What's my next step? I am so confused.

[CoChuck]

This is my first time here and desperately need to hear the advice from the wise people who have posted in other forums. 

I have been married to a woman with highly functional, undiagnosed BPD for nearly 35 years. Truly, to anyone who has not lived with us for week or more, she is the worlds most kind, generous person.  Our children and my family know differently. She is still very kind, but they know the hell (and paradise) that is life living with her.

Within months of our dating, I quickly realized some behaviors that led to paradise and others led to great turmoil. I have been walking on eggshells ever since. In the early days, this meant I needed to follow her from graduate school to graduate school so that she could obtain a degree - she told me I did not have to come with her, but really I did. When our children were born, she stopped working to be home with them. However, she insisted I not work because they were too much for her and our nanny. She told me it was time to stop being such a "man" and take care of the kids. But I was caring for them, from the moment they were born. I was up with them every night (breastfeeding was too stressful), I fed them every meal, changed every diaper. This continued until they were sick of me, in college.  The upside is I have a wonderful relationship with all three of my children.

Within a year of being married, she decided I was too big (I was a college athlete) and refused to be intimate with me. Truly, with the exception of conceiving our children, our relationship has lacked physical intimacy since the beginning.

At the time, she told me it was because of the way I reacted to her. He was frustrated with me "at least 1000 times a day" and every 10,000 times or so, I would be defensive. This triggered an explosion.

I learned defensiveness is pointless. So, I started reacting to her outrage with an effort to calmly talk about facts. You can imagine the response I received to "these inaccurate" facts. I started recording our fights (with her permission) in hopes of revealing the actual words expressed in these fights. She listened to one at the insistence of our therapist. Her response was the audio did not pick up on the anger in my voice or the expression on my face. 

I could go one, I'm sure you all have experienced something similar. I moved for attempts to explain the situation to turning against myself. I became hopeless and felt suicidal after our fights. My wife described my behavior as "threatening suicide" causing her to experience post traumatic stress.

With meditation, I moved from self-loathing to quietly observing her outbursts. My quiet outraged her because I felt disengaged to her. She wanted me to not take things so personally and to not be such an active participant in the fights (which are all because I "cannot let things go). To not engage in the fight, I have to be disengaging.

OK, so maybe I try to be calmly honest with my feelings. I stay calm, realizing her illness, and work not to take what she says personally. I will not react when my wrong decision leads to her outrage in the same way the OPPOSITE decision led to it yesterday. I will do all I can to let her know I still love her, but I will be honest with her when I hit a limit and pull away a bit to protect myself.

Pulling away was a BIG mistake because it indicated to her that I thought life was hard. I believe she has a very poor self-image that is destroyed when she sees I am angry. I notice this even if she perceives I am angry.

I am not trying to validate her feelings without accepting blame or responsibility. Recently, she was furious when my boss did not invite her to a meeting with me (we work as executives at a company we helped start). She thought I should have insisted she be included in the meeting. I explained it I understand how she can feel upset at being left out. And I was sorry. This is NOT enough for her. She needed me to convince her I would not leave her out of important meetings again. Of course, she is equally angry when I invite her to a meeting she did not need to attend, "thanks for wasting my time!"

I am hurt and frustrated. Unfortunately, after a week of similar outbursts, I let her see my frustration by "not being as loving as I usually am." I hit my limit and need her to hear how frequently she gets angry with me. How I have to walk on eggshells around her.

Here is what I now know. My wife (maybe others with BPD) does not/cannot hear how I do things to avoid her ire. If I use a phrase used in the PBD community, she reacts strongly, not with anger, but hurt and distance.

She comes from a very wealthy family and we can afford some possible solutions. I suggest I take regular trips to re-energize and she insists I hate living with her. I suggest we take an apartment in a nearby beach community and she accuses me of wanting to live a good life. Every suggestion reemphasizes I need a break from her.

I do need a break. I would be fine separating and divorcing, things that terrify her. Honestly, someone needs to take care of her and that needs to be me. But I need to find the balance to taking care of myself as well. She insists I learn to be happy with her. That is impossible.

