New Beginnings & Boundaries 5...

[MaroonLiquid]

Today was awesome on the field for my girls and youngest son.  We won 12-4!  My wife's daughter (my step-daughter) hit a double, a triple and a home run!  My oldest daughter struck out 5 and only allowed 2 earned runs, had a hit and my youngest (catcher) had a single and a double.  My son won 12-10 and had two hits and scored twice.  My wife came to his game which was before ours and stood next to me and talked while we watched until we had to be back for our game.  We are going to be celebrating my sons birthday as a family this evening with dinner and going to a trampoline park and let the kids jump.  

I have decided to act the way I always have and find a lawyer and respond when I do that next week.  I'm not going to bring strife into the situation and going to continue to be the steady one.  My mom told me I'm a coward for refusing to have anything to do with her because she filed.  I'm handling it the way I feel is right regardless how anyone else feels.  I'm not ignoring it, but at the same time, not going to be all up in arms about it or change because she chose to file.  It has been days since I have checked my wife's Facebook and I feel pretty good about myself.  Pretty great day so far!  I'm also choosing to remain on the "staying board" for the time being as this fits where I'm at knowing nothing is final.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[KateCat]

 

[formflier]

 

 

From me too!

[MaroonLiquid]

 

From me too!

Thanks Kate and FF!

We went to dinner and celebrated for my son and had a good time.  My wife was flirting with me at dinner and I was flirting with her.  When we got to the trampoline place, she was deep into her phone for about 20 minutes.  We talked occasionally and there was a moment while the kids were jumping when my wife and I were talking that my wife started to dysregulate.  I asked her if she would like to have dinner later this week and she said yes.  She told me the day that was best for her and I said, "Great, it's a date."  Wrong move on my part!   . She asked why I would say that considering how we ware on two different side of the spectrum.  I said, "That doesn't mean that we can't spend some time together."  She said, "You do realize I filed for divorce right?"  I said, "Yes, I got the papers.  I still love and adore you.  That hasn't changed."  She then started to project a bunch of stuff on to me about everything being my way and never compromising and she couldn't live that way.  I said, I hear what you're saying.  You have some very valid concerns and I won't live that way either.  I have come to terms with my shortcomings and continue to get help for them.  About that time, the kids walked up (which was good) and then we changed the subject back to softball and then we left.  She hugged the kids and then hugged me.  We are texting so that's good.

[Grey Kitty]

Well... .I was going to say that you are eventually going to have to acknowledge that your wife filed for divorce with her.

And I was going to suggest you wait 'till you've consulted with your lawyer on it. I hope you manage that going forward.

And... .I'd like to draw  your attention to one thing.

You were having a great time with your wife at dinner... .until you asked her for some time together... .which sent her toward dysregulation.

Does this seem like a consistent pattern to you? That when you get together with her as a family (with kids) thing, it can go well... .even if you end up alone with her while the kids are busy... .but when you ask for that, you get a bad reaction.

[MaroonLiquid]

Well... .I was going to say that you are eventually going to have to acknowledge that your wife filed for divorce with her.

And I was going to suggest you wait 'till you've consulted with your lawyer on it. I hope you manage that going forward.

And... .I'd like to draw  your attention to one thing.

You were having a great time with your wife at dinner... .until you asked her for some time together... .which sent her toward dysregulation.

Does this seem like a consistent pattern to you? That when you get together with her as a family (with kids) thing, it can go well... .even if you end up alone with her while the kids are busy... .but when you ask for that, you get a bad reaction.

She was fine with it and the "spending time together" until it spilled out, "Great it's a date."  That was the trigger.  She was fine with dinner until that.  But she calmed down with the validation and the kids walking up and it ended well.  You're right though and don't really understand why.  But I guess I can't worry about that.  We even talked about spending time with our son and she was good with that.

[Grey Kitty]

I get that calling it a "date" was the triggering aspect of it.

What I found interesting was that she was happy to be flirting with you, but triggered by planning a "date" with you, at least when it was named a date.

It is kinda weird that they seem so different for her... .but it seems like a trend to me.

[MaroonLiquid]

I get that calling it a "date" was the triggering aspect of it.

What I found interesting was that she was happy to be flirting with you, but triggered by planning a "date" with you, at least when it was named a date.

It is kinda weird that they seem so different for her... .but it seems like a trend to me.

What kind of trend?  What are you thinking?

[formflier]

 

Is there anything about the way she talks about dating and romantic things... .that shows a big difference in "friends with benefits" and "dating and/or lovers".

This is a stab in the dark... .

I'm seeing same trend... .and think we have missed part of the story because you probably didn't think it was important.

Another way of saying it... ."time seems ok... .romantic time... .not so much... "... .maybe

Thoughts?

[MaroonLiquid]

Is there anything about the way she talks about dating and romantic things... .that shows a big difference in "friends with benefits" and "dating and/or lovers".

This is a stab in the dark... .

I'm seeing same trend... .and think we have missed part of the story because you probably didn't think it was important.

Another way of saying it... ."time seems ok... .romantic time... .not so much... "... .maybe

Thoughts?

I'm not sure.  Before the last incident with the w/d, she said it feels like we are dating and wanted to know when I was going to take her out.  So if it wasn't about that, then why would she ask me that.  I don't really know.  When she dysregulates, she says she doesn't love me the same way, but then when she gets over it, she is back to how much she wants to work on things, the marriage and how much she loves me.  I think it goes back to backing herself into a corner so to speak with people regarding all that she has told them.  She can't look like a liar to people, vulnerable, or that she is "wrong".  I think "romantic time" brings up things that she doesn't like to deal with.  I believe my T was right.  It always leads back to her unhealthiness and she can't face it yet. That's why I told her that I got the papers but that I still love her and that doesn't change that.  One thing I forgot to mention was the night before she dysregulated this last time, I gave her the Valentines card that she wouldn't accept last month.  She read it and turned over and cried.  I just sat there and stroked her hair for a while and I told her once I loved her.  She said she knows I do.  A few minutes later she rolled over, looked at me and said she loved me too, continued to lay on me and then we were intimate.  It was one of the most passionate and intimate moments we've had in almost a year.  Why would she talk about a "future together" if that's not what she wanted.  The only other thing she has said, but she has said for several years is we sure know how to "make love" right, but we don't know how to fight fair.

