I think this is a situation for couples counseling and also invidual counseling for your H if he's willing to do it. You may be thinking he's not the problem- his mother is- but the behaviors you see as "not normal" for him are the "normal" he grew up with and so, he may not be able to see them as a problem as well as you can.

There's also the "Karpman triangle" dynamics. If you push against his mother, he may have a tendency to see her as a victim and step in to protect her. Chances are, he's behaving like his father- who role modeled this behavior- and a father is a main role model to a child.

When you say he didn't speak to his mother when it was just the two of you, it's possible that she's invested in the role of grandmother. My BPD mother doesn't show attachment to me but she wants the role of grandmother and so shows interest in that. Seeing that her connection to the other grandchildren involved boundaries- you and your H are another chance for that.

Your H may also have hope of a better relationship with her. We kids, growing up, can get the message that our mother's issues are somehow our fault, that if only we are good enough, we can fix this situation. I also hoped that by doing so, this could be achieved but the limits to a relationship with my mother involve her BPD.

If we learn certain behaviors growing up, we can learn different ones but it's a process, and it can take some time. Saying "no" to my BPD mother is difficult due to her reaction. It may not make sense that a grown adult is fearful of their mother but we weren't always grown adults- we were children and afraid of her reactio. We can rationalize these feelings now but it's a learning process.

This has also happened to me. My second marriage was in my 40’s with a man in his 50’s. We just got divorced after 8 years… the last three years he kept attempting to kill himself and blamed me because of small things: I got a text from someone at 8pm (he refused to look at it when I tried to be transparent about it), I took off my wedding ring to knead dough (he said it meant i was leaving him), so many other eggshells. He told me about two things that happened as a teenager that he never told anyone else. But the people involved he remained close to. Before we got married he said he wanted to save sex for after marriage because we were Catholic. I didn’t care but agreed for his sake. Then after we got married he kept rejecting me. Told me I was too fat, he’s too stressed, the chores weren’t done, can’t do it in the morning, can’t at night, can’t on an empty stomach…. Etc… always excuses. We went to 5 marriage counselors/sex therapists. (We are both therapists… he was a new one). When the sex therapist gave us the assignment of scheduled sex and I need to initiate…. I tried one night and had to stop after 15 seconds because he seemed off. So six month later I discovered he was telling this therapists that I sexually abused him. He then kept saying he didn’t believe my own story of being raped (once in my life by a known person). He said he thought it probably happened but that I wanted it. That’s when I realized he was probably projecting…. None of his “sexual abuse” stories were real. They were situations he engaged in and then felt bad about… so he created lies that protect his ego. I then found out their devout Catholic was creating fake Facebook pages where he could indulge in communities of satanic ritual, demon worship, witchcraft…. He was running up credit card bills and ordering statues of Baphomet and Lilith to be delivered to a public locker so I would not see them….

He was abandoned as a child. His teenage mother gave him to his father’s parents to raise when he was 6. But beyond that…. The sexual abuse stories all happened when he was 12-18. One by his grandmother, two by his mother’s sisters. He told one psychiatrist during one of his many hospitalizations that he kept attempting suicide so I would not leave him but he doesn’t actually love me and thought I had molested him.

I do not think those stories were true. I think the way he kept dismissing MY actual experience was a projection and his telling others that I abused him made me realize how easily he uses others to gain pity with new sources of supply..

I don't even know where to start. When I feel we are making progress it takes two steps back.
Some back story, he rarely talked with his mother prior to us being together. Often spoke I'll of his mother, and I would be at her defence. I had no idea of her mental health, lack of boundaries, manipulations or lies at that point. I just knew she was a little quirky and none of her children had much to do with her. I started seeing the signs come out after we had a child and she began coming around way more. At one point telling my mom she was going to find a way to be at the birth, after being told no.

