had better fix…and the pain we felt when that same reason was given for the affair your spouse engaged in that was all your fault.

And the list goes on!  But we all have to move on and grow as persons and learn from our past.  As all of you look around, look in the mirror and reflect were you have been and where you are after your divorce what do you say?

What do you feel?

What do you say to yourself, since if you are mature, objective and understand all the facts, we all must be upfront and honest with ourselves that we also contributed to the failure.  We were part of the dynamic and dysfunction and failure but as “nons”, it is very easy to admit to ourselves that since we feel we took the brunt of the abuse, at times wrongly feel it still was “all their fault?”

The other day I recalled all the things that made up our marriage that had finally come to an end and that this feeling I felt was like a very similar feeling the first time growing up near the Colorado Rockies a summer mountain family summer vacation area we traveled to was overrun by a terrible early spring forest fire that due to a previously drought filled summer and low snowfall winter had been devastated by a flash forest fire that left it like an atomic bomb had been dropped that literally destroyed everything.

I remember as a 10 year old youth when we traveled up to “our spot” several weeks after the fire and the feelings then were so filled with disbelief and a wonder of just how this terrible event could be allowed and could have happened.  The walk through the area kept me shaking my head…when I saw the two trees that I tied my hammock to every summer were gone…and the stone and mortar BBQ where I made the best of the best SMORES…had crumbled into a pile of fractured stones which was right next to the 8” x  8” log post with the metal ring that we tied our horses up at when we went horseback riding…was gone and the metal ring looked like Superman got a hold of it!  I continued to shake my head not able to understand how this beautiful area was gone!

What do you say to yourself, now that it is all gone?

What have you learned?

NewWays

[momtara]

Maybe to trust my instincts?  That there are only so many feelings I can push down in order to accept other people?  I made so many excuses for my ex's behavior in the name of compromise.  Then again, I may well end up alone now.  So who knows?

What we can really say is this:  1) We're human, 2) We're not therapists trained in dealing with mentally ill people, and 3) We're not the first to go through this and we're not the last.

That doesn't make it any easier.  I still care about my exH and still mourn the marriage and still hope they will invent some pill to cure BPD and we can be a family.  How dumb is that?

It's not easy.

I do blame myself partly too.  It's hard when a person is so lovable and wonderful half the time and cruel the other time.  What do you do in such a situation?  None of us are equipped to know, because we care too much.

[casper324]

I have lost my 27 year marriage, my oldest disabled daughter,  my dog and the man I thought I would spend the rest of my life with when I married him.  My disabled daughter has lost her siblings, her grandparents,  Aunts and Uncles on my side of the family since he won't let her speak to them.  My other children have lost their home, their family on his side (he made his family make a choice of him or his kids), their  dreams of family weddings etc. 

I've lost my employability since after 500 resumes I got 2 interviews and no offers.  I am unable to work in the career I had for 25 years due to my lack of confidence and age.  I was in sales and now can't sell my way out of a paper bag besides being over 50 and not the image most companies what from their sales people.   I used to make over 90G a year, I am now providing companion care to an elderly man whose butt I have to clean every day. 

I am planning a garage sale to have money for food even if I have to give him 50% of any money I make on selling the last of my stuff.  My daughters dog chewed up my only sandals, I have the chewed areas taped so I have shoes to wear.  My glasses are broke and holding on with a paperclip because I don't have the 200.00+ for a new pair.

I have lost everything and don't think there was anything I could have learned from this process to make it more positive for anyone else.  I now wish I stayed with him and put up with his BS every three months.  The longer and harder my current situation goes on, the more I am inclined to believe him that this was all my doing and I deserve what I am getting now.   

[tiredandbroken]

My divorce is just beginning but the marriage has been over for a long time. I've asked myself these questions many times and have... .for now... .come to these conclusions:

We must all take responsibility for our actions and reactions. A failed marriage is never the responsibility of one person... .it takes two to get married... .it takes two to get divorced... .but it also takes two to live together in a relationship. Any committed relationship must be comprised of mutual respect, honor, and a degree of selflessness. Over the years my actions toward and reactions to my uBPDw have not always been stellar. I know that. I've always been the first to admit that there should be one perfect person in this world because I make enough mistakes for two people. What I have found for myself, however, is that I can not take the responsibility for my wife's behavior... .even though for a long time she had me convinced that I should. I've made plenty of mistakes... .sure... .but I also am willing to admit to them. She, however, will not. At some point I had to realize that I had given as much to the relationship as I could give... .even more than I could give and remain healthy and sane. There was no reciprocation. It seems she's a relational black hole... .sucking the life out of all who will allow it. I've learned that boundaries are necessary... .for my sake... .and for my child's.