[Grey Kitty]

This is the pattern I see... .

ML: Wife, lets spend some quality time together.

(If by text message)

Wife: <crickets>

(If on phone / face to face)

Wife: Dysregulation and/or rejection

You've asked to discuss significant issues... .you've asked for a dinner date... .you offered her a Valentine's gift... .


Efforts on your part to get her to work on the marriage, like asking her to go to MC got similar reactions as well. Different stimulus on your part, but same reaction.


I'm thinking that for HER, the act of making the commitment/choice... .or the request from you for this... .which she may see as a demand instead of a request... .or feel guilty about it... .or just not feel like it is 'safe' to refuse the request... .something there is important to her--in a way she cannot handle it.

Actually being emotionally or physically intimate with you is NOT the same thing, and doesn't trigger whatever this other aspect of it triggers in her.


What you can DO about this... .not much, 'tho if you see the same pattern... .my advice is STOP ASKING. Give yourself a limit of how often you ask her for intimacy/commitment (not involving kids). I'd suggest... .once a year. You've already exceeded your quota for 2015.

[KateCat]

I think this is really sensitive and astute observation from Grey Kitty.

At least two of you guys currently working so hard on your marriages here are of the "biblical marriage" conviction. And it seems that you--at least for one--are challenged to blaze very new territory in your efforts to honor your values. If anyone can do it, it could be you. 

[MaroonLiquid]

I'm thinking that for HER, the act of making the commitment/choice... .or the request from you for this... .which she may see as a demand instead of a request... .or feel guilty about it... .or just not feel like it is 'safe' to refuse the request... .something there is important to her--in a way she cannot handle it.

What do you mean by the last comment about something there being important to her in a way she can't handle it?  Sorry, lost me there.  She obviously feels safe to refuse the requests because she has.

Actually being emotionally or physically intimate with you is NOT the same thing, and doesn't trigger whatever this other aspect of it triggers in her.

I find that strange not knowing what it is that triggers her... .You would think being emotionally and physically intimate would be way more of a trigger than time together.  But I guess that begins to open up a can of worms for her where she starts to feel her decisions and becomes difficult.

What you can DO about this... .not much, 'tho if you see the same pattern... .my advice is STOP ASKING. Give yourself a limit of how often you ask her for intimacy/commitment (not involving kids). I'd suggest... .once a year. You've already exceeded your quota for 2015.

Good point.  Once a year though?  

I think this is really sensitive and astute observation from Grey Kitty.

At least two of you guys currently working so hard on your marriages here are of the "biblical marriage" conviction. And it seems that you--at least for one--are challenged to blaze very new territory in your efforts to honor your values. If anyone can do it, it could be you.  

I'm trying, as crazy as it sounds at times, while there is a divorce now "on the books".  My family thinks I'm nuts.  Am I?  When everyone tells me I am, I start to wonder.  I think she was shocked last night when she "threw out the comment" regarding filing and I didn't get into a back and forth.  You should have seen her face when I said, "That doesn't change the fact that I still love and adore you."  It was almost like I could see the fear and uncertainty in her eyes and that's when she started projecting and trying to convince herself that what she's done is the right thing. 

[123Phoebe]

I think she was shocked last night when she "threw out the comment" regarding filing and I didn't get into a back and forth.  You should have seen her face when I said, "That doesn't change the fact that I still love and adore you."  It was almost like I could see the fear and uncertainty in her eyes and that's when she started projecting and trying to convince herself that what she's done is the right thing. 

Threw out the comment? 

She straight out asked, "You do realize I filed for divorce right?"

She's taken your MacBook (think it was?), your car, she's filed for divorce... .  What is your bottom line in this relationship?  Do you have one?  Can she do anything at all and you'll still "love and adore her" and push for more dates?

[KateCat]

Yeah, don't push for more dates or pursue her with adoration. Keep eliminating ways she can punish you.

[MaroonLiquid]

Good point by both of you.  Understood.  I feel stupid now.   :'(.  Just trying to be the one that isn't strife filled and show that I want things to be better.  I won't ask anymore. 

[123Phoebe]

Maroon, I have done so many stupid things it's not even funny and I got over it, so did he!

Not being strife filled while wanting things to get better is very noble.  Things don't get better by giving into the disorder, or fighting the disorder.  The disorder remains!  Things get better by detaching from the disorder, while attaching to ourselves and knowing our limits.  Respecting them and theirs!  So many other things, too.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm thinking that for HER, the act of making the commitment/choice... .or the request from you for this... .which she may see as a demand instead of a request... .or feel guilty about it... .or just not feel like it is 'safe' to refuse the request... .something there is important to her--in a way she cannot handle it.

What do you mean by the last comment about something there being important to her in a way she can't handle it?  Sorry, lost me there.  She obviously feels safe to refuse the requests because she has.

Actually being emotionally or physically intimate with you is NOT the same thing, and doesn't trigger whatever this other aspect of it triggers in her.

I find that strange not knowing what it is that triggers her... .You would think being emotionally and physically intimate would be way more of a trigger than time together.  But I guess that begins to open up a can of worms for her where she starts to feel her decisions and becomes difficult.

When I say there is something 'important' about this for her, I mean that she has a powerful emotional reaction to something here. When I say she can't handle it, I mean she doesn't have the emotional capacity to deal with her feelings, whatever they are. So she goes to her 'normal' coping mechanism which lets her avoid those feelings... .wait for it... .she rejects you, and is now successfully distracted from whatever difficult feeling arose in her by blaming things on you/attacking you.