She has other grandkids that she has broken many "normal" boundaries with. At one point trying to pick one of them up from childcare after being told no, and losing the ability to ever babysit them. I don't think they have spoken clearly of this boundary, just avoid it from ever happening again. There are many instances thar came to that decision, not just that singular moment. She is often caught in lies, manipulation, and uses gifts as an alterior motive to get in the door. She has a history of going through men, moving around plenty, and never settling in one spot. Until now.
We recently moved, I left my entire support system. And she, without telling us, got a job and started renting here. This also means we will have to work together as we work in the same field. However, I will be her superior in this field. Making it extremely challenging as she is often fired for incompetence from previous jobs.
She mentioned buying a place a few months ago and I said we needed to make our boundaries clear. When she first came here it was to visit for a few weeks, then months, before ever getting a job. Often giving us money woo stories, and me being home with a baby was allowing full access as we likely wouldn't see her much once she moved onto the next place. Looking back this gave her a very unrealistic expectation of what living here would be.
We agreed expectations would be important but H always found excuses. It wasn't the right time, he wanted it to feel natural etc. It never happened. She has since bought a place and it caused a lot of tension between us. Again, I insisted boundaries would only be fair to her as her moving here was likely due to unrealistic expectations. Although we hadn't been making the same space and allowance for her visits once we realized it wasn't a quick visit. The boundaries were in my mind simple, healthy and normal. We are a busy family, (I have other children), we both work, and we are constantly running around for activities. Also mentioned we didn't have any intention of using her for childcare (we also have our reasons to not safely trust her with the kids, she cannot be trusted with animals let alone kids) He said she sounded upset and felt guilty. He then proceeded to take it out on me very negatively for days to follow. Calling me controlling and other quick remarks.
We saw her around town a few days after and everything was fine and normal. I pointed out how it was all normal, she was handling it well and how great it was. He then stated it didn't change how felt about doing it (guilty and mean). And again became negative with me.
I'm at a loss. I feel he is constantly on edge with her living here. He is always worried she is on the verge of a mental breakdown causing massive anxiety to him. He does not enjoy her company, but her best interest is far above his or our families best interest. He cannot tell her no, and if he does his behavior towards me changes even if I had no input on that no.
I know there is enmeshment happening, he was the only sibling left at home when his dad moved away. Leaving her to rely on him in unhealthy ways. Anytime she needs something she calls him, and since moving here it's often.
I have tried to explain how it's great to help but we also cannot be her go to contact for all needs/wants/rescuing. Her move here was full of expectations we have no intention to fill, but he is being pushed more and more to please her whims and wants.
The list really goes on and on of how she doesn't respect boundaries. She sees them as a challenge. Her behaviors can be very innaprotiate, trying to cuddle her adult son etc. It's just too much and I'm at my breaking point. I cannot live like this. My SIL doesn't talk to her at all because of her constant behavior. I don't want to get that far. But I feel my choices are let it all go, allow her to rule our lives and be miserable and resent H forever. Or let him resent me for what I think is healthy boundaries.
He does not see how much this has affected his entire life, and I was quite blind to it before her being around so long. Mind you, she was barely around most of his life prior to me coming around.
I just need help. How do I help him see this isn't normal? And get him to see him lashing out on my isn't directed at the right person?

Not sure I entirely follow all that.

Sad, but true - anyone who gets into a relationship with a pwBPD, and stays in one - that person has issues, I know do, so, yes, I can admit - if I have not worked on my own issues, I too would be a  ; however, I do feel now that I have worked through many of my own issues with my individual therapist, I am now a 





Well, for me, I was love(sex) bombed, and enjoyed it immensely.  I was a bit inexperienced, so I too read her wrong, as I didn't know how to read at the time for this one; however, the previous one was a little more obvious, so I left her.



I too feel as though I was groomed, the first was one was very maliciously intentional back in the 1990's - she was looking for a 'gravy train' - someone to take care of her.  However, the one I am currently married to was also very intentional; however, even though her behaviors were terroristic in nature; however, I did not see premeditation in her.

Thank you for sharing your observations, Kashi, as this resonates for me as well for both borderlines - it is very insightful.

hellosun,

   I'm glad I was able to make you      I find humor to be my 'go to' coping mechanism, even though I did not intend on being funny when I said that.    ;)

   You're quite welcome - let me know if you have any questions, and I will try to answer them.

 SD

I too found it interesting, and it is definitely unbalanced with the BPD from my own experience with two different borderlines. 

In the 'beginning' at least for the two romantic relationships I have experienced, there is love/sex bombing immediately from the first date on - so in a very distorted kind of way, they are making an 'investment' until you are hooked by making enormous love bank deposits, and when they perceive that you are 'hooked' then they will withdraw with entitlement that you 'owe me' for all of those deposits.  It starts off lopsided, at the time, as I was too naive to know anything about BPD, I did try to match their energy of the love bomb, and then they stop, but they expect you to still maintain that matching energy they have become accustomed to.  I'm a slow learner, and it took me way too much time to figure this out - decades.  However, now that I have this figured it out, I can manage the transactional reciprocity of the 'push-pull' dynamic that my own individual therapist calls it.