I've concluded that projection is real... .and effective.

I've concluded that good people can act very evil

I've concluded that I'm not superman (oh... .how hard that was to accept!)

And I've concluded that no matter how much I love my wife, she will never be able to love me back. Because of this our child was placed in the terrible position of being the cornerstone on which our marriage and family were built. That's not his responsibility... .it's not fair to him to carry that kind of load.

As painful as all of this is I realize that we learn much more from our struggles than we do from our successes. When everything is said and done... .I only know one way to live... .and that's to keep putting one foot in front of the other. When the battle is over... .I may be bloody and bruised... .but if I'm still breathing... .I've won.

[momtara]

Capser, I messaged you privately.  Hang in there. 

[AlonelyOne]

A failed marriage is never the responsibility of one person... .it takes two to get married... .it takes two to get divorced... .but it also takes two to live together in a relationship.

Sorry, I've got to 100% completely disagree with you there. That sort of statement is similar to what I got told in elementary school after being bullied. That it takes two to start a fight. Yes, if you accept a bare minimum of two individuals need to exist. 

But no, it does not take two to provoke a fight. Just one.  And while two people can bring about a divorce, a single member of a marriage can bring it about all on their own.

[livednlearned]

We all can honestly say that the day we all married out mates, we never had any reason or awareness at that time to think about our marriage not lasting,

I didn't think realistically about what it would take to build a mature, intimate, long-term relationship. I had no awareness. Not only did I lack awareness that something tragic was going to happen, I lacked awareness. Period.

We surely never expected in a million years that we would someday become familiar with rage from our spouse that we never knew a human could so violently express.  We all were in disbelief and struggled the first times we saw how our partner could change their emotional course and start behavior that was so new to us yet the most terrifying that saw them blame us for pretty much being the cause of a list of things that were deemed totally wrong with me and the marriage that was made clear I had better fix

For me, it was a continuum. Nothing new about his rage. There was something so familiar about him, but I was so distanced from my own feelings that I didn't even recognize what exactly it was about him that was familiar. He turned out to be a perfect combination of my brother's rage, my father's narcissism, my family's emotional immaturity. He was a perfect foil for me to keep using childhood coping strategies.

What do you say to yourself, since if you are mature, objective and understand all the facts, we all must be upfront and honest with ourselves that we also contributed to the failure.  We were part of the dynamic and dysfunction and failure but as “nons”, it is very easy to admit to ourselves that since we feel we took the brunt of the abuse, at times wrongly feel it still was “all their fault?”

I fault myself for entering the marriage and staying in the relationship. I don't fault myself for ending it. Leaving was the bravest thing I've ever done. I contributed to my own downfall by being afraid to look at myself, to dig up the old feelings and sort it all out. I was afraid, in pain, running and running and running, all the while thinking I had everything under control. That's who I was when I married him. Unfinished business.

The other day I recalled all the things that made up our marriage that had finally come to an end and that this feeling I felt was like a very similar feeling the first time growing up near the Colorado Rockies a summer mountain family summer vacation area we traveled to was overrun by a terrible early spring forest fire that due to a previously drought filled summer and low snowfall winter had been devastated by a flash forest fire that left it like an atomic bomb had been dropped that literally destroyed everything.

I remember as a 10 year old youth when we traveled up to “our spot” several weeks after the fire and the feelings then were so filled with disbelief and a wonder of just how this terrible event could be allowed and could have happened.  The walk through the area kept me shaking my head…when I saw the two trees that I tied my hammock to every summer were gone…and the stone and mortar BBQ where I made the best of the best SMORES…had crumbled into a pile of fractured stones which was right next to the 8” x  8” log post with the metal ring that we tied our horses up at when we went horseback riding…was gone and the metal ring looked like Superman got a hold of it!  I continued to shake my head not able to understand how this beautiful area was gone!