And no, you can't DO anything about this. You can't share this information with her and have a good result. She may figure it out in a week, a month, a year, or a decade. Or not. I'm supremely confident that you cannot get her to understand things; the best you can do is avoid triggering the process.

What I see as the trigger in her is NOT the time together... .or the physical/emotional time together.

The trigger I see is your REQUEST for the time together.

My suggestion is that if you want 'dates' with her, don't ask for them, and don't call them that.

Or at least wait 'till you have reason to expect 80~90% chance of success when you ask, instead of a 1~10% chance of success... .which will only happen when she has changed somehow.

My other suggestion is that if you want to stay involved with her kids, and want her to be involved with your kids... .but have given up on a romantic relationship with her... .stop asking her for 'dates'.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm trying, as crazy as it sounds at times, while there is a divorce now "on the books".  My family thinks I'm nuts.  Am I?  When everyone tells me I am, I start to wonder.

No, you aren't nuts. She is. You understand how filing for divorce fits into the "I hate you, don't leave me" part of the disorder. Your family doesn't understand it, and trying to explain it to them isn't a battle worth fighting today.

If your gut and your values say to keep working on your relationship... .keep doing it. It is your choice, not mine.

I'm supporting you in your choice, and trying to advise you in smarter/wiser ways to implement it. That's why you are posting this on the Staying board here--we DO understand.

[KateCat]

If your gut and your values say to keep working on your relationship... .keep doing it. It is your choice, not mine.

I'm supporting you in your choice, and trying to advise you in smarter/wiser ways to implement it. That's why you are posting this on the Staying board here--we DO understand.

Sounds like you are at that point in the hero's spiritual journey where he goes out into the wilderness all alone, and no others accompany him at this moment. Doesn't  mean it's the wrong path.

[MaroonLiquid]

Maroon, I have done so many stupid things it's not even funny and I got over it, so did he!

Not being strife filled while wanting things to get better is very noble.  Things don't get better by giving into the disorder, or fighting the disorder.  The disorder remains!  Things get better by detaching from the disorder, while attaching to ourselves and knowing our limits.  Respecting them and theirs!  So many other things, too.

When I detached a couple of weeks ago and stepped back for a week, she invited me to the lake and stuff the weekend before she filed after the last dysregulation. 

I'm thinking that for HER, the act of making the commitment/choice... .or the request from you for this... .which she may see as a demand instead of a request... .or feel guilty about it... .or just not feel like it is 'safe' to refuse the request... .something there is important to her--in a way she cannot handle it.

What do you mean by the last comment about something there being important to her in a way she can't handle it?  Sorry, lost me there.  She obviously feels safe to refuse the requests because she has.

Actually being emotionally or physically intimate with you is NOT the same thing, and doesn't trigger whatever this other aspect of it triggers in her.

I find that strange not knowing what it is that triggers her... .You would think being emotionally and physically intimate would be way more of a trigger than time together.  But I guess that begins to open up a can of worms for her where she starts to feel her decisions and becomes difficult.

When I say there is something 'important' about this for her, I mean that she has a powerful emotional reaction to something here. When I say she can't handle it, I mean she doesn't have the emotional capacity to deal with her feelings, whatever they are. So she goes to her 'normal' coping mechanism which lets her avoid those feelings... .wait for it... .she rejects you, and is now successfully distracted from whatever difficult feeling arose in her by blaming things on you/attacking you.

And no, you can't DO anything about this. You can't share this information with her and have a good result. She may figure it out in a week, a month, a year, or a decade. Or not. I'm supremely confident that you cannot get her to understand things; the best you can do is avoid triggering the process.

What I see as the trigger in her is NOT the time together... .or the physical/emotional time together.

The trigger I see is your REQUEST for the time together.

My suggestion is that if you want 'dates' with her, don't ask for them, and don't call them that.

Or at least wait 'till you have reason to expect 80~90% chance of success when you ask, instead of a 1~10% chance of success... .which will only happen when she has changed somehow.

My other suggestion is that if you want to stay involved with her kids, and want her to be involved with your kids... .but have given up on a romantic relationship with her... .stop asking her for 'dates'.

Yeah, when I just asked to have dinner together she was fine, but then when I said the dreaded word "date", that's when she started to dysregulate.

I'm supporting you in your choice, and trying to advise you in smarter/wiser ways to implement it. That's why you are posting this on the Staying board here--we DO understand.

I know and I do appreciate all of you.

Sounds like you are at that point in the hero's spiritual journey where he goes out into the wilderness all alone, and no others accompany him at this moment. Doesn't  mean it's the wrong path.

Yeah, it just sucks when you feel like you have no support.

[KateCat]

It must be a really lonely feeling. Even in this support community, it seems to me that your wife's behaviors stand out as a little unusual and puzzling.

[MaroonLiquid]

It must be a really lonely feeling. Even in this support community, it seems to me that your wife's behaviors stand out as a little unusual and puzzling.

Yeah... .Tell me about it... .Unless someone has a more plausible explanation, the only thing that makes sense is control... .

[formflier]

Good point by both of you.  Understood.  I feel stupid now.   :'(.  Just trying to be the one that isn't strife filled and show that I want things to be better.  I won't ask anymore. 

I'm actually a fan of you expressing your love and adoration... .in that moment that she asked or confirmed that you know she filed for divorce.

If there was ever a moment to "be clear"... .that was it.  You were very clear.

The issue is clearly back in her court... .she... .most likely... .will deal with it in a dysfunctional way... .but that is her issue and not yours.

If she ever again makes a declarative statment... .or asks about divorce... .IMO... you have two options.  If it's been a while... .weeks I think would suffice... .then I would clearly state the same thing you did. 

If it's been a couple hours... .it's most likely a baiting tactic to get you to argue... .and you can either be silent... or say you have nothing further to add... .

I'm firmly in the camp with the others... .that you should still pursue time with her... .but... .   DROP THE DATE LABEL

Last though for now... .this is really curious behavior... .I think you focus on the good part... which is you can spend time together without fighting. 