So, what is my next step? What is the next strategy? I realize I am in for a life of these crises, but I'd like to lengthen the gap between them. Do I travel and tell her, yes, I need breaks. I honestly do not know how to proceed.

If I met my 25 year old self, I would say GET OUT! That said, I have three wonderful children and have a wonderful job, albeit one for which I am not paid (a story for another thread).  But I am a 60 year old with a massive history with a lovely, troubled, demanding woman.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Bsha100]

I think we're all here for the same reasons. It was hard to read the descriptions of your experiences. It's uplifting to hear that you have good relationships with your kids.

I find myself wondering constantly how much of my life I'm willing to give to my BP. I'm sure that you have had the same thoughts. It's a hard line to walk, and a complicated situation to be in. Especially with children involved.

I feel for you. My advice for your next step would be to evaluate what your life was before her, what your life has been with her, and what your life could be without her.

It's always hard moving on. Change, in any way is difficult. But if that's what you need, the end result will be better.

I'm so sorry for what you're going through, and no matter what you decide to do, ai wish you the best. There's always a light at the end of the tunnel. You just have to get to the end of the tunnel to see it.

[ForeverDad]

I have been married to a woman with highly functional, undiagnosed BPD for nearly 35 years.

I do need a break. I would be fine separating and divorcing, things that terrify her. Honestly, someone needs to take care of her and that needs to be me. But I need to find the balance to taking care of myself as well. She insists I learn to be happy with her. That is impossible.

"Honestly, someone needs to take care of her and" ... that can be her, mostly.

Many here, myself included, were convinced that our spouses could not handle post-marriage life.  In the final couple years of my 15 years married together she was cycling back and forth through ranting, raging, sobbing, moaning and groaning.  Guess what?  Once we separated, divorced and started living separate lives, she pulled herself together.  Sure, there was tons of animosity, disparagement and - since we had a small child - abuse allegations.  Yet the past 15+ years she's done reasonably well for herself.  Yes, her parenting is less than desirable and I have to be very careful with my words and actions when she is around to avoid triggering her too much but it is more manageable than living with her.

YMMV (your mileage may vary) but overall, living separate lives is possible and typically less triggering all around.  Why? Borderline PD is a disorder most evident and impacting in close relationships.  The more distance apart and for more time, the less the extent and impact of the behaviors.  That's why people she may meet only peripherally or occasionally only think she's a little off.  They don't have the sustained close contact you have and so she isn't quite to triggered and impactful.  Well, most of the time.

Does that start to make sense?

Some here have managed to remain together.  Others are in process and "together for now" while determining what the future might be.  And still others, seeing that therapy was refused or unsuccessful, did separate and live mostly separate lives.  When there are children from a shared past typically total separation (as in NC = No Contact) isn't practical or helpful.

Boundaries -- practical boundaries that work -- are essential.  She will of course resist boundaries.  That's why boundaries are for you, that is, how you respond to poor behaviors.  Read the topics on Boundaries here:
Tools & Skills Workshops directory
Setting Boundaries and Setting Limits

[CoChuck]

I find myself wondering constantly how much of my life I'm willing to give to my BP. I'm sure that you have had the same thoughts. It's a hard line to walk, and a complicated situation to be in. Especially with children involved.

I did wonder quite a bit at what I'd given for this marriage. Intimacy, travel, independence, etc. But it is what it is. Now I have to decide what my future holds. What are my limits and what can I regain. I also want to remind myself what I am dealing with every day. Last night, I wrote this reminder to myself that pops up every morning.

I might say x,  but she hears it as describing a flaw and feels rejection. She protects herself by claiming her victimhood.  Desperate to reestablish herself as a good person she attacks me.  This phrase reminds me to respond to her emotion in an engaged way without getting involved.

Regardless of the limits I set, I am in for a lonely life.