I think a lot about how "two wrongs don't make a right." I used to think I was "wrong," but N/BPDx yelling and raging and being abusive couldn't make me "right." I used to think he was "wrong." But trying to get him to quit drinking, or stop raging or do xy or z, or whatever I needed to make him "right." So we were two wrongs our whole marriage.

The thing is, there is no "right" in a marriage. There is only "two wrongs don't make a right." If both people can't see that, then the relationship is doomed. Maybe people stay in relationships or marriages, limping along, believing if they just fight enough, or manipulate enough, or yell enough, or numb enough, or bend and contort and shape-shift enough, then they can make the other person right, or make themselves right. But you can't. We can't. The point isn't about who is wrong or who is right. It isn't about who is at fault, or who is to blame.

It's about being whole. Being whole when you start the relationship. Or finding someone who wants to be whole, who is working on it, who knows what the struggle feels like and has compassion as you work to be whole too.

[ForeverDad]

It is what it is.  As much as we had dreams and Great Expectations, life happened, teaching us there are no guarantees.  And too much was simply out of our control.  As much as we told ourselves in the past, "If only I had... .", almost surely guilting ourselves would only be self-sabotaging and even wrong, likely there was nothing we could have done to halt or reverse the slow-motion train wreck of the relationship.

So don't look back, that can't be unwritten, look forward, there's an open book before us just waiting to be written.  Write with your heart again.  As beaten down as you may feel, give yourself time to recover.  If you are a parent having difficulty trying to co-parent, don't fret overmuch, give yourself time - and distance.  The longer you're apart, the less you can be controlled and dominated, and hopefully with less obstructions and outrageous behaviors.

[maxen]

A failed marriage is never the responsibility of one person... .it takes two to get married... .it takes two to get divorced... .but it also takes two to live together in a relationship.

Sorry, I've got to 100% completely disagree with you there. That sort of statement is similar to what I got told in elementary school after being bullied. That it takes two to start a fight. Yes, if you accept a bare minimum of two individuals need to exist. 

But no, it does not take two to provoke a fight. Just one.  And while two people can bring about a divorce, a single member of a marriage can bring it about all on their own.

heartily agree with this. thank you.

[livednlearned]

A failed marriage is never the responsibility of one person... .it takes two to get married... .it takes two to get divorced... .but it also takes two to live together in a relationship.

Sorry, I've got to 100% completely disagree with you there. That sort of statement is similar to what I got told in elementary school after being bullied. That it takes two to start a fight. Yes, if you accept a bare minimum of two individuals need to exist. 

But no, it does not take two to provoke a fight. Just one.  And while two people can bring about a divorce, a single member of a marriage can bring it about all on their own.

heartily agree with this. thank you.

For me, this thinking doesn't work. If I am a victim of someone else, then I have no control over me. Like I'm helpless.

And I'm not. I thought I was. But turns out it wasn't true.

Good things happened when I started to really understand that. 

[tiredandbroken]

Livedandlearned this was the intent behind my statement that it takes two. I found myself blaming my uBPDw for everything. Yes... .she is brutal when she rages. Yes... .she is controlling and manipulative when she's not raging. Yes... .she completely discounts most every thought I have that doesn't line up with the way she thinks (and doesn't simply discount it, but often is condescending and sometimes degrading and humiliating while she does it). Yes... .she's completely unpredictable in her behavior. Yes... .she is a classic BPD.

For years I didn't understand why she wouldn't love me... .why the person that vowed to love, honor, cherish, obey through good and bad till death do us part was so unloving, dishonoring, non cherishing, and rebellious. At first I looked hard at myself... .to figure out what I had done to cause her to act this way. Why not? She constantly blamed me for all our problems. Then I became angry with her... .placing all blame at her feet. After a while I realized that this made me no different than her in this respect. Eventually, I started to own what was mine... .and place what was hers at her feet. This is what started my freedom!

We all have a choice. We can cower under the bullying, control, and manipulation or we can resist it. We can stay or we can go. We can allow our boundaries to be breeched or we can enforce our boundaries. We can act or react in ways that make a bad situation better or we can act or react in ways that make a bad situation worse. We have no control over the BPD in our life... .but we DO have control over OUR life.