Hang in there!   

[Grey Kitty]

I'm firmly in the camp with the others... .that you should still pursue time with her... .but... .   DROP THE DATE LABEL

I don't know what "others" are saying... .but I've been strongly suggesting not to PURSUE time with her (sans kids). Don't ask for it. Don't try to schedule it. Don't think of pressuring her for it.

What I would encourage is taking advantage of those times when they appear and your wife is receptive to them. If you are with the kids in her house and she invites you to stay longer... .or if you are with the kids, but suddenly they are all off bouncing on the trampolines, etc.

And if your wife actually asks you for some private time, that is a different thing entirely.

[formflier]

 

Yes... .important nuance. 

One question... was your wife fine with going out to dinner... .but not calling it a date?

I know that we are splitting hairs here... but... .I think it's important to find the "real" trigger... .because there is a pattern.

I was under the impression the pattern was "calling it" a date... .if it is more accurate that the pattern is pursue private time and the dysregs... .then that is what it is.

[123Phoebe]

Yes... .important nuance. 

One question... was your wife fine with going out to dinner... .but not calling it a date?

I know that we are splitting hairs here... but... .I think it's important to find the "real" trigger... .because there is a pattern.

I was under the impression the pattern was "calling it" a date... .if it is more accurate that the pattern is pursue private time and the dysregs... .then that is what it is.

For all we know, "dinner" to her might've meant time to talk over divorce stuff.  If that's what she had on her mind, then a "date" wouldn't really seem appropriate.

Maroon, your wife seems to flip-flop-fast from idealization/devaluation, push/pull, black & white thinking, abandonment/engulfment fears.

Unless someone has a more plausible explanation, the only thing that makes sense is control... .

Or lack of control over her own emotions, which have nothing to do with you personally, only that you're the one she sees as triggering her up.

[formflier]

Maroon, your wife seems to flip-flop-fast from idealization/devaluation, push/pull, black & white thinking, abandonment/engulfment fears.

So... .I agree.  So... .in on instance a card is presented... .and for some reason she flopped to the "dark side" and rejected.

Next time the card is presented... .a very intimate... romantic night.

You would think that a card like that is "always" black... .but it obviously is not. 

So... .if we agree that there is a rapid cycling... .how does that affect the "tactics" that Maroon uses.

Is there an option to keep things "bland" for a while... .to try and not force a cycle?

[MaroonLiquid]

Yes... .important nuance. 

One question... was your wife fine with going out to dinner... .but not calling it a date?

I know that we are splitting hairs here... but... .I think it's important to find the "real" trigger... .because there is a pattern.

I was under the impression the pattern was "calling it" a date... .if it is more accurate that the pattern is pursue private time and the dysregs... .then that is what it is.

For all we know, "dinner" to her might've meant time to talk over divorce stuff.  If that's what she had on her mind, then a "date" wouldn't really seem appropriate.

Maroon, your wife seems to flip-flop-fast from idealization/devaluation, push/pull, black & white thinking, abandonment/engulfment fears.

Unless someone has a more plausible explanation, the only thing that makes sense is control... .

Or lack of control over her own emotions, which have nothing to do with you personally, only that you're the one she sees as triggering her up.

Pheebs!  I think you are on to something there.  I noticed our daughter saying something to one of my kids that she "only gets "mad" when dad is here".  She even told me the kids said that about two months ago.  This makes sense!

[123Phoebe]

So... .if we agree that there is a rapid cycling... .how does that affect the "tactics" that Maroon uses.

Is there an option to keep things "bland" for a while... .to try and not force a cycle?

I really don't like to think in terms of "tactics", it sounds controlling   I have no control over what my guy does or what Maroon's wife does or doesn't do.

If my guy told me that he wanted to end the relationship, I would be taken aback.  I would tell him (in so many words) that I am taken aback and didn't see it coming, that I wish it weren't so.  Is there something he feels we could work on together in order to stay?  No?  Okay, hmmm... .  Huh.  I will not stand in the way of him pursuing what's important in his life.  If leaving me is what will make him feel happy, then that's the way it goes and I'd have to accept it.  I might not like it, but detachment would begin.  I cannot be in a relationship with someone who threatens to end it over and over again.

[KateCat]

Maroon, how did the kids' previous dad lose the title of ":)ad?" I know you've said he is seriously delinquent in support payments. Did he also relinquish his parental rights?

If yes, I have no more thoughts about him. If no, what else is there to the story? Have you ever spoken to him privately?

Could any type of pattern of push-pull be repeating itself now with you in his place?

When I worked in my county's "child support enforcement" office, I don't remember seeing too many cases where a man had been married to the mother of his children long enough to produce three children and then willingly walked away. (Unless he walked away a broken man.)

Does he matter to this story at all?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

I really don't like to think in terms of "tactics", it sounds controlling   

Yeah... .I need to find a different word... .it's so hard to get rid of that thinking

tactics vs strategy

battles vs war

To be clear... .a tactic is how we present ourselves... .the one thing I like is that it denotes a deliberate choice of how to act.  A military guy will analyze the situation... .think about the desired outcome... .think through all his  training... .and "poof" out comes a tactic for the best chance of attaining the desired outcome.

To me... .seems perfect for BPD land... .but... .for non military types out there... .I need to find other ways to connect or express my thoughts... .

[123Phoebe]

I really don't like to think in terms of "tactics", it sounds controlling  

Yeah... .I need to find a different word... .it's so hard to get rid of that thinking

tactics vs strategy

battles vs war

To be clear... .a tactic is how we present ourselves... .the one thing I like is that it denotes a deliberate choice of how to act.  A military guy will analyze the situation... .think about the desired outcome... .think through all his  training... .and "poof" out comes a tactic for the best chance of attaining the desired outcome.

To me... .seems perfect for BPD land... .but... .for non military types out there... .I need to find other ways to connect or express my thoughts... .