Regarding 'meets an emotional need'.  My personal observation is very similar to the parable that Forever Dad frequently shares of the endless pit, as I have felt that way in my acts of service to my wife.  My theory is that the endless 'acts of service' is actually a circumstantial manifestation of the symptom "Persistent feelings of emptiness" where the pwBPD demands more and more attention (entitlement) in order to fill the insatiable emptiness that they are experiencing; however, no matter how much I tried, I could not satisfy her, and within couple therapy on many occasions, I have commented, quipped, that my pwBPD was "unsatisfiable". 



I like the 'master - servant' analogy you implied, and sometimes it feels like a 'master - slave' as I have likened my acts of service to slavery to my wife, and I have called it 'servitude' in front of our couple's therapist, it wasn't received well by either by my wife or the therapist - so I have changed the way I speak on a full time basis and have changed it to 'lack of reciprocity', 'insufficient reciprocity', or something similar that is less triggering for her - yes, even though it is my most measures a 'success' my new way of talking to a normal person can still be perceived as 'walking on eggshells' as I have to modify the way I talk, so I do not trigger her.



Your describe you mom having comorbid NPD traits; whereas, my wife has comorbid OCPD baseline traits - so my wife does not manifest some of the traits in the same or similar manner as your mom in this aspect or in spending money unless her BPD is triggered, and then the BPD trait is limited to the episode which is temporary in nature induced by stress rather than the pervasive personality traits.  My wife, with her excessive devotion and preoccupation with others she wants to keep in her life (favorite person) will do something for someone else with fierce rigidity and stubbornness striving to do something perfectly so it has to be her way. 

This workaholism/perfectionist type attitude previously interfered with our family life to the point of neglecting me and our children at disordered level described by the following four OCPD symptoms "Excessive devotion to work and productivity (not due to financial necessity), resulting in neglect of leisure activities and friends"; "Preoccupation with details, rules, schedules, organization, and lists"; "A striving to do something perfectly that interferes with completion of the task" all combined with "Rigidity and stubbornness".

She has also corrected nearly all of her OCPD symptoms as well using 'wise mind' or a variation of it. 



My first individual therapist was joking with me that OCPD, when you read the symptoms of OCPD it is pretty much what an employer looks for in an employee.  It is the most common PD, yet the least treated - why?  Employers can take advantage of them as they follow rules and will do the extra mile and get the job done to near perfection - her OCPD is also what attracted me to her as well, as I personally value the non-disordered versions of these traits - I will start another thread on "BPD with OCPD comorbidity" on my observations and theories on this - as there are next to no articles on it, yet has a very high comorbidity depending on which NIH study is read (up to 50% for women and 42% for men).  As a result her employers overlooked her occasional BPD fueled outbursts (snapping, yelling, and splitting on coworkers when they did not follow the rules and adhered to 'moral values') because she is incredibly smart, or issued 'warnings' on these behaviors.

Previously she also expected everyone she dealt with to be this way too, and if they weren't - this created stress and anxiety then the BPD portion would reveal itself.



You are right we cannot change another person; however, we can ethically influence, persuade, and even manipulate the situation to induce change in a positive way - I did this under the supervision of a licensed supervisory level therapist.

You are absolutely right, I did change, in fact it has been a lot of change which will be a subject of a different thread as well as it is extensive.  After the previous couple's therapist intimated I was changing, my wife responded a certain way, and by doing some mini-tests to see if she could 'adapt or not' - this emboldened me to 'call her bluffs', implement a series of fair, firm and enforceable boundaries - this is half of the changes that worked.  The other half was changing the way I communicated which can be summarized as "stop arguing and start validating".  Of course this is oversimplified, as I did a bunch of 'trial and error' to see what worked and what didn't. 



Initially she didn't intuitively reciprocate when I first started to push back on excessive acts of service - she attempted/gestured suicide - it took nearly two years of therapy to come to a point where it is no longer disordered; however, she is still pushing up against the boundary (at the urging of the couple's therapist) so I am doing some compromises here on the boundary, but maintaining the majority of it.

Thank you for taking the time to respond, it is greatly appreciated.

I guess I'll just reply to myself

As sad as it is, take this as a surprising win. At least initially, I'd be wary of "mission creep" with regards to the custody stipulation. Get that signed by a judge before she changes her mind. This time is unknown. Engaging her to encourage more time with the kids will come later. I won't comment upon that now other than to say now is not the time as she's in crisis. Settle everything legally in the meantime. Address co-parenting later when you're all legally protected.