For me... .when I played the blame game I was the victim... .once again relinquishing ALL control to her. When I got tired of being a victim... .I started to own what is mine and started to take back the control of my life.

[livednlearned]

For me... .when I played the blame game I was the victim... .once again relinquishing ALL control to her. When I got tired of being a victim... .I started to own what is mine and started to take back the control of my life.

I've been trying to understand why it's so hard to explain this to people. Don't you find it hard?

I heard Shawn Achor, a guy who studies positive psychology (he's on TED.com) talk (or maybe I read it) about the glass being half full or half empty. I can't remember how he phrased it exactly, but he said he realized it's not about the glass. It's about the pitcher.

I think that's what I learned from all this. The fault/no fault thing is like the glass. The answer says more about where your own head is at. But it also doesn't accomplish the bigger point that no one ever talks about, which is to fill the glass.

It's about realizing you can fill the darn glass.

[AlonelyOne]

"I started to own what was mine... .and place what was hers at her feet."

See I feel that I've long owned what was mine. And that this was a large part of the problem. If I ever set something that was hers at her feet, it got thrown at me.

So no, I really do not believe there is ANYTHING I could of done to prevent the divorce.


"We can cower under the bullying, control, and manipulation or we can resist it."

Not necessarily, you see resisting it gets you charged with fighting. Though eventually, we realize we're getting blamed for that, then we might as well fight.

But no, I'm sorry. There are just too many examples in life in which it only takes one to cause harm.  And I refuse to bear more burden and blame than I already have.


"We can act or react in ways that make a bad situation better or we can act or react in ways that make a bad situation worse. "

Sorry, still disagree. I trie dso much to make a bad situation better. Frankly, it was rather irrelevant.  It required perfection on my part, something not achievable.  And therefore, is not a valid solution in my book.

Nope, for me, a large part of the healing is to basically put blame where blame belongs. And a good 80% of that, belongs to her.

[ForeverDad]

Nope, for me, a large part of the healing is to basically put blame where blame belongs. And a good 80% of that, belongs to her.

You framed the issue, what next?  Things aren't the way we want them to be, so we have to deal with What Is.  Accept that reality.  The key is determining the solution or least bad alternative.

What is so invalidating and perplexing is that the disordered person (who is not on a path toward recovery) simply refuses to accept ownership, or at least not for long.  That's why this is often called a Blamer's Disorder.  It's hard to wrap our minds around that disconnect.  How do you deal with such a basic concept - accountability - that is so hurtfully and dangerously rejected?  How do you handle blamings, rejections, retaliations, sabotaging and even extreme false allegations that are so foreign to a relationship that should be the opposite, trusting and trusted?  We think we can reason with the person but of course the pattern is to deflect that too.  Add to it that the public generally sees only behaviors that seem just a little off but to those in close relationships who experience the Mask of Seeming Normalcy dropped in private settings, it is hugely extreme.

Our eventual education, resulting insight and improved skills are all ways for us to have objectivity and validation of our own perceptions.  Once we realize we can't reason or coerce our way to solutions - generally our emotionally charged relationship overwhelms the others' moods and perceptions - then we can accept that we can't 'fix' them or the relationship.  Maybe an emotionally neutral professional can help with meaningful therapy, but if that doesn't happen then the only alternative is our own response, making changes that exist within our realm of influence, be it improved boundaries, court orders, divorce or whatever.

[AlonelyOne]

"What is so ... .perplexing"

Agree on so many levels.

[momtara]

I don't think every situation is exactly the same.  Some of us had more control than others, I think.  Regardless, it is good to own what you can.

[livednlearned]

I don't think every situation is exactly the same.  Some of us had more control than others, I think.  Regardless, it is good to own what you can.

I agree, momtara. I suspect it's probably easier to own your stuff depending on what stage of recovery you're at, and whether your ex left you or vice versa.