FF   I'm a girl and am going to think things "normal guys" do and say are controlling and out there at times!  Even when they're not, the might strike me as such.  My issue.

Sometimes, strategies aren't the answer.  A boundary isn't a strategy.  Sometimes our boundaries might produce a desired outcome from another, but they aren't designed to do that, they're to protect our values, producing better mental health and safety for our own well being.  Which in turn, enables us to be more clearheaded and present for our loved ones.

[formflier]

Sometimes, strategies aren't the answer.  A boundary isn't a strategy.  

Exactly!... .a specific boundary would be a tactic!  You've got it... .!  You've passed formflier's basic training and are ready for advanced military training!     

The point of tactics to strategy... .is that strategy is big picture.  So... step back and figure out the big picture... ."I would like to save this marriage"... .then... you figure out "tactics" to support that strategy.

    

[MaroonLiquid]

Kate, I will answer your question in detail later this evening.

My wife called a few minutes ago and we talked a bunch about finances (hers and what she learned in her class this evening) and I validated those things.  After talking about college for the kids and stuff, she then asked if I could still watch the kids when she goes out of town in three weeks.  I said that was my plan and she said, "Well, in light of where we are, I wanted to make sure and would understand if you didn't want to."  I told her that I made it very clear last night where I stood and that a "piece of paper" doesn't change what I want or how I feel.  She asked if I minded if we could get that "ironed out" to ease her mind and I said sure, I can stop by and we could get that taken care of and then watch a movie if she had time.  She said that she had some things to do to get ready for a "house inspection" later this week and didn't know if she would have time to watch a movie.  I offered to help so that she could get it done faster and then relax.  She said, "You are welcome to come over but you don't have to help.  It isn't your responsibility."  I said, "I know, but I am offering."  She said she really appreciated it and told her I would see her in a few minutes.  She said, "Ok."  I will NOT discuss our r/s!  Lord knows!   . Pray for me!

[Stalwart]

Maroon I can so clearly see your vision for your future together or should I say perhaps your strategy in keeping with the current context. It's an admirable vision and I can so feel it's the path you want to take and hope for.

Question? What is her vision of her future? Have you asked and explored it from her thoughts and perspective?

[MaroonLiquid]

Maroon I can so clearly see your vision for your future together or should I say perhaps your strategy in keeping with the current context. It's an admirable vision and I can so feel it's the path you want to take and hope for.

Question? What is her vision of her future? Have you asked and explored it from her thoughts and perspective?

When she isn't dysregulated, we have the same vision and goals.  Have for over 6 years... .

[KateCat]

Well, I'll be darned.

Is she able to explain the part that the divorce action plays in this vision?

[MaroonLiquid]

Well, I'll be darned.

Is she able to explain the part that the divorce action plays in this vision?

Do pigs fly?

I think I need the Magic Borderline Ball to give me the answer... .   

[KateCat]

 

[formflier]

I think I need the Magic Borderline Ball to give me the answer... .   

[MaroonLiquid]

So last night, I went over to my wife's and we had a great evening.  I made sure to not bring up our r/s, but instead enjoy the time I had with her and the kids.  When I arrived at her house, my wife and I went out in the backyard and let the dogs run around and we spent time looking at the stars as the sky was clear.  I showed her the different constellations and planets that we could see.  She wrapped her arms around me and gave me a kiss and a few minutes later I put my arms around her and hugged her from behind as she drew close.  It was very romantic.  We then went inside and my oldest son wanted to show me some things on a video game he was playing and a video on youtube he found.  After that, I commented to my wife how good it is that him and I are bonding again.  She agreed and said that she has been waiting for that and that he needs it.  I had fun with my daughters also as we were all laughing and cutting up.  She was folding clothes at this point, and as we always did while living together, I helped her to get them done faster.  She then showed me her new clothes she bought and validated how good they looked on her and that she did a good job picking them out.  She then showed me some of the work she needed to get done on the house and there is a small patch (2" x 2" square) that needs to be done on a wall where a towel rack pulled out of the wall.  I asked if she knew how to do it and she said she wasn't real good at it (she isn't but can do it if she needed to).  I told her I could do that for her and she said I didn't have to.  I told her I knew that I didn't have to, but was offering and she said that would be good if I didn't mind.  I told her I would come over when she was done with work and would get it done for her.  We talked about the week I am staying with the kids and then watched a movie in her room.  :)uring the movie, we started to "make out" and then after a while, we had sex.  I spent the night with her and we cuddled throughout the night.  As I left her house to go back to my apartment this morning and get ready for work, she kissed me and told me to text when I got to work.  I thought it was a good evening and was proud of myself that I didn't approach any subject regarding our r/s as that would have probably ruined the evening.  The weird thing is I'm not sure they know she filed.  :)on't know why, just don't think they know.

Anyway, to answer a question KateCat had... .

Maroon, how did the kids' previous dad lose the title of ":)ad?" I know you've said he is seriously delinquent in support payments. Did he also relinquish his parental rights?

 