[CoChuck]

Boundaries -- practical boundaries that work -- are essential.  She will of course resist boundaries.  That's why boundaries are for you, that is, how you respond to poor behaviors.  Read the topics on Boundaries here:
Tools & Skills Workshops directory
Setting Boundaries and Setting Limits

This is very helpful, thank you.  I particularly like the idea of reframing boundaries as being something people set for themselves, what behavior are they willing to accept and not accept.

How do you think my wife will respond if I mention this perspective of boundaries the next time she tells me I have "blown right the the boundary I just set"?!?

[ForeverDad]

Logic typically loses when weighed against the overwhelming emotion and mood driven perceptions of a person with BPD (pwBPD).  In your spouse's mind her perceptions are her reality.  Maybe for a while it may work but sooner or later something will trigger her and she'll resurrect her old mantra how your boundaries always fail.

The beauty of your boundary being how you respond is that YOU control your response.  Sorry, it's not up for debate, demands, interrogations into the wee hours of the night.

Be forewarned that (1) she will be sure to sabotage them, probably endlessly, and (2) if you don't hold the line to your stated boundaries - if you blink - then she will sense your weakness and increase the pressure or manipulation.

Let's take parenting, for example.  When dealing with parenting matters such as exchange details, illness, unpredictable events, etc, we then have to make exceptions sometimes.  That's life.  But the ex will seize that as an opportunity to breach a prior boundary you had set up.  It's very important to state clearly that such changes are a brief exception and that your rule, your boundary still applies.

As you asked, what if my spouse doesn't like it?  Um, is there a nice way to say "tough, prior efforts didn't work, this is the way it will have to be"?

My story... back in the final year or two of my marriage, I finally relented and decided to myself I would apologize for whatever my spouse demanded.  You can guess how that went.  I failed miserably.  I was apologizing for things over and over, once wasn't enough.  Then I noticed she started demanding I word my apologies how she wanted me to say them.  I got fed up sometimes and when she made me repeat them, I'd leave out a phrase and she'd demand I repeat it all over again.  So I did and left out something else.  I couldn't believe it, she didn't even catch on that now I was forgetting pieces purposely!  After several months I told her my new boundary was that I'd go back to the past approach, I would only apologize if I felt an apology was merited.  That didn't go over well.  But by then she was sensitized to so much of me that months later the marriage imploded.  I had tried but nothing worked.  She refused meaningful therapy so I could see the End was inevitable, like a slow motion train wreck.

[CoChuck]

Logic typically loses when weighed against the overwhelming emotion and mood driven perceptions of a person with BPD (pwBPD).  In your spouse's mind her perceptions are her reality.  Maybe for a while it may work but sooner or later something will trigger her and she'll resurrect her old mantra how your boundaries always fail.

The beauty of your boundary being how you respond is that YOU control your response.  Sorry, it's not up for debate, demands, interrogations into the wee hours of the night.

I applaud your courage. Setting and holding to boundaries in the face of your pwBPD is tough. For me, I am hooked on the PBD-high that comes during the peaceful times. The times when my spouse is my absolute best friend.

So, for two days, my wife has been impossible. To must questions, she says, "whatever you want (I don't want to upset you)", "I did not want to assume you'd do it (it is cook dinner, something I have done for our family for 20 years now)" or "I'm just trying to avoid you getting so angry with me." Even when she is being her absolute most careful, she cannot resist scolding me or criticizing my behavior within 10 minutes of any time together. 

This recent pullback and wall building is a result of our last therapy appointment, where our therapist suggested we BOTH approach disagreements with loving, curious questions. I responded by saying my loving, curious questions send the message to my wife that I am angry with her or I'm defending myself. How I respond is not as important as responding in a loving accepting way. I simply cannot send the message that I am unhappy with her. 

Of course, saying this sent the message that she was flawed, unable to hear a criticism, a truism I work very hard to communicate.  Now the wall is up, every interaction is like talking to an angry teenager. I know I need to be in parent mode right now. I'm not sure I can.