[SeekerofTruth]

Still coming to terms with my side of intense codependence (and I would have been one of the last people to tell you I would identify on core levels with codependency... .given my misplaced diehard loyalty, faith, and shamistic grandiosity that thinks I can absorb the toxicity and transform it ) and practicing step 1 (misplaced my book, ADD now dissociative short term memory nearly non-existent) and integrating meeetings, readings, and eventual sponsor as a sex and love addict.  Huh?  What?  Is that denial?  No, it's disbelief.  It is surreal.  the sorta sad part is, the healthy me is sitting besides me much of the time.

I know it's a toxic bond.  Tracing back were my vulnerability got established and violated as a child within my FOO, especially my unconscious wounding... .that would get rewounded  even deeper... .since adult dysfunction (my own) has more consequences and responsibilities.

I know its in my behaviors on a daily basis.  to organize my life, clear out some of the clutter, recommit to those "parts" of my self pre meeting my ex... .that were self-caring.  I know self - care is essential.  I have been feeling sorry for myself and spent a lot of time building my case for how hurt I was... .not realizing how hurt I was... .and my response to it... .the more independent of my ex it is... .the more wholistic, healthy, and promising is my future.

But fuc man, to tell the truth, Im still confused and conflicted.  My mind easily wanders to her and remains there.  I know its a toxic love... .and the depth of my addiction to love is making a fool and loser out of me, and the sex "is/was/? great!" ... .... .(oh god, and to think she'd take me crawling back in... .)  It sucks being caught in this repeptitive loop of What the hecks, confirming What the hecks, and reconfirming What the heckS... .and switching up gears a bit to own my lessons.  I love that.  But... .I got to get moving.  Staying in the house is a death sentence.  I've done my time.  I need to pray daily, clean up my place, keep it clean, sort out my bills and monthly budget... . 

I did not know I would not be able to take care of myself, as well as I needed to or was previously able to. I hate that.  It hurts.  I  have faith I will get better.  I need to remember to practice my lessons:  I need to remember on a daily basis to slow down enough to ask god to help me experience humility today... .  I am so grateful for the spiritual emotional intellectual growth I have experience.  I still am sex junkie to her... .and I believe her to me.  She wins I lose in a game of one-upmanship... .that I ambivalently consent to... .

I am deluded to think she'll change.  She an aquarius ya know.

As her email stated today:  "if you know an Aquarius, we have a tendency to change our minds

must drive you nuts "

And so what am I getting out of this? false control , false confidence... .  NOT!

[SeekerofTruth]

And I totally agree one hundred percent; okay 99% with what AlonelyOne posted 7/23/14 at 1:00pm.  Trick for me is to totally place 100-80% of my attention, focus, and energy on my 20%!  still easier said than done... .but soon... .soon come

[mywifecrazy]

What do you say now that it is all totally gone?  Your marriage has crumbled into ashes!

Free at Last, Free at Last, Free at Last... .Thank God Almighty... .I'm Free at Last!

The TRUTH will always set you free... .Even after 20 Yrs

MWC

[NewWays]

All... .

Very upfront and honest comments from all.  We all are moving forward at our own pace and way to ... .but a question.

Since we all have learned much, done a ton of research as we traveled down our path to understand our spouse and the disorder we all can say that the much more realistic assessment we currently have our our marriages and partner is totally different than when we first "bonded" however loaded and anomalous that pairing was.

I can admit that since I was caught up in the on-going exposure (and trying to fix) to the regular earthquake like cycles of my disordered wife and that all to common environment in our marriage, after a while and for sure toward the end of our marriage I came face-to-face in the mirror with some issues that I had never questioned (denial?) let alone even gave real core thinking about for me.  Big blinking neon signs started appearing in the mirror that were asking... .What really is important to me in my life?  What do I need to do work on about me, need to learn and need to change and grow or transform in my life?  Where have I really been the last years of the marriage and what are the chances for actually being able to commit (both of us) to putting in the required emotional and comprehensive therapy by both of us, with no real guarantee of being successful?

How many years into the total time you were married did it take before you clearly understood that your marriage had reached the point on irreparable damage and could look in the mirror and realize that it was all but over?

NewWays

[Hopeless777]

I went 25 years in my wacky relationship and then she physically attacked me, called the police, and they arrested her. It took another year and three recycles before I said enough. Now I have peace and despair, which is better than rage/violence and despair. I'm working through the despair. Separated over two months; NC four weeks. Just dealing with attorneys now. At least I don't have to worry about her throwing herself down the stairs and calling the police and say I assaulted her. What memories 

[Forestaken]

What do you say now that it is all totally gone?  Your marriage has crumbled into ashes!