Backstory on "sperm donor"... .I knew my wife and her ex for about 7 years before we got married (went to same church).  Because my ex and I had girls that were the same age as their youngest, they spent a lot of time together and we had dinner over at their house a bunch.  He was a recurringly unemployed "home repair man" who rarely worked during their marriage and he always had excuses why he didn't.  In the 7 years I knew them, he did two jobs and neither time did them right.  I think he purposefully sabotaged jobs so that he didn't have to work.  At the end when she kicked him out, he was working as a foreman for a well known home builder.  We had a hurricane come through and it kept most people from work for at least a week.  For weeks after that, he would leave home and go to work but never being paid.  My wife would ask him where his paycheck was and he would say they were making a mistake.  After being two paychecks behind, she called his boss and asked why he wasn't being paid.  He said, "Ms. Ex-husband, I don't know how to tell you this, but we fired him a week before the hurricane because he was stealing materials from us.  He had a truck bed full of mulch delivered to their house and told my wife that it was extra and that they said it was ok because they knew they needed it for their flower beds.  He also stole a sump pump from them and my wife and I found it in their garage (we were dating and helped her pack and go through everything) when she moved out of their house as it was being foreclosed on because he refused to sign the papers for it to be sold (which he agreed to during their divorce).  I know all this about his job (not just from my wife) because he admitted the everything about being fired to all them men at church the night she kicked him out at our men's group meeting.  He said he was going to live at his mom's house.  She filed a few days after that as she had problems with him using drugs among other things.  She was done at that point.  He never relinquished his parental rights, but my wife and I always talked about me adopting them.  He told my wife in front of me about 4 years ago at a chils support hearing, "Your husband works, so he can take care of them, and therefore you don't need me or my money."  Honestly, I wanted to choke the ever living s*it out of him"  I pay $1400 in CS on my biological children and have since the day my ex and I separated.  In 6 years since their divorce, he has seen them for 1 hour and never paid child support.  The ridiculous thing is he pays nothing by choice, but was able to go to court and have his child support reduced.  WTH?  How does that work?  Our system is grand... .The court I'm in, the judge actually sent a guy to jail for "overpaying child support"!

If yes, I have no more thoughts about him. If no, what else is there to the story? Have you ever spoken to him privately?  

He actually followed me to work one morning when my wife and I were dating right before their divorce was final and threatened me.  He isn't scary, but I don't trust the guy.

Could any type of pattern of push-pull be repeating itself now with you in his place?

When I worked in my county's "child support enforcement" office, I don't remember seeing too many cases where a man had been married to the mother of his children long enough to produce three children and then willingly walked away. (Unless he walked away a broken man.)

Does he matter to this story at all?

 

My wife always let him in on the kids schedules and when their "functions" were as she would CC me on emails and show me texts she had with him.  He chose not to attend, call them or contact them.  About two years ago (after not seeing them but for an hour at a fast food restaurant in 4 years), he showed up at one of their events and asked to see them for the weekend.  I actually talked to him that day for about 5 minutes and told him, "they needed their father." and he said he wanted to "do the right thing".  The kids asked us what we thought and we both encouraged them it was their decision.  Our oldest daughter said she wasn't going, she didn't trust him and that her dad lived with her (me).  Her oldest son and youngest daughter decided to go and when they got there, he dropped the bomb on them that he was getting re-married.   They were heart broken and called us to come home.  I was pissed and so was she.  he brought them home later that night when they said they didn't want to be there any longer.  It is sad.  

My wife started to go off the deep end when, about a year and a hlaf ago, it was revealed at the time that our Pastor (we were really close to him and his wife and we were the Associate Pastors) was having an affair.  He was like our dad we never had and we loved him.  His wife was like our mom and it hit us very hard.  She even said that was the first Pastor she began to really trust and then boom.  She said it was another "father" in her life that lied to her.  That's when she changed churches, never gave me a choice and started to really make bad decisions and dysregulate almost all the time.  I hope this makes sense and gives you more insight.

[formflier]

 

So... .where there "hints" of issues with your wife before the pastor's affair?

Is that really when it started? 

Trying to wrap my head around this.

If you remember my story... .natural disaster... .we were out of our house for months.  That was the major trigger.

Looking back... I can now see "hints"... .

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

So... .where there "hints" of issues with your wife before the pastor's affair?

Is that really when it started? 

Trying to wrap my head around this.

If you remember my story... .natural disaster... .we were out of our house for months.  That was the major trigger.

Looking back... I can now see "hints"... .

FF

Absolutely there were hints that my wife had issues.  She even admitted to things early on in the r/s such as "being outside of her body" (what I now know is dissociation) and not being able to control her anger at the same time and abuse.  I told her the we would figure out why that happened and that we could see someone and we never did.  My fault there.  She is self aware of her issues at times.  Early on, she told me it feels like she is outside of her body when she gets really angry and she is saying to herself, "ML's wife, STOP DOING THAT!" but said she "can't stop it most of the time".  I believe our Pastor's affair was the major trigger for these last 9 months and the day we had our major blow-up, I told her I was too tired to go to the store and that started WWIII when she got home and ultimately led to her getting the other house. 

[Grey Kitty]

OK Maroon... .I hate to say "I told you so"... .oh never mind that. Everybody loves to say that, we just pretend that we don't to be polite.   

The pattern I've been pointing out to you seems to be playing out.

You can act like a husband and father to your wife, and she responds positively. Even acts like a wife (to the best of her ability). Last evening and last night was excellent that way!

You can use words to ask for it... .and she will reject you or dysregulate at you.

Keep walking this line--You seem to have figured it out. Yes, she will still have 'moments' even if you get it right... .but you have better tools to manage those now.


If I recall correctly, you have another ~week to sign the waiver of service... .or risk her choosing to have you served instead. Obviously, talk to a lawyer before you do anything... .and start working on your plans. Because this is a roadblock that is going to push you off the 'line' when your respond to it, whatever you do.

Here's one interesting idea--you might ask her if she is willing to put the divorce on hold for a year or two so you can keep her and her kids on your insurance.

Think about what you can say or offer for her.

If you are willing to accept a r/s with her where you don't live together, you spend some time with each other's kids, and occasionally end up having good times together alone... .without any real commitment on her part... .it may work for her too.

Unfortunately even asking for it and/or offering it is risky and potentially triggering. Best for you to think about how you can use the best tools to present it... .(Hmmm... .read up on D.E.A.R.M.A.N.)... .and pick a time when she's receptive.

[KateCat]

Thank you for filling in the details on the bio-father, Maroon. No wonder you are so dedicated to the kids!

 This is the true "deadbeat" type of child support dodger, it seems. Often, all they have to do is show proof of low reported earnings for a few years to escape most consequences of their selfishness. Sometimes a child support agency will succeed in tracking down and seizing assets, but not often. Usually they will put that new truck or boat in a girlfriend's name. Or their mother covers for them in similar ways. On rare occasions, lottery winnings or inheritance distributions can be intercepted. Not often income tax refunds, though, because they usually report "living on air." Sometimes they receive public assistance themselves. Often, just no consequences.