Here is an urgent questions. I am not to this boundary setting for myself. Do I tell my wife these new boundaries to give her a chance to met them or do I just follow-through? OK, writing that question, I realize the answer. Still, you know there is NO way my wife will say comply, not when she believes I am so unhappy with her.

Do I try to be a patient parent for a while, do I let her know this boundary, or do I simply leave for a few days?  If I'm a patient parent, for how long do I need to assume that role? 

My goodness. Relationships with a pwBPD can suck!

[Notwendy]

One of the ideas that helped me to understand the dynamics is the Karpman triangle. My BPD mother is in victim perspective. She perceives actions or statements as being intended to hurt her in some way. Even if there's no intention to be hurtful- she still perceives it as such.

I didn't perceive my family of origin as wealthy. Dad didn't come from wealth but he had a good job and was able to provide for us. He did hire nannies and household help and like you, did most of the hands on care for us kids. As a result- I was more bonded to him. So while your marriage is difficult- you do see the result of the care you gave to your children.

Over the years, you have abdicated your own needs in order to care for your wife and family. I wonder how much of your self identity is invested in being her support person. Of course she's going to turn to you for this- you've done a great job at it. But as ForeverDad suggested- it would be an adjustment if you left but- your wife has skills. She was able to attain a degree. She has the funds to be able to hire people to help her.

My BPD mother is also a high emotional need person. Being alone is uncomfortable for her. She gets very anxious and so one of our roles has been to be the listening person to calm her down. It is emotionally taxing as the needs are high. Dad was that main person. Even if we were out for a short errand- she'd call just about every 5 minutes- "where are you, when are you coming back?"

As emotionally needy as my mother appears to be, she also is remarkably resilient and knows how to get her needs met. She can be manipulative and get other people to go along with her and do things for her. Like you, Dad was the best caretaker but it didn't change that she has BPD which affects her thinking and emotions. We feared how she'd cope after he passed away but she surprised us by doing better than we imagined. Her coping skills may be disfunctional but they work for her. She knows how to get her needs met.

I wonder what your children think of your situation. I was concerned for my father in his elder years. But it was his relationship to choose and he was a part of the dynamics too. The "hooked on the BPD high that comes with peaceful times" is a familiar observation.

Your question about talking about boundaries. I naively tried that before understanding BPD. It doesn't work. For my mother "talking" goes through that BPD filter into something that hurts her. She perceives boundaries as being hurtful to her too. However, I found that they were necessary for me. Actions work better- to disengage from difficult conversations for example, rather than try to explain myself. It's difficult to say no to her. I understand how living with her in the same house would make it more difficult to do so. I think it's good to get some space for yourself. You may not be able to plan a long trip but even an hour at the gym, or a walk. And also to interact with other people when possible- such as in a job or some sort of shared interest- sport, hobby.

[CoChuck]

For my mother "talking" goes through that BPD filter into something that hurts her. She perceives boundaries as being hurtful to her too. However, I found that they were necessary for me. Actions work better- to disengage from difficult conversations for example, rather than try to explain myself. It's difficult to say no to her. I understand how living with her in the same house would make it more difficult to do so. I think it's good to get some space for yourself. You may not be able to plan a long trip but even an hour at the gym, or a walk. And also to interact with other people when possible- such as in a job or some sort of shared interest- sport, hobby.

Wow! This is the first time I really understood why talking seems to get nowhere with my pwBPD. I am shocked by what I hear back from her during these talks. I've made so many adjustments over the years to accommodate her reasons for the talks not working. Still, they don't. Instead, things become better, as if by magic. Actually, my wife sees that I do care about her.  One time, we had a 3 month series of fights. I tried to talk numerous times, I took a one week trip, spent as much time away from her as possible. Then, when discussing next year's budget, I offered to pay for a project we were planning (her annual income is $900K, mine is about $60K).  She teared up, looked at me, and said, this is the first time you've shown you care for three months.  What do you do? I said, "I'm glad you see I care" and hugged her.

Thank you for sparking these thoughts.