Free at Last, Free at Last, Free at Last... .Thank God Almighty... .I'm Free at Last!

The TRUTH will always set you free... .Even after 20 Yrs

MWC

LOL!

I'm with you braw! (24 years)  Me: "I ain't gonna be no one's b-tch no mo'!"

[NewWays]

24 Years... .I am sorry you had to endure for such a long... .long time.

NewWays

[Panda39]

How many years into the total time you were married did it take before you clearly understood that your marriage had reached the point on irreparable damage and could look in the mirror and realize that it was all but over?

For my SO it was 17 years.  The catalysts were his father dying and his mother asking who the hell he was, where did her son go?  She didn't know him anymore.  With that he realized he didn't know anymore either.  He had been swallowed up by the dysfunction.  Around that time he also had an old girlfriend reach out to him via email who reminded him of who he had been and that he was lovable. (a little shot of self-esteem) So he began to slowly walk the path out of the FOG.  That was 4 years ago and a hellacious divorce completed 2 years ago. 

I've been with him through much of this and have watched him go from the co-dependent dance in the beginning of his separation to the knowledgeable confident guy he is today.  He is currently LC with is uBPDexw because they have children.  But he has learned to manage that relationship pretty well (still hiccups every once and a while).  He has a good relationship with his daughters and his mom is has been his biggest supporter (financiall & emotionally) through it all... .she got her son back 

[Turkish]

Why did I propose to someone who telegraphed a pathological aversion to marriage/commitment in the first place, when every instict told me to run after the first date? "We had a good 6 year run," as she flippantly told me later with our little kids sleeping in the next room.

What do I really say to myself now, and my T and wise friends say it too? We have two beautiful children despite, not because.

[NewWays]

Turkish... .and all... .

I still always must give all here that brought children into this world with their disordered spouse/partner more credit than I can ever give a just amout of for going through all of the things we all go through being in a relationship and ending a relationship with our disordered partner when children are involved.

I always wanted children, but looking back it at times seems to be a blessing with what I went through during the marriage, the divorce and even now after the divorce!

How do you all do the same and carry on each and every day... .with the added issues that children add to the mix?... .that makes the challenge, stress, chaos and pain even worse at times I would imagine.

Again, I take my hat off to all of you that walk this path with children involved.  I do not know how you do it!

NewWays

[mywifecrazy]

Turkish... .and all... .

I still always must give all here that brought children into this world with their disordered spouse/partner more credit than I can ever give a just amout of for going through all of the things we all go through being in a relationship and ending a relationship with our disordered partner when children are involved.

I always wanted children, but looking back it at times seems to be a blessing with what I went through during the marriage, the divorce and even now after the divorce!

How do you all do the same and carry on each and every day... .with the added issues that children add to the mix?... .that makes the challenge, stress, chaos and pain even worse at times I would imagine.

Again, I take my hat off to all of you that walk this path with children involved.  I do not know how you do it!

NewWays

It's not easy. Having a pwBPD as the 2nd parent is like having another child. I have two boys (14&9) with my uBPDxw. It's like having an ADULT TODDLER as a 3rd child. My boys are more mature and responsible than their mother... .ugh 

MWC... .

[mywifecrazy]

What do I really say to myself now, and my T and wise friends say it too? We have two beautiful children despite, not because.

Same here Turkish... .Same here!

MWC... .

[ForeverDad]

Over the years my then-spouse gradually became increasingly high maintenance.  At some point, after some 10 years or so, I thought having a child would give her a positive spin on life, that she could see wonderful discoveries and life though our child's eyes.  Boy, was I naive!  Instead she starting reliving her difficult childhood through him.  For example, she had always said her abuser stepfather had moved in when she was three years old.  Want to guess how old our son was when we separated?  Yes, three years old. :'(  Now that is what imploded our marriage, turned it from "high maintenance" into "high conflict".  I learned the hard way... .While children are wonderful blessings, they do not fix the relationship issues nor the parents, rather they vastly complicate life for all involved, even when it comes to unwinding the dysfunctional marital relationship.