I'm so sorry the kids and your wife have experienced this.

ADDED, due to cross-posting: Grey Kitty's advice is . . . really . . . extraordinary. And here I will quote Darth Vader, because he doesn't get that many quotes: "You know it to be true."

[formflier]

 

I'm seeing next big step as talking to L... .and finding out if there are "consequences" for signing... .or not signing... .the waiver of service.

Then... .also ask.  If you don't sign... .will your wife most likely be involved in the decision to actually have you served... .or will lawyer she has hired... .most likely... .just go on about his business and do it.

Fork in road... .and we are guessing at disorder thinking here... .so... .all should be aware... these are educated guesses.

If she is serious... .it won't matter... .she will get you served.

If it is a trial balloon... .who knows what she will do.  Maybe not signing says... .in her mind... ."he wants me... .now I know".

Trial balloon and push pull I guess fall in same category... .

If it is just "bait" to see if you will get angry... react... do all that... .well... .not responding would seem to be best as well.

ok... .end of speculating for now.

Let's see what L says... .and we all know that if she is serious... she will eventually get him served.

[MaroonLiquid]

OK Maroon... .I hate to say "I told you so"... .oh never mind that. Everybody loves to say that, we just pretend that we don't to be polite.   

The pattern I've been pointing out to you seems to be playing out.

You can act like a husband and father to your wife, and she responds positively. Even acts like a wife (to the best of her ability). Last evening and last night was excellent that way!

You can use words to ask for it... .and she will reject you or dysregulate at you.

Keep walking this line--You seem to have figured it out. Yes, she will still have 'moments' even if you get it right... .but you have better tools to manage those now.

OK, OK, You were right!     This is very true.  Don't understand how she justifies that in her own mind and don't need to, but very true nonetheless... .

If I recall correctly, you have another ~week to sign the waiver of service... .or risk her choosing to have you served instead. Obviously, talk to a lawyer before you do anything... .and start working on your plans. Because this is a roadblock that is going to push you off the 'line' when your respond to it, whatever you do.

Here's one interesting idea--you might ask her if she is willing to put the divorce on hold for a year or two so you can keep her and her kids on your insurance.

Think about what you can say or offer for her.

If you are willing to accept a r/s with her where you don't live together, you spend some time with each other's kids, and occasionally end up having good times together alone... .without any real commitment on her part... .it may work for her too.

Unfortunately even asking for it and/or offering it is risky and potentially triggering. Best for you to think about how you can use the best tools to present it... .(Hmmm... .read up on D.E.A.R.M.A.N.)... .and pick a time when she's receptive.

I have made it very clear what I want.  I feel responding back is "telling her" that I am ok with the divorce.  Not being a jerk, but I do believe actions speak louder than words.  I will let this week play out some more.  She knows I have received them, so I'm not playing a "cat and mouse" game so to speak.

Thank you for filling in the details on the bio-father, Maroon. No wonder you are so dedicated to the kids!

No problem, and yes, he is a classic case... .It's disgusting actually.

 This is the true "deadbeat" type of child support dodger, it seems. Often, all they have to do is show proof of low reported earnings for a few years to escape most consequences of their selfishness. Sometimes a child support agency will succeed in tracking down and seizing assets, but not often. Usually they will put that new truck or boat in a girlfriend's name. Or their mother covers for them in similar ways. On rare occasions, lottery winnings or inheritance distributions can be intercepted. Not often income tax refunds, though, because they usually report "living on air." Sometimes they receive public assistance themselves. Often, just no consequences. [/quote]
Yeah, there is too many for the courts to deal with, and again, it's disgusting that they continue to let them get away with it.  There is no consequences except to the fathers who can afford it and do pay.  They make an example of them at times (like the one who overpayed and it was big news here).

I'm so sorry the kids and your wife have experienced this.

Thanks.  It's been a nightmare at times and going to court always was a trigger for my wife and rightfully so!

ADDED, due to cross-posting: Grey Kitty's advice is . . . really . . . extraordinary. And here I will quote Darth Vader, because he doesn't get that many quotes: "You know it to be true."

Yeah, it is and yeah I do... .

I'm seeing next big step as talking to L... .and finding out if there are "consequences" for signing... .or not signing... .the waiver of service.

As I said, I'm going to see how the next couple of days go, but I will see a lawyer.  I feel signing is saying the opposite of what I have told her the last two nights. 

Then... .also ask.  If you don't sign... .will your wife most likely be involved in the decision to actually have you served... .or will lawyer she has hired... .most likely... .just go on about his business and do it.

I'm sure she will have to give the ok.  I'm sure she didn't pay a big retainer down or anything... .

Fork in road... .and we are guessing at disorder thinking here... .so... .all should be aware... these are educated guesses.

If she is serious... .it won't matter... .she will get you served.

If it is a trial balloon... .who knows what she will do.  Maybe not signing says... .in her mind... ."he wants me... .now I know".

I know I don't know this for sure, but I still don't believe she wants a divorce.  I know how crazy she gets when she is dysregulated, especially thinking about her "out of body experience" comment she made years ago.

Let's see what L says... .and we all know that if she is serious... she will eventually get him served.

True... .And frankly, I'm not worried about any of it.  I have peace regarding this whole thing... .

[Stalwart]

Maroon I can so clearly see your vision for your future together or should I say perhaps your strategy in keeping with the current context. It's an admirable vision and I can so feel it's the path you want to take and hope for.

Question? What is her vision of her future? Have you asked and explored it from her thoughts and perspective?

When she isn't dysregulated, we have the same vision and goals.  Have for over 6 years... .

Not so certain I can understand this maroon. She's not living with you, is non-repondant when you talk about the future citing; "You know we are getting a divorce? Appraising and apparently in progress of selling the house (perhaps.) Filing the papers... .

So what is her vision of moving forward without you after the divorce she is apparently 'saying' she is set on having? They all seem to be regulated, systematic and rationally thought-out actions on a plan or set course. Not really actions of a dysregulated person shsooting from the hip.

If this is 'bait' you two should think of taking a partnership in professional tuna fishing, you'd clean up with her on the lines.

[123Phoebe]

I know I don't know this for sure, but I still don't believe she wants a divorce.  I know how crazy she gets when she is dysregulated, especially thinking about her "out of body experience" comment she made years ago.

After talking about college for the kids and stuff, she then asked if I could still watch the kids when she goes out of town in three weeks.  I said that was my plan and she said, "Well, in light of where we are, I wanted to make sure and would understand if you didn't want to."  I told her that I made it very clear last night where I stood and that a "piece of paper" doesn't change what I want or how I feel.  She asked if I minded if we could get that "ironed out" to ease her mind and I said sure, I can stop by and we could get that taken care of and then watch a movie if she had time.

Your situation is really confusing to me, almost like a soap opera.  Was your wife dysregulated on the phone when she asked that things get ironed out and all that other stuff?  You said sure, you'd stop by and get that taken care of.

What am I missing here, other than the make-out session?  

[formflier]

 

"ironed out"

What was your understanding of what would be "ironed out"?

[MaroonLiquid]

Appraising and apparently in progress of selling the house (perhaps.)

This was the house with her husband that was foreclosed on six years ago... .

Your situation is really confusing to me, almost like a soap opera.  

I hear ya!  Why do you think I'm not worked up or worrying about any of this.  Honestly, I have been less emotionally involved in her "stuff" since I got the papers than before.  

Was your wife dysregulated on the phone when she asked that things get ironed out and all that other stuff?  

Not at all.  In fact, we were talking and laughing and I validated the stuff she was talking about and it was pleasant... . 

You said sure, you'd stop by and get that taken care of.

What am I missing here, other than the make-out session?  

You aren't missing anything.  You have all the same facts I do... .

"ironed out"

What was your understanding of what would be "ironed out"?

The plans/schedule for the kids, what they had going on, getting them where they need to go, and how that coincided with my schedule... .

[formflier]

 

Maroon,

This certainly is a curious set of events... .I commend you for how you are handling it.

My last bit of concern is about the L.  Best to meed sooner rather than later.  I would really like you to have several days to process things that the L may tell you before you have the deadline for the waiver of service.

FF

[123Phoebe]

Your situation is really confusing to me, almost like a soap opera.  

I hear ya!  Why do you think I'm not worked up or worrying about any of this.  Honestly, I have been less emotionally involved in her "stuff" since I got the papers than before.  

Okay, so can you describe your New Beginnings & Boundaries?

[Grey Kitty]

Maroon, I see your best bet to salvage something of a marriage and take care of yourself to require you work two paths:

1. Find a lawyer and make sure you are protecting yourself properly. [Legal issues sound pretty straightforward, but we aren't the people to assess that]

2. "Negotiate" with your wife.

If I recall correctly, you have another ~week to sign the waiver of service... .or risk her choosing to have you served instead. Obviously, talk to a lawyer before you do anything... .and start working on your plans. Because this is a roadblock that is going to push you off the 'line' when your respond to it, whatever you do.

Here's one interesting idea--you might ask her if she is willing to put the divorce on hold for a year or two so you can keep her and her kids on your insurance.

Think about what you can say or offer for her.

If you are willing to accept a r/s with her where you don't live together, you spend some time with each other's kids, and occasionally end up having good times together alone... .without any real commitment on her part... .it may work for her too.

Unfortunately even asking for it and/or offering it is risky and potentially triggering. Best for you to think about how you can use the best tools to present it... .(Hmmm... .read up on D.E.A.R.M.A.N.)... .and pick a time when she's receptive.

I have made it very clear what I want.  I feel responding back is "telling her" that I am ok with the divorce.  Not being a jerk, but I do believe actions speak louder than words.  I will let this week play out some more.  She knows I have received them, so I'm not playing a "cat and mouse" game so to speak.

Maroon, here is where I hope you can take your 'game' up to an even higher level.

First, I believe 100% you are stating what you want clearly to her. I also believe you are not playing cat and mouse games with her.

But stating your position alone is nowhere near accomplishing what you want. I'm gonna bet you want your wife to understand your position when you state it in clear English to her. DUDE. That hasn't worked for the last 9 months. What makes you think it is gonna start now?

I personally hate playing manipulative games and am generally terrible at them. It is incredibly rare for me to suggest anything vaguely resembles playing games... .but I'm also a pragmatist. You've seen things you can do/say (and not do/say) which give your wife an opportunity to make choices that help your marriage. If you want to call it playing games to  act that way and lay good choices in front of her in a way that she might actually pick them up... .call it playing games or being manipulative... .but do it for your r/s and your kids and her kids if it is worth it to you.

She sent you those papers to sign, so the ball ****IS**** in your court. Own that, and make a choice based on your values. I see options for you:

1. Sign the papers. (without saying anything) -- Tacit approval of the divorce.

2. Don't sign the papers (without saying anything) -- Passive/aggressively fighting the divorce, somewhat provocative. She might have you served by law enforcement next.

3. Before the deadline, have some discussion about it with her.

This was what I was suggesting... .with the recommendation that you do two things... .

A. Figure out what you want--do you even want to live separately, co-parent with her, stay married, and be given the sort of mixed messages and dysreguations you've been getting for longer? Are there other options and possibilities you would consider?

(We really can't help you figure out what you want, other than pointing out if you are saying you want something that is 98% certainly beyond your wife's capacity.)

B. Once you know what things you want and what things you would accept... .make a very careful plan of what you are going to present to her and how. Use the best tools to communicate effectively with a pwBPD.

We are here for you to help you on this part.

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .